On September 16 2011 10:15 the p00n wrote: I have a 100% winrate with this on ladder against Protoss so far. Here is a small replay pack I composed (I have more replays, but they are kind of the same, so I've picked a diverse amount of strategies).
All the replays are from ladder:
1x vs. 3gate stargate into DTs on shakuras, opponent is GM league 1x vs. some robo opening on xel naga caverns, opponent is GM league 1x vs. some other robo opening on nerazim crypt, opponent high master 1x vs 4gate, opponent is high master
[url blocked]
EDIT: This is not a 'standard' thor rush; there is an extra tank and a transition.
@7:00 15 marines 1 tank 1 thor + autorepair scvs starport going up
Hello everyone,
I have played a ladder game against a grandmaster terran (AlwayzLame or something; he was french, EU server) who used a build against me which left me wondering how to counter it. He told me he had 100% winrate with it against any Protoss not rushing for DTs and he claimed that 1 base stargate builds would lose hard to it as well (which was my first question).
Now I know what you're thinking: yaddayaddaya, where's the replay, there better be a replay... well, there is, sort of: I was playing at an internet cafe and was so intrigued by the build that I e-mailed the specifics to my own e-mail from the internet cafe, except for the replay. Not forget - it just totally didn't cross my mind to also send the replay.
However, because I don't want to be Artosis or one of those guys talking about nearly-impossible-to-counter-strategies without replay support, I have reconstructed the build in a single player game against the computer.
12rax, reactor after first marine, then non-stop marines 13gas 17depot, depots when necessary from here on 18gas factory at 100gas, techlab and armory immediately after siege tank starport when enough resources grab 8 scvs or so, autorepair, follow on thor
I went for a 2gate robo expansion with a fast observer, the map was xel naga caverns. My opponent did the build above, with the small exception of making a 2nd marine and then canceling it so my probe saw a 2nd marine making instead of the reactor before it was chased out of the base. I scout the armory and chrono out immortals, having 2 by the time his push comes with a measly gateway army consisting of mostly zealots. I throw up my guardian shield, but 2 seconds later my army is gone except for the immortals which I'm forced to retreat. The game ends here.
I was wondering if there was an expansion build which would be safe against this (as I contemplated canceling my expansion, but that would probably make me lose to his 1 base if he waits until he has a certain number of banshees... I don't know, you tell me?).
On September 13 2011 09:14 Kornholi0 wrote: Doesn't standard thor rush autolose to micro? (Don't focus fire the thor, kill the marines and tanks and then kill the thor with zealots).
I don't see this breaking the game any time soon and I see 1/1/1 being way more effective.
Hello,
there are simply too many units and he told me he transitions into a 1-1-1 after this (which my reconstructed replay also shows). Don't forget there is an unsieged tank too, which also benefits from repair and does nearly 25 dps to stalkers.
This is purely theorycraft, but as it's simply mass reactored unupgraded marines being sent down to you, couldn't you do an excessive amount of kiting with a good number stalkers from his main to yours, after doing a 1gate FE, and then chronoing out 1 or 2 immortals to attempt to deal with the tank/thor?
The key weakness of this is that he's -just- on a single reactors worth of marines for a fairly long time. You have time to be aggressive, since he's immobile, and it takes a -relatively- long time til the thor pops. If all he has is a crapload of marines and a siege tank that's decently easy to kite, you can do some decent economic damage.
Additionally, it seems like this -might- be simply possible to break by forcing yourself up his ramp with a few stalkers early and then 4gate Zealot in HuK's style. This is definitely a risk though because of derp terran scouting, since he could have another 2 rax behind the bunker and I feel like there's very little way to safely differentiate between this and a nonstandard 1-1-1 or even a 3rax, which would both absolutely roll mass stalkers.
On September 13 2011 23:18 Sina92 wrote: if you're a toss you can't stop it unless u blindcounter it. same goes for most terran 1base all ins.
That's not really true at all, but it does suck to have yet another allin to deal with. As with all the terran early allins you can either sniff it out early and crush it on the map or delay as long as possible on 2 base with cut probes.
I'm a Z and haven't played in a long time, but wouldn't a gasless expand pan out well against this ? I know it's quite risky, but you can scout the double gas (maybe reactor) which means usually no rax pressure.
To my eyes, the Protoss have a «no expanding» timing between the 5 and 7 minutes mark as Terrans 1 base play hits just when your expand has yelded exactly nothing :/
On September 13 2011 23:18 Sina92 wrote: if you're a toss you can't stop it unless u blindcounter it. same goes for most terran 1base all ins.
That's not really true at all, but it does suck to have yet another allin to deal with. As with all the terran early allins you can either sniff it out early and crush it on the map or delay as long as possible on 2 base with cut probes.
how do you scout this then? best way to hold this is by going for twilight tech, but the only way to scout it is trough robo tech
On September 13 2011 23:18 Sina92 wrote: if you're a toss you can't stop it unless u blindcounter it. same goes for most terran 1base all ins.
That's not really true at all, but it does suck to have yet another allin to deal with. As with all the terran early allins you can either sniff it out early and crush it on the map or delay as long as possible on 2 base with cut probes.
how do you scout this then? best way to hold this is by going for twilight tech, but the only way to scout it is trough robo tech
I don't really see how either of those statements is true. Pretty sure all the toss one base plays do well against this tc or not. Also it is usually a terrible idea to grab a quick tc vs a 1 base terran.
Not to mention that the very common 1 gate robo scouts it with plenty of time to spare.
If you would like to test some of this out pm me. I have NA EU.
Well the 'standard' 1/1/1 usually makes 3 marines before reactor. Getting only a single marine before reactor seems absurd. Can't you chrono out your initial zealot/stalker to scout out this weakness, slow his build, and even kill scvs? Also, as a terran who used to do 1-base thor-raven-marine builds, I found myself needing a blind bunker to survive aggressive warpgate attacks, which hit just before the thor arrived, and that was even *with* constant marine production.
Can you expand vs this? I dont know, but I'd suggest aggressive 3-4 warpgates intending to do damage, and add a robo too if he stays 1-base. As long as you dont get contained at your ramp (kite him and set up good flanks if he tries to cross map), you should be able to expand quite late and still be ahead.
On September 13 2011 23:37 mr_tolkien wrote: I'm a Z and haven't played in a long time, but wouldn't a gasless expand pan out well against this ? I know it's quite risky, but you can scout the double gas (maybe reactor) which means usually no rax pressure.
To my eyes, the Protoss have a «no expanding» timing between the 5 and 7 minutes mark as Terrans 1 base play hits just when your expand has yelded exactly nothing :/
without gas and cybernatic core/ wrapgate research will take a long long time, protoss has only probes to scout and zealot to fight. It's impossible to hold attack like 2 rax openning or and aggressive marine marauder openning, they will just kite your zealot all day and win
On September 14 2011 00:00 gogogadgetflow wrote: Well the 'standard' 1/1/1 usually makes 3 marines before reactor. Getting only a single marine before reactor seems absurd. Can't you chrono out your initial zealot/stalker to scout out this weakness, slow his build, and even kill scvs? Also, as a terran who used to do 1-base thor-raven-marine builds, I found myself needing a blind bunker to survive aggressive warpgate attacks, which hit just before the thor arrived, and that was even *with* constant marine production.
Can you expand vs this? I dont know, but I'd suggest aggressive 3-4 warpgates intending to do damage, and add a robo too if he stays 1-base. As long as you dont get contained at your ramp (kite him and set up good flanks if he tries to cross map), you should be able to expand quite late and still be ahead.
And if the Terran is doing something standard instead of an all-in, your one-base play puts you massively behind. Terran is pretty good at holding all-ins since Command Centres can be floated away and they're good at holding ramps with the use of bunkers etc.
Plus, even if you hold the original push you still have a second wave 111 push coming out afterwards. I don't think this is as easy to hold as you're making out, even with a one-base play.
EDIT:
It is fairly standard to get a "blind bunker" when teching hard as Terran, I think.
I dont think its easy to hold, and in general there are numerous tech builds for terran that are much harder to defend than to execute, which is why putting on pressure before the tech comes into play seems to be the best play. Ideally, if terran is doing something standard, he won't show weakness early and so protoss will 3gate-robo or something, contain terran and expand.
Others say you should expand earlier, 1-gate robo or something, problem being these seem to outright die to other builds :/ .
This build is actually strong against all match ups in High Diamond/Low Master... Ive only played 4 games with it. But so far so good. The hardest was against a zerg, I feel a good zerg whos not just power droning would prolly crush it though... Ill keep on testing it throughout the day.
So far it just ass rapes toss... Forcefields are absolutly useless as well, the Thor just crushes them like godzilla crushes houses.
On September 13 2011 23:28 Sea_Food wrote: More zealots and immortals, less stalkers (dont make more than 1) less sentries (dont make more than 2.)
Althou that is the key of holding every terran rush atm.
this seems to be the best advice ive seen so far. do a huk 1gate expand then just pump zealots and you should have a fair chance against this. and yeah dont auto target the thor, last time this happened to me i killed everything but the thor and had to surround it with probes and warp in more units to take it down. it reminded me on WC3 cause i kept trying to get the surround with the probes as the thor was juking left and right. I also lost my expo twice to this and still won so it seems to set the terran back a ton if their initial attack doesnt kill you outright (like most terran all ins obviously)
On September 13 2011 23:28 Sea_Food wrote: More zealots and immortals, less stalkers (dont make more than 1) less sentries (dont make more than 2.)
Althou that is the key of holding every terran rush atm.
this seems to be the best advice ive seen so far. do a huk 1gate expand then just pump zealots and you should have a fair chance against this. and yeah dont auto target the thor, last time this happened to me i killed everything but the thor and had to surround it with probes and warp in more units to take it down. it reminded me on WC3 cause i kept trying to get the surround with the probes as the thor was juking left and right. I also lost my expo twice to this and still won so it seems to set the terran back a ton if their initial attack doesnt kill you outright (like most terran all ins obviously)
That sounds like it would work, but bear in mind that whatever build you go has to work equally well (or at least passably well) against other builds that scout the same as this one until it can get a good scout off. How do you differentiate this from marine/tank/banshee allin in time? 2 sentries and 1 stalker seems like it might just lose to 2 banshees, but I'm not sure.
On September 13 2011 23:28 Sea_Food wrote: More zealots and immortals, less stalkers (dont make more than 1) less sentries (dont make more than 2.)
Althou that is the key of holding every terran rush atm.
this seems to be the best advice ive seen so far. do a huk 1gate expand then just pump zealots and you should have a fair chance against this. and yeah dont auto target the thor, last time this happened to me i killed everything but the thor and had to surround it with probes and warp in more units to take it down. it reminded me on WC3 cause i kept trying to get the surround with the probes as the thor was juking left and right. I also lost my expo twice to this and still won so it seems to set the terran back a ton if their initial attack doesnt kill you outright (like most terran all ins obviously)
That sounds like it would work, but bear in mind that whatever build you go has to work equally well (or at least passably well) against other builds that scout the same as this one until it can get a good scout off. How do you differentiate this from marine/tank/banshee allin in time? 2 sentries and 1 stalker seems like it might just lose to 2 banshees, but I'm not sure.
This build also transition into 111 so after the 1st push there should be some rines a tank and a banshee incoming, so not quite sure if this zea/imortal would deal good with it.
On September 13 2011 23:28 Sea_Food wrote: More zealots and immortals, less stalkers (dont make more than 1) less sentries (dont make more than 2.)
Althou that is the key of holding every terran rush atm.
this seems to be the best advice ive seen so far. do a huk 1gate expand then just pump zealots and you should have a fair chance against this. and yeah dont auto target the thor, last time this happened to me i killed everything but the thor and had to surround it with probes and warp in more units to take it down. it reminded me on WC3 cause i kept trying to get the surround with the probes as the thor was juking left and right. I also lost my expo twice to this and still won so it seems to set the terran back a ton if their initial attack doesnt kill you outright (like most terran all ins obviously)
That sounds like it would work, but bear in mind that whatever build you go has to work equally well (or at least passably well) against other builds that scout the same as this one until it can get a good scout off. How do you differentiate this from marine/tank/banshee allin in time? 2 sentries and 1 stalker seems like it might just lose to 2 banshees, but I'm not sure.
This build also transition into 111 so after the 1st push there should be some rines a tank and a banshee incoming, so not quite sure if this zea/imortal would deal good with it.
Well, by then you should be able to scout and figure it out. I'm more worried about the period of time when you don't know if this is a tank/thor allin or a 1/1/1-- you need a build that can effectively stop both, since the scouting for both is the same until you can get something other than a stalker poke to scout.
On September 13 2011 23:28 Sea_Food wrote: More zealots and immortals, less stalkers (dont make more than 1) less sentries (dont make more than 2.)
Althou that is the key of holding every terran rush atm.
this seems to be the best advice ive seen so far. do a huk 1gate expand then just pump zealots and you should have a fair chance against this. and yeah dont auto target the thor, last time this happened to me i killed everything but the thor and had to surround it with probes and warp in more units to take it down. it reminded me on WC3 cause i kept trying to get the surround with the probes as the thor was juking left and right. I also lost my expo twice to this and still won so it seems to set the terran back a ton if their initial attack doesnt kill you outright (like most terran all ins obviously)
That sounds like it would work, but bear in mind that whatever build you go has to work equally well (or at least passably well) against other builds that scout the same as this one until it can get a good scout off. How do you differentiate this from marine/tank/banshee allin in time? 2 sentries and 1 stalker seems like it might just lose to 2 banshees, but I'm not sure.
You warp in stalkers after your zealot/immortal kills all the ground units. It probably isn't the best way but it works. If you to make a more balanced force vs the 1-1-1; I think you need better micro than the terrran.
If it's followed up by a 1/1/1, you have to crush the initial push without losing much, or you won't be able to hold the follow up waves. This would suggest that the best way to do it is to hit it with overwhelming force, which generally suggests having a lot of stuff, even if those units aren't particularly good. This would imply that going for robo units is not the best idea here, as they'd likely just ignore the immortals while taking out the gateway units, and then the follow up 1/1/1 waves would deal with you pretty easily: immortals aren't particularly great against thors anyway (lol thors win 1v1 unless the immortals have upgrades), especially if the thor is being repaired. Looks like the best way to deal with it is going for a low gas build with a shit ton of zealots, then getting stalkers later to deal with the banshees. My guess is that a one gate fast expand would be the best opener here, with low gas intake (stick on just the one geyser and go up to 6-7 gates?) and slow teching with lots of gateway units. This is usually how I hold a 1/1/1 if I scout it. It sucks though because if terran goes for a bio focused build or a fast expand, you kinda get owned due to slow tech.
I'm not sure how you'd differentiate this from other terran builds based on what you scout until it is too late though.
I will just reply a bit to everyone as most are saying the same thing.
First, I did poke up with my initial stalker (didn't bring zealot though), he had no bunker and 5 marines, you can only do so much poking when he has the ramp + micro and this is going to be even harder when the patch limits the vision up ramps. I know from experience that you can't all-in a terran with warpgates if he is going for a 1-1-1 or mech-oriented play, as the tank with autorepair (or a bunker) will just deal too much dps.
Some people suggested something which boils down to 'just make more units' - that is actually not possible, you do not have the resources or time while expanding. Don't forget that the terran doesn't have to do this early push, if he sees no expo he can just stay on 1 base as well.
You cannot stay on 1 base, because the terran will have the advantage due to his unit composition (mainly the banshees) when on limited resources (both 1basing). Not to forget that with the raven denying your obs, he can ninja a 2nd command center or simply float his starting orbital to his natural, something you cannot do. I actually played some test games against the common/standard 1-1-1 with a friend where we both agree to stay on 1 base, the Protoss always lost - the only reason 1 base play works against 1-1-1 is because the Terran moves out at a certain point in time, whereas he has absolutely no motivation to move out and can just mass up units, moving out only when the protoss makes an additional nexus. Playing 1base against 1-1-1 is simply hoping he will attack you, which he doesn't have to do because the longer the game stays 1-1 base, the bigger the advantage gets for the terran.
Another issue is scouting; yes you can scout him at a certain point in time if you're going for a robo expansion, but the obs will arrive later than you think. Save strange cheeses, the only information you can acquire with your scouting probe is whether he made a refinery or not, as he doesn't have to show his add-on and can always cancel his 2nd marine. Later on you can poke up the ramp, some terrans will show you the 2nd marine (I don't know why?) which tells you he didn't make an add-on, but if you see 1 marine you are still in the dark - you can decide to suicide your probe in and hope it gets enough vision of the base to see what's going on, but an intelligent terran will either have a wall or have his barracks further back, denying you information. You don't really want to sac the probe anyway, you need it at the bottom of his ramp to see if he's moving out with stuff.
With the stalker, you can get info on the early army composition or if he has a bunker. This is a fairly large tell, but it's not that great - he can do the bomber pressure opening (1rax reactor, 1 tech lab, go after first marauder with concussive) and hide his marauders, something we have seen countless times in high-level games, i.e. MLG. This requires a totally different response from the standard 1-1-1 with no push (whereas you make minimal army early on and chrono out probes against the standard sit-on-your-ass-while-doing-111-build, but need army against the bomber opening). Not to forget that you will want sentries against early rax pressure, something you do not want against the thor build this topic is about.
Because this is a game of imperfect information, you have to create that narrative inside your head, where you subconsciously give odds to the builds he may be doing. If you see 4-5 marines at the top of his ramp, or a bunker filled with marines, you still don't know if he's going for a factory/starport-based play, he may have 2 rax behind that massing up marauders. However, you have to make that semi-assumption because it's usually that. That's the big problem with this build - you need an entirely different strategy against this then against another opening which looks exactly the same from the protoss point of view up until it is too late (and I would argue even the observer scouts the build too late... I'm just a protoss who makes a blind immortal and chronos it out immediately right after the obs and I still didn't have 2 immortals when his push arrived, I had to wait for a few seconds and let my expo take the damage before it popped and this was non-stop with perfect chronos).
On September 14 2011 02:17 Binabik wrote: Don't go for an expansion on Xel'Naga unless you scout a Command Center
1 base vs a 1 base Terran is total suicide. He has mules and you don't, he can move his OC down to his natural when the main is mined out, you can't. You will lose, horribly, every time.
On September 14 2011 02:17 Binabik wrote: Don't go for an expansion on Xel'Naga unless you scout a Command Center
1 base vs a 1 base Terran is total suicide. He has mules and you don't, he can move his OC down to his natural when the main is mined out, you can't. You will lose, horribly, every time.
I agree with XQC here. There are entire guides written about trying to force a 1base vs 1 base TvP, since Terran almost always wins that way. At some point you need to expand-- Would it be possible to cut probes earlier for units?
On September 14 2011 02:34 the p00n wrote: I will just reply a bit to everyone as most are saying the same thing.
First, I did poke up with my initial stalker (didn't bring zealot though), he had no bunker and 5 marines, you can only do so much poking when he has the ramp + micro and this is going to be even harder when the patch limits the vision up ramps. I know from experience that you can't all-in a terran with warpgates if he is going for a 1-1-1 or mech-oriented play, as the tank with autorepair (or a bunker) will just deal too much dps.
Some people suggested something which boils down to 'just make more units' - that is actually not possible, you do not have the resources or time while expanding. Don't forget that the terran doesn't have to do this early push, if he sees no expo he can just stay on 1 base as well.
You cannot stay on 1 base, because the terran will have the advantage due to his unit composition (mainly the banshees) when on limited resources (both 1basing). Not to forget that with the raven denying your obs, he can ninja a 2nd command center or simply float his starting orbital to his natural, something you cannot do. I actually played some test games against the common/standard 1-1-1 with a friend where we both agree to stay on 1 base, the Protoss always lost - the only reason 1 base play works against 1-1-1 is because the Terran moves out at a certain point in time, whereas he has absolutely no motivation to move out and can just mass up units, moving out only when the protoss makes an additional nexus. Playing 1base against 1-1-1 is simply hoping he will attack you, which he doesn't have to do because the longer the game stays 1-1 base, the bigger the advantage gets for the terran.
Another issue is scouting; yes you can scout him at a certain point in time if you're going for a robo expansion, but the obs will arrive later than you think. Save strange cheeses, the only information you can acquire with your scouting probe is whether he made a refinery or not, as he doesn't have to show his add-on and can always cancel his 2nd marine. Later on you can poke up the ramp, some terrans will show you the 2nd marine (I don't know why?) which tells you he didn't make an add-on, but if you see 1 marine you are still in the dark - you can decide to suicide your probe in and hope it gets enough vision of the base to see what's going on, but an intelligent terran will either have a wall or have his barracks further back, denying you information. You don't really want to sac the probe anyway, you need it at the bottom of his ramp to see if he's moving out with stuff.
With the stalker, you can get info on the early army composition or if he has a bunker. This is a fairly large tell, but it's not that great - he can do the bomber pressure opening (1rax reactor, 1 tech lab, go after first marauder with concussive) and hide his marauders, something we have seen countless times in high-level games, i.e. MLG. This requires a totally different response from the standard 1-1-1 with no push (whereas you make minimal army early on and chrono out probes against the standard sit-on-your-ass-while-doing-111-build, but need army against the bomber opening). Not to forget that you will want sentries against early rax pressure, something you do not want against the thor build this topic is about.
Because this is a game of imperfect information, you have to create that narrative inside your head, where you subconsciously give odds to the builds he may be doing. If you see 4-5 marines at the top of his ramp, or a bunker filled with marines, you still don't know if he's going for a factory/starport-based play, he may have 2 rax behind that massing up marauders. However, you have to make that semi-assumption because it's usually that. That's the big problem with this build - you need an entirely different strategy against this then against another opening which looks exactly the same from the protoss point of view up until it is too late (and I would argue even the observer scouts the build too late... I'm just a protoss who makes a blind immortal and chronos it out immediately right after the obs and I still didn't have 2 immortals when his push arrived, I had to wait for a few seconds and let my expo take the damage before it popped and this was non-stop with perfect chronos).
Is it possible to skip the robo, get a sentry or two, make more zealots, and get hallucination? It saves you minerals and costs less gas (since you'll probably get a sentry or two anyway) than the robo/observer, and lets you get another gateway which helps hold the push better than the robo does with the extra zealots. I'd have to test it, I suspect the hallucination comes out too late even with chrono boost, but your army would be a little bit bigger at the appropriate time, especially since you'd only get one geyser and not two (more probes on minerals).
On September 14 2011 02:34 the p00n wrote: I will just reply a bit to everyone as most are saying the same thing.
First, I did poke up with my initial stalker (didn't bring zealot though), he had no bunker and 5 marines, you can only do so much poking when he has the ramp + micro and this is going to be even harder when the patch limits the vision up ramps. I know from experience that you can't all-in a terran with warpgates if he is going for a 1-1-1 or mech-oriented play, as the tank with autorepair (or a bunker) will just deal too much dps.
Some people suggested something which boils down to 'just make more units' - that is actually not possible, you do not have the resources or time while expanding. Don't forget that the terran doesn't have to do this early push, if he sees no expo he can just stay on 1 base as well.
You cannot stay on 1 base, because the terran will have the advantage due to his unit composition (mainly the banshees) when on limited resources (both 1basing). Not to forget that with the raven denying your obs, he can ninja a 2nd command center or simply float his starting orbital to his natural, something you cannot do. I actually played some test games against the common/standard 1-1-1 with a friend where we both agree to stay on 1 base, the Protoss always lost - the only reason 1 base play works against 1-1-1 is because the Terran moves out at a certain point in time, whereas he has absolutely no motivation to move out and can just mass up units, moving out only when the protoss makes an additional nexus. Playing 1base against 1-1-1 is simply hoping he will attack you, which he doesn't have to do because the longer the game stays 1-1 base, the bigger the advantage gets for the terran.
Another issue is scouting; yes you can scout him at a certain point in time if you're going for a robo expansion, but the obs will arrive later than you think. Save strange cheeses, the only information you can acquire with your scouting probe is whether he made a refinery or not, as he doesn't have to show his add-on and can always cancel his 2nd marine. Later on you can poke up the ramp, some terrans will show you the 2nd marine (I don't know why?) which tells you he didn't make an add-on, but if you see 1 marine you are still in the dark - you can decide to suicide your probe in and hope it gets enough vision of the base to see what's going on, but an intelligent terran will either have a wall or have his barracks further back, denying you information. You don't really want to sac the probe anyway, you need it at the bottom of his ramp to see if he's moving out with stuff.
With the stalker, you can get info on the early army composition or if he has a bunker. This is a fairly large tell, but it's not that great - he can do the bomber pressure opening (1rax reactor, 1 tech lab, go after first marauder with concussive) and hide his marauders, something we have seen countless times in high-level games, i.e. MLG. This requires a totally different response from the standard 1-1-1 with no push (whereas you make minimal army early on and chrono out probes against the standard sit-on-your-ass-while-doing-111-build, but need army against the bomber opening). Not to forget that you will want sentries against early rax pressure, something you do not want against the thor build this topic is about.
Because this is a game of imperfect information, you have to create that narrative inside your head, where you subconsciously give odds to the builds he may be doing. If you see 4-5 marines at the top of his ramp, or a bunker filled with marines, you still don't know if he's going for a factory/starport-based play, he may have 2 rax behind that massing up marauders. However, you have to make that semi-assumption because it's usually that. That's the big problem with this build - you need an entirely different strategy against this then against another opening which looks exactly the same from the protoss point of view up until it is too late (and I would argue even the observer scouts the build too late... I'm just a protoss who makes a blind immortal and chronos it out immediately right after the obs and I still didn't have 2 immortals when his push arrived, I had to wait for a few seconds and let my expo take the damage before it popped and this was non-stop with perfect chronos).
Is it possible to skip the robo, get a sentry or two, make more zealots, and get hallucination? It saves you minerals and costs less gas (since you'll probably get a sentry or two anyway) than the robo/observer, and lets you get another gateway which helps hold the push better than the robo does with the extra zealots. I'd have to test it, I suspect the hallucination comes out too late even with chrono boost, but your army would be a little bit bigger at the appropriate time, especially since you'd only get one geyser and not two (more probes on minerals).
What are you going to do against a cloaked banshee, which looks -exactly- the same as this? Also, I'm not even sure if skipping the robo is the correct play if you somehow have the info that it isn't cloak banshee due to having no immortal(s).
On September 14 2011 02:34 the p00n wrote: I will just reply a bit to everyone as most are saying the same thing.
First, I did poke up with my initial stalker (didn't bring zealot though), he had no bunker and 5 marines, you can only do so much poking when he has the ramp + micro and this is going to be even harder when the patch limits the vision up ramps. I know from experience that you can't all-in a terran with warpgates if he is going for a 1-1-1 or mech-oriented play, as the tank with autorepair (or a bunker) will just deal too much dps.
Some people suggested something which boils down to 'just make more units' - that is actually not possible, you do not have the resources or time while expanding. Don't forget that the terran doesn't have to do this early push, if he sees no expo he can just stay on 1 base as well.
You cannot stay on 1 base, because the terran will have the advantage due to his unit composition (mainly the banshees) when on limited resources (both 1basing). Not to forget that with the raven denying your obs, he can ninja a 2nd command center or simply float his starting orbital to his natural, something you cannot do. I actually played some test games against the common/standard 1-1-1 with a friend where we both agree to stay on 1 base, the Protoss always lost - the only reason 1 base play works against 1-1-1 is because the Terran moves out at a certain point in time, whereas he has absolutely no motivation to move out and can just mass up units, moving out only when the protoss makes an additional nexus. Playing 1base against 1-1-1 is simply hoping he will attack you, which he doesn't have to do because the longer the game stays 1-1 base, the bigger the advantage gets for the terran.
Another issue is scouting; yes you can scout him at a certain point in time if you're going for a robo expansion, but the obs will arrive later than you think. Save strange cheeses, the only information you can acquire with your scouting probe is whether he made a refinery or not, as he doesn't have to show his add-on and can always cancel his 2nd marine. Later on you can poke up the ramp, some terrans will show you the 2nd marine (I don't know why?) which tells you he didn't make an add-on, but if you see 1 marine you are still in the dark - you can decide to suicide your probe in and hope it gets enough vision of the base to see what's going on, but an intelligent terran will either have a wall or have his barracks further back, denying you information. You don't really want to sac the probe anyway, you need it at the bottom of his ramp to see if he's moving out with stuff.
With the stalker, you can get info on the early army composition or if he has a bunker. This is a fairly large tell, but it's not that great - he can do the bomber pressure opening (1rax reactor, 1 tech lab, go after first marauder with concussive) and hide his marauders, something we have seen countless times in high-level games, i.e. MLG. This requires a totally different response from the standard 1-1-1 with no push (whereas you make minimal army early on and chrono out probes against the standard sit-on-your-ass-while-doing-111-build, but need army against the bomber opening). Not to forget that you will want sentries against early rax pressure, something you do not want against the thor build this topic is about.
Because this is a game of imperfect information, you have to create that narrative inside your head, where you subconsciously give odds to the builds he may be doing. If you see 4-5 marines at the top of his ramp, or a bunker filled with marines, you still don't know if he's going for a factory/starport-based play, he may have 2 rax behind that massing up marauders. However, you have to make that semi-assumption because it's usually that. That's the big problem with this build - you need an entirely different strategy against this then against another opening which looks exactly the same from the protoss point of view up until it is too late (and I would argue even the observer scouts the build too late... I'm just a protoss who makes a blind immortal and chronos it out immediately right after the obs and I still didn't have 2 immortals when his push arrived, I had to wait for a few seconds and let my expo take the damage before it popped and this was non-stop with perfect chronos).
Is it possible to skip the robo, get a sentry or two, make more zealots, and get hallucination? It saves you minerals and costs less gas (since you'll probably get a sentry or two anyway) than the robo/observer, and lets you get another gateway which helps hold the push better than the robo does with the extra zealots. I'd have to test it, I suspect the hallucination comes out too late even with chrono boost, but your army would be a little bit bigger at the appropriate time, especially since you'd only get one geyser and not two (more probes on minerals).
Hm... a decently fast warpgate finishes at 6:15 right? Hallucination should be done by 7:00 then, assuming you burn a chrono or two on it, since hallucination takes a minute to research. The nice thing is though, as soon as you hallucinate you instantly can scout rather than having to wait for an obs to build and fly there.
On September 14 2011 02:34 the p00n wrote: I will just reply a bit to everyone as most are saying the same thing.
First, I did poke up with my initial stalker (didn't bring zealot though), he had no bunker and 5 marines, you can only do so much poking when he has the ramp + micro and this is going to be even harder when the patch limits the vision up ramps. I know from experience that you can't all-in a terran with warpgates if he is going for a 1-1-1 or mech-oriented play, as the tank with autorepair (or a bunker) will just deal too much dps.
Some people suggested something which boils down to 'just make more units' - that is actually not possible, you do not have the resources or time while expanding. Don't forget that the terran doesn't have to do this early push, if he sees no expo he can just stay on 1 base as well.
You cannot stay on 1 base, because the terran will have the advantage due to his unit composition (mainly the banshees) when on limited resources (both 1basing). Not to forget that with the raven denying your obs, he can ninja a 2nd command center or simply float his starting orbital to his natural, something you cannot do. I actually played some test games against the common/standard 1-1-1 with a friend where we both agree to stay on 1 base, the Protoss always lost - the only reason 1 base play works against 1-1-1 is because the Terran moves out at a certain point in time, whereas he has absolutely no motivation to move out and can just mass up units, moving out only when the protoss makes an additional nexus. Playing 1base against 1-1-1 is simply hoping he will attack you, which he doesn't have to do because the longer the game stays 1-1 base, the bigger the advantage gets for the terran.
Another issue is scouting; yes you can scout him at a certain point in time if you're going for a robo expansion, but the obs will arrive later than you think. Save strange cheeses, the only information you can acquire with your scouting probe is whether he made a refinery or not, as he doesn't have to show his add-on and can always cancel his 2nd marine. Later on you can poke up the ramp, some terrans will show you the 2nd marine (I don't know why?) which tells you he didn't make an add-on, but if you see 1 marine you are still in the dark - you can decide to suicide your probe in and hope it gets enough vision of the base to see what's going on, but an intelligent terran will either have a wall or have his barracks further back, denying you information. You don't really want to sac the probe anyway, you need it at the bottom of his ramp to see if he's moving out with stuff.
With the stalker, you can get info on the early army composition or if he has a bunker. This is a fairly large tell, but it's not that great - he can do the bomber pressure opening (1rax reactor, 1 tech lab, go after first marauder with concussive) and hide his marauders, something we have seen countless times in high-level games, i.e. MLG. This requires a totally different response from the standard 1-1-1 with no push (whereas you make minimal army early on and chrono out probes against the standard sit-on-your-ass-while-doing-111-build, but need army against the bomber opening). Not to forget that you will want sentries against early rax pressure, something you do not want against the thor build this topic is about.
Because this is a game of imperfect information, you have to create that narrative inside your head, where you subconsciously give odds to the builds he may be doing. If you see 4-5 marines at the top of his ramp, or a bunker filled with marines, you still don't know if he's going for a factory/starport-based play, he may have 2 rax behind that massing up marauders. However, you have to make that semi-assumption because it's usually that. That's the big problem with this build - you need an entirely different strategy against this then against another opening which looks exactly the same from the protoss point of view up until it is too late (and I would argue even the observer scouts the build too late... I'm just a protoss who makes a blind immortal and chronos it out immediately right after the obs and I still didn't have 2 immortals when his push arrived, I had to wait for a few seconds and let my expo take the damage before it popped and this was non-stop with perfect chronos).
Is it possible to skip the robo, get a sentry or two, make more zealots, and get hallucination? It saves you minerals and costs less gas (since you'll probably get a sentry or two anyway) than the robo/observer, and lets you get another gateway which helps hold the push better than the robo does with the extra zealots. I'd have to test it, I suspect the hallucination comes out too late even with chrono boost, but your army would be a little bit bigger at the appropriate time, especially since you'd only get one geyser and not two (more probes on minerals).
What are you going to do against a cloaked banshee, which looks -exactly- the same as this? Also, I'm not even sure if skipping the robo is the correct play if you somehow have the info that it isn't cloak banshee due to having no immortal(s).
This is a problem. Since your scout doesn't happen until a little after 7:00 with hallucinate, if he's sprinting for cloak you may not be able to react.
Just a note to add: An armory requires 65 seconds to build. A tech lab requires 25 seconds, a tank requires 45 seconds, which sums to 70. So even with one tank you're still getting the thor only five seconds later than a true "thor rush". Otherwise your factory is sitting idle for 40 seconds. The only thing delaying the true thor rush is the 50 gas to the reactor, which clearly pays off for the terran in extra marines.
As people said, the best thing against this is to attempt to kite marines back to your own base with stalkers. However, if he's not awful this can be really difficult because of that one tank, and because he might chase you with groups of marines, clear watchtowers, etc. Someone should check in a unit tester and see if it's advantageous to kite the marines anyway and ignore the tank damage. That way at least his marines will be weaker during the fight, and they deal the real dps. If the marine count is down the immortal will have a much much easier time dealing with the thor. The last thing I can say: SCVs require 5 stalker shots, or two zealot hits and two stalker shots, or three zealot hits. You have to do some pro huk-style micro and multibox your stalkers and zealots to kill SCVs efficiently.
And differentiating this from a 1/1/1 is kind of silly. We should call it the Thor 1/1/1. This is a form of 1/1/1 that delays the banshees for a faster thor.
On September 14 2011 01:49 Blazinghand wrote: That sounds like it would work, but bear in mind that whatever build you go has to work equally well (or at least passably well) against other builds that scout the same as this one until it can get a good scout off. How do you differentiate this from marine/tank/banshee allin in time? 2 sentries and 1 stalker seems like it might just lose to 2 banshees, but I'm not sure.
The current PvT dynamic is that you take build order losses 1/3rd of the time. That's just how it works. You can't scout the difference between 2/3/4 rax before factory, 1 base tech, and 1 rax FE before observers or them moving out if they're not retarded, so you have to choose what you're going to lose to. Every Protoss opening possible outright loses to one of those three builds. There is nothing that is safe against all three.
On September 14 2011 02:58 CowMoo wrote: Just a note to add: An armory requires 65 seconds to build. A tech lab requires 25 seconds, a tank requires 45 seconds, which sums to 70. So even with one tank you're still getting the thor only five seconds later than a true "thor rush". Otherwise your factory is sitting idle for 40 seconds. The only thing delaying the true thor rush is the 50 gas to the reactor, which clearly pays off for the terran in extra marines.
As people said, the best thing against this is to attempt to kite marines back to your own base with stalkers. However, if he's not awful this can be really difficult because of that one tank, and because he might chase you with groups of marines, clear watchtowers, etc. Someone should check in a unit tester and see if it's advantageous to kite the marines anyway and ignore the tank damage. That way at least his marines will be weaker during the fight, and they deal the real dps. If the marine count is down the immortal will have a much much easier time dealing with the thor. The last thing I can say: SCVs require 5 stalker shots, or two zealot hits and two stalker shots, or three zealot hits. You have to do some pro huk-style micro and multibox your stalkers and zealots to kill SCVs efficiently.
And differentiating this from a 1/1/1 is kind of silly. We should call it the Thor 1/1/1. This is a form of 1/1/1 that delays the banshees for a faster thor.
You make some great points here about timing and kiting. I agree that kiting against a range 7 tank will be very difficult. A canny terran player will cluster his marines around his tank and make it dangerous for your to kite.
I disagree with the possibility of silliness in my scouting differentiation suggestions: I'm not differentiating it from a 1/1/1, and you can call it whatever you want. My point is that this push functions differently than a 1/1/1 push, but scouts the same until you get an observer in the base. This means that any build order that deals with this push has to be the same as a build order that stops a standard 1/1/1 push up until you get the observer in and scout the armory.
On September 14 2011 01:49 Blazinghand wrote: That sounds like it would work, but bear in mind that whatever build you go has to work equally well (or at least passably well) against other builds that scout the same as this one until it can get a good scout off. How do you differentiate this from marine/tank/banshee allin in time? 2 sentries and 1 stalker seems like it might just lose to 2 banshees, but I'm not sure.
The current PvT dynamic is that you take build order losses 1/3rd of the time. That's just how it works. You can't scout the difference between 2/3/4 rax before factory openings, 1 base tech, and 1 rax FE before observers or them moving out if they're not retarded, so you have to choose what you're going to lose to. Every Protoss opening possible outright loses to one of those three builds. There is nothing that is safe against all three.
It's really build order loss 33% of the time for Protoss? So to get a 50% win rate against terran, you need to win a huge majority of your non-build-order-loss games? >.> I was not aware. My bad.
If anyone wants to try some stuff against this build, send me a PM. I'm a Protoss player but I also know a lot of variations of the 1-1-1 build so I can play either side, maybe we can mess around and see if we can come up with something.
damnit. I have been using this build on ladder for months. :-( now it's exposed!
OK so the weaknesses are very few, but it is simply an auto loss for terran if you go DT expand from the start. I have less success with it on large maps for obvious reasons, but in general, it destroys 99% of protoss current standard openings because there is simply not enough dps to take down the shere number of units / composition. If microed perfectly by protoss it requires marine kiting and a lot of early pressure. It's also surprisingly strong against zerg - as long as they didnt go for a baneling bust or an early baneling nest in general (if you deny scouting you can be pretty safe with it)
It simply requires all energy to be used on mules, and since there is only one OC scans will be low. Good micro with DT's stomps this build if you can manage to scout it early. If you can't scout it, indeed, it's a build order loss unless you have incredibly strong micro.
Prepare to see this on ladder for the next week at least
On September 14 2011 03:25 malaan wrote: It simply requires all energy to be used on mules, and since there is only one OC scans will be low. Good micro with DT's stomps this build if you can manage to scout it early. If you can't scout it, indeed, it's a build order loss unless you have incredibly strong micro.
I don't think that this build scouts any differently from a 1/1/1-- and given that many 1/1/1s make an initial raven, a 2 gate DT expo (or some variant) is straight-up build order loss against a build that scouts just like this. Bear in mind that a DT expo or DT rush isn't able to effectively scout this build until well after the dark shrine has begun; you won't get past the wall and marine bunker, so the possibility of a raven allin is just too coinflippy.
The t build is terrible.. It's like any other thor rush except with a tank. I guarantee that if you pulled every single probe that you had when the push came to surround the army you would have won without losing almost anything. These builds have been around for a long time and there has been a lot of discussion on how to beat them. There is a reason they all went away.. they are just bad builds; 1 Immortal + gw units /w GS + a probe pull instantly wins. It doesn't matter if there's a "transition." If he loses that army and scvs, the game is over.
2 variations of this build: One is the +1 armor/2 thor/strike cannon timing push. (An example from old days, not best response by P by any means, and Trump didn't even get +1 armor like he could: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142179-1v1-terran-protoss-lost-temple) The other is just the 1 thor/strike cannon timing push.
The 2 thor variation is loss vs DT based builds, but stronger vs any robo builds (colossus/immortals, because SC 1 shots them).
The second one is alright vs robo, but easier to transition if P goes voidrays or DT's (ie. early double gas openings) into vikings or raven. You need to wall in with something though to hold off until your raven pops in this build. Personally, if I scouted a double gas opening from P though, I'd just not take my second gas, and do a different build, like normal 1/1/1, or 2 raxx expand with a few turrets into a nice ghost timing push...
On September 14 2011 02:17 Binabik wrote: Don't go for an expansion on Xel'Naga unless you scout a Command Center
1 base vs a 1 base Terran is total suicide. He has mules and you don't, he can move his OC down to his natural when the main is mined out, you can't. You will lose, horribly, every time.
Except it's impossible to hold your natural against 1/1/1 on Xel'Naga.
If one base was as blatantly impossible as you make it sound, you'd think a player like kiwikaki wouldn't even think of trying a 1base build at mlg.
Yes, it may or may not be the appropriate answer, but it's not as fucking horrible as you're trying to sell.
I disagree with strike cannon. Given that it was reverted back to energy, it takes a fair amount of time to build up enough to use it-- so you don't see this as much any more. It delays the push quite a bit to wait for strike cannon energy.
Also, usually you need your 2nd gas to 1/1/1 effectively unless you're not getting addons or not making tanks or something.
I think a 3 gate stargate sentry contain will still beat this. Yes, the Thor will break the contain as soon as it comes down the ramp, but as the marine and tank will be behind, you can likely do a small bit of damage and maybe even FF the ramp behind the thor, just to delay the rush further. Guardian shield and zealots, CB out a 2nd VR should all do quite well. If he has to be attacking your VR with his thor or better yet, marines, your zealots are going to be ripping marines/scvs up. Plus 2 VR won’t take that much damage from a thor; and they should be able to kill the tank pretty quick. With all that plus pulling a few probes I think you could hold the push.
And with a proxied pylon in Tasteless’s secret hallway (that they probably won’t waste a lot of time going up the secret hallway to kill) as soon as you believe you have it held, warp in zealots to put on the killing blow.
Edit: I am currently going 3 gate stargate contain every time I see gas. You have to be really good about scouting as you move out to set up the contain, it can defend a 3 rax stim timing, but it can not contain that build usually. Genuis has been doing this build a lot lately, and I really like it vs the current terran styles.
On September 14 2011 04:16 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: I think a 3 gate stargate sentry contain will still beat this. Yes, the Thor will break the contain as soon as it comes down the ramp, but as the marine and tank will be behind, you can likely do a small bit of damage and maybe even FF the ramp behind the thor, just to delay the rush further. Guardian shield and zealots, CB out a 2nd VR should all do quite well. If he has to be attacking your VR with his thor or better yet, marines, your zealots are going to be ripping marines/scvs up. Plus 2 VR won’t take that much damage from a thor; and they should be able to kill the tank pretty quick. With all that plus pulling a few probes I think you could hold the push.
And with a proxied pylon in Tasteless’s secret hallway (that they probably won’t waste a lot of time going up the secret hallway to kill) as soon as you believe you have it held, warp in zealots to put on the killing blow.
Sounds like a good plan. What should you scout for to make the decision to go for a 3 gate stargate sentry contain, and when do you lay down your stargate?
On September 14 2011 04:16 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: Edit: I am currently going 3 gate stargate contain every time I see gas. You have to be really good about scouting as you move out to set up the contain, it can defend a 3 rax stim timing, but it can not contain that build usually. Genuis has been doing this build a lot lately, and I really like it vs the current terran styles.
So against a 1 rax reactor FE, a 1/1/1 banshee cloak rush or allin, and the thor rush, all of which are 12 rax 13 refinery 15 orbital -> scouting probe destroyed (then the build branches), you'll be going 3 gate stargate FF contain? Sounds like it could be pretty good re: preventing your opponent from moving out. It seems risky though since they may have viking tech and you don't know.
i have a theory on protoss builds and economic power. im a master toss currently and i havnt perfected this idea yet, but i am trying more and more to design builds that try to max out on economy as much as it can
it is true that you cannot 1base against a terran, it is suicide. however many protosses are using these builds that cut economy in order to get out an expansion faster. in my opinion thats a huge reason why they are losing to this 1base terran attacks
I guess i dont have the numbers to prove it, but just thinking about it makes me think its a very bad idea to be cutting economy in order to expand faster. Its counter intuitive. I guess i would have to run the final numbers to know the truth but heres the general idea of what im trying to say.
First i will clarify. what is "cutting economy" for protoss? simply put, cutting economy for protoss is where your nexus isnt building probes (thus you are losing possible economy), AND anytime you use chronoboost on something other than probes counts as cuttong economy and also its cutting economy whenever your nexus has over 25 energy and isnt using it on chronoboosting out more probes. Chronoboost is the toss macro mechanic and i think so many tosses are handicapping themselves by using these outdated builds that save chronoboost or use it on the gateway when it should be possible to design a build that NEVER cuts economy and thus ends up being stronger overall
Using a chronoboost on a gateway makes it produce at 150% for 20 seconds. Using chronoboost on probes gives you more economy, which can let you build an extra gateway faster, which will give you two gateways FOREVER instead of 1.5 gateways for only 20 seconds
so far what im trying to design builds around is this concept The rule of safe play for protoss: A protoss should never cut economy before he has 22 probes (19 on minerals, 3 on gas) or 25 (if two gasses are taken). If a protoss does cut economy before that point, he is purposely harming himself, many times for no reason at all. Even if the protoss is cutting economy to get up a faster expansion its probably a bad idea because the economy he cuts turns out to be more important than the slightly faster expansion. If a protoss is expanding he shouldnt do so at the expense of this rule.
There are builds out there like 16nexus that cut no economy while expanding fast and thus follow the above rule. That would put you super ahead if you could actually pull it off. But 16nexus is a bad build in PvT we all know that. But in terms of build properties, 16nexus is a expansion build that follows the above rule.
Even terrans are following this rule most of the time. In most terran fast expand builds a terran usually never cuts scv's or orbital time before expanding. A terran always makes optimal scv amounts, starts his orbital, and then expands and even while expanding the terran is constantly making scv's and muling.
A terran thats expanding is normally cutting no economy while expanding.
Also, almost every terra that is 1basing will not cut scv's and get out the standard orbital and constantly mule and make scv's as well.
many protosses are using builds that cut economy to get out a faster nexus. i think the superior build would be one that cuts no economy at all and throws up the expansion "when it can" while following this rule.
pretty much, while watching your replay i saw many moments where you were "cutting economy". i think if you test out build ideas that cut no economy, and you throw up a expansion when resources permit, you will probably end up being alot stronger against these 1base-terrans.
I agree that you should expand if you plan on winning against a 1base-terran, however i think in the future tosses will realize its better to max out your economic horsepower on your 1base as much as you can and only expand "when you can" instead of trying to sacrifice some of your economic horsepower to get out your expansion faster.
your "economic horsepower" is your nexus and the chronoboost. all of it should be used on probes, while playing normally, and you should expand once you have 400 minerals OR if you end up in a slugfest with your enemy in the early game and you find yourself with 25 probes and no expansion, thats when you are now allowed to STOP making probes (since your already saturated) and save up and expand when you can. remember if you get into a slugfest with your enemy early game, chances are he also has a delayed expansion, so dont worry about it. Maxing out your economic horsepower early game will always be the safest way to play because it leads to a bigger army later on with the resources to expand as well
Except you get heavy diminishing returns after 16 probes on mins so it actually does make sense to cut 1 base economy to get your 2nd mineral line up and running. that's why a lot of expansion builds cut at ~30 food to put down the nexus (2 gas 1 gate fe builds): 1 stalker, 2 sentry, 6 probe on gas, 17 probe on min, or huk 20 food expand, 1 probe scout 3 probe on gas 16 probe on minerals
On September 14 2011 05:10 Alejandrisha wrote: Except you get heavy diminishing returns after 16 probes on mins so it actually does make sense to cut 1 base economy to get your 2nd mineral line up and running. that's why a lot of expansion builds cut at ~30 food to put down the nexus (2 gas 1 gate fe builds): 1 stalker, 2 sentry, 6 probe on gas, 17 probe on min, or huk 20 food expand, 1 probe scout 3 probe on gas 16 probe on minerals
These numbers aren't just by coincidence
Your right this is only a theory i have and im going to collect the numbers soon to see if my theory is true or not
What i plan to do is make a replay to test 16 vs 19 probes on minerals. The replays income-tracker i feel is not accurate enough so i will actually spend a minute and count how many minerals are actually gathered in that minute to see the real income difference.
id say if going from 16 to 19 harvesters produced a 80 mineral difference then it would be beneficial.
getting +80 income by going from 16 to 19 is a very good economic benefit for the 150 minerals spent in my opinion. Otherwise you would have to wait and stop at 16, wait for 400 minerals, then make your expansion, then wait for it to build. In all that time you could have possibly had +80 income for a few minutes, which would last to the end of the game
Big A is right. at 16 probes on minerals you're raking in a comfortable ~675 minerals per minute, whereas at 24 on minerals (maximum) you only up to ~810 minerals per minute. Instead of having 8 more mineral-probes, it's better to grab another nexus, which will pay for itself much more quickly. So in a sense, you're "cutting nexus" when you make this additional probes after optimal saturation, since they're mining below full efficiency, and cutting/delaying your expo is more economically harmful than cutting a few probes, especially since you can bank a little chrono boost if you need to.
Every second you delay your nexus is another second that all your mineral probes after the 16th mineral-probe are mining substantially slower.
On September 14 2011 05:17 Blazinghand wrote: Big A is right. at 16 probes on minerals you're raking in a comfortable ~675 minerals per minute, whereas at 24 on minerals (maximum) you only up to ~810 minerals per minute. Instead of having 8 more mineral-probes, it's better to grab another nexus, which will pay for itself much more quickly. So in a sense, you're "cutting nexus" when you make this additional probes after optimal saturation, since they're mining below full efficiency, and cutting/delaying your expo is more economically harmful than cutting a few probes, especially since you can bank a little chrono boost if you need to.
Every second you delay your nexus is another second that all your mineral probes after the 16th mineral-probe are mining substantially slower.
it sounds like you are judging this by intuition?
someone should test this. the dude who suggested it. gogogo. should be easy to test, right? just compare which build mines more minerals.
if he turns out to be right, i will make a rant blog about how people stubbornly turn any new idea down, using only their intuition to judge. i bet people were the same when they were discussing vultures in early BW .
On September 14 2011 04:03 tuestresfat wrote: Except it's impossible to hold your natural against 1/1/1 on Xel'Naga.
If one base was as blatantly impossible as you make it sound, you'd think a player like kiwikaki wouldn't even think of trying a 1base build at mlg.
Yes, it may or may not be the appropriate answer, but it's not as fucking horrible as you're trying to sell.
This is not true. If you open 1 gate robo expo you can easily hold your natural against 1/1/1. The key to beating 1/1/1 is to have several immortals out. Getting robo after nexus means you don't have enough time to get them out, that's why 1/2 gate FE dies to 1/1/1.
Of course the problem is the 1 gate robo opening loses to a 2 rax or 3 rax opening, but that is of course the point. That's why 1/1/1 is so strong and Terran is dominating Protoss, because you have a 1/3 chance of simply losing every game when you pick the wrong opening build against what they're doing. You can open 2 gate robo expo or 3 gate robo expo, and be safe against 2/3 rax as well as 1/1/1, but then you get killed by 1 rax FE.
We'll see if the 6 range immortal change allows you to defeat 2 rax pressure with a 1 gate robo expo opening. If it does, then Protoss will have a relatively safe opening again.
On September 14 2011 05:17 Blazinghand wrote: Big A is right. at 16 probes on minerals you're raking in a comfortable ~675 minerals per minute, whereas at 24 on minerals (maximum) you only up to ~810 minerals per minute. Instead of having 8 more mineral-probes, it's better to grab another nexus, which will pay for itself much more quickly. So in a sense, you're "cutting nexus" when you make this additional probes after optimal saturation, since they're mining below full efficiency, and cutting/delaying your expo is more economically harmful than cutting a few probes, especially since you can bank a little chrono boost if you need to.
Every second you delay your nexus is another second that all your mineral probes after the 16th mineral-probe are mining substantially slower.
it sounds like you are judging this by intuition?
someone should test this. the dude who suggested it. gogogo. should be easy to test, right? just compare which build mines more minerals.
if he turns out to be right, i will make a rant blog about how people stubbornly turn any new idea down, using only their intuition to judge. i bet people were the same when they were discussing vultures in early BW .
I agree; I think this idea is worth testing. I am not a stubborn man, however, and was just showing Big A's rationalization for an early nexus, not claiming that it was impossible that I was wrong, but noting that there are opportunity costs to delaying the nexus. Please do not attribute such traits to me incorrectly.
i have a theory on protoss builds and economic power. im a master toss currently and i havnt perfected this idea yet, but i am trying more and more to design builds that try to max out on economy as much as it can
it is true that you cannot 1base against a terran, it is suicide. however many protosses are using these builds that cut economy in order to get out an expansion faster. in my opinion thats a huge reason why they are losing to this 1base terran attacks
I guess i dont have the numbers to prove it, but just thinking about it makes me think its a very bad idea to be cutting economy in order to expand faster. Its counter intuitive. I guess i would have to run the final numbers to know the truth but heres the general idea of what im trying to say.
First i will clarify. what is "cutting economy" for protoss? simply put, cutting economy for protoss is where your nexus isnt building probes (thus you are losing possible economy), AND anytime you use chronoboost on something other than probes counts as cuttong economy and also its cutting economy whenever your nexus has over 25 energy and isnt using it on chronoboosting out more probes. Chronoboost is the toss macro mechanic and i think so many tosses are handicapping themselves by using these outdated builds that save chronoboost or use it on the gateway when it should be possible to design a build that NEVER cuts economy and thus ends up being stronger overall
Using a chronoboost on a gateway makes it produce at 150% for 20 seconds. Using chronoboost on probes gives you more economy, which can let you build an extra gateway faster, which will give you two gateways FOREVER instead of 1.5 gateways for only 20 seconds
so far what im trying to design builds around is this concept The rule of safe play for protoss: A protoss should never cut economy before he has 22 probes (19 on minerals, 3 on gas) or 25 (if two gasses are taken). If a protoss does cut economy before that point, he is purposely harming himself, many times for no reason at all. Even if the protoss is cutting economy to get up a faster expansion its probably a bad idea because the economy he cuts turns out to be more important than the slightly faster expansion. If a protoss is expanding he shouldnt do so at the expense of this rule.
There are builds out there like 16nexus that cut no economy while expanding fast and thus follow the above rule. That would put you super ahead if you could actually pull it off. But 16nexus is a bad build in PvT we all know that. But in terms of build properties, 16nexus is a expansion build that follows the above rule.
Even terrans are following this rule most of the time. In most terran fast expand builds a terran usually never cuts scv's or orbital time before expanding. A terran always makes optimal scv amounts, starts his orbital, and then expands and even while expanding the terran is constantly making scv's and muling.
A terran thats expanding is normally cutting no economy while expanding.
Also, almost every terra that is 1basing will not cut scv's and get out the standard orbital and constantly mule and make scv's as well.
many protosses are using builds that cut economy to get out a faster nexus. i think the superior build would be one that cuts no economy at all and throws up the expansion "when it can" while following this rule.
pretty much, while watching your replay i saw many moments where you were "cutting economy". i think if you test out build ideas that cut no economy, and you throw up a expansion when resources permit, you will probably end up being alot stronger against these 1base-terrans.
I agree that you should expand if you plan on winning against a 1base-terran, however i think in the future tosses will realize its better to max out your economic horsepower on your 1base as much as you can and only expand "when you can" instead of trying to sacrifice some of your economic horsepower to get out your expansion faster.
your "economic horsepower" is your nexus and the chronoboost. all of it should be used on probes, while playing normally, and you should expand once you have 400 minerals OR if you end up in a slugfest with your enemy in the early game and you find yourself with 25 probes and no expansion, thats when you are now allowed to STOP making probes (since your already saturated) and save up and expand when you can. remember if you get into a slugfest with your enemy early game, chances are he also has a delayed expansion, so dont worry about it. Maxing out your economic horsepower early game will always be the safest way to play because it leads to a bigger army later on with the resources to expand as well
You could also see it the other way around. Builds like the 1 Gate FE dont cut Probes to build the Nexus. Up to the point where the Nexus gets planted there are almost no cuts whatsoever (except not spending more than 3 CB maybe). Instead they cut econ temporary to get up the Nexus simultaneously with the necessary Army-Value to not die to certain Aggression timings. You said yourself that 16 Nexus PvT is a bad idea most times. 1 Gate FE avoids the weeknesses of 16 Nexus and gets the fastest possible Nexus after that and just then cuts econ to get said Units. Next logical step are Maps/Spawns were 2 Rax would kill you with 1 Gate FE and on these you have to do a 2 Gate FE and cut econ afterwards to not die to the chronologic next timing, like fast 1/1/1 and so on.
Imho the next step in the Evolution of FE-Builds is figuring out the arrangement of 2 Gates (which are needed to reliable hold of 2 Rax), Probeproduction & Nexus-Timing (accumulated Eco over time) and Robo-Timing (which combines safety against Cloak, 3 Rax and later Timings, and reliable Scouting) depending on each Map (aka Rush-Distance). Ideally a FE build has to hold against the map/spawn-specific 2 Rax blindly (because you can just identify indicators if terrans does it right), execute the most economic efficient probe/nexus-timing afterwards and has to offer valid intel right when the Expansion finishes so one knows if he has to prepare for the next timing or is able to power.
I am doing a lot of calculation about the Probe/Nexus-Timing lately, hopefully I get to solid conclusions soon and be able to write everything down.
I think the answer is so simple that we miss it. A standard 4-gate will destroy his build. He has 9 unupgraded marines at 5:55. I believe a standard 4 gate is an excellent counter to any 1-1-1 build because the tech will slow him down. I think we Protoss players are losing because of the metagame. We don't think to go 4 gate because it was nerfed months ago. Terrans react to our newer expand builds by teching up. They feel safe in the knowledge that Protoss players almost never 4 gate against terran anymore. I do not pretend to be a masters player, but that is my opinion anyway.
On September 14 2011 03:54 Alejandrisha wrote: The t build is terrible.. It's like any other thor rush except with a tank. I guarantee that if you pulled every single probe that you had when the push came to surround the army you would have won without losing almost anything. These builds have been around for a long time and there has been a lot of discussion on how to beat them. There is a reason they all went away.. they are just bad builds; 1 Immortal + gw units /w GS + a probe pull instantly wins. It doesn't matter if there's a "transition." If he loses that army and scvs, the game is over.
Just to clarify, do you recommend pulling every probe against early Thor/Marine attacks? I know you said every probe in this post but I'm not sure whether that was for the sake of argument or whether that's the best response to the situation. (I lose to Thor/Marine all-ins more than I care to admit)
On September 14 2011 07:51 Salient wrote: I think the answer is so simple that we miss it. A standard 4-gate will destroy his build. He has 9 unupgraded marines at 5:55. I believe a standard 4 gate is an excellent counter to any 1-1-1 build because the tech will slow him down. I think we Protoss players are losing because of the metagame. We don't think to go 4 gate because it was nerfed months ago. Terrans react to our newer expand builds by teching up. They feel safe in the knowledge that Protoss players almost never 4 gate against terran anymore. I do not pretend to be a masters player, but that is my opinion anyway.
I disagree. Although I wouldn't rule out early pressure in general, Terran's ability to scout and make bunkers is pretty strong. The 4 warpgate rush is eminently scoutable, and as a general rule you make a bunker if you sense something is amiss. If your 4 warpgate rush fails you're really really far behind, too, since the terran player has been teching.
Lastly, you have to make the decision to 4 warpgate rush very early, before you know what he's doing. What if he's doing something different that gets a reactor, and he's going to make bunkers? clearly this will not be easy.
On September 14 2011 03:54 Alejandrisha wrote: The t build is terrible.. It's like any other thor rush except with a tank. I guarantee that if you pulled every single probe that you had when the push came to surround the army you would have won without losing almost anything. These builds have been around for a long time and there has been a lot of discussion on how to beat them. There is a reason they all went away.. they are just bad builds; 1 Immortal + gw units /w GS + a probe pull instantly wins. It doesn't matter if there's a "transition." If he loses that army and scvs, the game is over.
Just to clarify, do you recommend pulling every probe against early Thor/Marine attacks? I know you said every probe in this post but I'm not sure whether that was for the sake of argument or whether that's the best response to the situation. (I lose to Thor/Marine all-ins more than I care to admit)
I think he's talking about the fact that when terran pulls scvs, he's already taken a lot of economic damage, so if you pull probes and that causes you to hold, you'll probably be ahead.
basically its the same thing, get an expo and pump zeal immortal sentry... stalkers are kind of bad, unless its possible to do alot of kiting, but when it comes time to fight they just get eaten alive.
hister's pvt immortal play would own this build HARD. i played against a thor into banshee all in which died to hister's build. focus fire immortals onto tank/thor with guardian shield and +1 armor, marines do jack squat. if he has banshees do 1 warp in of stalkers after the ground army is gone and gg
I've been doing this build for a while. It's more deadly if it's done by delaying the starport and opting for siege mode while te Thor is building instead. It will finish before your push hits. It's good to siege that one tank below the ramp.
lol its the basic thor rush with a tank mixed in. he gets a slightly earlier gas so he can afford the tank and the thor without delay. he's just utilizing the lost factory building time while your waiting for the armory to finish. theres nothing new here
On September 14 2011 07:51 Salient wrote: I think the answer is so simple that we miss it. A standard 4-gate will destroy his build. He has 9 unupgraded marines at 5:55. I believe a standard 4 gate is an excellent counter to any 1-1-1 build because the tech will slow him down. I think we Protoss players are losing because of the metagame. We don't think to go 4 gate because it was nerfed months ago. Terrans react to our newer expand builds by teching up. They feel safe in the knowledge that Protoss players almost never 4 gate against terran anymore. I do not pretend to be a masters player, but that is my opinion anyway.
I disagree. Although I wouldn't rule out early pressure in general, Terran's ability to scout and make bunkers is pretty strong. The 4 warpgate rush is eminently scoutable, and as a general rule you make a bunker if you sense something is amiss. If your 4 warpgate rush fails you're really really far behind, too, since the terran player has been teching.
Lastly, you have to make the decision to 4 warpgate rush very early, before you know what he's doing. What if he's doing something different that gets a reactor, and he's going to make bunkers? clearly this will not be easy.
On September 14 2011 03:54 Alejandrisha wrote: The t build is terrible.. It's like any other thor rush except with a tank. I guarantee that if you pulled every single probe that you had when the push came to surround the army you would have won without losing almost anything. These builds have been around for a long time and there has been a lot of discussion on how to beat them. There is a reason they all went away.. they are just bad builds; 1 Immortal + gw units /w GS + a probe pull instantly wins. It doesn't matter if there's a "transition." If he loses that army and scvs, the game is over.
Just to clarify, do you recommend pulling every probe against early Thor/Marine attacks? I know you said every probe in this post but I'm not sure whether that was for the sake of argument or whether that's the best response to the situation. (I lose to Thor/Marine all-ins more than I care to admit)
I think he's talking about the fact that when terran pulls scvs, he's already taken a lot of economic damage, so if you pull probes and that causes you to hold, you'll probably be ahead.
I want to point out that if terran does a thor/marine rush, yeah, you should pull probes. In general, the larger your force, the less damage you take total during a fight. 5 zealots beat 10 zerglings, but 20 zealots absolutely demolish 10 zerglings, you take no damage at all. That thor rush is pretty damn all-inish, if you smash it with few losses, it's pretty much GG, so it's okay to suffer some probe losses to smash it, so yeah, pull probes against any thor rush build.
As protoss, you can't really scout the difference between Thor/Marine and standard 1/1/1 all-in so you need to be prepared for both.
On September 14 2011 03:25 malaan wrote:
it is simply an auto loss for terran if you go DT expand from the start.
+2
Everyone says FE or DTs is the best way to counter 1/1/1 but when I play TvP with the intent to 1/1/1, I HOPE that my opponent does one of those two things because it is an auto-win for me.
4k.Warden is way better than I'll ever be, this isn't just Ugly, the random Platinum scrub talking, though I have had a lot of success with what little time I have to play.
I poke with a hellion as soon as factory is done. FE by Toss = immediate armory, move out with 8 SCVs repairing first thor + marines. Auto-win.
If I see a forge and no expo, I know he is 1) - hiding something, 2) - does not want cloaked banshees in his base so badly that he is preparing for it in the only way possible without a robo, so I assume DTs and get a Raven. If I see 3 gate 2 gas no Robo, I assume VR or DTs and get 2 turrets or a really fast raven depending on my tech path. Once I see the first DT at my base I can kill you with... anything, really. You have no money, no charge, no blink, no HT. You have to do damage with DTs or you die and they are pretty easy to scout.
If I see 3 gate 2 gas, heavy sentries like you would against Zerg to expand safely as Protoss, Thor 1-A FTW because the sentries are useless and he can only afford a few zealots. Stargate = Thor, 1-A FTW as soon as he shows up at your base. 4 gate would be a good counter if your Terran opponent blindly goes for Thors and you somehow learn he isn't going bio without an observer, but if he's not dumb he see's you 4 gating and 1/1/1 cloaked banshee FTW.
What I have struggled against with BOTH builds as T is 1 gate robo + 2 more gates that engages me in the middle of the map.
When I try to Thor rush my buddy and he has a fast Robo, he knows the Thor is coming because his observer will find my factory, armory and/or lack of air units, so he will 1) churn stalkers and just kite my marines to death while the Thor slowly makes his way across the map, only to discover that his entourage did not survive, or 2, chrono boost out 3-4 immortals, which will wreck my Thor fast. If I wait for 2-3 Thors, he will have enough blink stalkers to 1) do huge damage to my base when I am in the middle of the map, and then run back to defend or 2) kite me with blink, or 4) go one base colossus/zealot which rapes marine/thor so so so hard. He beats me so badly when he gets a fast Robo that I don't even try Thors, I continue on to 1/1/1 Banshee Tank Marine all-in which, coincidentally, is most easily beaten with the same build order and structure set.
Obviously the unit comp and engagement are different, but that's for another thread.
On September 14 2011 07:51 Salient wrote: I think the answer is so simple that we miss it. A standard 4-gate will destroy his build. He has 9 unupgraded marines at 5:55. I believe a standard 4 gate is an excellent counter to any 1-1-1 build because the tech will slow him down. I think we Protoss players are losing because of the metagame. We don't think to go 4 gate because it was nerfed months ago. Terrans react to our newer expand builds by teching up. They feel safe in the knowledge that Protoss players almost never 4 gate against terran anymore. I do not pretend to be a masters player, but that is my opinion anyway.
I disagree. Although I wouldn't rule out early pressure in general, Terran's ability to scout and make bunkers is pretty strong. The 4 warpgate rush is eminently scoutable, and as a general rule you make a bunker if you sense something is amiss. If your 4 warpgate rush fails you're really really far behind, too, since the terran player has been teching.
Lastly, you have to make the decision to 4 warpgate rush very early, before you know what he's doing. What if he's doing something different that gets a reactor, and he's going to make bunkers? clearly this will not be easy.
On September 14 2011 08:01 whistle wrote:
On September 14 2011 03:54 Alejandrisha wrote: The t build is terrible.. It's like any other thor rush except with a tank. I guarantee that if you pulled every single probe that you had when the push came to surround the army you would have won without losing almost anything. These builds have been around for a long time and there has been a lot of discussion on how to beat them. There is a reason they all went away.. they are just bad builds; 1 Immortal + gw units /w GS + a probe pull instantly wins. It doesn't matter if there's a "transition." If he loses that army and scvs, the game is over.
Just to clarify, do you recommend pulling every probe against early Thor/Marine attacks? I know you said every probe in this post but I'm not sure whether that was for the sake of argument or whether that's the best response to the situation. (I lose to Thor/Marine all-ins more than I care to admit)
I think he's talking about the fact that when terran pulls scvs, he's already taken a lot of economic damage, so if you pull probes and that causes you to hold, you'll probably be ahead.
I want to point out that if terran does a thor/marine rush, yeah, you should pull probes. In general, the larger your force, the less damage you take total during a fight. 5 zealots beat 10 zerglings, but 20 zealots absolutely demolish 10 zerglings, you take no damage at all. That thor rush is pretty damn all-inish, if you smash it with few losses, it's pretty much GG, so it's okay to suffer some probe losses to smash it, so yeah, pull probes against any thor rush build.
Let me clarify. If he's doing a thor rush, it means he doesn't have siege mode. He is also pulling lots and lots of scvs. You want to throw everything you have ever made in the game at this since he has no follow up and you (should) have a nexus unless you're doing a 1-base build. He doesn't have splash and he has to kill every single one of your units for the rush to actually succeed. So mineral walk your entire probe force (should be up to mid 30s when the push comes) and attack move them as you engage with the rest of your army. There's no way in hell he can kill all of your units and all of your probes. I usually have 20+ probes and a good portion of my army left over so the game is over at that point. If you don't pull probes you could lose, but if you pull probes you should win overwhelmingly.
On September 14 2011 07:51 Salient wrote: I think the answer is so simple that we miss it. A standard 4-gate will destroy his build. He has 9 unupgraded marines at 5:55. I believe a standard 4 gate is an excellent counter to any 1-1-1 build because the tech will slow him down. I think we Protoss players are losing because of the metagame. We don't think to go 4 gate because it was nerfed months ago. Terrans react to our newer expand builds by teching up. They feel safe in the knowledge that Protoss players almost never 4 gate against terran anymore. I do not pretend to be a masters player, but that is my opinion anyway.
I disagree. Although I wouldn't rule out early pressure in general, Terran's ability to scout and make bunkers is pretty strong. The 4 warpgate rush is eminently scoutable, and as a general rule you make a bunker if you sense something is amiss. If your 4 warpgate rush fails you're really really far behind, too, since the terran player has been teching.
Lastly, you have to make the decision to 4 warpgate rush very early, before you know what he's doing. What if he's doing something different that gets a reactor, and he's going to make bunkers? clearly this will not be easy.
On September 14 2011 08:01 whistle wrote:
On September 14 2011 03:54 Alejandrisha wrote: The t build is terrible.. It's like any other thor rush except with a tank. I guarantee that if you pulled every single probe that you had when the push came to surround the army you would have won without losing almost anything. These builds have been around for a long time and there has been a lot of discussion on how to beat them. There is a reason they all went away.. they are just bad builds; 1 Immortal + gw units /w GS + a probe pull instantly wins. It doesn't matter if there's a "transition." If he loses that army and scvs, the game is over.
Just to clarify, do you recommend pulling every probe against early Thor/Marine attacks? I know you said every probe in this post but I'm not sure whether that was for the sake of argument or whether that's the best response to the situation. (I lose to Thor/Marine all-ins more than I care to admit)
I think he's talking about the fact that when terran pulls scvs, he's already taken a lot of economic damage, so if you pull probes and that causes you to hold, you'll probably be ahead.
I want to point out that if terran does a thor/marine rush, yeah, you should pull probes. In general, the larger your force, the less damage you take total during a fight. 5 zealots beat 10 zerglings, but 20 zealots absolutely demolish 10 zerglings, you take no damage at all. That thor rush is pretty damn all-inish, if you smash it with few losses, it's pretty much GG, so it's okay to suffer some probe losses to smash it, so yeah, pull probes against any thor rush build.
Let me clarify. If he's doing a thor rush, it means he doesn't have siege mode. He is also pulling lots and lots of scvs. You want to throw everything you have ever made in the game at this since he has no follow up and you (should) have a nexus unless you're doing a 1-base build. He doesn't have splash and he has to kill every single one of your units for the rush to actually succeed. So mineral walk your entire probe force (should be up to mid 30s when the push comes) and attack move them as you engage with the rest of your army. There's no way in hell he can kill all of your units and all of your probes. I usually have 20+ probes and a good portion of my army left over so the game is over at that point. If you don't pull probes you could lose, but if you pull probes you should win overwhelmingly.
Im Just diamond so I dont really practice the probe pull to attack kind of thing. So when you say mineral walk you mean you want us to pull ALL probes, stack them onto ONE mineral patch then just A Move them with the rest of the army? Sorry for my lack of knowledge but I really want to understand how Im supposed to pull probes to beat the one base since I never do it.
(I know not to pull them against splash units as its not entirely worth it)
a line works just fine.. As long as you can get a decent surround with your probes at the same time you engage with units and with GS edit: yeah it's bad against builds with splash (siege tech), but also against builds that have stim as stim marines pretty much have splash just because of their dps..
On September 14 2011 11:06 Alejandrisha wrote: a line works just fine.. As long as you can get a decent surround with your probes at the same time you engage with units and with GS
So move then A Move for the surround a la Zergling surround kind of thing I guess? If so cool, sounds good. Thanks for the tip Alej
On September 14 2011 11:06 Alejandrisha wrote: a line works just fine.. As long as you can get a decent surround with your probes at the same time you engage with units and with GS
So move then A Move for the surround a la Zergling surround kind of thing I guess? If so cool, sounds good. Thanks for the tip Alej
No he means you mineral walk your probes through the enemy units by clicking a mineral patch somewhere in the map behind the enemy units when you have all your probes selected, thus your probes are able to attack from behind while your other units can attack from in front and you can get the best possible surround and mess up any kiting (i think this is what he means anyway). However, this is making the assumption that all those probes don't evaporate instantly to 15 marines a thor and a tank which I think he is underestimating the amount of dps that is at this point in the game.
On September 14 2011 11:06 Alejandrisha wrote: a line works just fine.. As long as you can get a decent surround with your probes at the same time you engage with units and with GS
So move then A Move for the surround a la Zergling surround kind of thing I guess? If so cool, sounds good. Thanks for the tip Alej
No he means you mineral walk your probes through the enemy units by clicking a mineral patch somewhere in the map behind the enemy units when you have all your probes selected, thus your probes are able to attack from behind while your other units can attack from in front and you can get the best possible surround and mess up any kiting (i think this is what he means anyway). However, this is making the assumption that all those probes don't evaporate instantly to 15 marines a thor and a tank which I think he is underestimating the amount of dps that is at this point in the game.
the enemy doesn't prioritize the probes over attacking units until you actually click attack with your congo line. i'd rather have all that dps on probes rather than other units though.
Put down your twilight council with the robo and get blink? Pick off marines or reinforcements to buy time for your economy to kick in from the fast expand. Follow it up with speed zealot and +1 armor upgrades?
The replay seems bugged for me. The protoss player goes like gas gate forge then stops doing anything. I didnt know that SC2 replays could get bugged like this. Anyone know what could have caused that?
On September 14 2011 15:11 treekiller wrote: The replay seems bugged for me. The protoss player goes like gas gate forge then stops doing anything. I didnt know that SC2 replays could get bugged like this. Anyone know what could have caused that?
In that replay the OP is playing as terran and just showing the build. The protoss is an easy computer ^^
The key to holding any early thor rush is just having a ton of shit. I find some variation of 1 gate/core fe into 4gates-->robo works well. also low sentry count is key; i would say no more than 1 for gaurdian shield, if that, as u need all the dps u can get vs those mech units. I gen get 4-5 stalkers then pure zlot, spending gas on tech (robo, twighlight)
On September 14 2011 07:51 Salient wrote: I think the answer is so simple that we miss it. A standard 4-gate will destroy his build. He has 9 unupgraded marines at 5:55. I believe a standard 4 gate is an excellent counter to any 1-1-1 build because the tech will slow him down. I think we Protoss players are losing because of the metagame. We don't think to go 4 gate because it was nerfed months ago. Terrans react to our newer expand builds by teching up. They feel safe in the knowledge that Protoss players almost never 4 gate against terran anymore. I do not pretend to be a masters player, but that is my opinion anyway.
I disagree. Although I wouldn't rule out early pressure in general, Terran's ability to scout and make bunkers is pretty strong. The 4 warpgate rush is eminently scoutable, and as a general rule you make a bunker if you sense something is amiss. If your 4 warpgate rush fails you're really really far behind, too, since the terran player has been teching.
Lastly, you have to make the decision to 4 warpgate rush very early, before you know what he's doing. What if he's doing something different that gets a reactor, and he's going to make bunkers? clearly this will not be easy.
On September 14 2011 08:01 whistle wrote:
On September 14 2011 03:54 Alejandrisha wrote: The t build is terrible.. It's like any other thor rush except with a tank. I guarantee that if you pulled every single probe that you had when the push came to surround the army you would have won without losing almost anything. These builds have been around for a long time and there has been a lot of discussion on how to beat them. There is a reason they all went away.. they are just bad builds; 1 Immortal + gw units /w GS + a probe pull instantly wins. It doesn't matter if there's a "transition." If he loses that army and scvs, the game is over.
Just to clarify, do you recommend pulling every probe against early Thor/Marine attacks? I know you said every probe in this post but I'm not sure whether that was for the sake of argument or whether that's the best response to the situation. (I lose to Thor/Marine all-ins more than I care to admit)
I think he's talking about the fact that when terran pulls scvs, he's already taken a lot of economic damage, so if you pull probes and that causes you to hold, you'll probably be ahead.
I want to point out that if terran does a thor/marine rush, yeah, you should pull probes. In general, the larger your force, the less damage you take total during a fight. 5 zealots beat 10 zerglings, but 20 zealots absolutely demolish 10 zerglings, you take no damage at all. That thor rush is pretty damn all-inish, if you smash it with few losses, it's pretty much GG, so it's okay to suffer some probe losses to smash it, so yeah, pull probes against any thor rush build.
Let me clarify. If he's doing a thor rush, it means he doesn't have siege mode. He is also pulling lots and lots of scvs. You want to throw everything you have ever made in the game at this since he has no follow up and you (should) have a nexus unless you're doing a 1-base build. He doesn't have splash and he has to kill every single one of your units for the rush to actually succeed. So mineral walk your entire probe force (should be up to mid 30s when the push comes) and attack move them as you engage with the rest of your army. There's no way in hell he can kill all of your units and all of your probes. I usually have 20+ probes and a good portion of my army left over so the game is over at that point. If you don't pull probes you could lose, but if you pull probes you should win overwhelmingly.
I don't disagree with you that you should pull probes, but it's not true at all that the terran has no follow-up - he can easily "all-in" several times, and if he kills the majority of your army each time as well as some probes, you get weaker and weaker each time but each terran "wave" is still just as strong as the previous, so you could eventually lose. For example, MC vs puma on xel naga from IEM cologne - puma doesn't do this thor build, but the same idea holds that MC stopped the first attack but lost to the subsequent attack.
@ OP, sometimes if there are too many SCVs and I don't see the attack coming that fast (7:00 is pretty early), I'll sac my expo to buy time to chrono out an immortal, and defend at the ramp (which is much easier place to hold thor attacks.
The same way you stop 1/1/1 can't you stop this with? Just cut probes at around 30 and go 1 gate + FE into robotics with 4-5 gateways. Then chrono immortals out with a 2-3 sentries and rest zealot force, only take 1 gas also. Seems to me this would work, else I imagine you can sacrifice some probes as well if you don't get good timing since you are still on 2 bases to his 1 base. And immortals ofc focus fires the thor/tank.
Regarding Probe-Pulls: Played a T today who did a 2 Thor Allin with a couple of Banshees and a bucketload of SCV's Though his attack hit really late (aka lot of time to prepare) I lost my whole army and my Natural but was able to retreat my Probes to my Main. While he was killing what was left lowground I warped in 2 Rounds of Units (6 Zealots, 6 Stalker) and as he moved up I engaged with these and 2/3 of my Probes against his slightly weakened army. This time it was not even close. Totally crushed it and won the game afterwards because his lack of a followup. Really appreciate the Probe-Tip, always valued them as to precious to participate in these huge scale battles, but without enemy splash they are indeed overwhelmingly good.
On September 15 2011 02:16 Xanatoss wrote: Regarding Probe-Pulls: Played a T today who did a 2 Thor Allin with a couple of Banshees and a bucketload of SCV's Though his attack hit really late (aka lot of time to prepare) I lost my whole army and my Natural but was able to retreat my Probes to my Main. While he was killing what was left lowground I warped in 2 Rounds of Units (6 Zealots, 6 Stalker) and as he moved up I engaged with these and 2/3 of my Probes against his slightly weakened army. This time it was not even close. Totally crushed it and won the game afterwards because his lack of a followup. Really appreciate the Probe-Tip, always valued them as to precious to participate in these huge scale battles, but without enemy splash they are indeed overwhelmingly good.
Pulling probes is risky, but as long as you have a plan in mind it can be an effective Xanatoss gambit. I think that terran players may be more used to pulling workers to defend or attack because to an extent it's already done for repairing. That + 5 bonus hp makes them slightly more effective in combat. Still, probes are excellent, and if your opponent is all in you can afford to pull probes.
I think you should pull some probes, not all though. If you lose all your probes, even if you still have some units left you can be sure the terran still has at least 10scvs +mules (4). At base and you will be way behind and unable to counter attack fast enough.
You're not going to lose all of your probes if they don't have siege... not even close. You usually retain a pretty decent amount of them as the terran usually does not just a-move all of his units.
When I play terran I lose to Thor rushes even if I´m going BFH (which kill the SCVs repairing the Thor) and tanks, banshees, vikings. Probably the best way as protoss to deal with it is to go 1 gate robo expand + 3 gates. Build a obs right away, scout to see armory, and pump immortals and zealots like no tomorrow. Use the Immortals to focus fire the Thor (you should have 3 or 4 by then), which should kill the Thor quickly enough. for your zealots to kill their marines.
Ive only tried this once against a platinum buddy... and it handled him pretty good he went hatch first... then to roachs.
It didnt rape him, but it was a pretty decisive win, my MMR right now is kinda sketchy, and IM chicken shit to try it on ladder against zerg.... also IM curious to know how well this would do as an opener against terran? anyone have some thoughts? back in the day,, the old school thor rush was pretty effective all the way up until diamond until the SCV repair patch months ago.
but now with the extra tank... I think this may have some more potancy now, as before people were just making that one scouting hellion during the factory downtime while the armoury finsihes?
I think i may test it out today on the ladder ( low masters, but still play a fair share of diamonds. my mmr has been shit lately.
I have a 100% winrate with this on ladder against Protoss so far. Here is a small replay pack I composed (I have more replays, but they are kind of the same, so I've picked a diverse amount of strategies).
All the replays are from ladder:
1x vs. 3gate stargate into DTs on shakuras, opponent is GM league 1x vs. some robo opening on xel naga caverns, opponent is GM league 1x vs. some other robo opening on nerazim crypt, opponent high master 1x vs 4gate, opponent is high master
I have also had a 100% winrate since I jacked this strategy (when I setup a contain at the natural and don't push recklessly up the ramp). Sometimes if I get too reckless, I push up the ramp stupidly and lose, but when I play it cool I have won every game. I'm playing at about 800masters (now 900). 1base dts obviously is the hardcounter, but even then I feel like if you ran your scvs, had a scan saved up to save your units and just put a raven out ASAP you might be able to hold. I have had the most trouble with 1gate robo openings where they just power immortals, but even that wasn't able to break my contain.
On September 16 2011 10:15 the p00n wrote: I have a 100% winrate with this on ladder against Protoss so far. Here is a small replay pack I composed (I have more replays, but they are kind of the same, so I've picked a diverse amount of strategies).
All the replays are from ladder:
1x vs. 3gate stargate into DTs on shakuras, opponent is GM league 1x vs. some robo opening on xel naga caverns, opponent is GM league 1x vs. some other robo opening on nerazim crypt, opponent high master 1x vs 4gate, opponent is high master
[url blocked]
Thanks for the replays. You should put a link to the replays in the OP too.
After watching them, I'm convinced this build is for real. It packs plenty of Marines, a Tank and a Thor in and hits much earlier than a normal 1-1-1 (and pretty much as fast as a Thor push can hit). In the Game on Nerazim Crypt your opponent was able to get Two Immortals out, but supply capped himself when you reached his base. Still the Marine count was sky high, and I don't think even if he hadn't supply capped himself it would have mattered.
This is a really nice timing. I am curious to see what Alej thinks of the replays.
If anyone wants to try this build on me right now, I'm interested in seeing if it requires a different reaction than the standard one against 1-1-1. Send me a message @ coLrsvp.138
I saw a terran wall off and I thought he was doing the 1-1-1. My counter to it is a fast void ray, so I got a quick void ray. He came out with a LOT of scv's, thors, and marines and wiped me fast cuz he caught me off gaurd.
On September 16 2011 13:27 Anihc wrote: If anyone wants to try this build on me right now, I'm interested in seeing if it requires a different reaction than the standard one against 1-1-1. Send me a message @ coLrsvp.138
On September 16 2011 13:27 Anihc wrote: If anyone wants to try this build on me right now, I'm interested in seeing if it requires a different reaction than the standard one against 1-1-1. Send me a message @ coLrsvp.138
Would like to know results too.
I have had "some" success doing 1g robo expand gate. I take 1 probe off each gas and focus all my CB on immortal production after realizing that immortals do about the same dps to marines as 2 stalkers (cost the same too!) but is a lot more tanky.
EPT
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