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Liquid_Adun
Canada205 Posts
It's sad but true, Blizzard listens to QQ and WILL change the game to cater to QQs even if it means sacrificing balance. Sometimes they try to do both, but that obviously isn't optimal. It's even worse in WoW, as QQ = King. Yea, its true, they do have to listen to some QQ, now that they are partners with acivision one their main interests is selling the next expansion. You have to give the customers what they want. As unfortunate as it is, since the majority of the population are QQers. | ||
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Tyree
1508 Posts
What Tyler was talking about was AFTER all the patches the community decided, majority of it anyway, that the game was as balanced as it could possibly be. But before all that was a era similar to the era today. If you honestly think that in SC and BW early days people didnt complain then you were never there to begin with. Valid complaints are worth it, since they will shape the game for the better, having to go through countless badly worded complaints and balance suggestions is worth it if we can get a game that is as balanced and fun as BW is in a couple of years. If everyone sits on their hands, nothing will get done, they do listen to feedback, they have done so since Diablo 1. | ||
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takingbackoj
United States684 Posts
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:08 Tyree wrote: How then, did Brood War get 10+ plus patches and achieved good balance? What Tyler was talking about was AFTER all the patches the community decided, majority of it anyway, that the game was as balanced as it could possibly be. But before all that was a era similar to the era today. If you honestly think that in SC and BW early days people didnt complain then you were never there to begin with. Valid complaints are worth it, since they will shape the game for the better, having to go through countless badly worded complaints and balance suggestions is worth it if we can get a game that is as balanced and fun as BW is in a couple of years. If everyone sits on their hands, nothing will get done, they do listen to feedback, they have done so since Diablo 1. Yeah except in BW there was legitimate proof of imbalances. You would have people massing Wraiths Scouts early on dominating people due to their ridiculous air to ground damage, or Z in early SC1 days with their bajillion larvae that spawned at lightning speeds, just running over everyone. And it's not like this went on just for a few weeks, Blizzard allowed stuff like this to run on for months before they would even do anything. In SC2, people are complaining about shit before other top level players are given a chance to figure out how to beat it. Also, people (in the next example, Z players) complained about stuff that makes no sense to complain about, like Helions and Reapers (after the first nerf), absolutely screwing T for a long time till they all said "fuck this" and 2 rax SCV rushed Z every game. I do believe that Blizzard should be active in the balancing of the game since the metagame in SC2 is developing at a much faster pace than SC1, but people need to stop jumping the gun sometimes. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:08 Tyree wrote: How then, did Brood War get 10+ plus patches and achieved good balance? What Tyler was talking about was AFTER all the patches the community decided, majority of it anyway, that the game was as balanced as it could possibly be. But before all that was a era similar to the era today. If you honestly think that in SC and BW early days people didnt complain then you were never there to begin with. Valid complaints are worth it, since they will shape the game for the better, having to go through countless badly worded complaints and balance suggestions is worth it if we can get a game that is as balanced and fun as BW is in a couple of years. If everyone sits on their hands, nothing will get done, they do listen to feedback, they have done so since Diablo 1. I think if we asked Tyler which era had more NPW he would say today. Don't forget that Blizzard isn't a tiny dev company anymore, they have shittons of cash, and much more experience making these kinds of games. SC2 was way more balanced than SC1 on release. Again, it isn't them listening to feedback that is bad, IT IS THE FEEDBACK. When nothing but poop and garbage is what they hear, that is what they make. Balance threads turn into flame wars and troll dens so fast its laughable. I'd love to see a Blizzard employee wade through 100 pages of flames and trolls to find one good post about what should actually be done with a unit/MU. Valid complaints are 100% the best thing we can do. Find a VALID complaint. And yes, I didn't use forums when SC1 first came out, I was too young to really be hardcore about it (10 years old) so I don't know how heavy the QQ was. But using my knowledge now, I can bet it wasn't as bad. There simply wasn't the volume of expectation at the time. Blizzard's name really means quality gaming now. Players want the best from day 1 from Blizzard. Since they have to be so concerned with keeping a positive public image, they have to listen to garbage and trolls to keep them playing and paying (in WoW's case). This isn't a complaint against Blizzard, or TeamLiquid, its a complaint against the community. Stop trollings, stop being stupid and most of all, STOP acting like you know everything. All of a sudden you will actually enjoy the game that you spent $60 and tons of your time playing. As I have said, I don't make this game, I don't pretend to, and I don't pretend to be the one-stop knowledge shop. Instead I come as a community member begging everyone else to get their act together before we all go down on a burning ship. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:08 Liquid_Adun wrote: Yea, its true, they do have to listen to some QQ, now that they are partners with acivision one their main interests is selling the next expansion. You have to give the customers what they want. As unfortunate as it is, since the majority of the population are QQers. You ppl are delusional. Stop saying they changed wow cause of qq. If they actually did that no1 would even play it anymore cause it would be completly ruined. Do you honestly think blizzard can't think for themselves? | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:17 Assirra wrote: You ppl are delusional. Stop saying they changed wow cause of qq. If they actually did that no1 would even play it anymore cause it would be completly ruined. Do you honestly think blizzard can't think for themselves? Did you play during Burning Crusade? Badge gear and wellfare epics are a direct result of community NPW. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:04 jstar wrote: "Maka's input" was merely an excuse used to cover the truth. They changed void rays because of mass QQ. Source? | ||
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Millitron
United States2611 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:17 Assirra wrote: You ppl are delusional. Stop saying they changed wow cause of qq. If they actually did that no1 would even play it anymore cause it would be completly ruined. Do you honestly think blizzard can't think for themselves? Yes. The patch the roach range buff came in confirmed this for me. Reapers got nerfed all to hell, all rax first builds were rendered null and void, and they buffed an already fairly strong unit (Roach), because a few zergs whined loud enough. | ||
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Leviance
Germany4079 Posts
So you QQ about QQers, telling them to shut up and just learn to play the game as it is presented to us, then in the same post you QQ about the blizzard maps and how they fuck up the game and every single one is horrible - WTF!? if you follow YOUR VERY OWN advice don't QQ about the maps, LEARN TO PLAY ON THESE MAPS, as this is your whole point. so hypocritical. QQing will always be, most of the time it will be pointless, sometimes it will help to balance the game. The ones that are helping to improve the game are worth the million stupid ones which aren't taken into real consideration anyway. Why do you even pay attention to the QQing? just play the game and don't care if it upsets you so much. If you just play the game as you stated you won't read any QQing. You contradict yourself so bad with the map bitching that you cannot be taken seriously. Your post is as useless as whining about slow Hydralisks, maybe even more useless. | ||
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Mintastic
United States166 Posts
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Squirrel
United States1102 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:21 Millitron wrote: Yes. The patch the roach range buff came in confirmed this for me. Reapers got nerfed all to hell, all rax first builds were rendered null and void, and they buffed an already fairly strong unit (Roach), because a few zergs whined loud enough. Because there is absolutely no chance that they made the changes the felt were good, or needed, based on anything but QQ. | ||
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Tyree
1508 Posts
When the Rocket Launcher in Quake 1 was insanely overpowered, then made really weak in Quake 2. The same happened in Starcraft, but since so few actually were on forums back then few remember it, they just like to pretend that Brood War came out and Blizzard just magically balanced it with no input from very good players. I am sure "QQ" was made popular on WoW or 4chan, but actually whining about balance in games has been here way before WoW ever got released. For some reason people just want to pretend that everything was rosy before but now, since that demon hell spawn game called World of Warcraft came out, every gamer turned into a blabbering idiot. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:21 Millitron wrote: Yes. The patch the roach range buff came in confirmed this for me. Reapers got nerfed all to hell, all rax first builds were rendered null and void, and they buffed an already fairly strong unit (Roach), because a few zergs whined loud enough. Hehehe this is amusing and is as much of the reason why there's so much balance whine. When people make posts like this they're essentially trolling to get people to start arguing balance. What's worse is they often don't realize it so aren't even capable of holding themselves back. So long as you ignore reality, data, and player opinions you too can make a post to incite balance whine/'discussion'! | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
What I don't like at all, however, is that Blizzard overnerfs all the time and doesn't mind having useless units or abilities. Reapers are now pretty much useless (except for the occasional scout), neural parasite is also not worth it anymore, hunter-seeker missile is also not worth it, fungal was about to be destroyed though thankfully was not, ultras and archons are still so-so. I really don't understand why they won't try to fix these potentially very cool (from the spectator's point of view) things. | ||
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lagbzz
Poland171 Posts
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:21 Millitron wrote: Yes. The patch the roach range buff came in confirmed this for me. Reapers got nerfed all to hell, all rax first builds were rendered null and void, and they buffed an already fairly strong unit (Roach), because a few zergs whined loud enough. First off, roaches weren't "fairly strong" by any means. They were easily one of the worst 2 supply units in the game. 2nd of all, nobody was asking for a range buff. The community in general was thrown off by their +1 range change and a lot of people thought it wouldn't do a whole lot for the unit or the race. The actual changes implemented are a great testimate to Blizzard not giving in to the bitching. Wrong example to use. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:29 Jermstuddog wrote: First off, roaches weren't "fairly strong" by any means. They were easily one of the worst 2 supply units in the game. 2nd of all, nobody was asking for a range buff. The community in general was thrown off by their +1 range change and a lot of people thought it wouldn't do a whole lotb for the unit bor the race. The actual changes implemented are a great testimate to Blizzard not giving in to the bitching. Wrong example to use. Reapers were also changed past the build time nerf as a concession to how broken they were in team games and not for their role in ZvT. | ||
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Krigwin
1130 Posts
So what the OP really is is a long-winded rant about how "whining", and apparently no distinction is made by the OP between said whining and constructive criticism, "ruins" games. Spattered throughout this drivel is also a load of ALL CAPS gripes and baseless comparisons to other games, most notably WoW, which isn't even remotely a competitive game on the level of SC2. I see that the OP lists such distinguished hallmarks of the esports community like Mario Kart and Super Smash Bros amongst his portfolio of competitive experience, that might explain where these bizarre comparisons are coming from. Now, to be fair, hidden in that waffle is some good stuff about player mentality and how self-improvement is really a better attitude than blaming the game, but the way the OP is phrased it gives off this viewpoint that any and all criticism, however valid, of the game is detrimental to the game and the community. This is so far away from the truth I scarcely know where to begin. Valid criticisms help the game evolve into a more stable and competitive state. I'm pretty sure I speak for more than myself when I say that no one's really interested in watching marine-SCV all-ins for 12 more years. The problem arises when distinguishing the valid criticisms from the baseless whining and outright flaming and stupidity. So really the thread should be called "Why Stupidity Ruins Games". Which could then be called "Why Stupidity is Bad". And that's a topic so obvious it hardly requires a 11+ paragraph OP and a whole thread. Just make a thread saying stupid posts are not allowed. Oh wait, we already have that. So what was the point of this thread again? | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
I've said "What the hell is Blizzard doing, why are they making these significant changes instead of doing minor tweaks?" When people say "nerf mules" what do you think that means OP? Does that mean "change them entirely so they perform a different role" or does it mean "tweak them so that certain strategies aren't so easy and there is more consideration required". To me, it means the latter. A "mule nerf" would be something like... start the CC on 0 energy. Make the OC upgrade require gas (even 25 or 50 gas), make it cost more minerals, make it require an ebay, make a mule cost 60 or 75 energy. Many small changes that don't change the role of the mule, or how it works, but they do impact things like a terrans ability to all in with ALL his SCVs while still producing marines back at home, thus slightly nerfing the marine/SCV all-in while not breaking it or breaking mules. To buff stalkers, give them an extra damage bonus vs armoured (+1 extra maybe), just tiny changes. Not things like "knock 10 seconds off phoenix build time and fuck up fungal growth" (the latter obviously got reverted). Or: nerf bunkers, nerf reaper build time and then nerf the reaper ability to get speed so they become entirely useless and only used once in 100 games, and then only one for scouting. Just because Blizzard overreact doesn't mean people shouldn't whine, even if they say something needs "fixing", it can be as simple as a minor tweak. No one is asking for the entire function of a unit to be changed (which Blizz did with the reaper). Also the maps: many/most of them are terrible, which leads me on to... Blizzard designed and balanced the game and maps based around internal work and the beta test. Things have moved on since theyn. Maybe there should be some major changes to certain things in light of the changes in the way the game is played. Blizzard may have had ideas about what they wanted units to do, but that doesn't mean that units are necessarily being used in that way. This means the maps are often horribly broken because they simply weren't designed around November/December SC2 play, they were designed around maybe June SC2 play or even earlier in the beta/alpha. They need 'patching' too, and are part of the balance problem. | ||
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