|
I posted this on the Battle.net Forums and wanted to share with you guys to see what you think.
OP : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1536476340
PS: The part about people who read "these forums" is talking about b.net forums obviously.
Greetings,
I have never been one to post on these forums, yet I do lurk here quite often. This post is a culmination of many things that I have been upset about and angry with since the release of Starcraft 2. Namely, nerfs, patches, and whining (NPW from here on out). First I want to preamble with a little bit about myself. I have been gaming since the SNES, and have been competitive at games like Super Smash Brothers, Mario Kart (yes there are tournaments), Counter Strike, WoW, and Starcraft. Clearly the console games don't get patched like PC games, so they don't really factor into this discussion.
I want to bring to the reader's attention the horrible side-effects of NPW. NPW drastically dumbs down games. When players and forum posters complain about "oh MULEs are OP" or "Hydras are UP" it only bottlenecks the player's thinking. If you are an eSports fan than you know who SlayerSBoxeR is. BoxeR isn't famous for winning all of his championships. He is famous for HOW he did it. BoxeR took the struggling Terran race of the early 2000s and rocketed the Terran to the best race, hands down. This didn't happen because he whined to Blizzard for some kind of buff, it isn't because he started playing right after some major patch. It is because he ACCEPTED THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS. That's right, he didn't complain about imbalance, he didn't post stupid ass thread on teamliquid or battle.net. Instead he MADE IT WORK. He FOUND A WAY TO WIN. These are the major mental steps that I want to highlight.
Players that bottlenecks themselves with NPW do nothing beneficial for themselves. In fact I would go as far to say that they put a timer on their ability to play. Players who fall victim to NPW don't want to play until the patch comes out, don't want to practice "some stupid UP race". Would SlayerSBoxeR do that? Hell no. Players and fans need to pull their heads out of their own asses, and trust the Blizzard knows what they are doing. PLUS, if any of these complainers were ACTUALLY GOOD, they would know that the true imbalance in this game right now is Blizzard's shitty ass maps (yes every single map they have made, sucks, hard, except maaaaybe Shakuras, but even then..).
What I am trying to display is how community effort to get games patched or aspects nerfed never satisfies anyone. Only the people who are positively affected by the change are happy, and in Starcraft that is less than 30%, unless you play Terran. Basically, by nerfing the game once, Blizzard is forced to nerf it again. Look at what has happened to WoW. When WoW came out it was a hardcore, awesome ass MMORPG, kicked EQ2 and DaoC in the ass. Clearly there were some balance issues in vanilla WoW (rogues could backstab with swords in the early days) so they HAD to patch those to make sure people still played. But after years of player's NPW-ing the game is completely different and boring. Raids don't present the mental challenge they used to, the game is completely based on numbers not skill. Skill does show up in PvP, and I think that is why Blizzard is pushing PvP so much hard these days. However, I would go so far as to say that without as much NPW from the community, WoW would still be the fucking awesome, 40man raiding, world PvP-ing behemoth that is was. (Disclaimer: I have played WoW on and off from release. I have had each class at max level, either 60/70/80. I refuse to play cataclysm due to RL, and lack of interest.)
But now we look at RTS games. The difference with an RTS game is that NPW does NOTHING TO MAKE THEM BETTER. Starcraft 2 is a 90% balanced game imo, +/- 5%, and this means that the patches that need to happen are small, and not paradigm shifting. So many posters ask for "MULE nerfs" or "Fast Hydras" or whatever the fuck, and this is stuuuuupid. Completely changing the role of a unit would knock the carefully placed balances off their rockers. This game has been in the making for TEN+ FUCKING YEARS. I think Blizzard knows what role they want units to fill.
The driving theme of this post is to encourage members of the community to not post about what they want Blizzard to change, or how Blizzard has fucked up. I want to see a community like Brood War's, where players devise new strategies with the pieces they are given. I don't remember who said it, Nony I think, on the State of the Game Podcast, Starcraft 2 is a intelligence-limited game. Players have to find out what their opponents are doing. THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT. Blizzard shouldn't have to hold your hand, and say, "Look your opponent is making hydras, this means that you should build collosus." Frankly, Blizzard is too nice to most of the posters here. I feel like these are complain-boards, where under-skilled players go to NPW about the game. If you hit a plateau in your play, it isn't Blizzard's job to help you through it, it is yours. When you buy a chess set, the toy store doesn't come to your house every day to play with you, you have to practice on your own.
Maybe people who bought SC2 didn't realize that they would actually have to be accountable for their skill. I think a lot of new-age WoW players who are used to well-fare epics and stupid badge gear have bought SC2 thinking that they can be the best without ever thinking about what the game is. SC2 isn't your normal online game, its competitive, its fast, its completely on you. Losing in SC2 is much worse than dying in WoW or dying in CS, because death there doesn't lose you the entire game. Maybe in certain situations, but most of the time it doesn't. You have a team to rely on, resurrections to work with. SC2 doesn't have that, if you fuck up, you fucked up, that's it.
Perhaps I am ranting, perhaps I'm not. But I think that people are completely un-aware of what they are doing the community. This game will never last if people only focus on what is bad. There are so many fucking awesome things about SC2 compared to BW. Multiple Building Select O_O I can't wait to see Jaedong or Flash play SC2 so they don't have to use 90% of their godly APM for macro. Same with unit selections. People, grow up and stop whining. Blizzard has made a game that should, and will ( I feel ), be the best PC game of all time.
By whining and complaining for Blizzard to nerf or patch the game you take away from the value of the game. You make it seem that Blizzard hasn't done anything right, and that the game is bad. THIS GAME IS NOT BAD PERIOD. Blizzard - IMO you should ban everyone who complains for a nerf or patch unless you ask them.
NPW makes games not fun, it makes it not fun to be a part of the community that drives the game. And sadly, it is this community that eSports relies upon. If you want to see eSports go under the bus, then please keep posting stupid NPW threads, but don't say I didn't warn you when you get flamed into the ground. If you really want to be the best, and enjoy playing SC2, use your brain, think, be creative, and think outside the box. Maybe you will be the one to invent the new Reaver Drop or the new Vulture micro. Who knows, the game is there waiting for us to unlock it's mysteries, but instead we want them explicitly thrown in our face. Don't do this, a fine game is like a fine wine, there are so many layers and intricacies that drinking it once simply won't do. You have to peel away the layers of flavor and musk in order to find the true beauty of the wine. Wine, like Starcraft, is a fickle lover, she does not reveal her secrets to anyone, you must deem yourself worthy of understanding her secrets, but once you do, no one can stop you.
To summarize, STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING, STOP FUCKING WHINING, AND PLAY THE FUCKING GAME.
EDIT 1: I wanted to make this explicit:
This isn't a complaint against Blizzard, or TeamLiquid, its a complaint against the community. Stop trolling, stop being stupid and most of all, STOP acting like you know everything. All of a sudden you will actually enjoy the game that you spent $60 on and tons of your time playing.
As I have said, I don't make this game, I don't pretend to, and I don't pretend to be the one-stop knowledge shop. Instead I come as a community member begging everyone else to get their act together before we all go down on a burning ship.
|
Monopoly never had patches. QQ
|
are you complaining ? ..
i think if we are it's because we care.
User was warned for this post
|
goodness gracious you're so angry
were you a pre-patch terran player?
User was warned for this post
|
Idiots who don't know what they're talking about who QQ and whine is what ruins games. People who speak the truth don't ruin games at all. If they bring real problems to the developers attention, that's good, because it helps them fix problems.
If Blizzard hadn't patched StarCraft, it would still be an imbalanced piece of shit to this day.
Tl;dr
QQing is bad when you don't know what you're talking about. It's good when you're bringing up a real problem.
|
I support this post, people always want to blame someone/something else for when they lose, instead the answer is always themselves. If your winning, you aren't learning.
|
On December 17 2010 01:23 navara wrote:
are you complaining ? ..
i think if we are it's because we care.
I think theres a limit to the complaining that people should be doing, and from my perspective I think we have passed that limit by leaps and bounds.
Liquid`Tyler spoke about this on the last State of the Game and I think iNcontroL also did too and what they pretty much said is what the OP here is saying. Back in Brood War people did not expect Blizzard to do anything so they essentially took it upon themselves to figure out how to overcome the supposed deficiencies or the "imbalances"
|
On December 17 2010 01:23 navara wrote:
are you complaining ? ..
i think if we are it's because we care.
Your missing the point; he is saying if we keep winning for patches sc2 will get nerfed to oblivion and eventually will be as easy to play as WoW: Cata is now (all based on numbers) Same thing with sc2 it will be nerfed to the point of if you scout 4 barracks you build 4 gateways. Very simple 
|
But now we look at RTS games. The difference with an RTS game is that NPW does NOTHING TO MAKE THEM BETTER. Starcraft 2 is a 90% balanced game imo, +/- 5%,
Im sure we can all appreciate a game that is fair, if i said to you lets play a game of basket ball and at the end ill add on 15% points to my score because i picked the zerg jersey and you picked the toss jersey, im sure someone has the right to say something, especially when the winner of the game gets 80k and the loser gets 30k. My suggestion is to think about why people are complaining instead of telling them to stop in general. Blizzard said a lot of valuable information comes from the forms.
Isnt it ironic that you are complaining about complainers? lol
By the way i think snes was the best console ever created. for its time the games were unmatched.
Thanks for the post, Adun
|
To summarize, STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING, STOP FUCKING WHINING, AND PLAY THE FUCKING GAME.
I think you are taking internet people too serious and need to take a leaf out of your own book. If you don't like these people, don't bother with them and don't complain. As you said, just play the game ^^
|
Clearly there were some balance issues in vanilla WoW (rogues could backstab with swords in the early days) so they HAD to patch those to make sure people still played.
So explain how you know the difference between things that "clearly" had to be patched and NPWing? Who should Blizzard consult to know what is NPWing and what is a legitimate issue?
However, I would go so far as to say that without as much NPW from the community, WoW would still be the fucking awesome, 40man raiding, world PvP-ing behemoth that is was.
Which is fine. Unless of course you can't get 40 people together for raids, or would like to be able to venture out into the world without being ganked.
In short, if people aren't you.
Completely changing the role of a unit would knock the carefully placed balances off their rockers. This game has been in the making for TEN+ FUCKING YEARS. I think Blizzard knows what role they want units to fill.
That's an odd contradiction. You trust that Blizzard knows what they want, but then you complain about Nerfs and Patches (the P in NPW). You know, the things that Blizzard makes. Whining doesn't get patches made; coders and designers at Blizzard get patches made.
Do you think that Blizzard will release a patch that has balance changes that they themselves don't agree with, but that they put in because of community outrage? Do you trust Blizzard or not?
|
Again most of this wasn't directed at TL, idk if anyone really reads the b.net forums, but they are soooo bad. Like whoa.
were you a pre-patch terran player?
Nope ^^ I've played protoss since Brood War.
If Blizzard hadn't patched StarCraft, it would still be an imbalanced piece of shit to this day.
This is truth, but the issue arises when people don't THINK that it is balanced because they really really really want to hydralisk rush someone or some non-sense.
QQing is bad when you don't know what you're talking about. It's good when you're bringing up a real problem.
EX-FUCKING-ACTLY. Its a shame because 99% of QQ'ers have NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.
And yes, I suppose I am QQing about QQers, but honestly I think that this IS a real problem.
|
On December 17 2010 01:30 Moonling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:23 navara wrote:
are you complaining ? ..
i think if we are it's because we care. Your missing the point; he is saying if we keep winning for patches sc2 will get nerfed to oblivion and eventually will be as easy to play as WoW: Cata is now (all based on numbers) Same thing with sc2 it will be nerfed to the point of if you scout 4 barracks you build 4 gateways. Very simple
Except if WoW is anything to go by, Devs like Ghostcrawler have said over and over and over that QQ on the forum has virtually no effect on dictating balance changes. SC2 is much the same...
|
I don't agree. People complain all the time about everything. Due to being insecure, having too big of an ego, you name it.
All you're doing here is complain about complaining, in the end it's you who's not enjoying this because you feel just as 'annoyed' as the people that are complaining in the first place.
It's very simple: on the B.net forums you just set everyone on "ignore" that you think makes stupid posts. You make sure you never click a post that talks about imbalance etc..
Why am I writing this? Because I thought you were complaining about the patches too, but it seems your title is slightly misleading: You wrote just another whine-thread. Not about the game, but about the community. It's all the same. The game = the community. If you let your fun be ruined by people's (stupid) thoughts you are ruining your own pleasure in the game. Find the people that enjoy it on the same level as you and just relax.. ignore stupidity , let them be pissed at the game, they will keep playing and you will feel bad.
Trust blizzard that they won't be stupid about the patches, so far they've done a great job. Every patch means complaints, and so far most people are rather happy with 1.1.3 right?
Cheers.
|
On December 17 2010 01:28 echO [W] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:23 navara wrote:
are you complaining ? ..
i think if we are it's because we care. I think theres a limit to the complaining that people should be doing, and from my perspective I think we have passed that limit by leaps and bounds. Liquid`Tyler spoke about this on the last State of the Game and I think iNcontroL also did too and what they pretty much said is what the OP here is saying. Back in Brood War people did not expect Blizzard to do anything so they essentially took it upon themselves to figure out how to overcome the supposed deficiencies or the "imbalances"
I hate this argument.
Go play vanilla starcraft and figure out how to stop muta harass, instant reaver drops, or certain tank drops on LT then come back and tell me about how you can play around the games imbalances.
Certain things were addressed in the game, but once things were in a solid, stable state, only THEN did Blizzard find that they could sit back and watch people evolve past strong strategies.
Patches are moving at a good rate right now. And yes they should slow down in the future, but some things need to be addressed first.
|
There are legitimate concerns and then there are QQ. I think you are generalizing too much and grouping them together.
Case and point:
Queen + canceled hatchery spine crawler rush = legitimate issue that was fixed
2 pylon block against zerg = legitimate issue that is set to be fixed (of course, this brings about discussion of drone patrol and what the protoss can do to stop zerg's greedy builds, but I think everyone would agree that it is pretty stupid to lock someone inside the base like that.)
Hydras being slower than SC1 counter part = QQ
|
Whining about other people whining will certainly help the situation.
|
On December 17 2010 01:32 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:30 Moonling wrote:On December 17 2010 01:23 navara wrote:
are you complaining ? ..
i think if we are it's because we care. Your missing the point; he is saying if we keep winning for patches sc2 will get nerfed to oblivion and eventually will be as easy to play as WoW: Cata is now (all based on numbers) Same thing with sc2 it will be nerfed to the point of if you scout 4 barracks you build 4 gateways. Very simple Except if WoW is anything to go by, Devs like Ghostcrawler have said over and over and over that QQ on the forum has virtually no effect on dictating balance changes. SC2 is much the same...
Do you believe everything people tell you? The forums have an effect on Blizzard, even subconsciously and maybe they themselves don't even realize it. If they read the forum (which they do) then it will have an effect.
|
That's an odd contradiction. You trust that Blizzard knows what they want, but then you complain about Nerfs and Patches (the P in NPW). You know, the things that Blizzard makes. Whining doesn't get patches made; coders and designers at Blizzard get patches made.
Blizzard makes video games. Not nerfs or patches. Nerfs and patches are updates to the games they have made based upon user experiences. When users don't give positive feedback, and simply generate bad vibes nothing good gets done.
Many people have attitudes that, 10 years ago, would have stifled the birth of eSports in the first place.
Maybe I am out of place saying these things, but it has been some of the biggest weight on my shoulders for a while now. I love eSports and don't want to see it fall victim to haters or dumbasses who's only goal is to ruin the fun for everyone else.
|
OP obviously played Protoss when beta started and switched to Terran.
Are you really gonna be naive enough to assume a game this complex is going to be perfectly balanced barely months after its release? Maybe you don't realize it, but patches aren't random changes that a developer makes after hours of calculations and theory crafting. The game is balanced almost entirely on the feedback of its players.
Now, I agree that people who don't know what they're talking about are useless when they complain but I find it completely ridiculous when top players who dedicate their life to the game like Idra, Ret, Nony, and Artosis + Show Spoiler +one of those may or may not be a joke
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
