EPTAlso, usually you need your 2nd gas to 1/1/1 effectively unless you're not getting addons or not making tanks or something.
[H] How to beat this T build, PvT GM league - Page 3
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Also, usually you need your 2nd gas to 1/1/1 effectively unless you're not getting addons or not making tanks or something. | ||
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LionsFist
Australia164 Posts
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
And with a proxied pylon in Tasteless’s secret hallway (that they probably won’t waste a lot of time going up the secret hallway to kill) as soon as you believe you have it held, warp in zealots to put on the killing blow. Edit: I am currently going 3 gate stargate contain every time I see gas. You have to be really good about scouting as you move out to set up the contain, it can defend a 3 rax stim timing, but it can not contain that build usually. Genuis has been doing this build a lot lately, and I really like it vs the current terran styles. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 14 2011 04:16 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: I think a 3 gate stargate sentry contain will still beat this. Yes, the Thor will break the contain as soon as it comes down the ramp, but as the marine and tank will be behind, you can likely do a small bit of damage and maybe even FF the ramp behind the thor, just to delay the rush further. Guardian shield and zealots, CB out a 2nd VR should all do quite well. If he has to be attacking your VR with his thor or better yet, marines, your zealots are going to be ripping marines/scvs up. Plus 2 VR won’t take that much damage from a thor; and they should be able to kill the tank pretty quick. With all that plus pulling a few probes I think you could hold the push. And with a proxied pylon in Tasteless’s secret hallway (that they probably won’t waste a lot of time going up the secret hallway to kill) as soon as you believe you have it held, warp in zealots to put on the killing blow. Sounds like a good plan. What should you scout for to make the decision to go for a 3 gate stargate sentry contain, and when do you lay down your stargate? | ||
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beg
991 Posts
just saying... | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 14 2011 04:16 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: Edit: I am currently going 3 gate stargate contain every time I see gas. You have to be really good about scouting as you move out to set up the contain, it can defend a 3 rax stim timing, but it can not contain that build usually. Genuis has been doing this build a lot lately, and I really like it vs the current terran styles. So against a 1 rax reactor FE, a 1/1/1 banshee cloak rush or allin, and the thor rush, all of which are 12 rax 13 refinery 15 orbital -> scouting probe destroyed (then the build branches), you'll be going 3 gate stargate FF contain? Sounds like it could be pretty good re: preventing your opponent from moving out. It seems risky though since they may have viking tech and you don't know. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
it is true that you cannot 1base against a terran, it is suicide. however many protosses are using these builds that cut economy in order to get out an expansion faster. in my opinion thats a huge reason why they are losing to this 1base terran attacks I guess i dont have the numbers to prove it, but just thinking about it makes me think its a very bad idea to be cutting economy in order to expand faster. Its counter intuitive. I guess i would have to run the final numbers to know the truth but heres the general idea of what im trying to say. First i will clarify. what is "cutting economy" for protoss? simply put, cutting economy for protoss is where your nexus isnt building probes (thus you are losing possible economy), AND anytime you use chronoboost on something other than probes counts as cuttong economy and also its cutting economy whenever your nexus has over 25 energy and isnt using it on chronoboosting out more probes. Chronoboost is the toss macro mechanic and i think so many tosses are handicapping themselves by using these outdated builds that save chronoboost or use it on the gateway when it should be possible to design a build that NEVER cuts economy and thus ends up being stronger overall Using a chronoboost on a gateway makes it produce at 150% for 20 seconds. Using chronoboost on probes gives you more economy, which can let you build an extra gateway faster, which will give you two gateways FOREVER instead of 1.5 gateways for only 20 seconds so far what im trying to design builds around is this concept The rule of safe play for protoss: A protoss should never cut economy before he has 22 probes (19 on minerals, 3 on gas) or 25 (if two gasses are taken). If a protoss does cut economy before that point, he is purposely harming himself, many times for no reason at all. Even if the protoss is cutting economy to get up a faster expansion its probably a bad idea because the economy he cuts turns out to be more important than the slightly faster expansion. If a protoss is expanding he shouldnt do so at the expense of this rule. There are builds out there like 16nexus that cut no economy while expanding fast and thus follow the above rule. That would put you super ahead if you could actually pull it off. But 16nexus is a bad build in PvT we all know that. But in terms of build properties, 16nexus is a expansion build that follows the above rule. Even terrans are following this rule most of the time. In most terran fast expand builds a terran usually never cuts scv's or orbital time before expanding. A terran always makes optimal scv amounts, starts his orbital, and then expands and even while expanding the terran is constantly making scv's and muling. A terran thats expanding is normally cutting no economy while expanding. Also, almost every terra that is 1basing will not cut scv's and get out the standard orbital and constantly mule and make scv's as well. many protosses are using builds that cut economy to get out a faster nexus. i think the superior build would be one that cuts no economy at all and throws up the expansion "when it can" while following this rule. pretty much, while watching your replay i saw many moments where you were "cutting economy". i think if you test out build ideas that cut no economy, and you throw up a expansion when resources permit, you will probably end up being alot stronger against these 1base-terrans. I agree that you should expand if you plan on winning against a 1base-terran, however i think in the future tosses will realize its better to max out your economic horsepower on your 1base as much as you can and only expand "when you can" instead of trying to sacrifice some of your economic horsepower to get out your expansion faster. your "economic horsepower" is your nexus and the chronoboost. all of it should be used on probes, while playing normally, and you should expand once you have 400 minerals OR if you end up in a slugfest with your enemy in the early game and you find yourself with 25 probes and no expansion, thats when you are now allowed to STOP making probes (since your already saturated) and save up and expand when you can. remember if you get into a slugfest with your enemy early game, chances are he also has a delayed expansion, so dont worry about it. Maxing out your economic horsepower early game will always be the safest way to play because it leads to a bigger army later on with the resources to expand as well | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
These numbers aren't just by coincidence | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On September 14 2011 05:10 Alejandrisha wrote: Except you get heavy diminishing returns after 16 probes on mins so it actually does make sense to cut 1 base economy to get your 2nd mineral line up and running. that's why a lot of expansion builds cut at ~30 food to put down the nexus (2 gas 1 gate fe builds): 1 stalker, 2 sentry, 6 probe on gas, 17 probe on min, or huk 20 food expand, 1 probe scout 3 probe on gas 16 probe on minerals These numbers aren't just by coincidence Your right this is only a theory i have and im going to collect the numbers soon to see if my theory is true or not What i plan to do is make a replay to test 16 vs 19 probes on minerals. The replays income-tracker i feel is not accurate enough so i will actually spend a minute and count how many minerals are actually gathered in that minute to see the real income difference. id say if going from 16 to 19 harvesters produced a 80 mineral difference then it would be beneficial. getting +80 income by going from 16 to 19 is a very good economic benefit for the 150 minerals spent in my opinion. Otherwise you would have to wait and stop at 16, wait for 400 minerals, then make your expansion, then wait for it to build. In all that time you could have possibly had +80 income for a few minutes, which would last to the end of the game | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
Every second you delay your nexus is another second that all your mineral probes after the 16th mineral-probe are mining substantially slower. | ||
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beg
991 Posts
On September 14 2011 05:17 Blazinghand wrote: Big A is right. at 16 probes on minerals you're raking in a comfortable ~675 minerals per minute, whereas at 24 on minerals (maximum) you only up to ~810 minerals per minute. Instead of having 8 more mineral-probes, it's better to grab another nexus, which will pay for itself much more quickly. So in a sense, you're "cutting nexus" when you make this additional probes after optimal saturation, since they're mining below full efficiency, and cutting/delaying your expo is more economically harmful than cutting a few probes, especially since you can bank a little chrono boost if you need to. Every second you delay your nexus is another second that all your mineral probes after the 16th mineral-probe are mining substantially slower. it sounds like you are judging this by intuition? someone should test this. the dude who suggested it. gogogo. should be easy to test, right? just compare which build mines more minerals. if he turns out to be right, i will make a rant blog about how people stubbornly turn any new idea down, using only their intuition to judge. i bet people were the same when they were discussing vultures in early BW  . | ||
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Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On September 14 2011 04:03 tuestresfat wrote: Except it's impossible to hold your natural against 1/1/1 on Xel'Naga. If one base was as blatantly impossible as you make it sound, you'd think a player like kiwikaki wouldn't even think of trying a 1base build at mlg. Yes, it may or may not be the appropriate answer, but it's not as fucking horrible as you're trying to sell. This is not true. If you open 1 gate robo expo you can easily hold your natural against 1/1/1. The key to beating 1/1/1 is to have several immortals out. Getting robo after nexus means you don't have enough time to get them out, that's why 1/2 gate FE dies to 1/1/1. Of course the problem is the 1 gate robo opening loses to a 2 rax or 3 rax opening, but that is of course the point. That's why 1/1/1 is so strong and Terran is dominating Protoss, because you have a 1/3 chance of simply losing every game when you pick the wrong opening build against what they're doing. You can open 2 gate robo expo or 3 gate robo expo, and be safe against 2/3 rax as well as 1/1/1, but then you get killed by 1 rax FE. We'll see if the 6 range immortal change allows you to defeat 2 rax pressure with a 1 gate robo expo opening. If it does, then Protoss will have a relatively safe opening again. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 14 2011 06:09 beg wrote: it sounds like you are judging this by intuition? someone should test this. the dude who suggested it. gogogo. should be easy to test, right? just compare which build mines more minerals. if he turns out to be right, i will make a rant blog about how people stubbornly turn any new idea down, using only their intuition to judge. i bet people were the same when they were discussing vultures in early BW .I agree; I think this idea is worth testing. I am not a stubborn man, however, and was just showing Big A's rationalization for an early nexus, not claiming that it was impossible that I was wrong, but noting that there are opportunity costs to delaying the nexus. Please do not attribute such traits to me incorrectly. | ||
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Xanatoss
Germany539 Posts
On September 14 2011 05:02 roymarthyup wrote: + Show Spoiler + i have a theory on protoss builds and economic power. im a master toss currently and i havnt perfected this idea yet, but i am trying more and more to design builds that try to max out on economy as much as it can it is true that you cannot 1base against a terran, it is suicide. however many protosses are using these builds that cut economy in order to get out an expansion faster. in my opinion thats a huge reason why they are losing to this 1base terran attacks I guess i dont have the numbers to prove it, but just thinking about it makes me think its a very bad idea to be cutting economy in order to expand faster. Its counter intuitive. I guess i would have to run the final numbers to know the truth but heres the general idea of what im trying to say. First i will clarify. what is "cutting economy" for protoss? simply put, cutting economy for protoss is where your nexus isnt building probes (thus you are losing possible economy), AND anytime you use chronoboost on something other than probes counts as cuttong economy and also its cutting economy whenever your nexus has over 25 energy and isnt using it on chronoboosting out more probes. Chronoboost is the toss macro mechanic and i think so many tosses are handicapping themselves by using these outdated builds that save chronoboost or use it on the gateway when it should be possible to design a build that NEVER cuts economy and thus ends up being stronger overall Using a chronoboost on a gateway makes it produce at 150% for 20 seconds. Using chronoboost on probes gives you more economy, which can let you build an extra gateway faster, which will give you two gateways FOREVER instead of 1.5 gateways for only 20 seconds so far what im trying to design builds around is this concept The rule of safe play for protoss: A protoss should never cut economy before he has 22 probes (19 on minerals, 3 on gas) or 25 (if two gasses are taken). If a protoss does cut economy before that point, he is purposely harming himself, many times for no reason at all. Even if the protoss is cutting economy to get up a faster expansion its probably a bad idea because the economy he cuts turns out to be more important than the slightly faster expansion. If a protoss is expanding he shouldnt do so at the expense of this rule. There are builds out there like 16nexus that cut no economy while expanding fast and thus follow the above rule. That would put you super ahead if you could actually pull it off. But 16nexus is a bad build in PvT we all know that. But in terms of build properties, 16nexus is a expansion build that follows the above rule. Even terrans are following this rule most of the time. In most terran fast expand builds a terran usually never cuts scv's or orbital time before expanding. A terran always makes optimal scv amounts, starts his orbital, and then expands and even while expanding the terran is constantly making scv's and muling. A terran thats expanding is normally cutting no economy while expanding. Also, almost every terra that is 1basing will not cut scv's and get out the standard orbital and constantly mule and make scv's as well. many protosses are using builds that cut economy to get out a faster nexus. i think the superior build would be one that cuts no economy at all and throws up the expansion "when it can" while following this rule. pretty much, while watching your replay i saw many moments where you were "cutting economy". i think if you test out build ideas that cut no economy, and you throw up a expansion when resources permit, you will probably end up being alot stronger against these 1base-terrans. I agree that you should expand if you plan on winning against a 1base-terran, however i think in the future tosses will realize its better to max out your economic horsepower on your 1base as much as you can and only expand "when you can" instead of trying to sacrifice some of your economic horsepower to get out your expansion faster. your "economic horsepower" is your nexus and the chronoboost. all of it should be used on probes, while playing normally, and you should expand once you have 400 minerals OR if you end up in a slugfest with your enemy in the early game and you find yourself with 25 probes and no expansion, thats when you are now allowed to STOP making probes (since your already saturated) and save up and expand when you can. remember if you get into a slugfest with your enemy early game, chances are he also has a delayed expansion, so dont worry about it. Maxing out your economic horsepower early game will always be the safest way to play because it leads to a bigger army later on with the resources to expand as well You could also see it the other way around. Builds like the 1 Gate FE dont cut Probes to build the Nexus. Up to the point where the Nexus gets planted there are almost no cuts whatsoever (except not spending more than 3 CB maybe). Instead they cut econ temporary to get up the Nexus simultaneously with the necessary Army-Value to not die to certain Aggression timings. You said yourself that 16 Nexus PvT is a bad idea most times. 1 Gate FE avoids the weeknesses of 16 Nexus and gets the fastest possible Nexus after that and just then cuts econ to get said Units. Next logical step are Maps/Spawns were 2 Rax would kill you with 1 Gate FE and on these you have to do a 2 Gate FE and cut econ afterwards to not die to the chronologic next timing, like fast 1/1/1 and so on. Imho the next step in the Evolution of FE-Builds is figuring out the arrangement of 2 Gates (which are needed to reliable hold of 2 Rax), Probeproduction & Nexus-Timing (accumulated Eco over time) and Robo-Timing (which combines safety against Cloak, 3 Rax and later Timings, and reliable Scouting) depending on each Map (aka Rush-Distance). Ideally a FE build has to hold against the map/spawn-specific 2 Rax blindly (because you can just identify indicators if terrans does it right), execute the most economic efficient probe/nexus-timing afterwards and has to offer valid intel right when the Expansion finishes so one knows if he has to prepare for the next timing or is able to power. I am doing a lot of calculation about the Probe/Nexus-Timing lately, hopefully I get to solid conclusions soon and be able to write everything down. | ||
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Artunit
Philippines399 Posts
On September 13 2011 23:28 Sea_Food wrote: More zealots and immortals, less stalkers (dont make more than 1) less sentries (dont make more than 2.) Althou that is the key of holding every terran rush atm. Then if so how can you deal with banshees? | ||
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Salient
United States876 Posts
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whistle
United States141 Posts
On September 14 2011 03:54 Alejandrisha wrote: The t build is terrible.. It's like any other thor rush except with a tank. I guarantee that if you pulled every single probe that you had when the push came to surround the army you would have won without losing almost anything. These builds have been around for a long time and there has been a lot of discussion on how to beat them. There is a reason they all went away.. they are just bad builds; 1 Immortal + gw units /w GS + a probe pull instantly wins. It doesn't matter if there's a "transition." If he loses that army and scvs, the game is over. Just to clarify, do you recommend pulling every probe against early Thor/Marine attacks? I know you said every probe in this post but I'm not sure whether that was for the sake of argument or whether that's the best response to the situation. (I lose to Thor/Marine all-ins more than I care to admit) | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On September 14 2011 07:35 Artunit wrote: Then if so how can you deal with banshees? Whitewing and Mewo both suggested reactive stalker warpins: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265049¤tpage=2#24 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265049¤tpage=2#25 On September 14 2011 07:51 Salient wrote: I think the answer is so simple that we miss it. A standard 4-gate will destroy his build. He has 9 unupgraded marines at 5:55. I believe a standard 4 gate is an excellent counter to any 1-1-1 build because the tech will slow him down. I think we Protoss players are losing because of the metagame. We don't think to go 4 gate because it was nerfed months ago. Terrans react to our newer expand builds by teching up. They feel safe in the knowledge that Protoss players almost never 4 gate against terran anymore. I do not pretend to be a masters player, but that is my opinion anyway. I disagree. Although I wouldn't rule out early pressure in general, Terran's ability to scout and make bunkers is pretty strong. The 4 warpgate rush is eminently scoutable, and as a general rule you make a bunker if you sense something is amiss. If your 4 warpgate rush fails you're really really far behind, too, since the terran player has been teching. Lastly, you have to make the decision to 4 warpgate rush very early, before you know what he's doing. What if he's doing something different that gets a reactor, and he's going to make bunkers? clearly this will not be easy. On September 14 2011 08:01 whistle wrote: Just to clarify, do you recommend pulling every probe against early Thor/Marine attacks? I know you said every probe in this post but I'm not sure whether that was for the sake of argument or whether that's the best response to the situation. (I lose to Thor/Marine all-ins more than I care to admit) I think he's talking about the fact that when terran pulls scvs, he's already taken a lot of economic damage, so if you pull probes and that causes you to hold, you'll probably be ahead. | ||
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KiF1rE
United States964 Posts
ive beat this build, using builds listed in this guide http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250379 basically its the same thing, get an expo and pump zeal immortal sentry... stalkers are kind of bad, unless its possible to do alot of kiting, but when it comes time to fight they just get eaten alive. | ||
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AznPope
United States2 Posts
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