On July 21 2010 04:06 Ghostcom wrote: ^ Where are you getting stalkers from? Isn't the korean style pure zlots? oh and if you continue to mine gas, if something goes wrong you could just transition to a traditionally 4-gate push, couldn't you?
u can make some stalkers too but first wave should be zlots. and u can 4gate push but you cut probes in this build so you will come up behind your opponent who went thirteen gate and hasnt quit his probe production. this build commits to a timing attack if you cant produce in that timing you are in really bad shape not to mention youll have to rebuild the destroyed pylons in your main
A lot of people in this thread aren't checking the replays or appreciating what build we are discussing here. As such, if I get time I'll record a video of it and upload it so everyone is on the same page.
The only build which defeats this 90% of the time is a double proxy gate (which actually defeats 13 gate 90% of the time as well). Without the beta online all we can do to check the validity of other openings against this build is check the timings on the various builds. If you think you have a legitimate counter to this build then please, post a replay here and I'll check the timings on it and see if it is valid. For the record, this build is best used on Scrap station but also works well on other two player maps and as such all considerations will be made with the assumption that the map is scrap station. (The idea behind this is, if it is broken on scrap station then it can be broken on other maps and hence needs fixing. If it is not broken on scrap station, then it shouldn't be broken on any other map since it is clearly most effective on SS)
(I have read the whole thread now) From a game-theory-point-of-view: There is a build that beats all standard openings quite often and quite easily. But there is another build that beats that build 90% of the time and also wins against the standard opening fairly often. So in my eyes the answer to beat this strategy is not "chronoboost your first stalker" or "deny scouting" etc. It is rather the fact that there is a definite counter to it, so this korean style 4 gate warp should not be used too often, because then everyone would do 2 proxy gates.
This btw is the reason why SC:BW is so great, because the nash equilibria for all matchups is often a single strategy with some variations, and not a mix of different strategies. For example: In PvZ you can forge FE and it will be possible to defend all cheese that the opponent can throw at you. Of course anyone can differ from the nash equilibrium, e.g. by building nexus first in PvT, but then there is a strategy (bunkerrush) that will beat it almost always, so you cant do it very often, and it also isnt a game winner on its own.
In Starcraft 2 there are currently a lot of strategies not only in PvP but also in almost all other matchups, where the nash equilibrium is a mix of different strategies, the example being 4gate korean style and 2gate proxy and lets say a well executed standard opening, where those three can be seen as rock paper scissors in some way (even though theyre not equaly in their winratios against the other 2, this does not affect the outcome much, since a player only has to adjust how often he chooses each strategy). This generally is very bad for the game, since compared to rock paper scissors, it will take around 5-10 minutes to realize you made the wrong choice and lost the game which is very annoying.
Sometimes a strategy will evolve, that is economically inferior to some other strategies, but will be able to defend against every single cheese possible. This partly is already happening for SC2, where there were times when everyone used banelingbusts vs Terran, toss ALWAYS 2gate proxied etc. Some of those were fixed by Blizzard, some where actually fixed by the evolution of the players strategies.
Therefore the players must either come up with a way to beat the cheeses, but this strategy must not be behind economically compared to a standard opening. The thing is, that this is obviously not too hard for mirror matchups, since there can not be any unfair strategy. However, for the sake of "fun" games that are "good to watch", these strategies should be a bit more complex then the one discussed in this thread.
On July 21 2010 15:47 Plexa wrote: The only build which defeats this 90% of the time is a double proxy gate (which actually defeats 13 gate 90% of the time as well).
I don't think double proxy is the only way to go. As powerful as I think this build is, it seems to crumble under any kind of early aggression.
A 10-gate chronoboosted zealot is heading for your base with another one queued. What do you do? You have to start making zealots right? You can't afford to have it wail on your probes while your warpgate tech finishes. And if you're matching his zealot count, those gateways are going to be delayed significantly.
Outside the occasional cannon rush and proxy gates, early PvP is usually so passive, that's why this works so often. It might actually help the matchup in the long run by forcing early exchanges just to prevent this.
On July 21 2010 15:47 Plexa wrote: The only build which defeats this 90% of the time is a double proxy gate (which actually defeats 13 gate 90% of the time as well).
I don't think double proxy is the only way to go. As powerful as I think this build is, it seems to crumble under any kind of early aggression.
A 10-gate chronoboosted zealot is heading for your base with another one queued. What do you do? You have to start making zealots right? You can't afford to have it wail on your probes while your warpgate tech finishes. And if you're matching his zealot count, those gateways are going to be delayed significantly.
Outside the occasional cannon rush and proxy gates, early PvP is usually so passive, that's why this works so often. It might actually help the matchup in the long run by forcing early exchanges just to prevent this.
Firstly, on scrap station 10gate chrono'd zealot isn't going to be viable against any kind of standard play and you'll be playing catchup for the whole game. Secondly given the rush distance it isn't hard for a small adaptation to take place and just match the zealot count. Thirdly, the minerals invested into the Zealot just mean one less pylon in the main, not a big deal really =/. I dno.. doesn't seem like a good idea.
On July 21 2010 21:37 Plexa wrote:Firstly, on scrap station 10gate chrono'd zealot isn't going to be viable against any kind of standard play and you'll be playing catchup for the whole game. Secondly given the rush distance it isn't hard for a small adaptation to take place and just match the zealot count. Thirdly, the minerals invested into the Zealot just mean one less pylon in the main, not a big deal really =/. I dno.. doesn't seem like a good idea.
I see what you mean. One thing, though. You can't just say "1 zealot just means 1 less pylon in the main". The minerals you have when it's time to drop the pylons are available because you haven't been doing anything since you started 3 gateways. Having to spend minerals on 1-2 zealots has an immediate effect on the build. Gateways will be delayed. Whether that's enough to make a difference I can't say for sure. I'm not usually on the other end of this build :D
On July 21 2010 15:47 Plexa wrote: A lot of people in this thread aren't checking the replays or appreciating what build we are discussing here. As such, if I get time I'll record a video of it and upload it so everyone is on the same page.
The only build which defeats this 90% of the time is a double proxy gate (which actually defeats 13 gate 90% of the time as well). Without the beta online all we can do to check the validity of other openings against this build is check the timings on the various builds. If you think you have a legitimate counter to this build then please, post a replay here and I'll check the timings on it and see if it is valid. For the record, this build is best used on Scrap station but also works well on other two player maps and as such all considerations will be made with the assumption that the map is scrap station. (The idea behind this is, if it is broken on scrap station then it can be broken on other maps and hence needs fixing. If it is not broken on scrap station, then it shouldn't be broken on any other map since it is clearly most effective on SS)
Actually I disagree that a proxy gate defeats this 90% of the time. In my eyes, this build will almost always defeat a proxy gate build (with good scouting and micro). Because it appears standard to probe scout after the 10 gateway, the player has quite a lot of time to check around for proxy gates and throw up another gateway. The player who originally intended to do the build can easily throw down another gateway, and with a stronger economy (not sending the early probe to build a forward pylon) and faster gateways (unless the other player does something like 9/10 instead of 10/12) should be able to win.
Granted, if the proxy gates go unscouted, it is an autoloss. But I can't think of a situation where you wouldn't want to take time to scout for proxy gates when doing this build.
I think standard two gate zealot pushes would be the most effective strategy against this build. I don't have any replays of it, but perhaps you could check the standard timing of when the proxy pylon player's probe scout arrives in the enemy base, see if their core has been thrown up yet, and see how far ahead on gateways the two gating player is. I think it would again come down to zealot micro, but I think a standard two gate opening would be much more effective than proxy gates.
On July 21 2010 10:56 trucejl wrote: PvP is practically completely based on timing right now since not having a equal sized army is GG. the reinforcement speed of warp gate is just too strong for you to have a smaller army and stay alive.
I agree somewhat, though I would say that even without an equal size army you can still win with positioning and micro. Also, you should be aware of the pylons and their psy radius, since killing one before their troops are warped in will cancel them.
On July 21 2010 15:47 Plexa wrote: A lot of people in this thread aren't checking the replays or appreciating what build we are discussing here. As such, if I get time I'll record a video of it and upload it so everyone is on the same page.
The only build which defeats this 90% of the time is a double proxy gate (which actually defeats 13 gate 90% of the time as well). Without the beta online all we can do to check the validity of other openings against this build is check the timings on the various builds. If you think you have a legitimate counter to this build then please, post a replay here and I'll check the timings on it and see if it is valid. For the record, this build is best used on Scrap station but also works well on other two player maps and as such all considerations will be made with the assumption that the map is scrap station. (The idea behind this is, if it is broken on scrap station then it can be broken on other maps and hence needs fixing. If it is not broken on scrap station, then it shouldn't be broken on any other map since it is clearly most effective on SS)
I think you're right (though really triple proxy gate is what you'll end up seeing if the game doesn't end immediately). In fact, I don't see a reason to not proxy 3 gate every single game. PvP is the dumbest matchup, well dwarfing ZvZ which is way way way stupider than TvP TvT TvZ or PvZ.
I will point out why this is the case, because it really is super simple: Protoss has no micro-effective unit.
There is not a single unit in the protoss arsenal which, if controlled properly, can be made to kill more of the same unit. You could micro a reaver to kill plenty of reavers in BW. You can't do that in this game. Therefore there is no way to use skill and execution to hold off an attack. You just need more stuff.
Compare this to ZvZ. Banelings are the primary example of a unit that is micro effective. Two blings can kill 20 blings if you play smart with them. It then becomes about control and allows a player to use less stuff and gain an economic advantage, or other advantage. Queens with transfusion micro also do the same thing. Mutas are heavily micro based. Roach vs roach spam back in early beta was STILL micro effective, because with good burrows and control you could beat a bigger army, though it wasn't very easy and that MU was very stale then. ZvZ is insanely tactical, though the lack of scoutability really hurts the MU imo.
TvT too is all about control. Good tank placement and use of sight modifiers (towers, scans, floating buildings, air, etc.) enables tanks to kill many other tanks. That's why tanks are the most important unit - they allow you to gain an advantage over your opponent through mechanical skill and tactics.
I thought the breaker for that in PvP was the colossus, but it really isn't. Colossi do not benefit from control at all. In fact, colossi are the epitome of a-move. You gain much more benefit in fights by microing your stalkers/immos to FF, or using sentries more effectively. Speaking of sentries, force field in theory should be the solution, but it's not because you just can't defend your natural with fewer units through sentry micro. You can't expand so you can never gain an advantage through sentry use unless you're fighting a push up your ramp.
I think protoss needs a micro-intensive unit again like the reaver. I don't want to say the colossus < reaver, but I do think without a micro-intensive unit PvP will remain broken, and you have to admit that's what the reaver was.
Currently the temptation to Proxy-Gateway every single PvP to end it quickly the one or other way is huge, at least for me, because this Matchup is just stupid. "Oh look, you tried to get away with no all in. You lost <3"
I know that im a few of my replays and games I go straight stalkers vs X gateway zealots and I am almost always safe because of some epic walling with walltight gateways.
This all seems kind of sad to me, and if the game truly evolves into this, I'll stop playing.
If I see someone with two gates and no gas, I'll throw down my forge and build two cannons at the ramp. That usually stops or discourages the initial zealot rush, and then I can sit back and build something more interesting than just a zealot production race.
If you think my solution isn't good enough, or no other solution is good enough to put a stop to the two gate proxy cheese or 4 gate zealot pump which wins 90% of games, then why on Earth do you keep playing? It's like, "HA! you were 2 seconds behind on putting down your second gateway, which means I had an extra zealot for 2 seconds, and I WIN! Yes! Yes!"
If that's all it comes down to, there are a lot of other games out there, you know...
On July 22 2010 10:46 Kime wrote: This all seems kind of sad to me, and if the game truly evolves into this, I'll stop playing.
If I see someone with two gates and no gas, I'll throw down my forge and build two cannons at the ramp. That usually stops or discourages the initial zealot rush, and then I can sit back and build something more interesting than just a zealot production race.
If you think my solution isn't good enough, or no other solution is good enough to put a stop to the two gate proxy cheese or 4 gate zealot pump which wins 90% of games, then why on Earth do you keep playing? It's like, "HA! you were 2 seconds behind on putting down your second gateway, which means I had an extra zealot for 2 seconds, and I WIN! Yes! Yes!"
If that's all it comes down to, there are a lot of other games out there, you know...
Try it yourself when the game is out. If it doesn't work, try to improve on it. That's why you play this game. That's the fun part :D
If you're going to build cannons against the "4 Warpgate Proxy Pylon" though don't put them at your choke. If that probe gets in before it goes down you just wasted 150 minerals.
I just thought it was awesome Tozar posted second. I basically learned one of the best ways to do a 4 gate into aggressive proxy pylon from his replays against Huk and others.
This build has been made a bit weaker, and there have been multiple times where I'm building a proxy pylon as I'm killing one in my own base. I think it's just funny, we usually both end up living, favoring our own base warps a little too much, and losing all our proxies. I could understand how you could find this a bit bland, no worries, once retail hits I'm sure something else will become dreadfully common in the 4gates stead.
Then hopefully people will use 4 gate for something else besides timing attacks. Notice how often the 4 gate is called "All in" compared to the 3 gate Robo. Having an additional gate is actually safer in some ways than getting robo, yet the 4 gates nature is objectively seen as all-in aggression, and I'm pretty sure this will evolve with time as well.
Think about using the 4 gate to expand against a bio Terran, better than trying it with 3 gate robo imo. ~300 Diamond peace peace
I think that the way for blizzard to balance this(and make better presentations to viewers of games) is to bring back the 1 building that let Tempest defeat Light in BW. *insert epic music here* The Shield Battery!
Vod:
This recharges shields and lets 1 unit defeat more units of the same kind. Especially since if the 4 warp gate rush has to add a shield battery to keep up, units have to keep retreating to the shield battery which will most likely be away from the opponet's shield battery by a good distance. I don't see how this would imbalance other MUs either.
info for non-BW players: The shield battery has 200 shield and 200 armor and starts off with 100energy and 200 max energy. Its like the medivac/medic in that it costs energy to heal unit's shields.
It can be used to great affect as support against a rush or cheese with a higher production count(like we are talking about here). I don't see any other way to keep PvP from being worse than ZvZ in BW. Plus, it might help a lot against future strategies too. Please show me how this wouldn't fix the MU if u think it won't.
What you describe is infact strong, and there are only approximately about 3 ways to deal with it.
Personally in PvP early scout and go 12 gate. You'll know if someones going 10gate to fast warp gate pretty fast.
(Now to counter the 'super' early 4 gate all in): First off, always Scout. When you see the 10gate you should expect it to be a 4gate.
Counter #1: Chrono boost your first zealot, but don't impede your core build. You still want it asap. Send a probe to follow/attack their scouting probe. It is worth it to see if they put a pylon. If they do, then that is what your zealot is for. Throw down your second gateway early. Save your chrono boosts for a stalker to dispatch of his probe, then zealots after the stalker to deal with the pylons. Your first zealot should be far completed before he throws down any pylons, so just chase his probe until he does.
If done correctly you should be able to continue producing units from your initial 2 gateways and dispatch of his pylons, crippling and nullifying his rush. However... depending on map you'll need to figure our what you're going to do. So sentry stalker on ramp while teching, or getting a cannon are both options.
Counter #2: Obviously scout. If positions are close or it's a map like steppes of war when you see the 10 gate throw down a second gateway after you see his gateway. I personally like to use my scouting probe and proxy 2 additional gateways either right inside of his base, or right outside. If he's any good he will know what you are doing but it wont matter, as his economy is suffering from the 10 gate, and not to mention hurting even further from the assimilator or cybercore if he already got it. So 3 gate mass zealot, 1 in main, 2 proxied - even IF he gets stalkers, you'll have a superior amount of units and be able to attack/harass his probe line and eventually win.
-----------
in response to the shield battery post, the attacker will just use them as well.
PvP is fine at top level in sc2. If you're losing to cheese you just need to adapt.
EPT
