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On December 17 2010 01:30 Moonling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:23 navara wrote:
are you complaining ? ..
i think if we are it's because we care. Your missing the point; he is saying if we keep winning for patches sc2 will get nerfed to oblivion and eventually will be as easy to play as WoW: Cata is now (all based on numbers) Same thing with sc2 it will be nerfed to the point of if you scout 4 barracks you build 4 gateways. Very simple 
WoW insn't simple because players complained, infact most of the people (like me) who actually played it from the start hated the slow and inexorable march towards simplicity, though we did like seeing our numbers go up and up and up and up and up and up.
WoW got simpler because it got popular. The more people that play the game, the more reccommend it to friends and slowly the playerbase moves away from hardcore gamers to casuals, at that point the developer need to keep their subs coming in and thus must make the game appeal to new and casual players.
SC2 is simpler than SC1 because they knew it was going to be huge and they needed to cater to the people who aren't hardcore RTS gamers as well as the "pro's" and the harcore. Its a tough thing to balance all these concerns and simple fact is that 99% of players aren't in the "pro" backet, of that 99% the vast majority don't fit into the "hardcore" catagory, meaning ultimately the people who pay the bills at blizzard are the casuals, thats why WoW has gotten easier and why SC2 will be patched until its 150% balanced
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Also I don't really see it as a problem. The Blizzard and other forms are likely to always have bitching, it's just the atmosphere of those forums. Meanwhile at places like TL players are expected to know they need to get better to win so we shouldn't expect much whining.
By and large that's also what's happening. Once they fixed Zerg and the other races found their new XvZ builds the amount of bitching has gone down dramatically. There's still a fair bit, the game is new and balance is still an open question, but it's dramatically less. Right now most of the whining seems to be isolated flare ups when something new comes along that seems dramatic.
When balance patches come out most people do bring up concerns/whine, but that's also to be expected. It's doubly so because often times people are whining for less dramatic changes than we're getting while often times accepting the more reasonable sounding ones.
Other than that the majority of whine I've seen lately has more to do with concern over how the game is going to play out. People want longer games and are worried about cheese being dominant. Seeing as this is mostly a spectator and non-competitive player concern (and to a lesser extent competitive player concern, but most good players just play the game as is), telling people to just play the game they've got doesn't make sense.
So whatever, I don't see the big issue. As the game settles, patches slow down, and people see more even win %s the whining has gone down dramatically. I think people are blowing the whining out of proportion because of the dark days for Zerg where there were legitimate* balance concerns and then the explosion afterwards where T & P were using outdated strategies and losing horribly to the new styles/powers of zerg. Yeah if people feel like something is imbalanced, they try to work through it and still can't THEN have a whole set of other players (including pro gamers) saying the same thing they're going to become very vocal. It's going to be even more so when the data (tournament results, ladder win %s, etc.) seems to back it up.
*In my eyes Blizzard is god over Starcraft 2. If they make a balance changes to help a race overall then I consider it fact that the race needed it. So I view the Zerg buffs and other changes to cement the fact that zerg as a race did have legitimate issues.
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Blizzard have created the most successful PC franchise in the last decade.
Their previous game started an e-sport craze in an entire country.
Until they mess up this track record with multi-crazy-patching-based-on-forum-posts, stop whining, as you suggest.
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No offense OP but you are basicly complaining that ppl complain on the internet.
btw, i love how you compare it with wow.
If blizzard actually listened to the forums in wow you got no idea what it would look like now.
The amount of crap suggestions supported by ppl there is hilarous.
I am pretty sure blizzard kinda knows what they are doing to know to wich whine and complaints they listen to and wich they ignore.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 17 2010 01:19 Chronald wrote:I posted this on the Battle.net Forums and wanted to share with you guys to see what you think. OP : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1536476340PS: The part about people who read "these forums" is talking about b.net forums obviously. Greetings, I have never been one to post on these forums, yet I do lurk here quite often. This post is a culmination of many things that I have been upset about and angry with since the release of Starcraft 2. Namely, nerfs, patches, and whining (NPW from here on out). First I want to preamble with a little bit about myself. I have been gaming since the SNES, and have been competitive at games like Super Smash Brothers, Mario Kart (yes there are tournaments), Counter Strike, WoW, and Starcraft. Clearly the console games don't get patched like PC games, so they don't really factor into this discussion. I want to bring to the reader's attention the horrible side-effects of NPW. NPW drastically dumbs down games. When players and forum posters complain about "oh MULEs are OP" or "Hydras are UP" it only bottlenecks the player's thinking. If you are an eSports fan than you know who SlayerSBoxeR is. BoxeR isn't famous for winning all of his championships. He is famous for HOW he did it. BoxeR took the struggling Terran race of the early 2000s and rocketed the Terran to the best race, hands down. This didn't happen because he whined to Blizzard for some kind of buff, it isn't because he started playing right after some major patch. It is because he ACCEPTED THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS. That's right, he didn't complain about imbalance, he didn't post stupid ass thread on teamliquid or battle.net. Instead he MADE IT WORK. He FOUND A WAY TO WIN. These are the major mental steps that I want to highlight. Players that bottlenecks themselves with NPW do nothing beneficial for themselves. In fact I would go as far to say that they put a timer on their ability to play. Players who fall victim to NPW don't want to play until the patch comes out, don't want to practice "some stupid UP race". Would SlayerSBoxeR do that? Hell no. Players and fans need to pull their heads out of their own asses, and trust the Blizzard knows what they are doing. PLUS, if any of these complainers were ACTUALLY GOOD, they would know that the true imbalance in this game right now is Blizzard's shitty ass maps (yes every single map they have made, sucks, hard, except maaaaybe Shakuras, but even then..). What I am trying to display is how community effort to get games patched or aspects nerfed never satisfies anyone. Only the people who are positively affected by the change are happy, and in Starcraft that is less than 30%, unless you play Terran. Basically, by nerfing the game once, Blizzard is forced to nerf it again. Look at what has happened to WoW. When WoW came out it was a hardcore, awesome ass MMORPG, kicked EQ2 and DaoC in the ass. Clearly there were some balance issues in vanilla WoW (rogues could backstab with swords in the early days) so they HAD to patch those to make sure people still played. But after years of player's NPW-ing the game is completely different and boring. Raids don't present the mental challenge they used to, the game is completely based on numbers not skill. Skill does show up in PvP, and I think that is why Blizzard is pushing PvP so much hard these days. However, I would go so far as to say that without as much NPW from the community, WoW would still be the fucking awesome, 40man raiding, world PvP-ing behemoth that is was. (Disclaimer: I have played WoW on and off from release. I have had each class at max level, either 60/70/80. I refuse to play cataclysm due to RL, and lack of interest.) But now we look at RTS games. The difference with an RTS game is that NPW does NOTHING TO MAKE THEM BETTER. Starcraft 2 is a 90% balanced game imo, +/- 5%, and this means that the patches that need to happen are small, and not paradigm shifting. So many posters ask for "MULE nerfs" or "Fast Hydras" or whatever the fuck, and this is stuuuuupid. Completely changing the role of a unit would knock the carefully placed balances off their rockers. This game has been in the making for TEN+ FUCKING YEARS. I think Blizzard knows what role they want units to fill. The driving theme of this post is to encourage members of the community to not post about what they want Blizzard to change, or how Blizzard has fucked up. I want to see a community like Brood War's, where players devise new strategies with the pieces they are given. I don't remember who said it, Nony I think, on the State of the Game Podcast, Starcraft 2 is a intelligence-limited game. Players have to find out what their opponents are doing. THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT. Blizzard shouldn't have to hold your hand, and say, "Look your opponent is making hydras, this means that you should build collosus." Frankly, Blizzard is too nice to most of the posters here. I feel like these are complain-boards, where under-skilled players go to NPW about the game. If you hit a plateau in your play, it isn't Blizzard's job to help you through it, it is yours. When you buy a chess set, the toy store doesn't come to your house every day to play with you, you have to practice on your own. Maybe people who bought SC2 didn't realize that they would actually have to be accountable for their skill. I think a lot of new-age WoW players who are used to well-fare epics and stupid badge gear have bought SC2 thinking that they can be the best without ever thinking about what the game is. SC2 isn't your normal online game, its competitive, its fast, its completely on you. Losing in SC2 is much worse than dying in WoW or dying in CS, because death there doesn't lose you the entire game. Maybe in certain situations, but most of the time it doesn't. You have a team to rely on, resurrections to work with. SC2 doesn't have that, if you fuck up, you fucked up, that's it. Perhaps I am ranting, perhaps I'm not. But I think that people are completely un-aware of what they are doing the community. This game will never last if people only focus on what is bad. There are so many fucking awesome things about SC2 compared to BW. Multiple Building Select O_O I can't wait to see Jaedong or Flash play SC2 so they don't have to use 90% of their godly APM for macro. Same with unit selections. People, grow up and stop whining. Blizzard has made a game that should, and will ( I feel ), be the best PC game of all time. By whining and complaining for Blizzard to nerf or patch the game you take away from the value of the game. You make it seem that Blizzard hasn't done anything right, and that the game is bad. THIS GAME IS NOT BAD PERIOD. Blizzard - IMO you should ban everyone who complains for a nerf or patch unless you ask them. NPW makes games not fun, it makes it not fun to be a part of the community that drives the game. And sadly, it is this community that eSports relies upon. If you want to see eSports go under the bus, then please keep posting stupid NPW threads, but don't say I didn't warn you when you get flamed into the ground. If you really want to be the best, and enjoy playing SC2, use your brain, think, be creative, and think outside the box. Maybe you will be the one to invent the new Reaver Drop or the new Vulture micro. Who knows, the game is there waiting for us to unlock it's mysteries, but instead we want them explicitly thrown in our face. Don't do this, a fine game is like a fine wine, there are so many layers and intricacies that drinking it once simply won't do. You have to peel away the layers of flavor and musk in order to find the true beauty of the wine. Wine, like Starcraft, is a fickle lover, she does not reveal her secrets to anyone, you must deem yourself worthy of understanding her secrets, but once you do, no one can stop you. To summarize, STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING, STOP FUCKING WHINING, AND PLAY THE FUCKING GAME.
Great OP. I've pointed out similar ideas in other threads, but never really wrote up a whole thing this size.
You don't see chess grandmasters saying "Knight is OP, Blizz better nerf it, and holyshit better buff bishops"
Edit: spoiler'd the quote cause its huge.
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So you start out by saying, how people should just get better and make their race work, and then you go on saying that its the maps thats balanced wrong, like you know everything, and then start whinning over other people are whining.
Really it just seems like you're one of the other people that are whining, you are just whining over something else
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You know, i just never whine about balance because i have total faith in blizzard's decision (yeah.. /o/) AND i think there's enough guys in the community to cry about imbalance whenever they can. But seriously without them ? where would the game be atm.
how could we ever limit the amount of whine necessary to balance the game?
is your solution "Blizzard - IMO you should ban everyone who complains for a nerf or patch unless you ask them." really ? 
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On December 17 2010 01:34 Gulzt wrote:
I don't agree. People complain all the time about everything. Due to being insecure, having too big of an ego, you name it.
All you're doing here is complain about complaining, in the end it's you who's not enjoying this because you feel just as 'annoyed' as the people that are complaining in the first place.
It's very simple: on the B.net forums you just set everyone on "ignore" that you think makes stupid posts. You make sure you never click a post that talks about imbalance etc..
Why am I writing this? Because I thought you were complaining about the patches too, but it seems your title is slightly misleading: You wrote just another whine-thread. Not about the game, but about the community. It's all the same. The game = the community. If you let your fun be ruined by people's (stupid) thoughts you are ruining your own pleasure in the game. Find the people that enjoy it on the same level as you and just relax.. ignore stupidity , let them be pissed at the game, they will keep playing and you will feel bad.
Trust blizzard that they won't be stupid about the patches, so far they've done a great job. Every patch means complaints, and so far most people are rather happy with 1.1.3 right?
Cheers.
I completely agree with this. We all just need to trust blizzard. I come from WC3, and all the changes they made in that game were reasonable. No patch ever broke the game (except when they stopped caring about WC3 and now UDvOC is yeah...). Why kids think they know more about balancing a game than the game's creator baffles me. In the end, I'm sure the developers are smart enough to know what the right changes are.
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On December 17 2010 01:38 MasterJack wrote:
Blizzard have created the most successful PC franchise in the last decade.
Their previous game started an e-sport craze in an entire country.
Until they mess up this track record with multi-crazy-patching-based-on-forum-posts, stop whining, as you suggest.
THIS is what I am driving at.
Blizzard fell to community pressure with WoW, and everyone who played for a long time knows it. They made it stupidly easy compared to what it was.
I don't want to see this happen with SC2, and I am genuinely worried because there aren't more than 10 non-QQ posts on the b.net forums, which Blizzard reads much more than TL I would assume.
If whiners keep this stuff up, then SC2 is only destined to fall to the same fate as WoW...
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I agree with the sentiment but the best thing you can do is ignore the trolls.
The SC2 community is awesome if you find the right place to hang out...like TL.net!
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On December 17 2010 01:35 Chronald wrote:Show nested quote +That's an odd contradiction. You trust that Blizzard knows what they want, but then you complain about Nerfs and Patches (the P in NPW). You know, the things that Blizzard makes. Whining doesn't get patches made; coders and designers at Blizzard get patches made. Blizzard makes video games. Not nerfs or patches. Nerfs and patches are updates to the games they have made based upon user experiences. When users don't give positive feedback, and simply generate bad vibes nothing good gets done. Many people have attitudes that, 10 years ago, would have stifled the birth of eSports in the first place..
Nerfs and patches are updates to the game made by Blizzard. The content of "nerfs and patches" is the content that they wish to create. That content is made by whatever scheme Blizzard intends to use.
People have whinned until they were blue in the fingers for things in WoW that have never materialized. The simple fact is this: Blizzard isn't listening. Or at least, they're not making decisions solely or even primarily based on what people on a forum are saying.
If you don't like where WoW has gone, then point your finger at the responsible party: Blizzard Entertainment. They made the patches. They made the decisions you don't like. It is their fault.
In short, I don't buy your premise or your evidence.
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On December 17 2010 01:40 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:19 Chronald wrote:I posted this on the Battle.net Forums and wanted to share with you guys to see what you think. OP : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1536476340PS: The part about people who read "these forums" is talking about b.net forums obviously. Greetings, I have never been one to post on these forums, yet I do lurk here quite often. This post is a culmination of many things that I have been upset about and angry with since the release of Starcraft 2. Namely, nerfs, patches, and whining (NPW from here on out). First I want to preamble with a little bit about myself. I have been gaming since the SNES, and have been competitive at games like Super Smash Brothers, Mario Kart (yes there are tournaments), Counter Strike, WoW, and Starcraft. Clearly the console games don't get patched like PC games, so they don't really factor into this discussion. I want to bring to the reader's attention the horrible side-effects of NPW. NPW drastically dumbs down games. When players and forum posters complain about "oh MULEs are OP" or "Hydras are UP" it only bottlenecks the player's thinking. If you are an eSports fan than you know who SlayerSBoxeR is. BoxeR isn't famous for winning all of his championships. He is famous for HOW he did it. BoxeR took the struggling Terran race of the early 2000s and rocketed the Terran to the best race, hands down. This didn't happen because he whined to Blizzard for some kind of buff, it isn't because he started playing right after some major patch. It is because he ACCEPTED THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS. That's right, he didn't complain about imbalance, he didn't post stupid ass thread on teamliquid or battle.net. Instead he MADE IT WORK. He FOUND A WAY TO WIN. These are the major mental steps that I want to highlight. Players that bottlenecks themselves with NPW do nothing beneficial for themselves. In fact I would go as far to say that they put a timer on their ability to play. Players who fall victim to NPW don't want to play until the patch comes out, don't want to practice "some stupid UP race". Would SlayerSBoxeR do that? Hell no. Players and fans need to pull their heads out of their own asses, and trust the Blizzard knows what they are doing. PLUS, if any of these complainers were ACTUALLY GOOD, they would know that the true imbalance in this game right now is Blizzard's shitty ass maps (yes every single map they have made, sucks, hard, except maaaaybe Shakuras, but even then..). What I am trying to display is how community effort to get games patched or aspects nerfed never satisfies anyone. Only the people who are positively affected by the change are happy, and in Starcraft that is less than 30%, unless you play Terran. Basically, by nerfing the game once, Blizzard is forced to nerf it again. Look at what has happened to WoW. When WoW came out it was a hardcore, awesome ass MMORPG, kicked EQ2 and DaoC in the ass. Clearly there were some balance issues in vanilla WoW (rogues could backstab with swords in the early days) so they HAD to patch those to make sure people still played. But after years of player's NPW-ing the game is completely different and boring. Raids don't present the mental challenge they used to, the game is completely based on numbers not skill. Skill does show up in PvP, and I think that is why Blizzard is pushing PvP so much hard these days. However, I would go so far as to say that without as much NPW from the community, WoW would still be the fucking awesome, 40man raiding, world PvP-ing behemoth that is was. (Disclaimer: I have played WoW on and off from release. I have had each class at max level, either 60/70/80. I refuse to play cataclysm due to RL, and lack of interest.) But now we look at RTS games. The difference with an RTS game is that NPW does NOTHING TO MAKE THEM BETTER. Starcraft 2 is a 90% balanced game imo, +/- 5%, and this means that the patches that need to happen are small, and not paradigm shifting. So many posters ask for "MULE nerfs" or "Fast Hydras" or whatever the fuck, and this is stuuuuupid. Completely changing the role of a unit would knock the carefully placed balances off their rockers. This game has been in the making for TEN+ FUCKING YEARS. I think Blizzard knows what role they want units to fill. The driving theme of this post is to encourage members of the community to not post about what they want Blizzard to change, or how Blizzard has fucked up. I want to see a community like Brood War's, where players devise new strategies with the pieces they are given. I don't remember who said it, Nony I think, on the State of the Game Podcast, Starcraft 2 is a intelligence-limited game. Players have to find out what their opponents are doing. THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT. Blizzard shouldn't have to hold your hand, and say, "Look your opponent is making hydras, this means that you should build collosus." Frankly, Blizzard is too nice to most of the posters here. I feel like these are complain-boards, where under-skilled players go to NPW about the game. If you hit a plateau in your play, it isn't Blizzard's job to help you through it, it is yours. When you buy a chess set, the toy store doesn't come to your house every day to play with you, you have to practice on your own. Maybe people who bought SC2 didn't realize that they would actually have to be accountable for their skill. I think a lot of new-age WoW players who are used to well-fare epics and stupid badge gear have bought SC2 thinking that they can be the best without ever thinking about what the game is. SC2 isn't your normal online game, its competitive, its fast, its completely on you. Losing in SC2 is much worse than dying in WoW or dying in CS, because death there doesn't lose you the entire game. Maybe in certain situations, but most of the time it doesn't. You have a team to rely on, resurrections to work with. SC2 doesn't have that, if you fuck up, you fucked up, that's it. Perhaps I am ranting, perhaps I'm not. But I think that people are completely un-aware of what they are doing the community. This game will never last if people only focus on what is bad. There are so many fucking awesome things about SC2 compared to BW. Multiple Building Select O_O I can't wait to see Jaedong or Flash play SC2 so they don't have to use 90% of their godly APM for macro. Same with unit selections. People, grow up and stop whining. Blizzard has made a game that should, and will ( I feel ), be the best PC game of all time. By whining and complaining for Blizzard to nerf or patch the game you take away from the value of the game. You make it seem that Blizzard hasn't done anything right, and that the game is bad. THIS GAME IS NOT BAD PERIOD. Blizzard - IMO you should ban everyone who complains for a nerf or patch unless you ask them. NPW makes games not fun, it makes it not fun to be a part of the community that drives the game. And sadly, it is this community that eSports relies upon. If you want to see eSports go under the bus, then please keep posting stupid NPW threads, but don't say I didn't warn you when you get flamed into the ground. If you really want to be the best, and enjoy playing SC2, use your brain, think, be creative, and think outside the box. Maybe you will be the one to invent the new Reaver Drop or the new Vulture micro. Who knows, the game is there waiting for us to unlock it's mysteries, but instead we want them explicitly thrown in our face. Don't do this, a fine game is like a fine wine, there are so many layers and intricacies that drinking it once simply won't do. You have to peel away the layers of flavor and musk in order to find the true beauty of the wine. Wine, like Starcraft, is a fickle lover, she does not reveal her secrets to anyone, you must deem yourself worthy of understanding her secrets, but once you do, no one can stop you. To summarize, STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING, STOP FUCKING WHINING, AND PLAY THE FUCKING GAME. Great OP. I've pointed out similar ideas in other threads, but never really wrote up a whole thing this size. You don't see chess grandmasters saying "Knight is OP, Blizz better nerf it, and holyshit better buff bishops"
OMFG pls stop comparing it to chess!!!!
Chess is over 1500 years old, the original game looks and plays nothing like the one we now play.... chess has been developed by millions of people over 2 millenia. Not to mention that Chess, while being extremely complex and taking years to master, is not 1% as complicted in terms of balance as SC2.
In chess both sides have the same amount of pieces, they have infact the exact same pieces, which can move in set ways on a set board.
If chess came with three different piece sets (that can all move differently from the other sets) and ten different board configurations then you could compare it.
The only comparison between Chess and SC2 is in the mind, the mentality of the players, beyond that its like comparing chalk and cheese.... please stop it
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On December 17 2010 01:42 Chronald wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:38 MasterJack wrote:
Blizzard have created the most successful PC franchise in the last decade.
Their previous game started an e-sport craze in an entire country.
Until they mess up this track record with multi-crazy-patching-based-on-forum-posts, stop whining, as you suggest. THIS is what I am driving at. Blizzard fell to community pressure with WoW, and everyone who played for a long time knows it. They made it stupidly easy compared to what it was. I don't want to see this happen with SC2, and I am genuinely worried because there aren't more than 10 non-QQ posts on the b.net forums, which Blizzard reads much more than TL I would assume. If whiners keep this stuff up, then SC2 is only destined to fall to the same fate as WoW...
They made WoW into what it always was. People complaining about what WoW has become generally fall flat without much merit, so it's a pretty bad comparison and saying they caved to crowd pressure is meaningless. The complaints about PvP or easy to obtain gear sound to me like someone complaining about 4v4 balance being ruined in a patch. The way I see what's happened to WoW is simple. They tried to branch out into more areas to provide a wide variety of gameplay to its users, then realized that they couldn't possibly support and balance all the different aspects of the game so they've receded back a bit and are focusing on making the core experiences the best they can be.
On a side note I LOVE the complaints around PvP gear from WoW people. Anyone who actually values even the slightest bit of PvP should 100% be ecstatic anytime the best gear becomes easier to obtain because it levels the playing field. Anyone who doesn't is not a competitive gamer and shouldn't be commenting at all on competitive gaming in any way shape or form.
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In chess people don't whine that the knight is OP, they whine that the white player is OP.
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Whole post is pointless. Blizzard does NOT listen to crying. They listen for FEEDBACK on things that many people consider OP, then put extensive testing to those things. They only get changed if Blizzard themselves deem it necessary, not because people complained.
Take Marauders. They were bitched about since beta, and still are. They are not getting changed though because terran need them vs protoss ground or roach based armies.
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Calgary25988 Posts
On December 17 2010 01:28 echO [W] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:23 navara wrote:
are you complaining ? ..
i think if we are it's because we care. I think theres a limit to the complaining that people should be doing, and from my perspective I think we have passed that limit by leaps and bounds. Liquid`Tyler spoke about this on the last State of the Game and I think iNcontroL also did too and what they pretty much said is what the OP here is saying. Back in Brood War people did not expect Blizzard to do anything so they essentially took it upon themselves to figure out how to overcome the supposed deficiencies or the "imbalances"
That comment by Tyler really struck home with me. Back in the day people used to blame players first, rarely maps, and never imbalance. It was amazing to see someone hold the trophy and 99.99% of the credit being given to him. These days it just spawns discussion of imbalance and maps. It seems the player often comes third in importance. I don't like that 
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On December 17 2010 01:51 Fa1nT wrote:
Whole post is pointless. Blizzard does NOT listen to crying. They listen for FEEDBACK on things that many people consider OP, then put extensive testing to those things. They only get changed if Blizzard themselves deem it necessary, not because people complained.
Seriously.
Blizzard has said time and time again that they hold back on balance changes to make sure they're not solving flavour-of-the-week problems that can just as easily be solved by the metagame.
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Thanks for your dissertation whining about whining you have changed my outlook on the issue of whether or not people whining is annoying with your insight and capital-lettered curse words.
You should submit that for publishing.
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On December 17 2010 01:45 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:40 Millitron wrote:On December 17 2010 01:19 Chronald wrote:I posted this on the Battle.net Forums and wanted to share with you guys to see what you think. OP : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1536476340PS: The part about people who read "these forums" is talking about b.net forums obviously. Greetings, I have never been one to post on these forums, yet I do lurk here quite often. This post is a culmination of many things that I have been upset about and angry with since the release of Starcraft 2. Namely, nerfs, patches, and whining (NPW from here on out). First I want to preamble with a little bit about myself. I have been gaming since the SNES, and have been competitive at games like Super Smash Brothers, Mario Kart (yes there are tournaments), Counter Strike, WoW, and Starcraft. Clearly the console games don't get patched like PC games, so they don't really factor into this discussion. I want to bring to the reader's attention the horrible side-effects of NPW. NPW drastically dumbs down games. When players and forum posters complain about "oh MULEs are OP" or "Hydras are UP" it only bottlenecks the player's thinking. If you are an eSports fan than you know who SlayerSBoxeR is. BoxeR isn't famous for winning all of his championships. He is famous for HOW he did it. BoxeR took the struggling Terran race of the early 2000s and rocketed the Terran to the best race, hands down. This didn't happen because he whined to Blizzard for some kind of buff, it isn't because he started playing right after some major patch. It is because he ACCEPTED THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS. That's right, he didn't complain about imbalance, he didn't post stupid ass thread on teamliquid or battle.net. Instead he MADE IT WORK. He FOUND A WAY TO WIN. These are the major mental steps that I want to highlight. Players that bottlenecks themselves with NPW do nothing beneficial for themselves. In fact I would go as far to say that they put a timer on their ability to play. Players who fall victim to NPW don't want to play until the patch comes out, don't want to practice "some stupid UP race". Would SlayerSBoxeR do that? Hell no. Players and fans need to pull their heads out of their own asses, and trust the Blizzard knows what they are doing. PLUS, if any of these complainers were ACTUALLY GOOD, they would know that the true imbalance in this game right now is Blizzard's shitty ass maps (yes every single map they have made, sucks, hard, except maaaaybe Shakuras, but even then..). What I am trying to display is how community effort to get games patched or aspects nerfed never satisfies anyone. Only the people who are positively affected by the change are happy, and in Starcraft that is less than 30%, unless you play Terran. Basically, by nerfing the game once, Blizzard is forced to nerf it again. Look at what has happened to WoW. When WoW came out it was a hardcore, awesome ass MMORPG, kicked EQ2 and DaoC in the ass. Clearly there were some balance issues in vanilla WoW (rogues could backstab with swords in the early days) so they HAD to patch those to make sure people still played. But after years of player's NPW-ing the game is completely different and boring. Raids don't present the mental challenge they used to, the game is completely based on numbers not skill. Skill does show up in PvP, and I think that is why Blizzard is pushing PvP so much hard these days. However, I would go so far as to say that without as much NPW from the community, WoW would still be the fucking awesome, 40man raiding, world PvP-ing behemoth that is was. (Disclaimer: I have played WoW on and off from release. I have had each class at max level, either 60/70/80. I refuse to play cataclysm due to RL, and lack of interest.) But now we look at RTS games. The difference with an RTS game is that NPW does NOTHING TO MAKE THEM BETTER. Starcraft 2 is a 90% balanced game imo, +/- 5%, and this means that the patches that need to happen are small, and not paradigm shifting. So many posters ask for "MULE nerfs" or "Fast Hydras" or whatever the fuck, and this is stuuuuupid. Completely changing the role of a unit would knock the carefully placed balances off their rockers. This game has been in the making for TEN+ FUCKING YEARS. I think Blizzard knows what role they want units to fill. The driving theme of this post is to encourage members of the community to not post about what they want Blizzard to change, or how Blizzard has fucked up. I want to see a community like Brood War's, where players devise new strategies with the pieces they are given. I don't remember who said it, Nony I think, on the State of the Game Podcast, Starcraft 2 is a intelligence-limited game. Players have to find out what their opponents are doing. THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT. Blizzard shouldn't have to hold your hand, and say, "Look your opponent is making hydras, this means that you should build collosus." Frankly, Blizzard is too nice to most of the posters here. I feel like these are complain-boards, where under-skilled players go to NPW about the game. If you hit a plateau in your play, it isn't Blizzard's job to help you through it, it is yours. When you buy a chess set, the toy store doesn't come to your house every day to play with you, you have to practice on your own. Maybe people who bought SC2 didn't realize that they would actually have to be accountable for their skill. I think a lot of new-age WoW players who are used to well-fare epics and stupid badge gear have bought SC2 thinking that they can be the best without ever thinking about what the game is. SC2 isn't your normal online game, its competitive, its fast, its completely on you. Losing in SC2 is much worse than dying in WoW or dying in CS, because death there doesn't lose you the entire game. Maybe in certain situations, but most of the time it doesn't. You have a team to rely on, resurrections to work with. SC2 doesn't have that, if you fuck up, you fucked up, that's it. Perhaps I am ranting, perhaps I'm not. But I think that people are completely un-aware of what they are doing the community. This game will never last if people only focus on what is bad. There are so many fucking awesome things about SC2 compared to BW. Multiple Building Select O_O I can't wait to see Jaedong or Flash play SC2 so they don't have to use 90% of their godly APM for macro. Same with unit selections. People, grow up and stop whining. Blizzard has made a game that should, and will ( I feel ), be the best PC game of all time. By whining and complaining for Blizzard to nerf or patch the game you take away from the value of the game. You make it seem that Blizzard hasn't done anything right, and that the game is bad. THIS GAME IS NOT BAD PERIOD. Blizzard - IMO you should ban everyone who complains for a nerf or patch unless you ask them. NPW makes games not fun, it makes it not fun to be a part of the community that drives the game. And sadly, it is this community that eSports relies upon. If you want to see eSports go under the bus, then please keep posting stupid NPW threads, but don't say I didn't warn you when you get flamed into the ground. If you really want to be the best, and enjoy playing SC2, use your brain, think, be creative, and think outside the box. Maybe you will be the one to invent the new Reaver Drop or the new Vulture micro. Who knows, the game is there waiting for us to unlock it's mysteries, but instead we want them explicitly thrown in our face. Don't do this, a fine game is like a fine wine, there are so many layers and intricacies that drinking it once simply won't do. You have to peel away the layers of flavor and musk in order to find the true beauty of the wine. Wine, like Starcraft, is a fickle lover, she does not reveal her secrets to anyone, you must deem yourself worthy of understanding her secrets, but once you do, no one can stop you. To summarize, STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING, STOP FUCKING WHINING, AND PLAY THE FUCKING GAME. Great OP. I've pointed out similar ideas in other threads, but never really wrote up a whole thing this size. You don't see chess grandmasters saying "Knight is OP, Blizz better nerf it, and holyshit better buff bishops" OMFG pls stop comparing it to chess!!!! Chess is over 1500 years old, the original game looks and plays nothing like the one we now play.... chess has been developed by millions of people over 2 millenia. Not to mention that Chess, while being extremely complex and taking years to master, is not 1% as complicted in terms of balance as SC2. In chess both sides have the same amount of pieces, they have infact the exact same pieces, which can move in set ways on a set board. If chess came with three different piece sets (that can all move differently from the other sets) and ten different board configurations then you could compare it. The only comparison between Chess and SC2 is in the mind, the mentality of the players, beyond that its like comparing chalk and cheese.... please stop it
There are plenty of other games that involve the same idea. You don't see Football coaches complaining that the Offensive line has one more tackle than the defensive line. They just play the game.
If they keep patching, it will never be balanced, because the meta-game will never settle into a standard form. A fluid meta-game is equivalent to an imbalanced game.
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That comment by Tyler really struck home with me. Back in the day people used to blame players first, rarely maps, and never imbalance. It was amazing to see someone hold the trophy and 99.99% of the credit being given to him. These days it just spawns discussion of imbalance and maps. It seems the player often comes third in importance. I don't like that
What time are you referring to when you say "back in the day"?
Because pre 2000 StarCraft was pretty broken and everyone knew it. When a Terran or even Protoss beat a Zerg, he got way more respect than when a Zerg beat a Zerg...
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EPT
