On September 16 2011 10:15 the p00n wrote: I have a 100% winrate with this on ladder against Protoss so far. Here is a small replay pack I composed (I have more replays, but they are kind of the same, so I've picked a diverse amount of strategies).
All the replays are from ladder:
1x vs. 3gate stargate into DTs on shakuras, opponent is GM league 1x vs. some robo opening on xel naga caverns, opponent is GM league 1x vs. some other robo opening on nerazim crypt, opponent high master 1x vs 4gate, opponent is high master
[url blocked]
EDIT: This is not a 'standard' thor rush; there is an extra tank and a transition.
@7:00 15 marines 1 tank 1 thor + autorepair scvs starport going up
Hello everyone,
I have played a ladder game against a grandmaster terran (AlwayzLame or something; he was french, EU server) who used a build against me which left me wondering how to counter it. He told me he had 100% winrate with it against any Protoss not rushing for DTs and he claimed that 1 base stargate builds would lose hard to it as well (which was my first question).
Now I know what you're thinking: yaddayaddaya, where's the replay, there better be a replay... well, there is, sort of: I was playing at an internet cafe and was so intrigued by the build that I e-mailed the specifics to my own e-mail from the internet cafe, except for the replay. Not forget - it just totally didn't cross my mind to also send the replay.
However, because I don't want to be Artosis or one of those guys talking about nearly-impossible-to-counter-strategies without replay support, I have reconstructed the build in a single player game against the computer.
12rax, reactor after first marine, then non-stop marines 13gas 17depot, depots when necessary from here on 18gas factory at 100gas, techlab and armory immediately after siege tank starport when enough resources grab 8 scvs or so, autorepair, follow on thor
I went for a 2gate robo expansion with a fast observer, the map was xel naga caverns. My opponent did the build above, with the small exception of making a 2nd marine and then canceling it so my probe saw a 2nd marine making instead of the reactor before it was chased out of the base. I scout the armory and chrono out immortals, having 2 by the time his push comes with a measly gateway army consisting of mostly zealots. I throw up my guardian shield, but 2 seconds later my army is gone except for the immortals which I'm forced to retreat. The game ends here.
I was wondering if there was an expansion build which would be safe against this (as I contemplated canceling my expansion, but that would probably make me lose to his 1 base if he waits until he has a certain number of banshees... I don't know, you tell me?).
On September 13 2011 09:14 Kornholi0 wrote: Doesn't standard thor rush autolose to micro? (Don't focus fire the thor, kill the marines and tanks and then kill the thor with zealots).
I don't see this breaking the game any time soon and I see 1/1/1 being way more effective.
Hello,
there are simply too many units and he told me he transitions into a 1-1-1 after this (which my reconstructed replay also shows). Don't forget there is an unsieged tank too, which also benefits from repair and does nearly 25 dps to stalkers.
This is purely theorycraft, but as it's simply mass reactored unupgraded marines being sent down to you, couldn't you do an excessive amount of kiting with a good number stalkers from his main to yours, after doing a 1gate FE, and then chronoing out 1 or 2 immortals to attempt to deal with the tank/thor?
The key weakness of this is that he's -just- on a single reactors worth of marines for a fairly long time. You have time to be aggressive, since he's immobile, and it takes a -relatively- long time til the thor pops. If all he has is a crapload of marines and a siege tank that's decently easy to kite, you can do some decent economic damage.
Additionally, it seems like this -might- be simply possible to break by forcing yourself up his ramp with a few stalkers early and then 4gate Zealot in HuK's style. This is definitely a risk though because of derp terran scouting, since he could have another 2 rax behind the bunker and I feel like there's very little way to safely differentiate between this and a nonstandard 1-1-1 or even a 3rax, which would both absolutely roll mass stalkers.
On September 13 2011 23:18 Sina92 wrote: if you're a toss you can't stop it unless u blindcounter it. same goes for most terran 1base all ins.
That's not really true at all, but it does suck to have yet another allin to deal with. As with all the terran early allins you can either sniff it out early and crush it on the map or delay as long as possible on 2 base with cut probes.
I'm a Z and haven't played in a long time, but wouldn't a gasless expand pan out well against this ? I know it's quite risky, but you can scout the double gas (maybe reactor) which means usually no rax pressure.
To my eyes, the Protoss have a «no expanding» timing between the 5 and 7 minutes mark as Terrans 1 base play hits just when your expand has yelded exactly nothing :/
On September 13 2011 23:18 Sina92 wrote: if you're a toss you can't stop it unless u blindcounter it. same goes for most terran 1base all ins.
That's not really true at all, but it does suck to have yet another allin to deal with. As with all the terran early allins you can either sniff it out early and crush it on the map or delay as long as possible on 2 base with cut probes.
how do you scout this then? best way to hold this is by going for twilight tech, but the only way to scout it is trough robo tech
On September 13 2011 23:18 Sina92 wrote: if you're a toss you can't stop it unless u blindcounter it. same goes for most terran 1base all ins.
That's not really true at all, but it does suck to have yet another allin to deal with. As with all the terran early allins you can either sniff it out early and crush it on the map or delay as long as possible on 2 base with cut probes.
how do you scout this then? best way to hold this is by going for twilight tech, but the only way to scout it is trough robo tech
I don't really see how either of those statements is true. Pretty sure all the toss one base plays do well against this tc or not. Also it is usually a terrible idea to grab a quick tc vs a 1 base terran.
Not to mention that the very common 1 gate robo scouts it with plenty of time to spare.
If you would like to test some of this out pm me. I have NA EU.
Well the 'standard' 1/1/1 usually makes 3 marines before reactor. Getting only a single marine before reactor seems absurd. Can't you chrono out your initial zealot/stalker to scout out this weakness, slow his build, and even kill scvs? Also, as a terran who used to do 1-base thor-raven-marine builds, I found myself needing a blind bunker to survive aggressive warpgate attacks, which hit just before the thor arrived, and that was even *with* constant marine production.
Can you expand vs this? I dont know, but I'd suggest aggressive 3-4 warpgates intending to do damage, and add a robo too if he stays 1-base. As long as you dont get contained at your ramp (kite him and set up good flanks if he tries to cross map), you should be able to expand quite late and still be ahead.
On September 13 2011 23:37 mr_tolkien wrote: I'm a Z and haven't played in a long time, but wouldn't a gasless expand pan out well against this ? I know it's quite risky, but you can scout the double gas (maybe reactor) which means usually no rax pressure.
To my eyes, the Protoss have a «no expanding» timing between the 5 and 7 minutes mark as Terrans 1 base play hits just when your expand has yelded exactly nothing :/
without gas and cybernatic core/ wrapgate research will take a long long time, protoss has only probes to scout and zealot to fight. It's impossible to hold attack like 2 rax openning or and aggressive marine marauder openning, they will just kite your zealot all day and win
On September 14 2011 00:00 gogogadgetflow wrote: Well the 'standard' 1/1/1 usually makes 3 marines before reactor. Getting only a single marine before reactor seems absurd. Can't you chrono out your initial zealot/stalker to scout out this weakness, slow his build, and even kill scvs? Also, as a terran who used to do 1-base thor-raven-marine builds, I found myself needing a blind bunker to survive aggressive warpgate attacks, which hit just before the thor arrived, and that was even *with* constant marine production.
Can you expand vs this? I dont know, but I'd suggest aggressive 3-4 warpgates intending to do damage, and add a robo too if he stays 1-base. As long as you dont get contained at your ramp (kite him and set up good flanks if he tries to cross map), you should be able to expand quite late and still be ahead.
And if the Terran is doing something standard instead of an all-in, your one-base play puts you massively behind. Terran is pretty good at holding all-ins since Command Centres can be floated away and they're good at holding ramps with the use of bunkers etc.
Plus, even if you hold the original push you still have a second wave 111 push coming out afterwards. I don't think this is as easy to hold as you're making out, even with a one-base play.
EDIT:
It is fairly standard to get a "blind bunker" when teching hard as Terran, I think.
I dont think its easy to hold, and in general there are numerous tech builds for terran that are much harder to defend than to execute, which is why putting on pressure before the tech comes into play seems to be the best play. Ideally, if terran is doing something standard, he won't show weakness early and so protoss will 3gate-robo or something, contain terran and expand.
Others say you should expand earlier, 1-gate robo or something, problem being these seem to outright die to other builds :/ .
This build is actually strong against all match ups in High Diamond/Low Master... Ive only played 4 games with it. But so far so good. The hardest was against a zerg, I feel a good zerg whos not just power droning would prolly crush it though... Ill keep on testing it throughout the day.
So far it just ass rapes toss... Forcefields are absolutly useless as well, the Thor just crushes them like godzilla crushes houses.
On September 13 2011 23:28 Sea_Food wrote: More zealots and immortals, less stalkers (dont make more than 1) less sentries (dont make more than 2.)
Althou that is the key of holding every terran rush atm.
this seems to be the best advice ive seen so far. do a huk 1gate expand then just pump zealots and you should have a fair chance against this. and yeah dont auto target the thor, last time this happened to me i killed everything but the thor and had to surround it with probes and warp in more units to take it down. it reminded me on WC3 cause i kept trying to get the surround with the probes as the thor was juking left and right. I also lost my expo twice to this and still won so it seems to set the terran back a ton if their initial attack doesnt kill you outright (like most terran all ins obviously)
On September 13 2011 23:28 Sea_Food wrote: More zealots and immortals, less stalkers (dont make more than 1) less sentries (dont make more than 2.)
Althou that is the key of holding every terran rush atm.
this seems to be the best advice ive seen so far. do a huk 1gate expand then just pump zealots and you should have a fair chance against this. and yeah dont auto target the thor, last time this happened to me i killed everything but the thor and had to surround it with probes and warp in more units to take it down. it reminded me on WC3 cause i kept trying to get the surround with the probes as the thor was juking left and right. I also lost my expo twice to this and still won so it seems to set the terran back a ton if their initial attack doesnt kill you outright (like most terran all ins obviously)
That sounds like it would work, but bear in mind that whatever build you go has to work equally well (or at least passably well) against other builds that scout the same as this one until it can get a good scout off. How do you differentiate this from marine/tank/banshee allin in time? 2 sentries and 1 stalker seems like it might just lose to 2 banshees, but I'm not sure.
EPT
