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Why Nerfs, Patches and Whining Ruin Games - Page 5

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Liquid_Adun
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada205 Posts
December 16 2010 18:33 GMT
#81
my only problem with sc2 atm is that my wonderful terran race has to try to win in the beginning or it will get harder and harder, and there are no more impossible to break through in one try tank lines, that don't need support to survive alone hehe. Loved the 2 hour games that only terran made possible. Makes pro games a bit boring. See a 10 minute pvt replay terran won 20 minutes toss won atleast most of the time.

But this is more something you can only balance with introducing new units (expansion) or if players find out new moves, like a super good eye for emp range and hitting the hts the 0.5 range before they get into feedback range hehe.


Scan for observers. gun them down. cloak the ghost and emp it. Sensor towers are fantastic for seeing observers on the map. Generally late game is harder for everyone, you have more you need to do. Dont worry youll get use to it.

Thanks for the post, Adun


I have returned.
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 18:38:09
December 16 2010 18:36 GMT
#82
On December 17 2010 03:29 FeyFey wrote:
my only problem with sc2 atm is that my wonderful terran race has to try to win in the beginning or it will get harder and harder, and there are no more impossible to break through in one try tank lines, that don't need support to survive alone hehe. Loved the 2 hour games that only terran made possible. Makes pro games a bit boring. See a 10 minute pvt replay terran won 20 minutes toss won atleast most of the time.

But this is more something you can only balance with introducing new units (expansion) or if players find out new moves, like a super good eye for emp range and hitting the hts the 0.5 range before they get into feedback range hehe.


EMPing vs HT is all a matter of who is quicker on the draw. I love it, its like a good old fashioned duel at dawn.

Terrans don't have to win fast, Jinro has proven that you can play a macro game with T. Most Terrans never think about getting a fast 3rd, if they don't win early they do a 2 base timing push, if that fails they are then usually fucked until their third is fully saturated... Jinro usually gets his third up BEFORE he does his big push, meaning he can replenish and tech switch much easier.

I am no pro, not good by any standard, but we can all agree that once u hit a certain level, me playing vs someone my own level should have roughly the same results as Jinro playing someone at his level (over a long series of matches, so long as the players are the same level as their opponent, the results will be roughly the same when using the same strats). When I get a fast 3rd against Z I usually win or atleast its a tight game, if i go for a 2 base timing push and then expo.... i either win there and then or lose 5 minutes later.
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
December 16 2010 18:41 GMT
#83
A couple things...

Most people on Team Liquid and many other sc2 sites will only complain about things that better players have complained about. Sitting here bitching about all the retarded team liquid posts is quite stupid because for the most part they hear something from a player they look up to that says how underpowered their race is or how overpowered a certain unit is. Look at what marineking does with marines and how broken that seems. Look at how slow hydras are yet they are zergs "anti-air" yet they can't catch up the harass.

Next, you compare SC2 to WOW in your original post way too much when the games aren't alike at all. If blizzard only makes sc2 easier and easier it doesn't matter at all. When blizzard makes wow easier and easier it sucks because all the endgame content you can do (yes wow IS a PvE game) is all AI and therefore if it gets easier for you then the whole purpose of the game gets boring.

Look at sc2 though, if Blizzard patches this game to make it "easier" because they listen to all the whining then what really would change? Nothing.
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
kusu
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden440 Posts
December 16 2010 18:43 GMT
#84
This is EXACTLY what I've been thinking about for some weeks. It's the ATTITUDE!
I feel like most players have the mindset of "if something is hard, it is imba"
Instead of in BW, where it was like "this is hard, but if the pros can do it, I just need to practise more!"

Just play the game, figure out what made you lose, check what you could have done better and stop thinking something is imbalanced.

Thanks.
Expa bör man annars dör man! A game withouth me, is a game not worth winning!
Liquid_Adun
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada205 Posts
December 16 2010 18:46 GMT
#85
A couple things...

Most people on Team Liquid and many other sc2 sites will only complain about things that better players have complained about. Sitting here bitching about all the retarded team liquid posts is quite stupid because for the most part they hear something from a player they look up to that says how underpowered their race is or how overpowered a certain unit is. Look at what marineking does with marines and how broken that seems. Look at how slow hydras are yet they are zergs "anti-air" yet they can't catch up the harass.

Next, you compare SC2 to WOW in your original post way too much when the games aren't alike at all. If blizzard only makes sc2 easier and easier it doesn't matter at all. When blizzard makes wow easier and easier it sucks because all the endgame content you can do (yes wow IS a PvE game) is all AI and therefore if it gets easier for you then the whole purpose of the game gets boring.

Look at sc2 though, if Blizzard patches this game to make it "easier" because they listen to all the whining then what really would change? Nothing.


This is a case of should we balance the game at which level, pro?, noob? 2v2? 3v3? or 4v4? or go for all of them. You pretty much have to pick one of those. a game like sc2 cannot be balanced at all levels. At the noob level the race with physically stronger units is going to be the best. I dont want to really go to much into this but basically. They need to focus the balance somewhere and just minority account for other areas. as much as some people like 1v1s there are people who buy the game solely for the 2v2s.

Thanks for your concerns, Adun
I have returned.
AzurewinD
Profile Joined November 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 18:49:34
December 16 2010 18:47 GMT
#86
I can agree with the sentiment of the OP. However, at the very least, critical debate and constructive thought is necessary to point out flaws in the game. Whining of course falls under neither of the aforementioned categories.

On a side note, I must say, it's incredibly difficult to get behind an argument WHEN almost EVERY other WORD is CAPITALIZED so as to ARTIFICIALLY inject EMPHASIS into your POINTS. It's like we are TOO STUPID to understand the IMPORTANT PARTS OF YOUR ARGUMENT without you YELLING AT US.

I am NOT SURE but I would WAGER alot of MONEY that if you tried to have a MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION in this way with someone on the STREET, some people might NOT APPRECIATE IT.
"...I want more people to be in that state more often, to see things not through the limited and rigid mind or the fearful ego, but through a heart that loves to express and create" - Xiaonan "Glider" Sun
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
December 16 2010 18:49 GMT
#87
Completely agree with your ranting. The game isn't balanced, and anything beyond +/- 5% is beyond Blizzard's satisfaction as well, so I'm not sure why you threw out those numbers.

And Boxer himself even complained when Zerg got buffs in the last patch and also [essentially] said that Z had an advantage over T (I believe this is before the dominance of all the marine/scv allins).
Knee_of_Justice
Profile Joined October 2009
United States388 Posts
December 16 2010 18:51 GMT
#88
Get used to NPW: this is part one of three.

I think there is something to be said for your argument. Look at supersmash bros melee. No patches, just people learning how to abuse their character. Of course, they are completely different game types (the presence of many "throwaway characters" doesn't exist in a 3 race RTS, for example, or nearly unbreakable combos), but the basic premise still stands: if you want to beat shiek as captain falcon (very tough), you just have to play better and abuse your character better.

We saw a little bit of this mindset with the reaper nonsense vs zerg before it was patched.

On the other hand, as someone pointed out earlier, you dont seem to distinguish between necessary nerfs (like the spawning pool/4pool nerf in BW) which prevented game-breaking strategies, and less than necessary nerfs like the VR nerfs and the reaper nerfs.

I think it is ok to whine a bit and call (sparingly) for nerfs/buffs as long as you are aware that nothing will help you more than just learning to be a better (insert race here) player.

I could go on and on about flawed design vs ideal design and its relation to balance (which is what a lot of people whine about) but i think ill stop here.
Protoss Tactical Guide: http://www.sc2armory.com/forums/topic/7903
Liquid_Adun
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada205 Posts
December 16 2010 18:51 GMT
#89
AzurewinD United States. December 17 2010 03:47. Posts 50 PM Profile Quote #
I can agree with the sentiment of the OP. However, at the very least, critical debate and constructive thought is necessary to point out flaws in the game. Whining of course falls under neither of the aforementioned categories.

On a side note, I must say, it's incredibly difficult to get behind an argument WHEN almost EVERY other WORD is CAPITALIZED so as to ARTIFICIALLY inject EMPHASIS into your POINTS. It's like we are TOO STUPID to understand the IMPORTANT PARTS OF YOUR ARGUMENT without you YELLING AT US.

I am NOT SURE but I would WAGER alot of MONEY that if you tried to have a MEANINGFUL DISCUSSION with someone on the STREET people might NOT APPRECIATE IT.


Some people are obviously under the impression that caps lock is somehow cruise control for cool. Id agree with you as well.

Thanks for keeping them in line, Adun
I have returned.
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 18:55:55
December 16 2010 18:54 GMT
#90
Wasn't SlayerS_BoxeR the one who said he would change race if Terran got nerfed again in SC2?

There's obvious reasons why people whine so much:

1. Blizzard listens to balance feedback (whining) and as such people are rewarded for their (obnoxious) behaviour.

2. It's much harder to focus on overcoming certain obstacles when there's a chance Blizzard might patch your problem away.

3. It's much easier on the ego to to blame racial balance for losses.
I think esports is pretty nice.
Chronald
Profile Joined December 2009
United States619 Posts
December 16 2010 18:57 GMT
#91
On December 17 2010 03:54 Saechiis wrote:
Wasn't SlayerS_BoxeR the one who said he would change race if Terran got nerfed again in SC2?

There's obvious reasons why people whine so much:

1. Blizzard listens to balance feedback (whining) and as such people are rewarded for their (obnoxious) behaviour.

2. It's much harder to focus on overcoming certain obstacles when there's a chance Blizzard might patch your problem away.

3. It's much easier on the ego to to blame racial balance for losses.



Bam. That's a nutshell if I have seen one.
Got that.
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
December 16 2010 18:57 GMT
#92
On December 17 2010 02:57 Leviwtf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2010 02:47 Grimjim wrote:
@ OP: It's quite ironic you mentioned Boxer as your prime example for not whining, seeing as after a recent GSL he said in an interview something along the lines of "I think Terran is too weak. I might go random if I lose again". Not exactly, but along those lines.

Yup, even the pros whine.


No one said they didn't but actions speak louder than words.

he also said some time later that he just likes to whine regardless of actual balance.

i like how everyone is giving the OP shit for telling people to just play the game and quit complaining. is this really some hotly contested topic? i mean, are you FOR balance complaints?
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
Liquid_Adun
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada205 Posts
December 16 2010 18:58 GMT
#93
Saechiis Netherlands. December 17 2010 03:54. Posts 1145 PM Profile Quote #
Wasn't SlayerS_BoxeR the one who said he would change race if Terran got nerfed again in SC2?

There's obvious reasons why people whine so much:

1. Blizzard listens to balance feedback (whining) and as such people are rewarded for their (obnoxious) behaviour.

2. It's much harder to focus on overcoming certain obstacles when there's a chance Blizzard might patch your problem away.

3. It's much easier to blame racial balance for losses then to question one's enormous ego.



An evolutionary adaptation, babies cry when they are hungry. It is likely that in the past babies who didnt cry when they were hungry might miss meals. Busy parents can sometimes forget.

Hope this helps, Adun
I have returned.
funk100
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom172 Posts
December 16 2010 19:01 GMT
#94
like the thread alot, BUUUUUUUT i think that there should still be threads and ideas on ways to change SC2 for the better in terms of design, playability and watchability because one of them, maybe, just might strike gold
after every post "oh god I hope i've made sence"
gongryong
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Korea (South)1430 Posts
December 16 2010 19:03 GMT
#95
navara December 17 2010 01:23
are you complaining ? ..
i think if we are it's because we care.

User was warned for this post


What's wrong with the reply above that it got red-lined?

Millitron December 17 2010 01:40
Show nested quote +
+ Show Spoiler +
On December 17 2010 01:19 Chronald wrote:
I posted this on the Battle.net Forums and wanted to share with you guys to see what you think.

OP : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1536476340

PS: The part about people who read "these forums" is talking about b.net forums obviously.


Greetings,

I have never been one to post on these forums, yet I do lurk here quite often. This post is a culmination of many things that I have been upset about and angry with since the release of Starcraft 2. Namely, nerfs, patches, and whining (NPW from here on out). First I want to preamble with a little bit about myself. I have been gaming since the SNES, and have been competitive at games like Super Smash Brothers, Mario Kart (yes there are tournaments), Counter Strike, WoW, and Starcraft. Clearly the console games don't get patched like PC games, so they don't really factor into this discussion.

I want to bring to the reader's attention the horrible side-effects of NPW. NPW drastically dumbs down games. When players and forum posters complain about "oh MULEs are OP" or "Hydras are UP" it only bottlenecks the player's thinking. If you are an eSports fan than you know who SlayerSBoxeR is. BoxeR isn't famous for winning all of his championships. He is famous for HOW he did it. BoxeR took the struggling Terran race of the early 2000s and rocketed the Terran to the best race, hands down. This didn't happen because he whined to Blizzard for some kind of buff, it isn't because he started playing right after some major patch. It is because he ACCEPTED THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS. That's right, he didn't complain about imbalance, he didn't post stupid ass thread on teamliquid or battle.net. Instead he MADE IT WORK. He FOUND A WAY TO WIN. These are the major mental steps that I want to highlight.

Players that bottlenecks themselves with NPW do nothing beneficial for themselves. In fact I would go as far to say that they put a timer on their ability to play. Players who fall victim to NPW don't want to play until the patch comes out, don't want to practice "some stupid UP race". Would SlayerSBoxeR do that? Hell no. Players and fans need to pull their heads out of their own asses, and trust the Blizzard knows what they are doing. PLUS, if any of these complainers were ACTUALLY GOOD, they would know that the true imbalance in this game right now is Blizzard's shitty ass maps (yes every single map they have made, sucks, hard, except maaaaybe Shakuras, but even then..).

What I am trying to display is how community effort to get games patched or aspects nerfed never satisfies anyone. Only the people who are positively affected by the change are happy, and in Starcraft that is less than 30%, unless you play Terran. Basically, by nerfing the game once, Blizzard is forced to nerf it again. Look at what has happened to WoW. When WoW came out it was a hardcore, awesome ass MMORPG, kicked EQ2 and DaoC in the ass. Clearly there were some balance issues in vanilla WoW (rogues could backstab with swords in the early days) so they HAD to patch those to make sure people still played. But after years of player's NPW-ing the game is completely different and boring. Raids don't present the mental challenge they used to, the game is completely based on numbers not skill. Skill does show up in PvP, and I think that is why Blizzard is pushing PvP so much hard these days. However, I would go so far as to say that without as much NPW from the community, WoW would still be the fucking awesome, 40man raiding, world PvP-ing behemoth that is was. (Disclaimer: I have played WoW on and off from release. I have had each class at max level, either 60/70/80. I refuse to play cataclysm due to RL, and lack of interest.)

But now we look at RTS games. The difference with an RTS game is that NPW does NOTHING TO MAKE THEM BETTER. Starcraft 2 is a 90% balanced game imo, +/- 5%, and this means that the patches that need to happen are small, and not paradigm shifting. So many posters ask for "MULE nerfs" or "Fast Hydras" or whatever the fuck, and this is stuuuuupid. Completely changing the role of a unit would knock the carefully placed balances off their rockers. This game has been in the making for TEN+ FUCKING YEARS. I think Blizzard knows what role they want units to fill.

The driving theme of this post is to encourage members of the community to not post about what they want Blizzard to change, or how Blizzard has fucked up. I want to see a community like Brood War's, where players devise new strategies with the pieces they are given. I don't remember who said it, Nony I think, on the State of the Game Podcast, Starcraft 2 is a intelligence-limited game. Players have to find out what their opponents are doing. THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT. Blizzard shouldn't have to hold your hand, and say, "Look your opponent is making hydras, this means that you should build collosus." Frankly, Blizzard is too nice to most of the posters here. I feel like these are complain-boards, where under-skilled players go to NPW about the game. If you hit a plateau in your play, it isn't Blizzard's job to help you through it, it is yours. When you buy a chess set, the toy store doesn't come to your house every day to play with you, you have to practice on your own.

Maybe people who bought SC2 didn't realize that they would actually have to be accountable for their skill. I think a lot of new-age WoW players who are used to well-fare epics and stupid badge gear have bought SC2 thinking that they can be the best without ever thinking about what the game is. SC2 isn't your normal online game, its competitive, its fast, its completely on you. Losing in SC2 is much worse than dying in WoW or dying in CS, because death there doesn't lose you the entire game. Maybe in certain situations, but most of the time it doesn't. You have a team to rely on, resurrections to work with. SC2 doesn't have that, if you fuck up, you fucked up, that's it.

Perhaps I am ranting, perhaps I'm not. But I think that people are completely un-aware of what they are doing the community. This game will never last if people only focus on what is bad. There are so many fucking awesome things about SC2 compared to BW. Multiple Building Select O_O I can't wait to see Jaedong or Flash play SC2 so they don't have to use 90% of their godly APM for macro. Same with unit selections. People, grow up and stop whining. Blizzard has made a game that should, and will ( I feel ), be the best PC game of all time.

By whining and complaining for Blizzard to nerf or patch the game you take away from the value of the game. You make it seem that Blizzard hasn't done anything right, and that the game is bad. THIS GAME IS NOT BAD PERIOD. Blizzard - IMO you should ban everyone who complains for a nerf or patch unless you ask them.

NPW makes games not fun, it makes it not fun to be a part of the community that drives the game. And sadly, it is this community that eSports relies upon. If you want to see eSports go under the bus, then please keep posting stupid NPW threads, but don't say I didn't warn you when you get flamed into the ground. If you really want to be the best, and enjoy playing SC2, use your brain, think, be creative, and think outside the box. Maybe you will be the one to invent the new Reaver Drop or the new Vulture micro. Who knows, the game is there waiting for us to unlock it's mysteries, but instead we want them explicitly thrown in our face. Don't do this, a fine game is like a fine wine, there are so many layers and intricacies that drinking it once simply won't do. You have to peel away the layers of flavor and musk in order to find the true beauty of the wine. Wine, like Starcraft, is a fickle lover, she does not reveal her secrets to anyone, you must deem yourself worthy of understanding her secrets, but once you do, no one can stop you.

To summarize, STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING, STOP FUCKING WHINING, AND PLAY THE FUCKING GAME.

Great OP. I've pointed out similar ideas in other threads, but never really wrote up a whole thing this size.

You don't see chess grandmasters saying "Knight is OP, Blizz better nerf it, and holyshit better buff bishops"

Edit: spoiler'd the quote cause its huge.


LOL to quoting the ENTIRE OP!



Anyway, there is a fast and simple reply to the OP. SC is a complex game where Blizzard has to mind two opposing interests: overall game balance and race uniqueness. Something this complex and this young ought to be a little rough on the edges. No matter how much the layer of balancing and rechecking was done during development phase, The main purpose of the nerfs and patches is precisely to ensure that the game is decided by the skills and understanding of the many possibilities of the game and proacting/reacting accordingly, and not on the intrinsic infallibility of a certain unit/BO. RTS, after all, are experiential games, which involves almost infinite sets of possibilities. And this experience is derived most importantly from the community. Blizzard's task is to exercise thorough judgment in determining which QQs are player/lack-of-skill based, and which have the benefit reason and to effect due changes without being populist or reactive.

OTOH, there is gold at the core of this OP. Boxer and FruitSeller found ways to be the best at the game AS IT IS. Users/Players should also be responsible enough to exhaust all possibilities, preferably more in terms of practice than theorycraft, before complaining. xd
JAEDONG ÜBERBONJWA!
Seide
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States831 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 19:11:21
December 16 2010 19:05 GMT
#96
why do people in this thread CONSIDER that CAPITALIZING words in ther POSTS, is a good way to EMPHASIZE an ARGUMENT.

or are they having trouble controlling the volume of their voice like Austin Powers?

While nerfs, patches and whining do change a game. It is something that is a part of esports thanks to its growing popularity. Any game that is as new as SC2 at all relies as much on a metagame as SC2 does will have it.

Give it time once the game ages and settles it will die down.
One fish, two fish, red fish, blue fish.
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 19:08:59
December 16 2010 19:06 GMT
#97
On December 17 2010 03:46 Liquid_Adun wrote:

This is a case of should we balance the game at which level, pro?, noob? 2v2? 3v3? or 4v4? or go for all of them. You pretty much have to pick one of those. a game like sc2 cannot be balanced at all levels. At the noob level the race with physically stronger units is going to be the best. I dont want to really go to much into this but basically. They need to focus the balance somewhere and just minority account for other areas. as much as some people like 1v1s there are people who buy the game solely for the 2v2s.

Thanks for your concerns, Adun


I'm also thinking that constantly patching the game is for the best. Sure players won't be able to completely master their race because things are constantly changing but this forces players to bring new build orders or units into the game which changes the game up.

Blizzard will do whatever is best for their game. Which will most likely be whatever brings them in the most new players which I'd assume will probably be team games or lower league players.
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
December 16 2010 19:06 GMT
#98
On December 17 2010 04:01 funk100 wrote:
like the thread alot, BUUUUUUUT i think that there should still be threads and ideas on ways to change SC2 for the better in terms of design, playability and watchability because one of them, maybe, just might strike gold

yes but complaining right now seems like the norm rather than the exception so pretty much every balance thread gets glazed over by good players.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
Gnial
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada907 Posts
December 16 2010 19:11 GMT
#99
Chronald, you're my hero. Its not only on bnet forums (obviously its worse there), but it happens here too. The whining is so bad that the vast majority of decent players just avoid the strategy section all together.
1, eh? 2, eh? 3, eh?
Chronald
Profile Joined December 2009
United States619 Posts
December 16 2010 19:17 GMT
#100
On December 17 2010 04:06 mahnini wrote:
yes but complaining right now seems like the norm rather than the exception so pretty much every balance thread gets glazed over by good players.


Which is something that is clearly an issue for TeamLiquid, considering the most recently State of the Game.

The players who really develop this game have a bad taste in their mouth about TeamLiquid strategy forums and general forums. They post something, and get flamed, bugged and generally spat at for their opinions by people who have much less experience and knowledge than them.

Hopefully the new changes that TL is making will ease this burden from top players and minds, but until then we have to wade through flames and trolls to find the gems in the rough of each strategy post.

Also, in no way do I consider myself the end-all for knowledge in any area. I don't want to insight rage at myself with this post, instead I wanted to start a discussion, should have put [D] around the title...

AND yes I LIKE capital LETTERS. It ISN'T an INSULT to the READER, I JUST do IT out of HABIT. Sorry ^.^
Got that.
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