EPTOn September 14 2011 07:35 Artunit wrote:
Then if so how can you deal with banshees?
Then if so how can you deal with banshees?
Kill everything but the banshees then warp in stalkers after you've cleared out the ground.
[H] How to beat this T build, PvT GM league - Page 4
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Kill everything but the banshees then warp in stalkers after you've cleared out the ground. | ||
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DoctorFunk
160 Posts
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RedMosquito
United States280 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On September 14 2011 08:11 Blazinghand wrote: Whitewing and Mewo both suggested reactive stalker warpins: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265049¤tpage=2#24 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265049¤tpage=2#25 I disagree. Although I wouldn't rule out early pressure in general, Terran's ability to scout and make bunkers is pretty strong. The 4 warpgate rush is eminently scoutable, and as a general rule you make a bunker if you sense something is amiss. If your 4 warpgate rush fails you're really really far behind, too, since the terran player has been teching. Lastly, you have to make the decision to 4 warpgate rush very early, before you know what he's doing. What if he's doing something different that gets a reactor, and he's going to make bunkers? clearly this will not be easy. I think he's talking about the fact that when terran pulls scvs, he's already taken a lot of economic damage, so if you pull probes and that causes you to hold, you'll probably be ahead. I want to point out that if terran does a thor/marine rush, yeah, you should pull probes. In general, the larger your force, the less damage you take total during a fight. 5 zealots beat 10 zerglings, but 20 zealots absolutely demolish 10 zerglings, you take no damage at all. That thor rush is pretty damn all-inish, if you smash it with few losses, it's pretty much GG, so it's okay to suffer some probe losses to smash it, so yeah, pull probes against any thor rush build. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On September 14 2011 03:25 malaan wrote: it is simply an auto loss for terran if you go DT expand from the start. +2 Everyone says FE or DTs is the best way to counter 1/1/1 but when I play TvP with the intent to 1/1/1, I HOPE that my opponent does one of those two things because it is an auto-win for me. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=232753 4k.Warden is way better than I'll ever be, this isn't just Ugly, the random Platinum scrub talking, though I have had a lot of success with what little time I have to play. I poke with a hellion as soon as factory is done. FE by Toss = immediate armory, move out with 8 SCVs repairing first thor + marines. Auto-win. If I see a forge and no expo, I know he is 1) - hiding something, 2) - does not want cloaked banshees in his base so badly that he is preparing for it in the only way possible without a robo, so I assume DTs and get a Raven. If I see 3 gate 2 gas no Robo, I assume VR or DTs and get 2 turrets or a really fast raven depending on my tech path. Once I see the first DT at my base I can kill you with... anything, really. You have no money, no charge, no blink, no HT. You have to do damage with DTs or you die and they are pretty easy to scout. (DeMuslim ALMOST lost to DTs [but didn't] at MLG Raleigh due to great map control and hidden tech by Trickster but it's still a gamble at best, even with good harass and successful ninja tech) http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/75451-clr4-trickster-vs-demuslim-game-3 If I see 3 gate 2 gas, heavy sentries like you would against Zerg to expand safely as Protoss, Thor 1-A FTW because the sentries are useless and he can only afford a few zealots. Stargate = Thor, 1-A FTW as soon as he shows up at your base. 4 gate would be a good counter if your Terran opponent blindly goes for Thors and you somehow learn he isn't going bio without an observer, but if he's not dumb he see's you 4 gating and 1/1/1 cloaked banshee FTW. What I have struggled against with BOTH builds as T is 1 gate robo + 2 more gates that engages me in the middle of the map. When I try to Thor rush my buddy and he has a fast Robo, he knows the Thor is coming because his observer will find my factory, armory and/or lack of air units, so he will 1) churn stalkers and just kite my marines to death while the Thor slowly makes his way across the map, only to discover that his entourage did not survive, or 2, chrono boost out 3-4 immortals, which will wreck my Thor fast. If I wait for 2-3 Thors, he will have enough blink stalkers to 1) do huge damage to my base when I am in the middle of the map, and then run back to defend or 2) kite me with blink, or 4) go one base colossus/zealot which rapes marine/thor so so so hard. He beats me so badly when he gets a fast Robo that I don't even try Thors, I continue on to 1/1/1 Banshee Tank Marine all-in which, coincidentally, is most easily beaten with the same build order and structure set. Obviously the unit comp and engagement are different, but that's for another thread. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On September 14 2011 09:31 Whitewing wrote: I want to point out that if terran does a thor/marine rush, yeah, you should pull probes. In general, the larger your force, the less damage you take total during a fight. 5 zealots beat 10 zerglings, but 20 zealots absolutely demolish 10 zerglings, you take no damage at all. That thor rush is pretty damn all-inish, if you smash it with few losses, it's pretty much GG, so it's okay to suffer some probe losses to smash it, so yeah, pull probes against any thor rush build. Let me clarify. If he's doing a thor rush, it means he doesn't have siege mode. He is also pulling lots and lots of scvs. You want to throw everything you have ever made in the game at this since he has no follow up and you (should) have a nexus unless you're doing a 1-base build. He doesn't have splash and he has to kill every single one of your units for the rush to actually succeed. So mineral walk your entire probe force (should be up to mid 30s when the push comes) and attack move them as you engage with the rest of your army. There's no way in hell he can kill all of your units and all of your probes. I usually have 20+ probes and a good portion of my army left over so the game is over at that point. If you don't pull probes you could lose, but if you pull probes you should win overwhelmingly. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13426 Posts
On September 14 2011 10:38 Alejandrisha wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 14 2011 09:31 Whitewing wrote: I want to point out that if terran does a thor/marine rush, yeah, you should pull probes. In general, the larger your force, the less damage you take total during a fight. 5 zealots beat 10 zerglings, but 20 zealots absolutely demolish 10 zerglings, you take no damage at all. That thor rush is pretty damn all-inish, if you smash it with few losses, it's pretty much GG, so it's okay to suffer some probe losses to smash it, so yeah, pull probes against any thor rush build. Let me clarify. If he's doing a thor rush, it means he doesn't have siege mode. He is also pulling lots and lots of scvs. You want to throw everything you have ever made in the game at this since he has no follow up and you (should) have a nexus unless you're doing a 1-base build. He doesn't have splash and he has to kill every single one of your units for the rush to actually succeed. So mineral walk your entire probe force (should be up to mid 30s when the push comes) and attack move them as you engage with the rest of your army. There's no way in hell he can kill all of your units and all of your probes. I usually have 20+ probes and a good portion of my army left over so the game is over at that point. If you don't pull probes you could lose, but if you pull probes you should win overwhelmingly. Im Just diamond so I dont really practice the probe pull to attack kind of thing. So when you say mineral walk you mean you want us to pull ALL probes, stack them onto ONE mineral patch then just A Move them with the rest of the army? Sorry for my lack of knowledge but I really want to understand how Im supposed to pull probes to beat the one base since I never do it. (I know not to pull them against splash units as its not entirely worth it) | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
edit: yeah it's bad against builds with splash (siege tech), but also against builds that have stim as stim marines pretty much have splash just because of their dps.. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13426 Posts
On September 14 2011 11:06 Alejandrisha wrote: a line works just fine.. As long as you can get a decent surround with your probes at the same time you engage with units and with GS So move then A Move for the surround a la Zergling surround kind of thing I guess? If so cool, sounds good. Thanks for the tip Alej | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
On September 14 2011 11:07 ZeromuS wrote: So move then A Move for the surround a la Zergling surround kind of thing I guess? If so cool, sounds good. Thanks for the tip Alej No he means you mineral walk your probes through the enemy units by clicking a mineral patch somewhere in the map behind the enemy units when you have all your probes selected, thus your probes are able to attack from behind while your other units can attack from in front and you can get the best possible surround and mess up any kiting (i think this is what he means anyway). However, this is making the assumption that all those probes don't evaporate instantly to 15 marines a thor and a tank which I think he is underestimating the amount of dps that is at this point in the game. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On September 14 2011 12:22 statikg wrote: No he means you mineral walk your probes through the enemy units by clicking a mineral patch somewhere in the map behind the enemy units when you have all your probes selected, thus your probes are able to attack from behind while your other units can attack from in front and you can get the best possible surround and mess up any kiting (i think this is what he means anyway). However, this is making the assumption that all those probes don't evaporate instantly to 15 marines a thor and a tank which I think he is underestimating the amount of dps that is at this point in the game. the enemy doesn't prioritize the probes over attacking units until you actually click attack with your congo line. i'd rather have all that dps on probes rather than other units though. | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
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treekiller
United States236 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6566 Posts
On September 14 2011 15:11 treekiller wrote: The replay seems bugged for me. The protoss player goes like gas gate forge then stops doing anything. I didnt know that SC2 replays could get bugged like this. Anyone know what could have caused that? In that replay the OP is playing as terran and just showing the build. The protoss is an easy computer ^^ | ||
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_-NoMaN-_
Canada250 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On September 14 2011 10:38 Alejandrisha wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 14 2011 09:31 Whitewing wrote: I want to point out that if terran does a thor/marine rush, yeah, you should pull probes. In general, the larger your force, the less damage you take total during a fight. 5 zealots beat 10 zerglings, but 20 zealots absolutely demolish 10 zerglings, you take no damage at all. That thor rush is pretty damn all-inish, if you smash it with few losses, it's pretty much GG, so it's okay to suffer some probe losses to smash it, so yeah, pull probes against any thor rush build. Let me clarify. If he's doing a thor rush, it means he doesn't have siege mode. He is also pulling lots and lots of scvs. You want to throw everything you have ever made in the game at this since he has no follow up and you (should) have a nexus unless you're doing a 1-base build. He doesn't have splash and he has to kill every single one of your units for the rush to actually succeed. So mineral walk your entire probe force (should be up to mid 30s when the push comes) and attack move them as you engage with the rest of your army. There's no way in hell he can kill all of your units and all of your probes. I usually have 20+ probes and a good portion of my army left over so the game is over at that point. If you don't pull probes you could lose, but if you pull probes you should win overwhelmingly. I don't disagree with you that you should pull probes, but it's not true at all that the terran has no follow-up - he can easily "all-in" several times, and if he kills the majority of your army each time as well as some probes, you get weaker and weaker each time but each terran "wave" is still just as strong as the previous, so you could eventually lose. For example, MC vs puma on xel naga from IEM cologne - puma doesn't do this thor build, but the same idea holds that MC stopped the first attack but lost to the subsequent attack. @ OP, sometimes if there are too many SCVs and I don't see the attack coming that fast (7:00 is pretty early), I'll sac my expo to buy time to chrono out an immortal, and defend at the ramp (which is much easier place to hold thor attacks. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
Though his attack hit really late (aka lot of time to prepare) I lost my whole army and my Natural but was able to retreat my Probes to my Main. While he was killing what was left lowground I warped in 2 Rounds of Units (6 Zealots, 6 Stalker) and as he moved up I engaged with these and 2/3 of my Probes against his slightly weakened army. This time it was not even close. Totally crushed it and won the game afterwards because his lack of a followup. Really appreciate the Probe-Tip, always valued them as to precious to participate in these huge scale battles, but without enemy splash they are indeed overwhelmingly good. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On September 15 2011 02:16 Xanatoss wrote: Regarding Probe-Pulls: Played a T today who did a 2 Thor Allin with a couple of Banshees and a bucketload of SCV's Though his attack hit really late (aka lot of time to prepare) I lost my whole army and my Natural but was able to retreat my Probes to my Main. While he was killing what was left lowground I warped in 2 Rounds of Units (6 Zealots, 6 Stalker) and as he moved up I engaged with these and 2/3 of my Probes against his slightly weakened army. This time it was not even close. Totally crushed it and won the game afterwards because his lack of a followup. Really appreciate the Probe-Tip, always valued them as to precious to participate in these huge scale battles, but without enemy splash they are indeed overwhelmingly good. Pulling probes is risky, but as long as you have a plan in mind it can be an effective Xanatoss gambit. I think that terran players may be more used to pulling workers to defend or attack because to an extent it's already done for repairing. That + 5 bonus hp makes them slightly more effective in combat. Still, probes are excellent, and if your opponent is all in you can afford to pull probes. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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