EPTThe OP admits the game isn't balanced and that more patching is needed, his point is that you should STFU about it. No one is saying don't give feedback to blizzard, no one is saying don't analyze the game, the OP's point is stop the random whining because it's really degrading the community.
Why Nerfs, Patches and Whining Ruin Games - Page 6
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
The OP admits the game isn't balanced and that more patching is needed, his point is that you should STFU about it. No one is saying don't give feedback to blizzard, no one is saying don't analyze the game, the OP's point is stop the random whining because it's really degrading the community. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 17 2010 04:01 funk100 wrote: like the thread alot, BUUUUUUUT i think that there should still be threads and ideas on ways to change SC2 for the better in terms of design, playability and watchability because one of them, maybe, just might strike gold Then post it on the Blizzard forums which are the forums that Blizzard employees read who in the end decide on how to change a Blizzard game. Posting it on TL is a waste of time. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
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Liquid_Adun
Canada205 Posts
Posting it on TL is a waste of time. Posting on TL is never a waste of time. Have a nice day, Adun  | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
On December 17 2010 04:22 TheToast wrote: This thread is epic, I couldn't agree with it more. Not to say there haven't been a few good balance threads on TL from well-known players intelligently discussing game aspects, but the vast majority have been gold level and lower players complaining about whatever opponent strategy they just lost to 5 minutes before they made the thread. There are still several per day that the mods insta-close. The OP admits the game isn't balanced and that more patching is needed, his point is that you should STFU about it. No one is saying don't give feedback to blizzard, no one is saying don't analyze the game, the OP's point is stop the random whining because it's really degrading the community. Thanks for actually reading the whole post. Posting on TL is never a waste of time. <3<3<3<3<3 | ||
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gg all-in
United States7 Posts
"Hello sir I am looking for some cheese" "Why yes lol you can find that in our SC2 aisle" PVP - see who can 4gate the fastest ZvT - Lololol!! I just think I will make a shitload of banelings and hope for the best. WHy should I work on my micro when I can just suicide a bunch of blings all day TvT - just boring as shit. turtle in with tanks + turrets and see who can out macro each other. the person who actually plays aggressively gets shit on. it should be the other way around. I like playing aggressively and theres nothing more frustrating than playing someone whos turtling in and trying to make their base look like they work for the city of Manhattan civic engineering TvP: this is actually kind of fun but seriously the person who tries to go in with a strategic mindset, going for a fun back-and-forth game is usually the one who gg's I still love this game but its so annoying sometimes. Its like day9 taught everyone too well | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On December 17 2010 02:21 Logican wrote: 3. NPW does not break the game. It makes the game more popular in a sense. Every game has patches, every game has nerfs. Think SC1 and the many patches and nerfs happened through the 12 years. It is a challenge for the designers to make the game "balanced". However, the definition of balanced is not really a state where everyone is content. It is a state where the most number of players will be able to accept it. no its not. the game is balanced when its balanced. it has nothing to do with the opinion of most of the players. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 17 2010 01:51 Fa1nT wrote: Whole post is pointless. Blizzard does NOT listen to crying. They listen for FEEDBACK on things that many people consider OP, then put extensive testing to those things. They only get changed if Blizzard themselves deem it necessary, not because people complained. Take Marauders. They were bitched about since beta, and still are. They are not getting changed though because terran need them vs protoss ground or roach based armies. lol nice joke. You realized the 3 gate VR all in was nerfed purely on the whim of the complaints of 3 players before it ever saw tournament play right? Not many T's even attempted to figure out how to counter it, and before anyone could even begin to figure out anything, that one particular strat (which is utterly easy to see coming might I add) was nerfed into the ground. | ||
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MicroJFox
United States38 Posts
On December 17 2010 01:40 Millitron wrote: Great OP. I've pointed out similar ideas in other threads, but never really wrote up a whole thing this size. You don't see chess grandmasters saying "Knight is OP, Blizz better nerf it, and holyshit better buff bishops" Edit: spoiler'd the quote cause its huge. You're comparing a game where both sides have the same pieces and abilities to a game with 3 distinct sets of pieces and abilities. This argument would only be valid in the cases where people complain about Z being too strong vs. Z, T being too strong vs. T, or P being too strong vs. P. People have said that these matchups can be boring, but I don't believe any race is stronger than itself. To the OP - Toyota made cars with brakes that didn't work. Microsoft made ubiquitous software that had huge security flaws. Yes, many people got scared and complained about these - even those with no knowledge of cars or software. Sometimes large, reputable companies make mistakes that need to be fixed. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On December 17 2010 04:28 Liquid_Adun wrote: Posting on TL is never a waste of time. Have a nice day, Adun No, Plexa is right. People keep posting poop like This from the other day on TL. Threads like this have no point, no one from Blizzard are going to see these threads and spontaneously decide to radically change the game, they are not going to provide the basis for a suddenly balanced game, they are not ideas that are going to suddenly garner mass appeal, they are simply a waste of electrons. And there are dozens of worse threads in the strategy section. This kind of nonsense really does degrade the community. It encumbers an environment of intelligent well though out discussion and forces TLer's to sift through dozens of poor threads to find good ones. | ||
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
also like you said (OP) the maps are really really really bad and contribute massively to frustration. one thing to add. whining on forums from bad players is pointless..if you are under 2900 pts and havent played in tournaments you have no idea about how balanced teh game actually is... there should be some place for good solid players to voice their concerns.. but that is another discussion  that place used to be these boards I bealive. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 17 2010 04:30 gg all-in wrote: Seriously grocery stores should just start calling their dairy aisles the Starcraft 2 section. "Hello sir I am looking for some cheese" "Why yes lol you can find that in our SC2 aisle" PVP - see who can 4gate the fastest ZvT - Lololol!! I just think I will make a shitload of banelings and hope for the best. WHy should I work on my micro when I can just suicide a bunch of blings all day TvT - just boring as shit. turtle in with tanks + turrets and see who can out macro each other. the person who actually plays aggressively gets shit on. it should be the other way around. I like playing aggressively and theres nothing more frustrating than playing someone whos turtling in and trying to make their base look like they work for the city of Manhattan civic engineering TvP: this is actually kind of fun but seriously the person who tries to go in with a strategic mindset, going for a fun back-and-forth game is usually the one who gg's I still love this game but its so annoying sometimes. Its like day9 taught everyone too well Thanks for showing a good example of what the OP is talking about. Learn to play better and SC2 is not at all like you describe. | ||
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MoreFaSho
United States1427 Posts
On December 17 2010 04:41 superstartran wrote: lol nice joke. You realized the 3 gate VR all in was nerfed purely on the whim of the complaints of 3 players before it ever saw tournament play right? Not many T's even attempted to figure out how to counter it, and before anyone could even begin to figure out anything, that one particular strat (which is utterly easy to see coming might I add) was nerfed into the ground. I actually MOSTLY agree with the OP, but this is blatantly inaccurate. It may have been a few players, but according to David Kim it was from ACTUAL REPLAYS and the player was MakaPrime. Now I know some people might look down upon this, but unlike 99% of qq and whining, he provided a replay with the timing attack presumably showing that even with scouting it couldn't be reasonably countered. Now I haven't seen this replay so I can't know for sure, but if you can get a charged voidray into a T base before he has stim AND have units to support it and defend against timing pushes it MIGHT be OP, but this is never the level of discussion of people on forums. | ||
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megagoten
318 Posts
i was so wrong, the honeymoon didn't last. | ||
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Chronald
United States619 Posts
On December 17 2010 04:44 MicroJFox wrote: You're comparing a game where both sides have the same pieces and abilities to a game with 3 distinct sets of pieces and abilities. This argument would only be valid in the cases where people complain about Z being too strong vs. Z, T being too strong vs. T, or P being too strong vs. P. People have said that these matchups can be boring, but I don't believe any race is stronger than itself. To the OP - Toyota made cars with brakes that didn't work. Microsoft made ubiquitous software that had huge security flaws. Yes, many people got scared and complained about these - even those with no knowledge of cars or software. Sometimes large, reputable companies make mistakes that need to be fixed. The brake pads were a manufacturing mistake, not design I believe. Windows (which is what I assume you are referring to) is a clear example design based issues. Microsoft treats their customers differently that Blizzard. If you have an issue with Windows, you can call Microsoft say "Hey my (_____) isn't working and you have to fix it". However this is because there is little user innovation with this product. The innovation comes from developers who create static applications that modularly extend the operating system. With Starcraft 2 you can't call Blizzard and be like, "My 1 gate FE versus Terran isn't working, fix it" the person on the phone will tell you to get better, or read their forums or something. (I might try this to see what happens). Yet players refuse to accept that the issues that Blizzard has to fix requires massive amounts of raw data, months of planning and testing, and feedback. Feeback is the focus of this post. The feedback we are giving Blizzard is terrible, horrible, and atrocious. If we want this game to be the best, we have to help Blizzard make it that way, not expect them to do it because we complain about it. Attitude is what determines outcomes. If you want SC2 to be full of whiny, annoying kids like Halo or WoW continue to complain and NPW. If you want SC2 to be full of awesome, smart, competitive nerds, then shape up and have something important to say, or don't say anything. | ||
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bowsting
United States20 Posts
On December 17 2010 04:44 MicroJFox wrote: You're comparing a game where both sides have the same pieces and abilities to a game with 3 distinct sets of pieces and abilities. This argument would only be valid in the cases where people complain about Z being too strong vs. Z, T being too strong vs. T, or P being too strong vs. P. People have said that these matchups can be boring, but I don't believe any race is stronger than itself. To the OP - Toyota made cars with brakes that didn't work. Microsoft made ubiquitous software that had huge security flaws. Yes, many people got scared and complained about these - even those with no knowledge of cars or software. Sometimes large, reputable companies make mistakes that need to be fixed. I am very amused by the large amount of people who just ignore the points made in the OP. it's stated very clearly thy yes thee are issues and that there is some fixing to be done. The issue is not the balancing though but the unhelpful and harmful nature of whining about how certain matchups or units are difficult. The metagame changes rapidly and instead of claiming that TvT isn't interesting, perhaps spend the time testing new strategies that could change the matchup for the better... It's not about the game being balanced/unbalanced but instead about whining that is not what the sc community use to be about. Let's make a change and use our minds instead of our knee jerk reactions. | ||
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Farkinator
United States283 Posts
EDIT: Damn read the first page. They've broken through!!! | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
On December 17 2010 04:48 MoreFasho wrote: I actually MOSTLY agree with the OP, but this is blatantly inaccurate. It may have been a few players, but according to David Kim it was from ACTUAL REPLAYS and the player was MakaPrime. Now I know some people might look down upon this, but unlike 99% of qq and whining, he provided a replay with the timing attack presumably showing that even with scouting it couldn't be reasonably countered. Now I haven't seen this replay so I can't know for sure, but if you can get a charged voidray into a T base before he has stim AND have units to support it and defend against timing pushes it MIGHT be OP, but this is never the level of discussion of people on forums. The 3 gate VR all in Maka was talking about was easily scouted by the fact that each and every T now aday always scans on the 2nd 50 energy or they float a fac into/near the P base to see if he did an early Robo. No early Robo + Only 1/2 Gates means some kind of a tech cheese, which is 99.9% of the time is a Stargate cheese. This is also easily scouted by any early poke that will see that you HAVE NO SENTRY. It was changed on the whim of Maka's input alone, with absolutely no testing by any other players. No one even attempted this kind of bs in a tournament level play. In fact, VRs at the time were considered so bad vs T that they were considered the easiest strat to beat for T. And yet VRs still get nerfed because ONE player, no matter how fucking good he is or who is name is, submitted some replays and said "this shit is OP, fix it". This is a perfect example of what the OP is talking about. Rather then allowing the game to take its course and see if people can counter it, Blizzard listens because its Maka, then nerfs that shit immediately (in part also because VRs were causing trouble in team games also). | ||
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jstar
Canada568 Posts
It's sad but true, Blizzard listens to QQ and WILL change the game to cater to QQs even if it means sacrificing balance. Sometimes they try to do both, but that obviously isn't optimal. It's even worse in WoW, as QQ = King. Good job whining scrubs, you win. | ||
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jstar
Canada568 Posts
On December 17 2010 05:01 superstartran wrote: The 3 gate VR all in Maka was talking about was easily scouted by the fact that each and every T now aday always scans on the 2nd 50 energy or they float a fac into/near the P base to see if he did an early Robo. No early Robo + Only 1/2 Gates means some kind of a tech cheese, which is 99.9% of the time is a Stargate cheese. This is also easily scouted by any early poke that will see that you HAVE NO SENTRY. It was changed on the whim of Maka's input alone, with absolutely no testing by any other players. No one even attempted this kind of bs in a tournament level play. In fact, VRs at the time were considered so bad vs T that they were considered the easiest strat to beat for T. And yet VRs still get nerfed because ONE player, no matter how fucking good he is or who is name is, submitted some replays and said "this shit is OP, fix it". "Maka's input" was merely an excuse used to cover the truth. They changed void rays because of mass QQ. | ||
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