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johngalt90
United States357 Posts
for the opponent to counter this its tough to deal with but certainly not impossible. at the point of warpgates being online the best strategy is to drop some cannons and hold your main. this build is so hard to pull off tho as warpgate tech takes a long time to research so it is not quite as powerful and losing your probe early to zealots or other probes equals gg as its doubtful you will get another in the main | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Now things are back to the way they were before, with Zealots at a 33s build time, which means 2-gate pushes are back, Sentries and Stalkers are harder to field, Zealots are therefore stronger for longer and Collossi become important again. | ||
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FreeZEternal
Korea (South)3396 Posts
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
I always played 1 gate robo gate builds on any map with a ramp, and i did just fine (finished 537 diamond ELO) | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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Opti
United States155 Posts
Something else to note: it's very easy to sneak an early probe into the base and hide it in a corner on a 2 player map. A bit more difficult if you ahve to scout the enemy first on a 4 player map, but all the same.. in pvp the players tend to sim city (more economical, easier to defend) rather than wall off, and as such it is very easy to "fake" a probe leaving the base, only to run it by the edge of the cliff out of your opponents sight range and then hide it in a corner. When Warp Tech is almost finished, warp in a hidden pylon and start warping units in. Sometimes i let it go for 2-3 warp in cycles before i attack, and i can usually take out a good 1/3 of the opponents workers before they even know whats going on. Sometimes, if i get really lucky, they will be halfway to my base getting ready to push me, and i can take out key pylons or buildings and workers. Even if he opts to base trade at this point, its a pretty easy win in my favor. Ive also just used the "brute force" pylon tactic where i just warp in 3-4 pylons by his mineral line and keep warping units in. You're right, theres no way they can kill all the pylons before they finish. I think the real strength of this build is that you can really power out drones until you have 100% saturation while you are researchign warp tech, and by the time it's done, you can warp in from 4 or even 5 gates depending on the units you warp in constantly. Because you worked so hard to get your warp tech early, you have a huge army advantage over your opponent from doign warp ins, and you just overwhelm them quickly. Honestly, i don't think there is anything wrong with this build or strat. It is very easy to scout it, if you see constant chronoboosting of warp tech + 4x fast gates being put up and no units being produced from them.. it's pretty obvious. Imo this is probably going to become the standard in PvP, because it just stomps any other build with the exception of all in 2 gating, which is easy to scout. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
http://www.mediafire.com/file/xj3326z6lalp3h9/DesertOasisTehEmperorerVSProxyToss.SC2Replay | ||
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frogmelter
United States971 Posts
On July 21 2010 04:45 tehemperorer wrote: Here's a replay I have of me beating some proxy gate... Tell me I couldn't have won against this 4 gate "Korean style" shit. http://www.mediafire.com/file/xj3326z6lalp3h9/DesertOasisTehEmperorerVSProxyToss.SC2Replay Seriously read the thread or watch some replays... You would have build order loss against his build so yes, you couldn't have won against this 4 gate "Korean style" shit. I feel like you just posted a replay just to brag about some win | ||
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Alternity
United States74 Posts
If you can mass right outside their base with a hidden pylon you can do a lot of damage after you mass enough units. just try to deny his scouting and if you can see that he is going 4gate as well you can wait till he moves out and then pincer attack him. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On July 21 2010 05:07 frogmelter wrote: Seriously read the thread or watch some replays... You would have build order loss against his build so yes, you couldn't have won against this 4 gate "Korean style" shit. I feel like you just posted a replay just to brag about some win I take it you didn't watch then, and yes, I would have easily won against this crap. It's not unbeatable. Edit: I'm not posting to brag, I couldn't care less. It bugs me when people whine about stuff being impossible to beat, ask for a solution, and then shoot down one that is offered with concrete proof. Though my replay wasn't the Korean style rush, it would have gone down the same way it did in the replay; with me winning. | ||
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getSome[703]
United States753 Posts
On July 21 2010 06:17 tehemperorer wrote: I take it you didn't watch then, and yes, I would have easily won against this crap. It's not unbeatable. Edit: I'm not posting to brag, I couldn't care less. It bugs me when people whine about stuff being impossible to beat, ask for a solution, and then shoot down one that is offered with concrete proof. Though my replay wasn't the Korean style rush, it would have gone down the same way it did in the replay; with me winning. What bugs me is when people post a replay of a game of them going build x against build y, and then claiming it will 100% defeat build z. I for one took time to watch your replay, and other than the fact that it is utter trash (cannons against proxy gates - haha) it would NOT have even come close to beating it. Any competent player doing the proxy pylon build would recognize that since you took time to get a forge and 2nd gate you will have a very, very late cyber core and that player will easily be able to out produce you (4 warpgates vs 2 regular gates and late core = no contest). You would certainly not have won. On a more friendly and helpful note of what is mostly theorycrafting: This is a very tough build to deal with. Blizzard can't really nerf anything related to this build without nerfing protoss versus other matchups as well (Warpgate cooldown time and pylon health come to mind but would obvious have huge other implications). I would say however that attacking the pylons is NOT the answer, unless perhaps you manage to kill the probe before four pylons are down. The player places down four pylons knowing that it will be impossible for you to destroy all of them before warp-in commences, so attacking them only plays into their hands (go ahead and attack them with units of course if their probe is dead, but don't pull any of your probes and sacrifice economy). Because you can't be sure if they will get all their pylons down, and because a good player will plant four pylons before their probe is killed, it's more important IMO to focus on quickly recognizing the build and reacting accordingly. Making two zealots before a stalker may be helpful (saw a build order of HuK winning this way against Tozar doing this build). Save chronos for units and warpgates, and try to attack units as they are warping in, pulling enough probes to give you the advantage against their units. | ||
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Anon06
United States203 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
The strategy you want to beat is when they warp in zealots... As soon as I saw the proxy gate I put down a forge. Once he tried to attack I knew he would go stalkers because that failed. I then go to stalkers, and soon after I went Immortal. At no point did he interrupt my mining, and if he had done anything different I would have responded differently, but with the same level of success. I've had people try warping crap into my base before, trust me, it doesn't work. | ||
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Opti
United States155 Posts
On July 21 2010 07:30 tehemperorer wrote: I won the game against proxy gates, and it is trash? You're really saying that cannons are bad against zealots, especially when the zeals need to walk all the away across my base to get in at them in a space 1 unit wide? You make it sound like I spammed cannons, which I didn't... I placed them in the right positions and he couldn't do shit, and that's exactly what I would do against this "unbeatable" strategy. The end of the game would be the moment I get my warp prism, it is as simple as that. The strategy you want to beat is when they warp in zealots... As soon as I saw the proxy gate I put down a forge. Once he tried to attack I knew he would go stalkers because that failed. I then go to stalkers, and soon after I went Immortal. At no point did he interrupt my mining, and if he had done anything different I would have responded differently, but with the same level of success. I've had people try warping crap into my base before, trust me, it doesn't work. The problem with spending resources early on in the game on static defense in your main is that it leaves behind in army size, unless your opponent is stupid enough to keep slamming against your cannons while you have units to defend them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying cannons are bad, I'm just saying that putting them in your main puts you at a disadvantage because you will then have less invested in your actual army. The smart thing to do for your opponent would be to simply prevent you from expanding by keeping up pressure and keeping you inside your base, take his own expansion and win the macro game while teching up. The nice thing about 4 gating is that even if you use all your cooldowns on gates, if you have your 1 base 100% saturated you can usually find the minerals to expand fairly quickly without sacrificing gate cooldowns. | ||
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getSome[703]
United States753 Posts
On July 21 2010 07:30 tehemperorer wrote: I won the game against proxy gates, and it is trash? You're really saying that cannons are bad against zealots, especially when the zeals need to walk all the away across my base to get in at them in a space 1 unit wide? You make it sound like I spammed cannons, which I didn't... I placed them in the right positions and he couldn't do shit, and that's exactly what I would do against this "unbeatable" strategy. The end of the game would be the moment I get my warp prism, it is as simple as that. The strategy you want to beat is when they warp in zealots... As soon as I saw the proxy gate I put down a forge. Once he tried to attack I knew he would go stalkers because that failed. I then go to stalkers, and soon after I went Immortal. At no point did he interrupt my mining, and if he had done anything different I would have responded differently, but with the same level of success. I've had people try warping crap into my base before, trust me, it doesn't work. I'm not saying that cannons are bad against zealots. You won that game is because the other player had a terrible proxy build (even making a pylon in his base before the forward pylon). Typically the attack will come long before your cannon is up, and thus building a forge only impedes your zealot count. The reason this would not work against the "Korean proxy" is that you have such a late core. You have both late warp gates and late stalkers, and the cannons that you have up would not be adequate defense against a few warped in stalkers which would pick at your buildings without you being able to do anything about it. This in particular holds no water: At no point did he interrupt my mining, and if he had done anything different I would have responded differently, but with the same level of success | ||
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Colty.colty
United States23 Posts
On July 21 2010 07:22 Anon06 wrote: @ plexa i have a simple solution to this. deny the scout entry to ur base. how you say? simple build two gates or one gate one cyber core at your entrance ( i prefer two gates as it tricks them into thinking your're going to zealot rush and puts them on d + your core can't get sniped) and have a probe hold position in the small gap like you would a zealot. if it does get in before you build those chrono boost a stalker asap and take out the probe. you can also build ur wall with one gate one pylon but the pylon can get sniped there later in the game. I mentioned your suggestion earlier, so again, I'm going to repeat what the deal is: if you have not spotted the build, or if you've guessed incorrectly, then yes, it's advantageous to have a two gate at the main or a one-gate/one-cyber build. This is dependent upon a few things, though. Either A) You kill the probe that is currently in your base before you can put down the two gates, thus preventing further probes from coming in, or B) the player is not able to get the probe inside in the first place. In which case, you will need to either be clever about your zealot/probe placement to kill his scouting probe or you'll need to spend cash on a stalker. Also, since the build resembles a typical gate/cyber opening, you're still going to need to deal with what he transition to if he spots a 2-gate opening. If you've spotted the build, then there are other ways to react. You can prepare with additional zealots, you can block the corners of your mineral line (or even wall-in entirely, if so inclined), or you can follow all the other tips suggested. Personally, I'd rather spot the build early and react, but to each his own. | ||
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On July 21 2010 07:45 getSome[703] wrote: I'm not saying that cannons are bad against zealots. You won that game is because the other player had a terrible proxy build (even making a pylon in his base before the forward pylon). Typically the attack will come long before your cannon is up, and thus building a forge only impedes your zealot count. The reason this would not work against the "Korean proxy" is that you have such a late core. You have both late warp gates and late stalkers, and the cannons that you have up would not be adequate defense against a few warped in stalkers which would pick at your buildings without you being able to do anything about it. This in particular holds no water: I think that last sentence sums it up... I did what I did because I saw what he was doing and knew to counter it... If I know he is going stalkers I can let off the zealot production and get an earlier core, but since I was able to see all his zealots, I knew he had a late core too. I guess my point is that with the 2 or 3 cannons I had at the beginning of the match, and the units I had (even though I had less), my base configuration made it so that even with greater numbers that strategy simply does not work! | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On July 21 2010 07:22 Anon06 wrote: @ plexa i have a simple solution to this. deny the scout entry to ur base. how you say? simple build two gates or one gate one cyber core at your entrance ( i prefer two gates as it tricks them into thinking your're going to zealot rush and puts them on d + your core can't get sniped) and have a probe hold position in the small gap like you would a zealot. if it does get in before you build those chrono boost a stalker asap and take out the probe. you can also build ur wall with one gate one pylon but the pylon can get sniped there later in the game. how can you deny a probe scout, when the probe scouts at 10? There's no map where the probe won't get into your base and run around until the time is right. Even a chronoboosted stalker MIGHT be too late. It really depends on where the probe is and where your gate is. The timing is that tight. What works against this build, most of the time, is chrono boosting 1 zealot and attacking. The zealot comes out much faster than warp gates can be finished, the build requires all chronoboosts to be used on warp gate research else the timing is extremely off and money is pretty tight, so much so that adding a zealot to the build ruins the timing significantly. | ||
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trucejl
120 Posts
if he doesnt make a stalker to chase your probe out, you should c the amount of gates hes putting up. match the number hes putting up and you should be fine. if he still puts a bunch of pylons in your base and warp stuff in, you will have the gates to match it. you will also have the benefits of probes helping in the fight and your opponent having to spent 400 mineral on 4 pylons in your base. PvP is practically completely based on timing right now since not having a equal sized army is GG. the reinforcement speed of warp gate is just too strong for you to have a smaller army and stay alive. | ||
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