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On December 17 2010 01:40 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On December 17 2010 01:19 Chronald wrote:I posted this on the Battle.net Forums and wanted to share with you guys to see what you think. OP : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1536476340PS: The part about people who read "these forums" is talking about b.net forums obviously. Greetings, I have never been one to post on these forums, yet I do lurk here quite often. This post is a culmination of many things that I have been upset about and angry with since the release of Starcraft 2. Namely, nerfs, patches, and whining (NPW from here on out). First I want to preamble with a little bit about myself. I have been gaming since the SNES, and have been competitive at games like Super Smash Brothers, Mario Kart (yes there are tournaments), Counter Strike, WoW, and Starcraft. Clearly the console games don't get patched like PC games, so they don't really factor into this discussion. I want to bring to the reader's attention the horrible side-effects of NPW. NPW drastically dumbs down games. When players and forum posters complain about "oh MULEs are OP" or "Hydras are UP" it only bottlenecks the player's thinking. If you are an eSports fan than you know who SlayerSBoxeR is. BoxeR isn't famous for winning all of his championships. He is famous for HOW he did it. BoxeR took the struggling Terran race of the early 2000s and rocketed the Terran to the best race, hands down. This didn't happen because he whined to Blizzard for some kind of buff, it isn't because he started playing right after some major patch. It is because he ACCEPTED THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS. That's right, he didn't complain about imbalance, he didn't post stupid ass thread on teamliquid or battle.net. Instead he MADE IT WORK. He FOUND A WAY TO WIN. These are the major mental steps that I want to highlight. Players that bottlenecks themselves with NPW do nothing beneficial for themselves. In fact I would go as far to say that they put a timer on their ability to play. Players who fall victim to NPW don't want to play until the patch comes out, don't want to practice "some stupid UP race". Would SlayerSBoxeR do that? Hell no. Players and fans need to pull their heads out of their own asses, and trust the Blizzard knows what they are doing. PLUS, if any of these complainers were ACTUALLY GOOD, they would know that the true imbalance in this game right now is Blizzard's shitty ass maps (yes every single map they have made, sucks, hard, except maaaaybe Shakuras, but even then..). What I am trying to display is how community effort to get games patched or aspects nerfed never satisfies anyone. Only the people who are positively affected by the change are happy, and in Starcraft that is less than 30%, unless you play Terran. Basically, by nerfing the game once, Blizzard is forced to nerf it again. Look at what has happened to WoW. When WoW came out it was a hardcore, awesome ass MMORPG, kicked EQ2 and DaoC in the ass. Clearly there were some balance issues in vanilla WoW (rogues could backstab with swords in the early days) so they HAD to patch those to make sure people still played. But after years of player's NPW-ing the game is completely different and boring. Raids don't present the mental challenge they used to, the game is completely based on numbers not skill. Skill does show up in PvP, and I think that is why Blizzard is pushing PvP so much hard these days. However, I would go so far as to say that without as much NPW from the community, WoW would still be the fucking awesome, 40man raiding, world PvP-ing behemoth that is was. (Disclaimer: I have played WoW on and off from release. I have had each class at max level, either 60/70/80. I refuse to play cataclysm due to RL, and lack of interest.) But now we look at RTS games. The difference with an RTS game is that NPW does NOTHING TO MAKE THEM BETTER. Starcraft 2 is a 90% balanced game imo, +/- 5%, and this means that the patches that need to happen are small, and not paradigm shifting. So many posters ask for "MULE nerfs" or "Fast Hydras" or whatever the fuck, and this is stuuuuupid. Completely changing the role of a unit would knock the carefully placed balances off their rockers. This game has been in the making for TEN+ FUCKING YEARS. I think Blizzard knows what role they want units to fill. The driving theme of this post is to encourage members of the community to not post about what they want Blizzard to change, or how Blizzard has fucked up. I want to see a community like Brood War's, where players devise new strategies with the pieces they are given. I don't remember who said it, Nony I think, on the State of the Game Podcast, Starcraft 2 is a intelligence-limited game. Players have to find out what their opponents are doing. THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT. Blizzard shouldn't have to hold your hand, and say, "Look your opponent is making hydras, this means that you should build collosus." Frankly, Blizzard is too nice to most of the posters here. I feel like these are complain-boards, where under-skilled players go to NPW about the game. If you hit a plateau in your play, it isn't Blizzard's job to help you through it, it is yours. When you buy a chess set, the toy store doesn't come to your house every day to play with you, you have to practice on your own. Maybe people who bought SC2 didn't realize that they would actually have to be accountable for their skill. I think a lot of new-age WoW players who are used to well-fare epics and stupid badge gear have bought SC2 thinking that they can be the best without ever thinking about what the game is. SC2 isn't your normal online game, its competitive, its fast, its completely on you. Losing in SC2 is much worse than dying in WoW or dying in CS, because death there doesn't lose you the entire game. Maybe in certain situations, but most of the time it doesn't. You have a team to rely on, resurrections to work with. SC2 doesn't have that, if you fuck up, you fucked up, that's it. Perhaps I am ranting, perhaps I'm not. But I think that people are completely un-aware of what they are doing the community. This game will never last if people only focus on what is bad. There are so many fucking awesome things about SC2 compared to BW. Multiple Building Select O_O I can't wait to see Jaedong or Flash play SC2 so they don't have to use 90% of their godly APM for macro. Same with unit selections. People, grow up and stop whining. Blizzard has made a game that should, and will ( I feel ), be the best PC game of all time. By whining and complaining for Blizzard to nerf or patch the game you take away from the value of the game. You make it seem that Blizzard hasn't done anything right, and that the game is bad. THIS GAME IS NOT BAD PERIOD. Blizzard - IMO you should ban everyone who complains for a nerf or patch unless you ask them. NPW makes games not fun, it makes it not fun to be a part of the community that drives the game. And sadly, it is this community that eSports relies upon. If you want to see eSports go under the bus, then please keep posting stupid NPW threads, but don't say I didn't warn you when you get flamed into the ground. If you really want to be the best, and enjoy playing SC2, use your brain, think, be creative, and think outside the box. Maybe you will be the one to invent the new Reaver Drop or the new Vulture micro. Who knows, the game is there waiting for us to unlock it's mysteries, but instead we want them explicitly thrown in our face. Don't do this, a fine game is like a fine wine, there are so many layers and intricacies that drinking it once simply won't do. You have to peel away the layers of flavor and musk in order to find the true beauty of the wine. Wine, like Starcraft, is a fickle lover, she does not reveal her secrets to anyone, you must deem yourself worthy of understanding her secrets, but once you do, no one can stop you. To summarize, STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING, STOP FUCKING WHINING, AND PLAY THE FUCKING GAME. Great OP. I've pointed out similar ideas in other threads, but never really wrote up a whole thing this size. You don't see chess grandmasters saying "Knight is OP, Blizz better nerf it, and holyshit better buff bishops" Edit: spoiler'd the quote cause its huge.
Lol what a terrible example. Both players in chess have access to the exact same pieces, how would saying "knight OP" make any sense?
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I remember when starcraft used to be about someone winning, checking reps and fixing their mistakes.
Everyone just yells nerf and buff all the time, it's funny how not a lot of people want to create new STRATEGIES, in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game.
(capitalized for emphasis)
If something is so game breaking no one can win against it or defend it without some unreal conditions, then it warrants patching and inspection. Otherwise it's all moot.
Needless to say this whole post is my opinion.
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dude, why are you so angry? really what does it effect you if people complain about balance or not? if you took your own advice and played the freaking game then you wouldn't even notice the NPW and you would be free. furthermore if you take your point about just play the game no matter what the balance state is just like boxer did then again, why do you care if blizz patches or not - make do with what there is. you're complaining that the patches might do to sc2 what it did to wow and take skill out of the game? well i don't play low-skill games like wow but i'm just gonna say your analysis here is shallow and lacking evidence or examples so i'm just dismissing it, even if this game were perfectly balanced with equivalent exacting races there would still be skill required because macro is hard and micro is harder.
a good balance situation improves the legitimacy of e-sports and keeps people playing the game. imbalance exists, it fundamentally has to with asymmetrical races, but hopefully it can be minimized so that all the races are competitive at the highest levels and nobody feels like they're wasting their time pouring hours into an underpowered race wanting to be a good player.
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On December 17 2010 01:59 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:40 Millitron wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 17 2010 01:19 Chronald wrote:I posted this on the Battle.net Forums and wanted to share with you guys to see what you think. OP : http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1536476340PS: The part about people who read "these forums" is talking about b.net forums obviously. Greetings, I have never been one to post on these forums, yet I do lurk here quite often. This post is a culmination of many things that I have been upset about and angry with since the release of Starcraft 2. Namely, nerfs, patches, and whining (NPW from here on out). First I want to preamble with a little bit about myself. I have been gaming since the SNES, and have been competitive at games like Super Smash Brothers, Mario Kart (yes there are tournaments), Counter Strike, WoW, and Starcraft. Clearly the console games don't get patched like PC games, so they don't really factor into this discussion. I want to bring to the reader's attention the horrible side-effects of NPW. NPW drastically dumbs down games. When players and forum posters complain about "oh MULEs are OP" or "Hydras are UP" it only bottlenecks the player's thinking. If you are an eSports fan than you know who SlayerSBoxeR is. BoxeR isn't famous for winning all of his championships. He is famous for HOW he did it. BoxeR took the struggling Terran race of the early 2000s and rocketed the Terran to the best race, hands down. This didn't happen because he whined to Blizzard for some kind of buff, it isn't because he started playing right after some major patch. It is because he ACCEPTED THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS. That's right, he didn't complain about imbalance, he didn't post stupid ass thread on teamliquid or battle.net. Instead he MADE IT WORK. He FOUND A WAY TO WIN. These are the major mental steps that I want to highlight. Players that bottlenecks themselves with NPW do nothing beneficial for themselves. In fact I would go as far to say that they put a timer on their ability to play. Players who fall victim to NPW don't want to play until the patch comes out, don't want to practice "some stupid UP race". Would SlayerSBoxeR do that? Hell no. Players and fans need to pull their heads out of their own asses, and trust the Blizzard knows what they are doing. PLUS, if any of these complainers were ACTUALLY GOOD, they would know that the true imbalance in this game right now is Blizzard's shitty ass maps (yes every single map they have made, sucks, hard, except maaaaybe Shakuras, but even then..). What I am trying to display is how community effort to get games patched or aspects nerfed never satisfies anyone. Only the people who are positively affected by the change are happy, and in Starcraft that is less than 30%, unless you play Terran. Basically, by nerfing the game once, Blizzard is forced to nerf it again. Look at what has happened to WoW. When WoW came out it was a hardcore, awesome ass MMORPG, kicked EQ2 and DaoC in the ass. Clearly there were some balance issues in vanilla WoW (rogues could backstab with swords in the early days) so they HAD to patch those to make sure people still played. But after years of player's NPW-ing the game is completely different and boring. Raids don't present the mental challenge they used to, the game is completely based on numbers not skill. Skill does show up in PvP, and I think that is why Blizzard is pushing PvP so much hard these days. However, I would go so far as to say that without as much NPW from the community, WoW would still be the fucking awesome, 40man raiding, world PvP-ing behemoth that is was. (Disclaimer: I have played WoW on and off from release. I have had each class at max level, either 60/70/80. I refuse to play cataclysm due to RL, and lack of interest.) But now we look at RTS games. The difference with an RTS game is that NPW does NOTHING TO MAKE THEM BETTER. Starcraft 2 is a 90% balanced game imo, +/- 5%, and this means that the patches that need to happen are small, and not paradigm shifting. So many posters ask for "MULE nerfs" or "Fast Hydras" or whatever the fuck, and this is stuuuuupid. Completely changing the role of a unit would knock the carefully placed balances off their rockers. This game has been in the making for TEN+ FUCKING YEARS. I think Blizzard knows what role they want units to fill. The driving theme of this post is to encourage members of the community to not post about what they want Blizzard to change, or how Blizzard has fucked up. I want to see a community like Brood War's, where players devise new strategies with the pieces they are given. I don't remember who said it, Nony I think, on the State of the Game Podcast, Starcraft 2 is a intelligence-limited game. Players have to find out what their opponents are doing. THAT IS THE FUCKING POINT. Blizzard shouldn't have to hold your hand, and say, "Look your opponent is making hydras, this means that you should build collosus." Frankly, Blizzard is too nice to most of the posters here. I feel like these are complain-boards, where under-skilled players go to NPW about the game. If you hit a plateau in your play, it isn't Blizzard's job to help you through it, it is yours. When you buy a chess set, the toy store doesn't come to your house every day to play with you, you have to practice on your own. Maybe people who bought SC2 didn't realize that they would actually have to be accountable for their skill. I think a lot of new-age WoW players who are used to well-fare epics and stupid badge gear have bought SC2 thinking that they can be the best without ever thinking about what the game is. SC2 isn't your normal online game, its competitive, its fast, its completely on you. Losing in SC2 is much worse than dying in WoW or dying in CS, because death there doesn't lose you the entire game. Maybe in certain situations, but most of the time it doesn't. You have a team to rely on, resurrections to work with. SC2 doesn't have that, if you fuck up, you fucked up, that's it. Perhaps I am ranting, perhaps I'm not. But I think that people are completely un-aware of what they are doing the community. This game will never last if people only focus on what is bad. There are so many fucking awesome things about SC2 compared to BW. Multiple Building Select O_O I can't wait to see Jaedong or Flash play SC2 so they don't have to use 90% of their godly APM for macro. Same with unit selections. People, grow up and stop whining. Blizzard has made a game that should, and will ( I feel ), be the best PC game of all time. By whining and complaining for Blizzard to nerf or patch the game you take away from the value of the game. You make it seem that Blizzard hasn't done anything right, and that the game is bad. THIS GAME IS NOT BAD PERIOD. Blizzard - IMO you should ban everyone who complains for a nerf or patch unless you ask them. NPW makes games not fun, it makes it not fun to be a part of the community that drives the game. And sadly, it is this community that eSports relies upon. If you want to see eSports go under the bus, then please keep posting stupid NPW threads, but don't say I didn't warn you when you get flamed into the ground. If you really want to be the best, and enjoy playing SC2, use your brain, think, be creative, and think outside the box. Maybe you will be the one to invent the new Reaver Drop or the new Vulture micro. Who knows, the game is there waiting for us to unlock it's mysteries, but instead we want them explicitly thrown in our face. Don't do this, a fine game is like a fine wine, there are so many layers and intricacies that drinking it once simply won't do. You have to peel away the layers of flavor and musk in order to find the true beauty of the wine. Wine, like Starcraft, is a fickle lover, she does not reveal her secrets to anyone, you must deem yourself worthy of understanding her secrets, but once you do, no one can stop you. To summarize, STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING, STOP FUCKING WHINING, AND PLAY THE FUCKING GAME. Great OP. I've pointed out similar ideas in other threads, but never really wrote up a whole thing this size. You don't see chess grandmasters saying "Knight is OP, Blizz better nerf it, and holyshit better buff bishops" Edit: spoiler'd the quote cause its huge. Lol what a terrible example. Both players in chess have access to the exact same pieces, how would saying "knight OP" make any sense?
its not proven yet if chess is balanced or not. but nobody cares.
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.............It's not whining or complaining. It's discussing how this units is bad or good. As zerg, you would know that hydra low hp + slow movement speed is not a good unit for your army but you still need to use this units for some situation. It's the truth that best zerg units are lings/roaches because they are cost effective.
.......Patches is fun because people will explore new way to play the game instead of playing the same freaking thing over and over again. I would give you an example right now that all high lvl terran use reapers vs zerg and destroy zerg in the beginning of the game. Or someone massing voidray in 2v2 with flex vain upgrade.
.......Personally I think the thread creator should grown up and let Blizz decide what is best for the community. The developer knows a lot more than any of you guys because they have data while you don't. Not only winning rate data but other facts as well.
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On December 17 2010 01:53 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 01:28 echO [W] wrote:On December 17 2010 01:23 navara wrote:
are you complaining ? ..
i think if we are it's because we care. I think theres a limit to the complaining that people should be doing, and from my perspective I think we have passed that limit by leaps and bounds. Liquid`Tyler spoke about this on the last State of the Game and I think iNcontroL also did too and what they pretty much said is what the OP here is saying. Back in Brood War people did not expect Blizzard to do anything so they essentially took it upon themselves to figure out how to overcome the supposed deficiencies or the "imbalances" That comment by Tyler really struck home with me. Back in the day people used to blame players first, rarely maps, and never imbalance. It was amazing to see someone hold the trophy and 99.99% of the credit being given to him. These days it just spawns discussion of imbalance and maps. It seems the player often comes third in importance. I don't like that 
This.
It is so freaking annoying to see Fruitdealer/Nestea and I'm sure the next GSL winner take the 87k only to that some random forum posters starting a "zerg/protoss/terran is op" thread, taking the credit away.
That also goes for the random matches with people posting "He would never win if the maps wouldnt be so imba" or something like that.
I want the days back when we credited a win to the player itself and blamed only him for losing. I know people have a different mentallity for starcraft 2 and that the game is quite new and probably will be patched in the future but can't we just play the game. Lets overcome the obstacles ourselves and not always go cry to blizzard.
Even now when I'm writing this I know that when MC or Rain wins the LR thread will go crazy like always with people arguing how the race that lost is UP and the other OP.
I just hope we will get it as time goes by :>
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Didnt Boxer say he would switch race if blizz nerfed terran more?
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On December 17 2010 02:10 skirmisheR wrote:
Didnt Boxer say he would switch race if blizz nerfed terran more?
I believe it was a joke, his way of saying "stop nerfing me!"
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I came into this thread intending to agree with the OP, but soon realized he was just an angry hypocrite. It is entirely possible that, in a game as complex as starcraft, there are, indeed, racial imbalances. It is also possible that said imbalanced might have workarounds that people just need to discover, whether it be simply using a different playstyle on a particular map, or learning to adapt.
I agree with what I thought the point of the thread was going to be: people who let their mindset devolve into "my race is UP" or "X race is OP" lose the ability to see their own mistakes and improve. Day9 has mentioned this numerous times.
Also, the OP made some terrible, terrible statements about the state of World of Warcraft. More people play and are happy with the current state of world of warcraft than ever before, and you're basically alone in a room of a handful of elitists like yourself if you think 40man vanilla raiding is better than raiding now.
The REAL lesson to take away from World of Warcraft balancing is that it's almost always better to buff something underpowered than to nerf something overpowered, as far as player psychology goes.
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Patches are like guns, and people are the problem.
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For example, Africa is known for having a large amount of natural resources and its countries potentially are going to become a major economic powerhouses in the world if they make use of their resources effectively. But as we all know, they can't do that, and we other countries can't hang around forever to wait for them to rise by themselves. That's why we help them, by providing technology, human resources, health care,..... When they rise, they might be too op, but that's the future, other countries will nerf them later.
It's the same in this game. Since the game is so new, a particular race can be potentially strong though people haven't discovered the potential yet. But how long will it take for us to discover that? 6 months? 5 years? We can't hang around a game that long just to wait for some random guys. Patching is just a process to balance the game short-term, no matter how short it might seem, so that people have interest to play the game.
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On December 17 2010 01:35 SubtleArt wrote:
OP obviously played Protoss when beta started and switched to Terran..
I like how this is the first thing stated. I think comments like this are pointless and only make the problem worse. It becomes a "us vs them" mentality and people don't want their race to be nerfed so they complain. The goal should be "Lets have a balanced game where player skill determines the outcome of the match" instead of "lets complain to buff my race so I can do better".
On December 17 2010 01:35 SubtleArt wrote:Are you really gonna be naive enough to assume a game this complex is going to be perfectly balanced barely months after its release? Maybe you don't realize it, but patches aren't random changes that a developer makes after hours of calculations and theory crafting. The game is balanced almost entirely on the feedback of its players.
SC2 was in development for a LONG time and is based largely off of SC1 so I think there has been a very long time in terms of balance development and game development. I think the game is 95% balanced and as do many pros (incontrol, nony, tyler come to mind)
On December 17 2010 01:35 SubtleArt wrote:ow, I agree that people who don't know what they're talking about are useless when they complain but I find it completely ridiculous when top players who dedicate their life to the game like Idra, Ret, Nony, and Artosis + Show Spoiler +one of those may or may not be a joke give their feedback and address things that need to be fixed or are overpowered, and then clueless masses get on them about how they're wrong and how they're horrible and how there must be absolutely nothing wrong with the game.
I agree with this, I think imbalances don't really reveal themselves until you get to the extreme higher levels of play where players are both playing at a very high level and the deciding factor in the outcome of the game becomes something other than player skill/decisions. Also many people watch replays and come to grossly incorrect assumptions such as the reason why they lost.
I don't think there is anything in the actual gameplay/units that is "broken" or game changing. The maps are the only thing I have a problem with (as the OP said)
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On December 17 2010 02:12 canikizu wrote:
For example, Africa is known for having a large amount of natural resources and its countries potentially are going to become a major economic powerhouses in the world if they make use of their resources effectively. But as we all know, they can't do that, and we other countries can't hang around forever to wait for them to rise by themselves. That's why we help them, by providing technology, human resources, health care,..... When they rise, they might be too op, but that's the future, other countries will nerf them later.
It's the same in this game. Since the game is so new, a particular race can be potentially strong though people haven't discovered the potential yet. But how long will it take for us to discover that? 6 months? 5 years? We can't hang around a game that long just to wait for some random guys. Patching is just a process to balance the game short-term, no matter how short it might seem, so that people have interest to play the game.
Have you never heard of Brood War? New strategies are still being discovered right now, 10 years later, and it is still more popular than SC2 in Korea.
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On December 17 2010 01:40 Millitron wrote:
You don't see chess grandmasters saying "Knight is OP, Blizz better nerf it, and holyshit better buff bishops"
IIRC, Go has adjusted the handicap points granted to the second player (komi) several times, and in fact, did not exist until 20th century despite the age of the game.
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OP, you seem to assume that the game developers are perfect designers, and that the voice from the community isn't needed, and will only ruin the game. However, that is false for three reasons.
1. the game developers in blizzard are not perfect, and they know they aren't .that is why they want to hear the voice from everyone. that is why there is PTR. That is why David Kim reads TL. That is why there is a forum for balance issues in Battle.net.
2. this game belongs to the people who buy it. Of course we want to win. Of course we get frustrated when we lose, and of course one of the reasons/excuses for losing is imbalanced. But we have the right to complain. Hell, we even have the right to complain and rant UNREASONABLY. It is up to the designers to see if our arguments/rants/complaints are reasonable or not and take action accordingly. It is natural that people want their race to be good, thats the human nature. think about it in the big political context. Different class want the maximum benefit to their class, regardless of others.
3. NPW does not break the game. It makes the game more popular in a sense. Every game has patches, every game has nerfs. Think SC1 and the many patches and nerfs happened through the 12 years. It is a challenge for the designers to make the game "balanced". However, the definition of balanced is not really a state where everyone is content. It is a state where the most number of players will be able to accept it.
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On December 17 2010 02:21 Logican wrote:
OP, you seem to assume that the game developers are perfect designers, and that the voice from the community isn't needed, and will only ruin the game. However, that is false for three reasons.
1. the game developers in blizzard are not perfect, and they know they aren't .that is why they want to hear the voice from everyone. that is why there is PTR. That is why David Kim reads TL. That is why there is a forum for balance issues in Battle.net.
2. this game belongs to the people who buy it. Of course we want to win. Of course we get frustrated when we lose, and of course one of the reasons/excuses for losing is imbalanced. But we have the right to complain. Hell, we even have the right to complain and rant UNREASONABLY. It is up to the designers to see if our arguments/rants/complaints are reasonable or not and take action accordingly. It is natural that people want their race to be good, thats the human nature. think about it in the big political context. Different class want the maximum benefit to their class, regardless of others.
3. NPW does not break the game. It makes the game more popular in a sense. Every game has patches, every game has nerfs. Think SC1 and the many patches and nerfs happened through the 12 years. It is a challenge for the designers to make the game "balanced". However, the definition of balanced is not really a state where everyone is content. It is a state where the most number of players will be able to accept it.
1. Blizzard devolepers aren't perfect but so aren't we. That means when we moan and complain there is just more flawed opinions. Let's give the ball to blizzard and we can figure out the solutions on our own.
2. People love statistics so I will just throw that out there. 99% of games you lose is because you aren't a perfect player and have something to improve. That 1% might be imbalance but you're much better with perfecting rest of your play than cry about that 1%.
Yes it is human nature to want the best for them/their race and that is one of my point why blizzard shouldn't listen to people. Most of us are selfish and we want that our race has the "kill opponent" button.
3. As you put it, NPW is not breaking the game but it is making our lifes miserable. I almost hope blizzard wouldn't give us the beta and just said this is what you get. Go play.
To be honest I'm not seeing that this whining is ever going to stop. Maybe someday when blizzard stops making patches and people will just have to accept the game as it is or not play it.
Unfortunately that day isn't coming anytime soon.
Also I just want to point out I don't want blizzard to stop caring and patching the game, I just want the whining to stop and if it means no more patches ever, I will take it.
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On December 17 2010 02:12 Carl_Sagan wrote:
I came into this thread intending to agree with the OP, but soon realized he was just an angry hypocrite. It is entirely possible that, in a game as complex as starcraft, there are, indeed, racial imbalances. It is also possible that said imbalanced might have workarounds that people just need to discover, whether it be simply using a different playstyle on a particular map, or learning to adapt.
I agree with what I thought the point of the thread was going to be: people who let their mindset devolve into "my race is UP" or "X race is OP" lose the ability to see their own mistakes and improve. Day9 has mentioned this numerous times.
Also, the OP made some terrible, terrible statements about the state of World of Warcraft. More people play and are happy with the current state of world of warcraft than ever before, and you're basically alone in a room of a handful of elitists like yourself if you think 40man vanilla raiding is better than raiding now.
The REAL lesson to take away from World of Warcraft balancing is that it's almost always better to buff something underpowered than to nerf something overpowered, as far as player psychology goes.
Can you teach me to make an apple pie from scratch ?
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I also made a post like this a month ago. It didn't have an entire wall of text but I suggested a no balance whine policy.
My thread got closed due to "not worthy of a thread".
But I repeat. TeamLiquid should have a 2 week rule that says: NO FUCKING WHINING ON THE FORUMS.
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I would say NPW doesn't ruin the game, rather, it ruins the forums. It's a pet peeve of mine that I can't follow live report threads anymore without being annoyed at the complaints directed towards race and map balance.
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Stopped reading when you wrote WoW kicked daoc in hardcoreness... I laughed so hard.
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EPT
