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On July 23 2010 02:19 Xanatoss wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 02:05 Bibdy wrote:
Normally you've got about two full minutes to kill the Pylons, but if they felt the need to drop FOUR at once, you've got a huge lead on his unit count. Its at that moment they need to start placing down Gateways as well, in order for their 65 second build time to coincide with the completion of Chrono-boosted Warp Gate tech. Spending so many minerals at that point sets you back enormously.
You can simply cancel pylons which going to be destroyed right before and lose just 25 Minerals per Pylon.
They only take 23 seconds to make. He isn't even going to have a Zealot out at that time, just the Stalker. You're definitely going to have to let them finish, because your Probe is doomed. There's a Stalker chasing it!
Its not the say the build doesn't work all the time, just against 2-gate pressure and fast Stalkers, which are like 90% of the PvPs I play. Any kind of econ build (e.g. 13-gate) is probably going to get rocked, which is why I favour 10-gate builds and very early aggression.
I just go for 2-gate pressure myself right now because there doesn't seem to be any point hoping that my opponent won't. Its a very strong opening and there doesn't seem to be any disadvantage to it. You take the fight to his mineral line and force him to pull Probes. If he tries to go for a Stalker, he's pretty much doomed unless its a large map and if he matches your Zealot count, you just run off and go for plan B. Better to threaten him into reacting and potentially forcing him to pull Probes than hope he won't do the exact same thing to you.
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On July 23 2010 02:05 Bibdy wrote:
Normally you've got about two full minutes to kill the Pylons, but if they felt the need to drop FOUR at once, you've got a huge lead on his unit count.
Something is wrong here. How can you have 2 minutes to kill the pylons? I have a feeling the build is not executed properly. Are you chronoboosting your warpgate research nonstop? Are you pulling probes from gas after getting 50 for warp. Of course he has a huge lead on your unit count, you don't build ANY units until it's time to warp in.
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back - you say that you do it if you don't scout a 2 gate - why do you stop if it is a two gate? can't you warp in enough units to wreck the 2 gate?
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On July 23 2010 02:40 Back wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 02:05 Bibdy wrote:
Normally you've got about two full minutes to kill the Pylons, but if they felt the need to drop FOUR at once, you've got a huge lead on his unit count. Something is wrong here. How can you have 2 minutes to kill the pylons? I have a feeling the build is not executed properly. Are you chronoboosting your warpgate nonstop? Are you pulling probes from gas after getting 50 for warp. Of course he has a huge lead on your unit count, you don't build ANY units until it's time to warp in.
Fast Stalker and this strat are basically the same build order up until the Core. 10-Gate, 13-Assimilator, 15ish-Core. So if his Warp Gate tech (140) starts off at the same time as your Stalker (42), there's a 100 second difference there. 100 seconds to kill the Probe and any resulting Pylons.
Okay, so quite a bit less than 2 minutes, but still it doesn't take too long to kill the Probe, pump out a couple of Zealots and start killing Pylons.
You can only really afford to make about two Pylons without setting yourself back on Gateway construction. Any more and you start pushing back "Warp-in time", giving him more time to kill the Pylons and you have to fall back on a 3 or 4-gate push or try to work something else in. You aren't going to do much damage warping in 2 units against two Zealots and a Stalker (and possibly more) he's got waiting for you.
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On July 23 2010 02:42 redwingxviii wrote:
back - you say that you do it if you don't scout a 2 gate - why do you stop if it is a two gate? can't you warp in enough units to wreck the 2 gate?
Faaaack no. Zealots will start smashing down your Gateways and Pylons long before Warp Gate tech is done.
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On July 23 2010 02:42 redwingxviii wrote:
back - you say that you do it if you don't scout a 2 gate - why do you stop if it is a two gate? can't you warp in enough units to wreck the 2 gate?
I just assume he will be aggressive with his two gates. Early aggression is frightning when you don't build units before warp gates and you need all your chronoboosts for the core.
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On July 23 2010 02:25 Bibdy wrote:
They only take 23 seconds to make. He isn't even going to have a Zealot out at that time, just the Stalker. You're definitely going to have to let them finish, because your Probe is doomed. There's a Stalker chasing it!
Just approximated: He got his core about 24 sec earlier with 10 Gate than a 12 Gate Core. A CB Stalker still lasts 32sec to produce, you have to take account for the time the stalker needs to actually kill the probe while a CB Warpgate-Tech needs 70-80sec (I am not familiar with the particular possible CB-Counts) to be researched.
Therefore is a timing window of maximal 14(24) sec between killing the probe and destroying all 4 pylons (which oc are not clumped at one spot rather than spread around your base making it even harder to get them down in time) it has placed and as you mentioned yourself, a pylon takes 23 sec to build, so there is plenty of time to cancel.
Edit: Should have mentioned I was talking about 12 Gate Openings.
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but if you block your ramp - early aggression is less frightening right?
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On July 23 2010 02:54 redwingxviii wrote:
but if you block your ramp - early aggression is less frightening right?
Without a stalker on the other side of the wall, it's just free pylons no? If he powers down my gateway OR my core it's definitely game over.
I've never really tried, mind you. I'm just a chicken.
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Technically you can get Warp Gate tech done in 93 seconds tops, but that's 5 straight Chrono-Boosts, so your economy won't be doing great and you probably won't have the minerals to build the 2-3 Gates you need to build 30 seconds after you start the Tech. The trick is coinciding the completion of the Gateways with the completion of Warp Gate Tech and I think you really have to spend some Chrono Boosts on Probes to pull that off optimally. I'm willing to bet good money that if you try to do that, there's no way you're going to have 4, or possibly even 3 Gateways ready for its completion, especially when you start constructing on 10 food.
In the same way, you can get a Stalker out in 28 seconds (followed by a couple of Zealots, so you aren't going to be wasting that second CB if you do double it up like that).
The Probe really doesn't live very long. If you save it to the last second to start plopping down Pylons (giving you the capability of cancelling them if you need to) by only placing them when the Stalker is about to pop out, you can't really get four down that easily. Its a bit of a gamble. After all, every time it places a Pylon it stops moving, giving the Stalker an easy shot. The Stalker can't even kill the first Pylon in 23 seconds, so there's really no need to cancel beyond the first one. Better to just let it finish and give him more health to chew through, giving you more time to set up your Warp Gates before it finishes the last one.
I still assert that its not an easy thing to pull off. I tried it a lot, because its fun, but its just not very dependable and 2-gate pushes are even more frustrating.
All in all, I think it kind of goes like this
2 Gate Push > Warp-In rush == Fast Stalker > econ build
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The first question to ask is whether defender advantage is maintained if both players do this build but one decides to defend. If you can successfully defend with mirror BO it would seem that lets you pull ahead... they lost their pylons. I think the aggressive player is favoured though, because in a strict mirror where you warp in your zealots at home to defend, your gateways are running on one or maybe two pylons (assuming both players proxy'd their other pylons), and if you lose gateway power you're toast. It'd be too difficult to defend your minerals and your pylon(s). That settled, what if both players do the build, except one decides to build pylons at home upon deciding to defend? In this case I see the defender having a clear advantage: both players have identical zealot production, but the onus is on the attacker to DO something because eventually he'll lose his pylons. In addition, the defender has probes to use, which shouldn't be underestimated in zealot fights properly micro'd.
Since this 4warp proxy rush starts out as a 10 gate, which gives you the opportunity to diverge towards more "standard" builds before pulling the trigger on rushing warp research, and you send a fast scout anyway, shouldn't this be the "standard" build until both players see each other setting up for it, at which point they should choose to be defensive? Then you just have a normal 1 base game, which I find isn't as bad as the complaints insist.
To reiterate for clarity: to defend against the rush, just do the rush, except keep it at home. If they aren't doing the rush, rush them. Then, if both players see the rush setup, they'll both stay home, and you don't have a dumb game all the time.
edit:
+ Show Spoiler +
Regarding the tester - huk game in KotB: the reason tester was so successful was because huk didn't know about the pylon in the south of his base. He kept his units near the other pylons that he could see, where warping zealots would have been severely chewed up before fully warped. The first wave was entirely untouched and unanticipated, and it went downhill from there. A normal base check for pylons would have helped a lot.
edit 2:
I find zealot micro to be highly skillful and entertaining. I find pining for reavers to be a bit... limited.
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trying to incorporate this with sentry hallucination so that i dont need to sneak probe and warp hidden pylons in the enemy base, i can just warp pylon under the cliff and hallucinate a flyier in order to warp up to the cliff, but it delays everything for 1 min 30 secs and timings become even tighter, economy a little bit worse, and u need sentry very early in order to accumulate 100 energy
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On July 21 2010 07:22 Anon06 wrote:
@ plexa i have a simple solution to this. deny the scout entry to ur base. how you say? simple build two gates or one gate one cyber core at your entrance ( i prefer two gates as it tricks them into thinking your're going to zealot rush and puts them on d + your core can't get sniped) and have a probe hold position in the small gap like you would a zealot. if it does get in before you build those chrono boost a stalker asap and take out the probe. you can also build ur wall with one gate one pylon but the pylon can get sniped there later in the game.
And then the other player just clicks on the mineral patches in your base and the probe goes right thru your blocking probe... How can you not know that workers get ghostwalking when they mine? :|
also @plexa
Can't load your replays(says the version is not available) and never heard of "scswitcher.exe", searched for it on google and on the TL boards both with 0 results, could you be a bit more specific? =)
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From 20-30 PvP games I've played so far in release (not a lot, but my internet was out for the first 2 days the game was out), I think all but 1 have been either this 4 warp, pylon drop attack or an early 2 gate zealot rush.
It seems 9 pylon, 13 gate econ build is pretty much obsolete now, at least until a reliable counter is found that uses 9 pylon, 13 gate (if one is even possible) so I've basically adopted a policy of 2 gate zealot rush on smaller maps, and this 4 warpgate pylon drop on larger maps. I really don't see any other viable build at the moment except for maybe some funky realistically unviable forge-first build.
@Nihilnovi
Im not sure if its in the release since I'm not at home and can't check, but scswitcher.exe should be in the starcraft 2 folder, its the program that loads a new Starcraft 2 copy when you try to run a replay from an older patch
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My friend's neighbor just showed me this build and it's incredible just how effective this strategy is. He tells me he's only a 600 diamond player because of PvP and he beats 90% of the players just by doing this strategy. Needless to say, it's very difficult to stop.
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I wall off my base and just cannon my entrance and leave a probe outside to scout and build my natural when I need it. Protects me against 3 gate zealot all-ins and the korean 4 warpgate.
As for an acutal build.. pfftt I got so sick of rock-paper-scissors for PvP mid-game that I just fuking cannon rush my opponent then get a fast void ray. If the cannons don't kill him then his tech will be so ass-backwards that he won't have a single stalker to deal with the void rays.
been working so far 
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here is a cute way to counter 4 warpgate with ur own 4 warp gate which i have tried..nt sure how effective is it but i had some sucess with it.. So as the build go build a zealot first whenever you have the money and try to kill off the probe but any good protoss would not let the probe die so just park it outside his base or somewhere near and hidden..a korean warpgate rush means he will skip stalker and zealot and then throws down pylons in your base since you had ur zealot first your warpgate would surely be slower then his by like 5s or so depending on you and your enemy chrono boost on core*(Things such as using it late on core,forgetting or using too much of probes which usually wont happen to and good toss)*..Just as his warp in 4 zealots to your main get your hero zealot and go harass his probes he should have no army in his base he either use all his probes to attack your zealot or just do nothing or use half his workers either way try to keep harassing and keep the zealot alive. Now back to your base you warp in 4 zealot of your own and fight his zealot with the help of your probes which you would win..but his zealot would be there first so try not to lose as much probes as possible before your own 4 zealot warp in. So either way now he lose mining time/lose probes leading to a fail rush. i find this a lot better then trading base IMO.
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On August 24 2010 01:57 RAeaLem wrote:
here is a cute way to counter 4 warpgate with ur own 4 warp gate which i have tried..nt sure how effective is it but i had some sucess with it.. So as the build go build a zealot first whenever you have the money and try to kill off the probe but any good protoss would not let the probe die so just park it outside his base or somewhere near and hidden..a korean warpgate rush means he will skip stalker and zealot and then throws down pylons in your base since you had ur zealot first your warpgate would surely be slower then his by like 5s or so depending on you and your enemy chrono boost on core*(Things such as using it late on core,forgetting or using too much of probes which usually wont happen to and good toss)*..Just as his warp in 4 zealots to your main get your hero zealot and go harass his probes he should have no army in his base he either use all his probes to attack your zealot or just do nothing or use half his workers either way try to keep harassing and keep the zealot alive. Now back to your base you warp in 4 zealot of your own and fight his zealot with the help of your probes which you would win..but his zealot would be there first so try not to lose as much probes as possible before your own 4 zealot warp in. So either way now he lose mining time/lose probes leading to a fail rush. i find this a lot better then trading base IMO.
A better method would be to use the extra zealot to distract his zealots by running around your own mineral field without attacking as you warp 4 zealots in to kill HIS economy. That way if he wants to kill anything he has to focus fire. That's usually what I do when both players go Korean 4 warpgate and I typically end up with a 1-2 zealot advantage.
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On July 29 2010 14:07 Rhodan wrote:
From 20-30 PvP games I've played so far in release (not a lot, but my internet was out for the first 2 days the game was out), I think all but 1 have been either this 4 warp, pylon drop attack or an early 2 gate zealot rush.
It seems 9 pylon, 13 gate econ build is pretty much obsolete now, at least until a reliable counter is found that uses 9 pylon, 13 gate (if one is even possible) so I've basically adopted a policy of 2 gate zealot rush on smaller maps, and this 4 warpgate pylon drop on larger maps. I really don't see any other viable build at the moment except for maybe some funky realistically unviable forge-first build.
@Nihilnovi
Im not sure if its in the release since I'm not at home and can't check, but scswitcher.exe should be in the starcraft 2 folder, its the program that loads a new Starcraft 2 copy when you try to run a replay from an older patch
I think a dual-stalker build might work well (9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 15 gate 15 core 16 pylon, chrono 2 stalkers when gate/core/pylon all finish roughly the same time) as having two stalkers at the ramp can kill the scouting probe fast enough it should only be able to warp in one pylon, if any. If you scout on the 9 pylon you can change gears if your opponent is going 2 gate zealot rush.
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EPT
