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I have play a lot of PvP recently and i realize how CHEESY this match up currently is. there is no longer rock paper scissor but mostly getting 4 gates rush wrap stack up resources and spam proxy pylons IN the enymy base.
Pylons are strong enough that if your try to tech normally, your couple of stalker/zealots basicly cant kill 4 of them fast enough so wrap fest into middle of your base and crush you early.
im really frustrated bc on some map like scrap station or DO where the ground army takes time to reach the other base, this strat is too strong that it happen almost 100% everygame.
I want to know more on the build order of this strat and how to counter this.
also, this has been used by the korean since the start of Beta!
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Thread on this build order
I don't think it is overpowered anymore, but it is strong against 12-13 gate builds. Just focus on making units and killing your opponent's units. Don't stop mining and don't get supply blocked.
EDIT: Some detailed tips:
-Scout properly. Warning signs include: no units after cybernetics, heavily chronoboosted warpgate, possibly removing probes from gas
-Maintain production. Don't power all your warp gates on one pylon. You should get at least 3 gates when you scout this build.
-Kill the probe. You can throw off your opponent's timing by killing his scouting probe early. If you kill it before it builds 4 pylons, you might be able to destroy all of the pylons before his warpgate tech finishes.
-Attack the first wave of units as they warp in. That little head start can go a long way.
-Do not attack with all of your workers. If there are four pylons don't attack the pylon with workers, you will have units warping into your base. Sending all your probes to defend is wasteful and cuts in to your mining time, preventing you from warping in units. If you need to use workers to attack to gain an advantage, use no more than 5 because that's usually the most that can attack at a time anyway. The instant you pull all your probes off the minerals is the moment you've lost the game.
-Use stalkers, and keep them alive. Chances are your opponent has cut back on gas to pull this off. Stalkers are easier to micro and having enough of them will grant you an advantage eventually. Sentries are pretty useless in this situation unless you see an opportunity to trap his zealots somewhere, or if you are very low on minerals.
Check this replay for more tips:
Replay
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i pm-ed you, please contact me since i cant watch your replays >.<
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On July 19 2010 10:14 NB wrote:
I have play a lot of PvP recently and i realize how CHEESY this match up currently is. there is no longer rock paper scissor but mostly getting 4 gates rush wrap stack up resources and spam proxy pylons IN the enymy base.
Pylons are strong enough that if your try to tech normally, your couple of stalker/zealots basicly cant kill 4 of them fast enough so wrap fest into middle of your base and crush you early.
im really frustrated bc on some map like scrap station or DO where the ground army takes time to reach the other base, this strat is too strong that it happen almost 100% everygame.
I want to know more on the build order of this strat and how to counter this.
also, this has been used by the korean since the start of Beta!
Block + Kill probe. Probes have less health than pylons still right? What is it... 4 stalker shots... if your trying to kill all the pylons he makes while letting a 40hp probe run around, well then may I suggest Candyland.
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I don't understand, where is your army while he's putting pylons in your base?
Shouldn't you be able to beat him easily if he spends 400 minerals on proxy pylons and you spend it on units instead? Not to mention units warping in get demolished. Is he warping in DTs or something?
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Don't let trash run around in your base. These days, I almost always make a zealot and then a stalker as soon as possible. He can't get warpgates before you get your stalker, so kill the probe in your base with your stalker (chrono boost if necessary) and gun down any pylons he may have built.
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I think PvP is stupid in general. I'm 400~ ELO Diamond and I still win the majority of my PvP games by either going 4 gate Stalkers (with a little variation in the standard BO to get a one-up on Stalkers) on maps without tight ramps/chokes or 2 gate Robo on maps with tight ramps (reasoning behind this is that I pump out Sentries to spam FF on my ramp while I pump out enough Immortals to hard counter his Stalkers with the support of my Sentries/Stalkers/Probes (a few, if need be).
I actually had a game where my opponent and I did the exact same thing. It was a literal mirror match on LT - 2 gate Robo with Sentries to wall off. He actually made an Observer which should have given me the upper hand but unfortunately I forgot about one Immortal and left it in my base for around 5-10 minutes. Anyway, what ended up happening was we both engaged in the middle, we both had a few Immortals with some excellent FFs pretty much obliterating each other's Immortals (and funnily enough, Sentries). We both brought a Probe and made proxy pylons in the middle of the map, a bit closer to their base (cross position). We then spammed 4 gate warp ins with the occasional Immortal when our money let us. We then incorporated Zealots to kill each other's Immortals and with sufficient micro, the Immortals would die but so would the Zealots. It literally became a back and forth stalemate situation where neither player could expand nor switch tech lest he be overrun. The end conclusion? He dropped. Yes, I know, how anticlimactic.
Long story short: PvP is stupid. It either becomes 4 gate rush with the slight variation of Robo. Blink Stalkers prevent any creative sort of play involving static D and expanding is just not an option. As much as I love blink, it needs serious re-working.
Oh and my little variation is (if I'm doing 4 gate and not 2 gate Robo) to skip the first gas and use the minerals to build a second Gateway while Core is building. Then pump out Stalkers and harass (maybe get a free kill or two), delay warp gate by a tiny bit to get your Stalkers out and the second gas up around/a little before you put down the next two Gates. You might have to skimp on the probe production just a little but at most you'll be behind by 2 probes which you can catch up on by CB'ing your probes/Stalkers. Since your opponent will most likely be boosting his warp gate, you can catch up on probes and overrun his Stalker count. The logic behind this is that warp gate doesn't actually accelerate your Stalker production, it essentially lets you skip a production cycle regardless of when it's finished but that shouldn't matter since you have a few extra Stalkers anyway.
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Just chronoboost your first stalker and focus the probe.
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I was thinking, if you scout this coming, would it be a good idea to get a forge+cannon at your choke? Forge builds faster than a gateway and you should be able to get a cannon up faster than you would a stalker. With cannons plus your ground army you should be able to hold your ramp. Assuming you kept producing probes and your opponent cut probes, you should be economically ahead and you can go robo tech as you turtle.
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scout it by:
- noticing it's a 10 gate
- noticing he's saving chronos
respond by:
- follow a probe on his probe to make sure you don't miss any pylons.
- zealot before 2nd gas, chrono stalker. kill all pylons with zealot and stalker.
you will be able to kill all his pylons in good time before his wg is finished.
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Id pretty much just 4gate also, i have to do this because 99.99% of games involve them 4gating
then it just comes down to who has more units / better unit comp/ better forcefields
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On July 19 2010 10:24 Tozar wrote:Check this replay for more tips: Replay
Hey that's me!
EDIT: FortuneSyn is right on all counts.
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There is always the possibility of another probe coming in to put new pylons up while your units are dealing with the other pylons. In that case, you better be prepared. 4 gate is recommended, but you can get by on three if you use them efficiently.
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I'd like to stop doing the 4-warp in mineral line but I can't. I'm addicted. My PvP's winrate is so much higher than the other two.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
This is insanely hard to hold. The first guy who did it to me had a build down so that it worked so fast and efficiently that it was literally impossible to kill the probe before he started pylons.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Warpgate1.sc2replay
Noting this, I bastardised his build and tried to use a similar version I made up on the the fly. The result? Exactly the same as before - he couldn't kill my probe before the pylons started warping in. And then he couldn't kill the probe.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Warpgate2.sc2replay
I don't see how you can beat this using straight up 1 gate play =/ I mean, even if you kill the probe and are able to shut down the pylons - there's no way you'll be able to do that without dedicating tons of probes to bring them down. Then I can just laugh and chrono some probes out and catch up in economy. Since I already have a core I'm not behind in tech either. Stupidly good build imo.
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ya, this build is tough to beat if you don't know it's coming. If you have the timing down right, a chrono boosted stalker may not save you, depending on the distance of the probe and your rally point. It's literally that tight. Once the pylons go up, you are pretty much fucked because warp gates can outproduce gateways badly and if he kills enough probes, you can't come back.
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there is nothing hard about beating this once you actually put some effort in with a practice partner. You don't need to pull any probes except the first one to follow him around.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 19 2010 22:11 FortuneSyn wrote:
there is nothing hard about beating this once you actually put some effort in with a practice partner. You don't need to pull any probes except the first one to follow him around.
I would like to see some replays, since the timings you cited above seem to be cutting it a bit thin. Equally, this isn't very hard to scout, there are many many obvious tells (like you correctly point out) yet I dont see how you stop the probe from putting down three pylons in your base. Even with zeal/stalker you're not going to kill all three before the warps start coming in.
EDIT: watched Tozar game and I think it demonstrates why this build is so good  . Firstly, the initial pylons were poorly positioned making his initial zealots attack from an inferior position. Better positioned they could have done a lot more damage imo. Secondly, Tozar was able to kill a significant number of probes and indeed came out ahead after the initial exchange. Despite defending the 4warpgate, his opponent was still behind. And that really is the power of the build.
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What about walling off? 10 gate chronoboosted zealot and the pylon/gateway blocking the entrance. That way he can't send in a probe to start the warp-in. If he gets a scout in, you can usually micro your probes to kill it and if not, chrono a stalker to take it out.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 19 2010 22:29 deth2munkies wrote:
What about walling off? 10 gate chronoboosted zealot and the pylon/gateway blocking the entrance. That way he can't send in a probe to start the warp-in. If he gets a scout in, you can usually micro your probes to kill it and if not, chrono a stalker to take it out.
I'd just order the probe to mine the minerals your main. The probe will float over the zealot (if you're able to get it out in time, which i doubt) and proceed to lay pylons.
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EPT
