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Edit: I advice to watch the replays before commenting (especially servyoa vs mana).
Hello teamliquid! Today I decided to watch some TvP replays. I am struggling a lot in TvP since a few weeks and I really hoped that some pro-replays would help me out. I was sure that I was doing something wrong because I read a lot of “TvP is terran favoured”. I decided to watch EmpireKas vs MouzMana and Servyoa vs MouzMana.
The lesson I learned: I am not alone with TvP troubles. EmpiresKas and especially Servyoa played very well and in some games I was 100% sure that they would win. Still they lost. In some games I understood why they lost, but in other games I didn’t.
That’s why I decided to make a thread on teamliquid. My questions for you guys: - how do you feel about TvP? - what could EmpireKas and Servyoa do? - do terrans make wrong unit combinations? - do you think that mech works against protoss (tanks + hellions + thors + Vikings and early game some marines)?
I made a little review about the games, but I advice to watch them by yourself. I didn’t pay attention to Mana’s builds. Sorry for my bad spelling and English.
Game 1: EmpireKas vs MouzMana on xel naga’s caverns http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(T)EmpireKas_vs_(P)mouzMaNa_xel_naga_caverns_sc2rep_com_20101213/3649
+ Show Spoiler +Kas doesn’t take his gas at 13 and he opens with a 16 CC. He takes his 2 gasses and he starts making a second barracks and a factory. He upgrades stim and he adds a third rax. When Mana’s nexus is almost finished, he flies his CC to his natural. Kas takes his third at 12:00, Mana at 12:30. At 13:51 the fight starts. At that moment Kas had 153 supply, Mana had 141. They had the same amount of probes/scv’s. Mana attacks with a mix of zealots, 8 HT’s, stalkers and sentries. Mana defeats the army of Kas and he warps in some new HT’s + zealots. By the time Kas his new units are out, he lost.
Game 2: EmpireKas vs MouzMana on delta quadrant http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)mouzMaNa_vs_(T)EmpireKas_delta_quadrant_sc2rep_com_20101213/3650
+ Show Spoiler +Kas opens a 3rax. At 7:30 Kas moves his army towards Mana. They have the same supply, but mana has 9 more probes, since Kas cutted some scv’s. Mana expanded and he loses his nexus. Mana retreats into his main and he blocks the ramp with a forcefield. Kas loses ¼ of his army. He retreats. Result: 20 scv’s vs 37 probes and protoss lost his nexus. Kas reacts by taking the gold. Mana expands too. At 15:10 we get a fight. Kas has 121 supply, Mana has 121. Result: mana destroys the army of Kas and he moves his units into Kas his base. Kas tried to remake an army but with some zealots and a archon in his base he died.
Game 3: EmpireKas vs MouzMana on Lost Temple http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)mouzMaNa_vs_(T)EmpireKas_lost_temple_sc2rep_com_20101213/3651
+ Show Spoiler +Kas opens with a 21 CC. Mana pressures Kas and Kas retreats to his main. He saves his second CC. Kas retakes his natural and he does some cliffdropping with tanks. He flies back and the result is 51 scv’s vs 43 probes. At this point kas is 20 supply ahead. Mana takes his third at 16:00. At 16:26 Mana (122 supply) attacks into Kas (141 supply) his mix of tanks, ghosts and MMM. Kas wins and mana retreats. Result: 129 supply for Kas, 84 for Mana. Kas got this I thought! Mana delays Kas his third. A new fight starts at 20:36. Both players have the same supply (155). Kas emp’s some of the HT’s. Mana wins the fight and Kas dies immediately.
Game 4: Servyoa vs MouzMana on xel naga’s caverns http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)mouzMaNa_vs_(T)ServyOa_xel_naga_caverns_sc2rep_com_20101213/3652
+ Show Spoiler +Servy opens with a 21 CC. Mana starts his nexus a few minutes later, at 16:17. Servy starts making raxes (total: 5) and he upgrades stim, combat shields and shells. He pressures Mana but Mana held it off. Servy his third at the golds is up at 13:30, Mana starts making his third. At that point Servy is 9 scv’s ahead. Both players have 98 supply. Mana attacks at 14:50 with HT+ gateway units. Servy defends with MMM + ghosts + a planetary fortress. Mana retreats. Result: 124 supply for servy, 93 for mana. Both players are on 3 bases and Servy started his fourth. A few minutes later Mana takes his fourth. Some small battles happen and Servy takes out Mana’s fourth. Servy fights Mana with a 50+ supply difference but he can’t break him. Mana keeps defending, servy keeps on emping HT’s. At 21:54 Servy takes his fifth. Servy takes out Mana’s third and Servy takes his 6th. Servy keeps pressuring but at 26:00 Mana defeats Servy’s army. Mana enters Servy’s base with an archon, zealots and stalkers and Servy dies.
Reactions from topplayers:
On December 13 2010 23:24 4Servy wrote: once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
Please do NOT flame and keep it a nice discussion. I putted some work in this thread and I don't want an admin to close it. I advice to watch the replays before commenting.
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Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382
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On December 13 2010 22:40 Arcanefrost wrote:Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382
I don't agree about the allin part. Terrans also try to play a macro game, and especially game 4 (servyoa vs mana) shows this.
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Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that. As for those matchups,when the two pro players are going at it,we can assume they have almost the same lvl of macro,so it's decided pretty much from unit combinations and in-game decisions as well as micro. Seems to me another QQ thread,learn what in-game decisions and unit combination are good and what are bad at certain cases,then come again QQ-ing about the matchup.I suggest go and find replays where terrans wins(there are so many of them),and then come and post useless threads.That way your time will be better spent,instead of digging 2 or 3 replays where protoss wins because of terran player mistakes.
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On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote: Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls. Why don't you post some replays then? I challenge you to post 5 of them.
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On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote: Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that. . which facts? blizzard internal data show that ladder P players win more than T, MC is bragging he has 95% winrate vs terrans and on top of that completly owns jinro 4-0 who is currently arguably one of the best terrans. (also managed to beat foxer in the process aka 1# kr ladder player with insane winrotio).
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On December 13 2010 22:49 EasternSun wrote: Funny how conveniently you choose such replays,i can show you tons of pro replays in where terrans decimate protoss,not to speak what it is the matchup in the highest lvls.True it is terran favored - the facts shows that. As for those matchups,when the two pro players are going at it,we can assume they have almost the same lvl of macro,so it's decided pretty much from unit combinations and in-game decisions as well as micro. Seems to me another QQ thread,learn what in-game decisions and unit combination are good and what are bad at certain cases,then come again QQ-ing about the matchup.I suggest go and find replays where terrans wins(there are so many of them),and then come and post useless threads.That way your time will be better spent,instead of digging 2 or 3 replays where protoss wins because of terran player mistakes.
percentage's for tvp heavilly favoured the p in blizzards last realease on every server, so please show me ur facts proving otherwise and stop having a go at someone asking for help without any malice at all.
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On December 13 2010 22:40 Arcanefrost wrote:Im a toss player and I think pvt is pretty balanced. The problem is terrans all in too much and don't practice macro games enough imo. Players like Jinro prove that terran is perfectly fine late game in any matchup, but it takes practice. Jinro has been practicing macro for months, trying to be a reactionary player with good lategame and I think it's safe to say he succeeded. On the other hand players like rain will obviously not beat the likes of tester in a macro game. I think boxers 1rax fe build is pretty good. I would recommend watching some korean pvt from the gomtv allstar tournament, observe their build orders and find one that suits your style: http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=event&id=382 There's nothing to gain in a true macro game for T because of amulet templars + warpin. Yeah you can fast expand and all that stuff but once the Templar archives starts the research you might as well pull all SCVs and push because your situation isn't gonna get any better.
I'm not saying P>T because there are certain timing windows T can exploit (and if those are exploited correctly it can make T look really imba) but in a true macro game Toss will most likely win the game.
So yeah if by balanced you mean one race has a really good chance of winning early game and the other will probably win if the game goes late then you're right.
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Well, as a T-user, in a TvP what's foremost on my mind is constantly dropping to pick off tech to abuse the immobility of a toss that goes collosus. At some stage in the game you know the time you will need to add vikings and later ghosts. Then you constantly have to be trying to catch their army in an advantageous position for you such that forcefields are somewhat mitigated. I really dont know wat more to say=\ the replays also show only one aspect of the matchup with a favorable result for P.
And as for the viability of mech, well, i guess Thors can b sprinkled in and a couple of tanks. But ive never seen a heavy tank composition beat toss.
Basically, storm is a scary spell, so try to win before that(Y)
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Are you guys honestly looking at the winrate of he entire diamond division? That means absolutely nothing. In bw protoss had a high ladder winratio but was the least succesful pro race. In pro games it's 54-46 in terrans favor, which means its pretty well balanced. Mc is best pvt atm, again his stats mean nothing, im sure hes more than 50-50 in pvz too..., he is simpy ten times better than jinro and i dont think anyone can beat mc in pvt atm.
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i am a relatively high diamond terran player and i personally think the best way to win tvp (and any other matchup no matter who or what race u are) is to open up with a safe build and just COUNTER WHATEVER THE OPPONENT DOES. for example tvp i usually open by getting 2 rax and expand. BUT if you scout protoss doing early pressure just get stim or/and combat shield (if u see fast void ray) and THEN start ur expo. if u micro well enough u should be able to hold off a few early pushes if ur careful for things like proxy pylons and such.
a game i just played an hour ago was on metalopolis close air positions and i scouted he went fast void ray when i had 2 rax. then i just build 1 more rax and got the infantry ups (stim shield and slow) and was easily able to hold off his void ray harass w/ rines and hold off stalkers w/ rauders. by then i had massed up a large force while his expansion just finished and he only had a void ray and 2 stalkers and having watched day9 i knew the best option was attack so i just 1A'd and won.
now think if he did went something like 2 gate robo expand what would i have done? i would just have gotton 2 rax and get 1 reaper for vision get slow to help micro if he tried to poke and then expand.
if he went dt rush i would do the same thing but get a quick engineering bay and set some turrets.
so i will repeat what i said before. OPEN SAFE AND COUNTER WHATEVER HE DOES. hope it helps
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Im a 2300 Diamond T and my main Problem in Tvp is the Zealot.I would say that i play a macro oriented style and i often try to get my 3 up as soon as possible normaly it works good 4me( i open with 1/1/1 sjow style) In the beginning the zelot isnt a big Problem, u can kite it easily and a few tanks shut down most agresion toss can throw at u in the early stages of the game. However when the game last longer i simply die to mass zealot. When both have their 3 up it becomes rly hard 4 me tp spend my mins in time and i often end up having 1000 overmins and 0 gas. Marines just die to collosi or ht in this stage of the game and arent cost effective if u dont mangae to kill all high tier units at the beginning of the fight. The toss however can mass whatever high tech unit he wants and spend his overmins very easily into mass zealot, which once they have legs are the best dps u can get in my opinion. So while im having trouble to counter ht or colossi and spend most my resources into ghosts or vikings, my bioball jsut dies to spammed zealots. The only asnwer i can think of are upgraded Hellions, but they didnt work well 4 me the times i tried them. I only win these kind of games if the toss decides to attack me and i win the fight. If he decides to play defensivly i jsut dont stand a chance, every drop just gets shut down casue he can wrap in 5 lots/hts and defend it till reinforcments arrive-
Tl;dr: Zealots are a way to good mineral dump + the overhelming strengh of high tier toss units makes it nearly impossible 4 me to kill defensive toss palyers Conclusion: Kill him in 15 min or die
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I've been struggling a lot with TvP recently and feel like the games I win are either early game or when Protoss assumes that the Terran player will just give up and attack move into Zealot/HT if it gets to the late game. I've found that you can't beat a supply-equal Protoss army (so don't let them get to 200/200) or a base-equal Protoss player since Zealots and HTs are so cost efficient (Immortals too since you can't really use Marines against an HT-tech Protoss, but that's a result of HTs and not Immortals themselves), so you have to basically rally units to their base and be constantly keeping their food lower.
(Everything following this applies purely to the late 2base-3base period and beyond)
As for army composition, I mostly use pure Marauder (upgrade early and often!) for my ground force, with a few Ghosts (for EMP, also more on these later) and Vikings (in case they try to tech switch to air and/or resume Colossus production, as well as a cloud of Medivacs. In theory you will only need a medivac per ten or so Marauders (especially since they rarely die) since if you are kiting properly the Zealots won't get a very good surface area, but in reality you'll be running out of energy a lot (especially since you will be near-constantly stimmed) and a competent Protoss player will use feedback early and often. I've toyed with EMPing HTs, but unless I see a huge clump of them I don't bother since it's basically a lost cause once Khaydarin Amulet is out, and I instead save EMP for clumps of shield-heavy units (stalkers, archons, colossi if I don't have a bunch of Vikings, any air units, etc). If none of those units are out, I save my energy for cloak (more on this later).
I also like to get some Banshees late game and use them in combination with Vikings. If the Protoss player is good then they will carpet storm your cloaked banshees but you can still do some serious damage as long as you make sure to snipe all their observers first so that the HTs can't feedback you the instant they see your banshees and prevent cloaking. You also might be able to get away with them if you have so many Marauders that Stalkers aren't really an option for the Protoss, although in that case they should be making Phoenix regardless.
+ Show Spoiler [My thoughts on the units] +Marines: Obviously great early game, and a waste of money late game. I'd rather be banking 3000 minerals than have 60 Marines, although Marauders are mineral-heavy enough that you shouldn't really be banking much.
Marauders: Basically the core of your army all game. Not that great against most Protoss units (Zealots, Immortals, HTs mostly) but a lot better than Marines by virtue of not dying instantly, and in general more versatile and efficient than other units against the Protoss ground army.
Reapers: Haven't really had any use for these guys.
Ghosts: Obviously EMP, but as I said I don't stress about EMPing single high templar. I usually get 2-3 Ghost Academies if it goes for a very late game and start using them for cloak+nuke since if you drop several nukes and engage at the same time it can have the same effect as drops--they can't divide their attention everywhere, so you are guaranteed to do some damage, and as it happens nukes tend to be a lot harder to spot and a lot more devastating than drops are.
Hellions: Good for mineral line harass, but surprisingly underwhelming against Zealot/HT compared to how you'd think they'd perform based on theory. I'd prefer to have pure Marauder for my main army in most situations, but I think I could experiment more with a hellion flank while my Marauder ball is engaging. Storm is also annoying since the fact that these are mechanical makes repairing damage a huge hassle, so you're probably better off suiciding them into random mineral lines once they take significant damage.
Tanks: Basically worse against everything they counter than Marauders are and countered harder by everything that counters Marauders, not to mention they lock you down mobility-wise. I don't see any reason to get tanks in this matchup past some early game tank drop shenanigans.
Thors: Pretty good, but really slow and once again they seem worse against (almost?) everything than Marauders are, largely because they can't kite. I don't make them unless the Protoss wants to try to abuse my lack of antiair and thus need some support for my Vikings against enemy Phoenix (which essentially never happens).
Medivacs: Keep a giant cloud of these above your Marauders at all times. They are essential for survival while constantly stimming and kiting, they rarely die, and they let you do drops when you get the opportunity.
Vikings: Work great in synergy with Banshees to snipe Observers, but I wouldn't keep more than a few around unless the Protoss is making air and/or Colossi.
Banshees: Decent in direct combat although the real killer is that they have their own set of upgrades that are kind of useless otherwise. If you can keep their Observer count down you should be able to force a bunch of cannons and in general cause pain for the lack of safe Protoss mobile detection until they start adding a lot of Phoenix to their army.
Ravens: Basically useless once HTs come out but really good until then. You might want to experiment with keeping an EMPed raven around to save scan energy when hunting Observers.
Battlecruisers: Seem awful post-damage nerf, but there might be some use for a couple Battlecruisers behind your Marauder ball if you catch them without any decent amount of anti-air. However, I suspect that anything that Battlecruisers can do, Banshees can do better.
This is all against ~2000-2500 Protoss (practice partners + ladder), so it obviously isn't gospel so much as my experiences with the matchup in the past few weeks.
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On December 13 2010 23:05 Arcanefrost wrote: Are you guys honestly looking at the winrate of he entire diamond division? That means absolutely nothing. In bw protoss had a high ladder winratio but was the least succesful pro race. In pro games it's 54-46 in terrans favor, which means its pretty well balanced. Mc is best pvt atm, again his stats mean nothing, im sure hes more than 50-50 in pvz too..., he is simpy ten times better than jinro and i dont think anyone can beat mc in pvt atm.
Ya.... um TBH the win rate definitely means something, even if it's all of diamond or not.
Where are you getting this 54-46? (pro games? not very specific)
MC is a good Protoss whole bit about him being best PvT well that's debatable.
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once protoss has the amulet its gg, its ridic how imba that upgrade is my dog can win with protoss after they got the amulet.
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Both TvP and TvZ I try to hit this critical timing window before Storm, eventually Zerg's macro kicks in.. Then its straight downhill right from there and Im never able to catch up no matter what.
It seems like mech would be a good transition for late game, but it lacks answer to Protoss air and Zerg tech switches.
I dont like this current state of the game as it really seems to be like "win in 12-15 minutes or give up", but what can you do.. :-)
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TvP is balanced in a strange way. Terran has the advantage until you reach the late game. If you let a Protoss player take a third base then you are dead.
You need to use a timing attack to destroy the Protoss natural. The scary Protoss units are HT and Colossi, which realistically require two bases or more.
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So is Ghost after the energie upgrade... HT without 75 energy are useless, while Ghosts are not.
Terran has so much advantage for Early Agression, Attack, delay the enemy Natural while expanding this should always give you an economic advantage, now build up and try some drop harass.
So many good harass options , use it.
HT with Storm and Energie Upgrade is almost the highest Techlevel Protoss can get, if you then are still walking around with M&M sure you gonna die.
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On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote: So is Ghost after the energie upgrade...
HT without energy upgrade are useless.
Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds..
Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
edit: We are not talking here about early game.. Everyone knows Terran is strong with bio early game and has lots of harrasment options. But since everyone wants bigger maps and those all-ins will die eventually, guess what happens..
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On December 13 2010 23:55 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2010 23:51 freetgy wrote: So is Ghost after the energie upgrade...
HT without energy upgrade are useless. Ghost needs to fucking walk 1 at time while your warped-in templars storm and feedback just about everything in 5 seconds.. Doesnt sound balanced to me comparing to ghosts..
sure if you exclude the ressource needed to support these ... Ghosts are way earlier available and don't need EMP research...
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