I have play a lot of PvP recently and i realize how CHEESY this match up currently is. there is no longer rock paper scissor but mostly getting 4 gates rush wrap stack up resources and spam proxy pylons IN the enymy base. Pylons are strong enough that if your try to tech normally, your couple of stalker/zealots basicly cant kill 4 of them fast enough so wrap fest into middle of your base and crush you early.
im really frustrated bc on some map like scrap station or DO where the ground army takes time to reach the other base, this strat is too strong that it happen almost 100% everygame. I want to know more on the build order of this strat and how to counter this.
also, this has been used by the korean since the start of Beta!
Thread on this build order I don't think it is overpowered anymore, but it is strong against 12-13 gate builds. Just focus on making units and killing your opponent's units. Don't stop mining and don't get supply blocked.
EDIT: Some detailed tips: -Scout properly. Warning signs include: no units after cybernetics, heavily chronoboosted warpgate, possibly removing probes from gas -Maintain production. Don't power all your warp gates on one pylon. You should get at least 3 gates when you scout this build. -Kill the probe. You can throw off your opponent's timing by killing his scouting probe early. If you kill it before it builds 4 pylons, you might be able to destroy all of the pylons before his warpgate tech finishes. -Attack the first wave of units as they warp in. That little head start can go a long way. -Do not attack with all of your workers. If there are four pylons don't attack the pylon with workers, you will have units warping into your base. Sending all your probes to defend is wasteful and cuts in to your mining time, preventing you from warping in units. If you need to use workers to attack to gain an advantage, use no more than 5 because that's usually the most that can attack at a time anyway. The instant you pull all your probes off the minerals is the moment you've lost the game. -Use stalkers, and keep them alive. Chances are your opponent has cut back on gas to pull this off. Stalkers are easier to micro and having enough of them will grant you an advantage eventually. Sentries are pretty useless in this situation unless you see an opportunity to trap his zealots somewhere, or if you are very low on minerals.
On July 19 2010 10:14 NB wrote: I have play a lot of PvP recently and i realize how CHEESY this match up currently is. there is no longer rock paper scissor but mostly getting 4 gates rush wrap stack up resources and spam proxy pylons IN the enymy base. Pylons are strong enough that if your try to tech normally, your couple of stalker/zealots basicly cant kill 4 of them fast enough so wrap fest into middle of your base and crush you early.
im really frustrated bc on some map like scrap station or DO where the ground army takes time to reach the other base, this strat is too strong that it happen almost 100% everygame. I want to know more on the build order of this strat and how to counter this.
also, this has been used by the korean since the start of Beta!
Block + Kill probe. Probes have less health than pylons still right? What is it... 4 stalker shots... if your trying to kill all the pylons he makes while letting a 40hp probe run around, well then may I suggest Candyland.
I don't understand, where is your army while he's putting pylons in your base?
Shouldn't you be able to beat him easily if he spends 400 minerals on proxy pylons and you spend it on units instead? Not to mention units warping in get demolished. Is he warping in DTs or something?
Don't let trash run around in your base. These days, I almost always make a zealot and then a stalker as soon as possible. He can't get warpgates before you get your stalker, so kill the probe in your base with your stalker (chrono boost if necessary) and gun down any pylons he may have built.
I think PvP is stupid in general. I'm 400~ ELO Diamond and I still win the majority of my PvP games by either going 4 gate Stalkers (with a little variation in the standard BO to get a one-up on Stalkers) on maps without tight ramps/chokes or 2 gate Robo on maps with tight ramps (reasoning behind this is that I pump out Sentries to spam FF on my ramp while I pump out enough Immortals to hard counter his Stalkers with the support of my Sentries/Stalkers/Probes (a few, if need be).
I actually had a game where my opponent and I did the exact same thing. It was a literal mirror match on LT - 2 gate Robo with Sentries to wall off. He actually made an Observer which should have given me the upper hand but unfortunately I forgot about one Immortal and left it in my base for around 5-10 minutes. Anyway, what ended up happening was we both engaged in the middle, we both had a few Immortals with some excellent FFs pretty much obliterating each other's Immortals (and funnily enough, Sentries). We both brought a Probe and made proxy pylons in the middle of the map, a bit closer to their base (cross position). We then spammed 4 gate warp ins with the occasional Immortal when our money let us. We then incorporated Zealots to kill each other's Immortals and with sufficient micro, the Immortals would die but so would the Zealots. It literally became a back and forth stalemate situation where neither player could expand nor switch tech lest he be overrun. The end conclusion? He dropped. Yes, I know, how anticlimactic.
Long story short: PvP is stupid. It either becomes 4 gate rush with the slight variation of Robo. Blink Stalkers prevent any creative sort of play involving static D and expanding is just not an option. As much as I love blink, it needs serious re-working.
Oh and my little variation is (if I'm doing 4 gate and not 2 gate Robo) to skip the first gas and use the minerals to build a second Gateway while Core is building. Then pump out Stalkers and harass (maybe get a free kill or two), delay warp gate by a tiny bit to get your Stalkers out and the second gas up around/a little before you put down the next two Gates. You might have to skimp on the probe production just a little but at most you'll be behind by 2 probes which you can catch up on by CB'ing your probes/Stalkers. Since your opponent will most likely be boosting his warp gate, you can catch up on probes and overrun his Stalker count. The logic behind this is that warp gate doesn't actually accelerate your Stalker production, it essentially lets you skip a production cycle regardless of when it's finished but that shouldn't matter since you have a few extra Stalkers anyway.
I was thinking, if you scout this coming, would it be a good idea to get a forge+cannon at your choke? Forge builds faster than a gateway and you should be able to get a cannon up faster than you would a stalker. With cannons plus your ground army you should be able to hold your ramp. Assuming you kept producing probes and your opponent cut probes, you should be economically ahead and you can go robo tech as you turtle.
scout it by: - noticing it's a 10 gate - noticing he's saving chronos
respond by: - follow a probe on his probe to make sure you don't miss any pylons. - zealot before 2nd gas, chrono stalker. kill all pylons with zealot and stalker.
you will be able to kill all his pylons in good time before his wg is finished.
There is always the possibility of another probe coming in to put new pylons up while your units are dealing with the other pylons. In that case, you better be prepared. 4 gate is recommended, but you can get by on three if you use them efficiently.
This is insanely hard to hold. The first guy who did it to me had a build down so that it worked so fast and efficiently that it was literally impossible to kill the probe before he started pylons. http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Warpgate1.sc2replay
Noting this, I bastardised his build and tried to use a similar version I made up on the the fly. The result? Exactly the same as before - he couldn't kill my probe before the pylons started warping in. And then he couldn't kill the probe. http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Warpgate2.sc2replay
I don't see how you can beat this using straight up 1 gate play =/ I mean, even if you kill the probe and are able to shut down the pylons - there's no way you'll be able to do that without dedicating tons of probes to bring them down. Then I can just laugh and chrono some probes out and catch up in economy. Since I already have a core I'm not behind in tech either. Stupidly good build imo.
ya, this build is tough to beat if you don't know it's coming. If you have the timing down right, a chrono boosted stalker may not save you, depending on the distance of the probe and your rally point. It's literally that tight. Once the pylons go up, you are pretty much fucked because warp gates can outproduce gateways badly and if he kills enough probes, you can't come back.
there is nothing hard about beating this once you actually put some effort in with a practice partner. You don't need to pull any probes except the first one to follow him around.
On July 19 2010 22:11 FortuneSyn wrote: there is nothing hard about beating this once you actually put some effort in with a practice partner. You don't need to pull any probes except the first one to follow him around.
I would like to see some replays, since the timings you cited above seem to be cutting it a bit thin. Equally, this isn't very hard to scout, there are many many obvious tells (like you correctly point out) yet I dont see how you stop the probe from putting down three pylons in your base. Even with zeal/stalker you're not going to kill all three before the warps start coming in.
EDIT: watched Tozar game and I think it demonstrates why this build is so good . Firstly, the initial pylons were poorly positioned making his initial zealots attack from an inferior position. Better positioned they could have done a lot more damage imo. Secondly, Tozar was able to kill a significant number of probes and indeed came out ahead after the initial exchange. Despite defending the 4warpgate, his opponent was still behind. And that really is the power of the build.
What about walling off? 10 gate chronoboosted zealot and the pylon/gateway blocking the entrance. That way he can't send in a probe to start the warp-in. If he gets a scout in, you can usually micro your probes to kill it and if not, chrono a stalker to take it out.
On July 19 2010 22:29 deth2munkies wrote: What about walling off? 10 gate chronoboosted zealot and the pylon/gateway blocking the entrance. That way he can't send in a probe to start the warp-in. If he gets a scout in, you can usually micro your probes to kill it and if not, chrono a stalker to take it out.
I'd just order the probe to mine the minerals your main. The probe will float over the zealot (if you're able to get it out in time, which i doubt) and proceed to lay pylons.
There are some ways to slow the opponent down a bit if you want to semi-wall off your base, leaving a small slit for either a zealot or two (the key being to stop the probe before he gets in). Even threatening a quick 2-gate sometimes forces the opponent to mirror you, but you're really trading one type of 4 gate play for another at that point: inside your base vs outside (and there are times where I'd prefer my opponent to sack resources inside my base).
I do find the 4 gate really annoying as a P player, but Tozar's got some great tips against it.
On July 19 2010 12:01 youngminii wrote: I think PvP is stupid in general. I'm 400~ ELO Diamond and I still win the majority of my PvP games by either going 4 gate Stalkers (with a little variation in the standard BO to get a one-up on Stalkers) on maps without tight ramps/chokes or 2 gate Robo on maps with tight ramps (reasoning behind this is that I pump out Sentries to spam FF on my ramp while I pump out enough Immortals to hard counter his Stalkers with the support of my Sentries/Stalkers/Probes (a few, if need be).
I actually had a game where my opponent and I did the exact same thing. It was a literal mirror match on LT - 2 gate Robo with Sentries to wall off. He actually made an Observer which should have given me the upper hand but unfortunately I forgot about one Immortal and left it in my base for around 5-10 minutes. Anyway, what ended up happening was we both engaged in the middle, we both had a few Immortals with some excellent FFs pretty much obliterating each other's Immortals (and funnily enough, Sentries). We both brought a Probe and made proxy pylons in the middle of the map, a bit closer to their base (cross position). We then spammed 4 gate warp ins with the occasional Immortal when our money let us. We then incorporated Zealots to kill each other's Immortals and with sufficient micro, the Immortals would die but so would the Zealots. It literally became a back and forth stalemate situation where neither player could expand nor switch tech lest he be overrun. The end conclusion? He dropped. Yes, I know, how anticlimactic.
Long story short: PvP is stupid. It either becomes 4 gate rush with the slight variation of Robo. Blink Stalkers prevent any creative sort of play involving static D and expanding is just not an option. As much as I love blink, it needs serious re-working.
Oh and my little variation is (if I'm doing 4 gate and not 2 gate Robo) to skip the first gas and use the minerals to build a second Gateway while Core is building. Then pump out Stalkers and harass (maybe get a free kill or two), delay warp gate by a tiny bit to get your Stalkers out and the second gas up around/a little before you put down the next two Gates. You might have to skimp on the probe production just a little but at most you'll be behind by 2 probes which you can catch up on by CB'ing your probes/Stalkers. Since your opponent will most likely be boosting his warp gate, you can catch up on probes and overrun his Stalker count. The logic behind this is that warp gate doesn't actually accelerate your Stalker production, it essentially lets you skip a production cycle regardless of when it's finished but that shouldn't matter since you have a few extra Stalkers anyway.
This is so true. The sad part is, it feels like 90% of the Diamond games we play are PvPs. I hate the matchup. Ends up being so close, so back and forth, so mirrored...
I think the only matchup I dislike more than PvP is TvT. I find any attempt to tech results in proxy 4 gate death, any attempt to 4gate results in identical armies that can't kill each other, the first to expand insta-dies, and any attempt to do something different (ie 3gate phoenix) just flat out loses. I think I've had 3 games in the past week where we both just ran out of minerals because neither could expand. Just complete stalemates.
On July 20 2010 01:28 cauchy.riemann wrote: Hmm i cant watch the replays of Plexa, any other replays? Would be much appreciated
I have a feeling this might be to do with EU-US conflict? I dont know of any other reason why you wouldn't be able to watch maybe because you dont have the US maps? just EU versions? I don't know...
I think that the majority of people posting here saying it's easy to stop don't know the actual build or haven't seen it in a game before. It's entirely possible to micro a probe around the enemy Protoss base from the beginning of the game all the way up until warpgates is about finished. Just as warpgates is about to finish you throw down 4 separated pylons and the enemy will not be able to take them down before you can warp in units. Then you continue to warp in units and they have to deal with both taking your units out AND taking out the pylons. Sure, they can get a quick stalker to deal with the probe running around their base but if that happens, the probe can just chuck down the pylons slightly earlier. He still won't be able to take all 4 down before you can warp in units.
as far as i remember, i have met this build 4 times at least.
it goes like: gate cyber pylon -> 18 supply -> gate gate gate with chrono wrap and NO 2ND GAS!!!
you have your probes around the enemy base and build 4 PYLONS when wrap almost finish. you should be able to wrap in 4 zealots and chrono your wrap gates as fast as possible => by the time you get 4 zealots in the other base, the guy only has at most 2 zealots and 1 stalker with wrap tech almost finish at 2 gates. => almost impossible to hold. you can kill 1 pylons but 4, its IMPOSSIBLE. the guy build EVERYTHING at 18 supplies and stack up minerals for wrapgates. this build is not vulnerable to 2 gates zealots since you should know its coming with your scout. i even cheesed vs a guy who tried to do this once and it turns out to be a normal base trade but its stupid.
the key i find out is: + his base is almost empty for most of the game, any zealots would kill that. + we lose mostly bc we try to build probes + having 2nd gas, also down on gates if you hold the first wrap wave. + really dont know what happen if both guys going this strat vs each others. + pulling probes to support stalker is the worst idea but stalker in small numer (1-3) cant win zealots as they split out to attack minerals line + stalker as the same time. + in case you are matching the gates count, zealots is a good option but micro is hard considering he is willing to trade his army to your mineral lines. +by the time your 1st stalker comes out (chrono boosted), he will imidiately through down 4 pylons such that you might kill his scout but wont stop the rush. remember this happen at HIS 18 supply so he has LOTs of resources stacked up. +not sure how early the gate could be but it can be a normal 12 gate 17 cyber but 10 gate early cyber would be super powerfull.
+ finaly: i still cannot find an 90% success build vs this even though i have looked through other threads, i cant access to replays u guy posted atm since beta is down .. will find sm launcher asap PLEASE READ THIS: DO not talk about robo since this strat comes to you ate the mark wrap gates finished which NO robo could have finish producing anything. THIS is not a normal 4 gates all in but 4 wrap gate proxy pylon korean style, if you dont know about it, look it up!
I usually go either blinkstalkers or 3g + robo in PvP.
With 3 gates + twilight council you should be able to fend off a 4g push just fine and with the 3g robo some immortals will do the job.
With blinkstalkers, I add a robo eventually for observers. If im aggressive (attacking with my first one or two stalkers even) i often win early. Since the TC is already up, one can go over to charge zlots. This is the tactic White-ra uses in PvP, watch Day[9] daily 147 (i believe).
On July 20 2010 21:45 ab0x wrote: I usually go either blinkstalkers or 3g + robo in PvP.
With 3 gates + twilight council you should be able to fend off a 4g push just fine and with the 3g robo some immortals will do the job.
With blinkstalkers, I add a robo eventually for observers. If im aggressive (attacking with my first one or two stalkers even) i often win early. Since the TC is already up, one can go over to charge zlots. This is the tactic White-ra uses in PvP, watch Day[9] daily 147 (i believe).
Did you even read the thread? Or just blindly charge on through without any care for the discussion what so ever? This is about a 4gate korean style warpgate rush not a 4gate push.
On July 20 2010 21:45 ab0x wrote: I usually go either blinkstalkers or 3g + robo in PvP.
With 3 gates + twilight council you should be able to fend off a 4g push just fine and with the 3g robo some immortals will do the job.
With blinkstalkers, I add a robo eventually for observers. If im aggressive (attacking with my first one or two stalkers even) i often win early. Since the TC is already up, one can go over to charge zlots. This is the tactic White-ra uses in PvP, watch Day[9] daily 147 (i believe).
Did you even read the thread? Or just blindly charge on through without any care for the discussion what so ever? This is about a 4gate korean style warpgate rush not a 4gate push.
If there had been a blushing smiley here, i'd use it now.
On July 20 2010 22:16 Serenitylol wrote: What is the exact build order for this right up until 4 warps are done same time.. Just so i can maybe practice it..?
Unlike a normal protoss build, you're not using chrono unless I say so 9 pylon 10 gate, scout with probe 10 probe+chrono 13 gas 15 core (gas should finish about now, add three probes to it, once you have 50 gas cut probes - start taking them off at 44 gas) Keep probing to 18 When cycore is done start warpgate immediately and continuously chrono it (you will be able to continuously chrono despite having used one chrono earlier) 18 - gate gate gate When warpgate tech is 75% complete start warping in pylons in his main (ideally 3-4 spread out, players tend to do it near mineral lines)
Given that you've continuously chrono'd the warpgate everything will finish at pretty much the same time. Then just make warpgates and warp in zealots for an easy victory
On July 20 2010 22:16 Serenitylol wrote: What is the exact build order for this right up until 4 warps are done same time.. Just so i can maybe practice it..?
Unlike a normal protoss build, you're not using chrono unless I say so 9 pylon 10 gate, scout with probe 10 probe+chrono 13 gas 15 core (gas should finish about now, add three probes to it, once you have 50 gas cut probes - start taking them off at 44 gas) Keep probing to 18 When cycore is done start warpgate immediately and continuously chrono it (you will be able to continuously chrono despite having used one chrono earlier) 18 - gate gate gate When warpgate tech is 75% complete start warping in pylons in his main (ideally 3-4 spread out, players tend to do it near mineral lines)
Given that you've continuously chrono'd the warpgate everything will finish at pretty much the same time. Then just make warpgates and warp in zealots for an easy victory
if you 10 gates its better with 10 pylon F.Y.I. the rest are mostly what he said, only 1 chrono on probes and save the rest for wrap/gates
also, 1st wav is zealots and 2nd waves are stalker + zealots 3rd could be all stalker if you get 2nd gas in the middle.
this works only in PvP since probe survive unlti the cyber finish and stalker comes out => almost impossible to stop proxy pylons. other match up probe scout can be killed easily.
meh, i've never really had too much trouble with this build, though it is a very powerful build. I try to kill all the pylons before they finish with my probes, or even better, when they've finished and are warping in zealots . and i try to kill their probe that's warping them in with my 1st stalker. After that i can usually defend from other outside proxy pylons near my natural.
EDIT: watched Tozar game and I think it demonstrates why this build is so good . Firstly, the initial pylons were poorly positioned making his initial zealots attack from an inferior position. Better positioned they could have done a lot more damage imo. Secondly, Tozar was able to kill a significant number of probes and indeed came out ahead after the initial exchange. Despite defending the 4warpgate, his opponent was still behind. And that really is the power of the build.
I agree. That replay doesn't really show how to beat the proxy pylons. It shows how to beat an opponent who loses it a little after his proxy fails. When the proxy was finally pushed off, Tozar (the attacking/proxying protoss) was WAY ahead on probes, and pulled back ahead on army strength, but got a little over-anxious and suicided on the ramp. Had he transitioned into an expansion while keeping up unit production with his economic edge, it would have ended up an easy win.
I haven't faced against this build myself. can i get an exact buildorder for this build?
i guess it's something ling 9 pylon 10 gate 11 gas 13 core 14 pylon
somewhere later 3 gate.
my questions are: 1. then do I produce a zealot out of the first gate to chase the probe? or a stalker? 2. do I get the second gas?, if I do, do i take them off the gas after the scouting probe dies? 3. when do i cut probes 4. which units should I warp in? (all stalkers? 50% stalker + 50% zealots?)
I'm sorry I can't seem to view the replay =(, but it seems quite effective now that I open up 1gate into fast robo(fast 2immortal push) almost every game.
On July 20 2010 22:16 Serenitylol wrote: What is the exact build order for this right up until 4 warps are done same time.. Just so i can maybe practice it..?
Unlike a normal protoss build, you're not using chrono unless I say so 9 pylon 10 gate, scout with probe 10 probe+chrono 13 gas 15 core (gas should finish about now, add three probes to it, once you have 50 gas cut probes - start taking them off at 44 gas) Keep probing to 18 When cycore is done start warpgate immediately and continuously chrono it (you will be able to continuously chrono despite having used one chrono earlier) 18 - gate gate gate When warpgate tech is 75% complete start warping in pylons in his main (ideally 3-4 spread out, players tend to do it near mineral lines)
Given that you've continuously chrono'd the warpgate everything will finish at pretty much the same time. Then just make warpgates and warp in zealots for an easy victory
If you put two on gas, you'll have just enough by the time the core finishes. Doesn't change much except a couple seconds saved on traveling time for 1 probe.
I dont really understand what is the problem with 4gate. 3gate robo destroys 4gate easily because of immortals. And the korean style "early pylon in your base" can easily be countered by spreading out your own pylons and not letting the first scouting probe do anything. I have tried 4gate on maps where the strat is really good, i.e. blistering sands, and still if my opponent has 3gates and a robo, its not even close Alot of P´s have started to use alot of immortals, so 4gate is imo stupid
i just want to calrify that correctly done the some of these pylons should be canceled. i usually make 4 and at this point his stalker, zealot and maybe a few probes will be target firing the pylons. to maximize its important to be on your cancel micro and not lose the minerals to a building pylon. often times they might get one but u should be able to finish only two to three i only keep one or two depending on circumstances. at this point i drop my four zealots but i try not to get too aggressive i want to wait for another wave before i start getting in his face. at this point i split my armies and have my zealots chase his zealots and stalkers while my stalkers are traget firing his probes. at this point you are all in and have to either cripple or win. for the opponent to counter this its tough to deal with but certainly not impossible. at the point of warpgates being online the best strategy is to drop some cannons and hold your main.
this build is so hard to pull off tho as warpgate tech takes a long time to research so it is not quite as powerful and losing your probe early to zealots or other probes equals gg as its doubtful you will get another in the main
^ Where are you getting stalkers from? Isn't the korean style pure zlots? oh and if you continue to mine gas, if something goes wrong you could just transition to a traditionally 4-gate push, couldn't you?
I dunno what PvPs you guys are playing, but I see a lot of diversity. The last patch, where they increased the Zealot build time to 38 seconds was what fucked everything up. There was absolutely no reason to do anything but Stalker + Sentry + Immortal and then collide in a contest of who's stupid enough to charge at who's chokepoint. Any attempt to go early Zealot that patch got trounced by any kind of Stalker build and when Sentries start showing up, Zealots are practically useless unless you keep pulling back and making him waste his energy.
Now things are back to the way they were before, with Zealots at a 33s build time, which means 2-gate pushes are back, Sentries and Stalkers are harder to field, Zealots are therefore stronger for longer and Collossi become important again.
Try different builds. I never played 4 warpgate builds because it becomes a unit composition and location-of-battle war instead of any micro or skill, since the build is so easy to do. I always played 1 gate robo gate builds on any map with a ramp, and i did just fine (finished 537 diamond ELO)
Please, this is only a danger to standard protoss openers and anyone who has their own unique build (me) can counter this. Getting 3 more gates at 18 is insanely late, and if you're letting a probe cruise around in your base you are doing something wrong.
Been using this build in PvP for ages, since i saw Tozar using it on his stream back in like.. patch 12 or 13 or something.
Something else to note: it's very easy to sneak an early probe into the base and hide it in a corner on a 2 player map. A bit more difficult if you ahve to scout the enemy first on a 4 player map, but all the same.. in pvp the players tend to sim city (more economical, easier to defend) rather than wall off, and as such it is very easy to "fake" a probe leaving the base, only to run it by the edge of the cliff out of your opponents sight range and then hide it in a corner. When Warp Tech is almost finished, warp in a hidden pylon and start warping units in. Sometimes i let it go for 2-3 warp in cycles before i attack, and i can usually take out a good 1/3 of the opponents workers before they even know whats going on.
Sometimes, if i get really lucky, they will be halfway to my base getting ready to push me, and i can take out key pylons or buildings and workers. Even if he opts to base trade at this point, its a pretty easy win in my favor. Ive also just used the "brute force" pylon tactic where i just warp in 3-4 pylons by his mineral line and keep warping units in. You're right, theres no way they can kill all the pylons before they finish.
I think the real strength of this build is that you can really power out drones until you have 100% saturation while you are researchign warp tech, and by the time it's done, you can warp in from 4 or even 5 gates depending on the units you warp in constantly. Because you worked so hard to get your warp tech early, you have a huge army advantage over your opponent from doign warp ins, and you just overwhelm them quickly.
Honestly, i don't think there is anything wrong with this build or strat. It is very easy to scout it, if you see constant chronoboosting of warp tech + 4x fast gates being put up and no units being produced from them.. it's pretty obvious.
Imo this is probably going to become the standard in PvP, because it just stomps any other build with the exception of all in 2 gating, which is easy to scout.
On July 21 2010 04:45 tehemperorer wrote: Here's a replay I have of me beating some proxy gate... Tell me I couldn't have won against this 4 gate "Korean style" shit.
PvP is a little silly, but i do enjoy the mass unit clashing. I play diamond and never get a pylon inside of their base (any good player will do a proxy check).
If you can mass right outside their base with a hidden pylon you can do a lot of damage after you mass enough units. just try to deny his scouting and if you can see that he is going 4gate as well you can wait till he moves out and then pincer attack him.
On July 21 2010 04:45 tehemperorer wrote: Here's a replay I have of me beating some proxy gate... Tell me I couldn't have won against this 4 gate "Korean style" shit.
Seriously read the thread or watch some replays...
You would have build order loss against his build so yes, you couldn't have won against this 4 gate "Korean style" shit.
I feel like you just posted a replay just to brag about some win
I take it you didn't watch then, and yes, I would have easily won against this crap. It's not unbeatable.
Edit: I'm not posting to brag, I couldn't care less. It bugs me when people whine about stuff being impossible to beat, ask for a solution, and then shoot down one that is offered with concrete proof. Though my replay wasn't the Korean style rush, it would have gone down the same way it did in the replay; with me winning.
On July 21 2010 04:45 tehemperorer wrote: Here's a replay I have of me beating some proxy gate... Tell me I couldn't have won against this 4 gate "Korean style" shit.
Seriously read the thread or watch some replays...
You would have build order loss against his build so yes, you couldn't have won against this 4 gate "Korean style" shit.
I feel like you just posted a replay just to brag about some win
I take it you didn't watch then, and yes, I would have easily won against this crap. It's not unbeatable.
Edit: I'm not posting to brag, I couldn't care less. It bugs me when people whine about stuff being impossible to beat, ask for a solution, and then shoot down one that is offered with concrete proof. Though my replay wasn't the Korean style rush, it would have gone down the same way it did in the replay; with me winning.
What bugs me is when people post a replay of a game of them going build x against build y, and then claiming it will 100% defeat build z. I for one took time to watch your replay, and other than the fact that it is utter trash (cannons against proxy gates - haha) it would NOT have even come close to beating it. Any competent player doing the proxy pylon build would recognize that since you took time to get a forge and 2nd gate you will have a very, very late cyber core and that player will easily be able to out produce you (4 warpgates vs 2 regular gates and late core = no contest). You would certainly not have won.
On a more friendly and helpful note of what is mostly theorycrafting: This is a very tough build to deal with. Blizzard can't really nerf anything related to this build without nerfing protoss versus other matchups as well (Warpgate cooldown time and pylon health come to mind but would obvious have huge other implications). I would say however that attacking the pylons is NOT the answer, unless perhaps you manage to kill the probe before four pylons are down. The player places down four pylons knowing that it will be impossible for you to destroy all of them before warp-in commences, so attacking them only plays into their hands (go ahead and attack them with units of course if their probe is dead, but don't pull any of your probes and sacrifice economy).
Because you can't be sure if they will get all their pylons down, and because a good player will plant four pylons before their probe is killed, it's more important IMO to focus on quickly recognizing the build and reacting accordingly. Making two zealots before a stalker may be helpful (saw a build order of HuK winning this way against Tozar doing this build). Save chronos for units and warpgates, and try to attack units as they are warping in, pulling enough probes to give you the advantage against their units.
@ plexa i have a simple solution to this. deny the scout entry to ur base. how you say? simple build two gates or one gate one cyber core at your entrance ( i prefer two gates as it tricks them into thinking your're going to zealot rush and puts them on d + your core can't get sniped) and have a probe hold position in the small gap like you would a zealot. if it does get in before you build those chrono boost a stalker asap and take out the probe. you can also build ur wall with one gate one pylon but the pylon can get sniped there later in the game.
I won the game against proxy gates, and it is trash? You're really saying that cannons are bad against zealots, especially when the zeals need to walk all the away across my base to get in at them in a space 1 unit wide? You make it sound like I spammed cannons, which I didn't... I placed them in the right positions and he couldn't do shit, and that's exactly what I would do against this "unbeatable" strategy. The end of the game would be the moment I get my warp prism, it is as simple as that.
The strategy you want to beat is when they warp in zealots... As soon as I saw the proxy gate I put down a forge. Once he tried to attack I knew he would go stalkers because that failed. I then go to stalkers, and soon after I went Immortal. At no point did he interrupt my mining, and if he had done anything different I would have responded differently, but with the same level of success. I've had people try warping crap into my base before, trust me, it doesn't work.
On July 21 2010 07:30 tehemperorer wrote: I won the game against proxy gates, and it is trash? You're really saying that cannons are bad against zealots, especially when the zeals need to walk all the away across my base to get in at them in a space 1 unit wide? You make it sound like I spammed cannons, which I didn't... I placed them in the right positions and he couldn't do shit, and that's exactly what I would do against this "unbeatable" strategy. The end of the game would be the moment I get my warp prism, it is as simple as that.
The strategy you want to beat is when they warp in zealots... As soon as I saw the proxy gate I put down a forge. Once he tried to attack I knew he would go stalkers because that failed. I then go to stalkers, and soon after I went Immortal. At no point did he interrupt my mining, and if he had done anything different I would have responded differently, but with the same level of success. I've had people try warping crap into my base before, trust me, it doesn't work.
The problem with spending resources early on in the game on static defense in your main is that it leaves behind in army size, unless your opponent is stupid enough to keep slamming against your cannons while you have units to defend them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying cannons are bad, I'm just saying that putting them in your main puts you at a disadvantage because you will then have less invested in your actual army.
The smart thing to do for your opponent would be to simply prevent you from expanding by keeping up pressure and keeping you inside your base, take his own expansion and win the macro game while teching up.
The nice thing about 4 gating is that even if you use all your cooldowns on gates, if you have your 1 base 100% saturated you can usually find the minerals to expand fairly quickly without sacrificing gate cooldowns.
On July 21 2010 07:30 tehemperorer wrote: I won the game against proxy gates, and it is trash? You're really saying that cannons are bad against zealots, especially when the zeals need to walk all the away across my base to get in at them in a space 1 unit wide? You make it sound like I spammed cannons, which I didn't... I placed them in the right positions and he couldn't do shit, and that's exactly what I would do against this "unbeatable" strategy. The end of the game would be the moment I get my warp prism, it is as simple as that.
The strategy you want to beat is when they warp in zealots... As soon as I saw the proxy gate I put down a forge. Once he tried to attack I knew he would go stalkers because that failed. I then go to stalkers, and soon after I went Immortal. At no point did he interrupt my mining, and if he had done anything different I would have responded differently, but with the same level of success. I've had people try warping crap into my base before, trust me, it doesn't work.
I'm not saying that cannons are bad against zealots. You won that game is because the other player had a terrible proxy build (even making a pylon in his base before the forward pylon). Typically the attack will come long before your cannon is up, and thus building a forge only impedes your zealot count.
The reason this would not work against the "Korean proxy" is that you have such a late core. You have both late warp gates and late stalkers, and the cannons that you have up would not be adequate defense against a few warped in stalkers which would pick at your buildings without you being able to do anything about it.
This in particular holds no water:
At no point did he interrupt my mining, and if he had done anything different I would have responded differently, but with the same level of success
On July 21 2010 07:22 Anon06 wrote: @ plexa i have a simple solution to this. deny the scout entry to ur base. how you say? simple build two gates or one gate one cyber core at your entrance ( i prefer two gates as it tricks them into thinking your're going to zealot rush and puts them on d + your core can't get sniped) and have a probe hold position in the small gap like you would a zealot. if it does get in before you build those chrono boost a stalker asap and take out the probe. you can also build ur wall with one gate one pylon but the pylon can get sniped there later in the game.
I mentioned your suggestion earlier, so again, I'm going to repeat what the deal is: if you have not spotted the build, or if you've guessed incorrectly, then yes, it's advantageous to have a two gate at the main or a one-gate/one-cyber build. This is dependent upon a few things, though. Either A) You kill the probe that is currently in your base before you can put down the two gates, thus preventing further probes from coming in, or B) the player is not able to get the probe inside in the first place. In which case, you will need to either be clever about your zealot/probe placement to kill his scouting probe or you'll need to spend cash on a stalker.
Also, since the build resembles a typical gate/cyber opening, you're still going to need to deal with what he transition to if he spots a 2-gate opening.
If you've spotted the build, then there are other ways to react. You can prepare with additional zealots, you can block the corners of your mineral line (or even wall-in entirely, if so inclined), or you can follow all the other tips suggested. Personally, I'd rather spot the build early and react, but to each his own.
I'm not saying that cannons are bad against zealots. You won that game is because the other player had a terrible proxy build (even making a pylon in his base before the forward pylon). Typically the attack will come long before your cannon is up, and thus building a forge only impedes your zealot count.
The reason this would not work against the "Korean proxy" is that you have such a late core. You have both late warp gates and late stalkers, and the cannons that you have up would not be adequate defense against a few warped in stalkers which would pick at your buildings without you being able to do anything about it.
At no point did he interrupt my mining, and if he had done anything different I would have responded differently, but with the same level of success
I think that last sentence sums it up... I did what I did because I saw what he was doing and knew to counter it... If I know he is going stalkers I can let off the zealot production and get an earlier core, but since I was able to see all his zealots, I knew he had a late core too.
I guess my point is that with the 2 or 3 cannons I had at the beginning of the match, and the units I had (even though I had less), my base configuration made it so that even with greater numbers that strategy simply does not work!
On July 21 2010 07:22 Anon06 wrote: @ plexa i have a simple solution to this. deny the scout entry to ur base. how you say? simple build two gates or one gate one cyber core at your entrance ( i prefer two gates as it tricks them into thinking your're going to zealot rush and puts them on d + your core can't get sniped) and have a probe hold position in the small gap like you would a zealot. if it does get in before you build those chrono boost a stalker asap and take out the probe. you can also build ur wall with one gate one pylon but the pylon can get sniped there later in the game.
how can you deny a probe scout, when the probe scouts at 10? There's no map where the probe won't get into your base and run around until the time is right. Even a chronoboosted stalker MIGHT be too late. It really depends on where the probe is and where your gate is. The timing is that tight.
What works against this build, most of the time, is chrono boosting 1 zealot and attacking. The zealot comes out much faster than warp gates can be finished, the build requires all chronoboosts to be used on warp gate research else the timing is extremely off and money is pretty tight, so much so that adding a zealot to the build ruins the timing significantly.
i find that in PvP the starting scout is extremely important. You absolutely need to keep it alive until a stalker chases it out. by the time the stalker comes out, you will have the mineral to go up to 3-4 gate momentarily. as soon as this happens your base is safe.
if he doesnt make a stalker to chase your probe out, you should c the amount of gates hes putting up. match the number hes putting up and you should be fine. if he still puts a bunch of pylons in your base and warp stuff in, you will have the gates to match it. you will also have the benefits of probes helping in the fight and your opponent having to spent 400 mineral on 4 pylons in your base.
PvP is practically completely based on timing right now since not having a equal sized army is GG. the reinforcement speed of warp gate is just too strong for you to have a smaller army and stay alive.
On July 21 2010 04:06 Ghostcom wrote: ^ Where are you getting stalkers from? Isn't the korean style pure zlots? oh and if you continue to mine gas, if something goes wrong you could just transition to a traditionally 4-gate push, couldn't you?
u can make some stalkers too but first wave should be zlots. and u can 4gate push but you cut probes in this build so you will come up behind your opponent who went thirteen gate and hasnt quit his probe production. this build commits to a timing attack if you cant produce in that timing you are in really bad shape not to mention youll have to rebuild the destroyed pylons in your main
A lot of people in this thread aren't checking the replays or appreciating what build we are discussing here. As such, if I get time I'll record a video of it and upload it so everyone is on the same page.
The only build which defeats this 90% of the time is a double proxy gate (which actually defeats 13 gate 90% of the time as well). Without the beta online all we can do to check the validity of other openings against this build is check the timings on the various builds. If you think you have a legitimate counter to this build then please, post a replay here and I'll check the timings on it and see if it is valid. For the record, this build is best used on Scrap station but also works well on other two player maps and as such all considerations will be made with the assumption that the map is scrap station. (The idea behind this is, if it is broken on scrap station then it can be broken on other maps and hence needs fixing. If it is not broken on scrap station, then it shouldn't be broken on any other map since it is clearly most effective on SS)
(I have read the whole thread now) From a game-theory-point-of-view: There is a build that beats all standard openings quite often and quite easily. But there is another build that beats that build 90% of the time and also wins against the standard opening fairly often. So in my eyes the answer to beat this strategy is not "chronoboost your first stalker" or "deny scouting" etc. It is rather the fact that there is a definite counter to it, so this korean style 4 gate warp should not be used too often, because then everyone would do 2 proxy gates.
This btw is the reason why SC:BW is so great, because the nash equilibria for all matchups is often a single strategy with some variations, and not a mix of different strategies. For example: In PvZ you can forge FE and it will be possible to defend all cheese that the opponent can throw at you. Of course anyone can differ from the nash equilibrium, e.g. by building nexus first in PvT, but then there is a strategy (bunkerrush) that will beat it almost always, so you cant do it very often, and it also isnt a game winner on its own.
In Starcraft 2 there are currently a lot of strategies not only in PvP but also in almost all other matchups, where the nash equilibrium is a mix of different strategies, the example being 4gate korean style and 2gate proxy and lets say a well executed standard opening, where those three can be seen as rock paper scissors in some way (even though theyre not equaly in their winratios against the other 2, this does not affect the outcome much, since a player only has to adjust how often he chooses each strategy). This generally is very bad for the game, since compared to rock paper scissors, it will take around 5-10 minutes to realize you made the wrong choice and lost the game which is very annoying.
Sometimes a strategy will evolve, that is economically inferior to some other strategies, but will be able to defend against every single cheese possible. This partly is already happening for SC2, where there were times when everyone used banelingbusts vs Terran, toss ALWAYS 2gate proxied etc. Some of those were fixed by Blizzard, some where actually fixed by the evolution of the players strategies.
Therefore the players must either come up with a way to beat the cheeses, but this strategy must not be behind economically compared to a standard opening. The thing is, that this is obviously not too hard for mirror matchups, since there can not be any unfair strategy. However, for the sake of "fun" games that are "good to watch", these strategies should be a bit more complex then the one discussed in this thread.
On July 21 2010 15:47 Plexa wrote: The only build which defeats this 90% of the time is a double proxy gate (which actually defeats 13 gate 90% of the time as well).
I don't think double proxy is the only way to go. As powerful as I think this build is, it seems to crumble under any kind of early aggression.
A 10-gate chronoboosted zealot is heading for your base with another one queued. What do you do? You have to start making zealots right? You can't afford to have it wail on your probes while your warpgate tech finishes. And if you're matching his zealot count, those gateways are going to be delayed significantly.
Outside the occasional cannon rush and proxy gates, early PvP is usually so passive, that's why this works so often. It might actually help the matchup in the long run by forcing early exchanges just to prevent this.
On July 21 2010 15:47 Plexa wrote: The only build which defeats this 90% of the time is a double proxy gate (which actually defeats 13 gate 90% of the time as well).
I don't think double proxy is the only way to go. As powerful as I think this build is, it seems to crumble under any kind of early aggression.
A 10-gate chronoboosted zealot is heading for your base with another one queued. What do you do? You have to start making zealots right? You can't afford to have it wail on your probes while your warpgate tech finishes. And if you're matching his zealot count, those gateways are going to be delayed significantly.
Outside the occasional cannon rush and proxy gates, early PvP is usually so passive, that's why this works so often. It might actually help the matchup in the long run by forcing early exchanges just to prevent this.
Firstly, on scrap station 10gate chrono'd zealot isn't going to be viable against any kind of standard play and you'll be playing catchup for the whole game. Secondly given the rush distance it isn't hard for a small adaptation to take place and just match the zealot count. Thirdly, the minerals invested into the Zealot just mean one less pylon in the main, not a big deal really =/. I dno.. doesn't seem like a good idea.
On July 21 2010 21:37 Plexa wrote:Firstly, on scrap station 10gate chrono'd zealot isn't going to be viable against any kind of standard play and you'll be playing catchup for the whole game. Secondly given the rush distance it isn't hard for a small adaptation to take place and just match the zealot count. Thirdly, the minerals invested into the Zealot just mean one less pylon in the main, not a big deal really =/. I dno.. doesn't seem like a good idea.
I see what you mean. One thing, though. You can't just say "1 zealot just means 1 less pylon in the main". The minerals you have when it's time to drop the pylons are available because you haven't been doing anything since you started 3 gateways. Having to spend minerals on 1-2 zealots has an immediate effect on the build. Gateways will be delayed. Whether that's enough to make a difference I can't say for sure. I'm not usually on the other end of this build :D
On July 21 2010 15:47 Plexa wrote: A lot of people in this thread aren't checking the replays or appreciating what build we are discussing here. As such, if I get time I'll record a video of it and upload it so everyone is on the same page.
The only build which defeats this 90% of the time is a double proxy gate (which actually defeats 13 gate 90% of the time as well). Without the beta online all we can do to check the validity of other openings against this build is check the timings on the various builds. If you think you have a legitimate counter to this build then please, post a replay here and I'll check the timings on it and see if it is valid. For the record, this build is best used on Scrap station but also works well on other two player maps and as such all considerations will be made with the assumption that the map is scrap station. (The idea behind this is, if it is broken on scrap station then it can be broken on other maps and hence needs fixing. If it is not broken on scrap station, then it shouldn't be broken on any other map since it is clearly most effective on SS)
Actually I disagree that a proxy gate defeats this 90% of the time. In my eyes, this build will almost always defeat a proxy gate build (with good scouting and micro). Because it appears standard to probe scout after the 10 gateway, the player has quite a lot of time to check around for proxy gates and throw up another gateway. The player who originally intended to do the build can easily throw down another gateway, and with a stronger economy (not sending the early probe to build a forward pylon) and faster gateways (unless the other player does something like 9/10 instead of 10/12) should be able to win.
Granted, if the proxy gates go unscouted, it is an autoloss. But I can't think of a situation where you wouldn't want to take time to scout for proxy gates when doing this build.
I think standard two gate zealot pushes would be the most effective strategy against this build. I don't have any replays of it, but perhaps you could check the standard timing of when the proxy pylon player's probe scout arrives in the enemy base, see if their core has been thrown up yet, and see how far ahead on gateways the two gating player is. I think it would again come down to zealot micro, but I think a standard two gate opening would be much more effective than proxy gates.
On July 21 2010 10:56 trucejl wrote: PvP is practically completely based on timing right now since not having a equal sized army is GG. the reinforcement speed of warp gate is just too strong for you to have a smaller army and stay alive.
I agree somewhat, though I would say that even without an equal size army you can still win with positioning and micro. Also, you should be aware of the pylons and their psy radius, since killing one before their troops are warped in will cancel them.
On July 21 2010 15:47 Plexa wrote: A lot of people in this thread aren't checking the replays or appreciating what build we are discussing here. As such, if I get time I'll record a video of it and upload it so everyone is on the same page.
The only build which defeats this 90% of the time is a double proxy gate (which actually defeats 13 gate 90% of the time as well). Without the beta online all we can do to check the validity of other openings against this build is check the timings on the various builds. If you think you have a legitimate counter to this build then please, post a replay here and I'll check the timings on it and see if it is valid. For the record, this build is best used on Scrap station but also works well on other two player maps and as such all considerations will be made with the assumption that the map is scrap station. (The idea behind this is, if it is broken on scrap station then it can be broken on other maps and hence needs fixing. If it is not broken on scrap station, then it shouldn't be broken on any other map since it is clearly most effective on SS)
I think you're right (though really triple proxy gate is what you'll end up seeing if the game doesn't end immediately). In fact, I don't see a reason to not proxy 3 gate every single game. PvP is the dumbest matchup, well dwarfing ZvZ which is way way way stupider than TvP TvT TvZ or PvZ.
I will point out why this is the case, because it really is super simple: Protoss has no micro-effective unit.
There is not a single unit in the protoss arsenal which, if controlled properly, can be made to kill more of the same unit. You could micro a reaver to kill plenty of reavers in BW. You can't do that in this game. Therefore there is no way to use skill and execution to hold off an attack. You just need more stuff.
Compare this to ZvZ. Banelings are the primary example of a unit that is micro effective. Two blings can kill 20 blings if you play smart with them. It then becomes about control and allows a player to use less stuff and gain an economic advantage, or other advantage. Queens with transfusion micro also do the same thing. Mutas are heavily micro based. Roach vs roach spam back in early beta was STILL micro effective, because with good burrows and control you could beat a bigger army, though it wasn't very easy and that MU was very stale then. ZvZ is insanely tactical, though the lack of scoutability really hurts the MU imo.
TvT too is all about control. Good tank placement and use of sight modifiers (towers, scans, floating buildings, air, etc.) enables tanks to kill many other tanks. That's why tanks are the most important unit - they allow you to gain an advantage over your opponent through mechanical skill and tactics.
I thought the breaker for that in PvP was the colossus, but it really isn't. Colossi do not benefit from control at all. In fact, colossi are the epitome of a-move. You gain much more benefit in fights by microing your stalkers/immos to FF, or using sentries more effectively. Speaking of sentries, force field in theory should be the solution, but it's not because you just can't defend your natural with fewer units through sentry micro. You can't expand so you can never gain an advantage through sentry use unless you're fighting a push up your ramp.
I think protoss needs a micro-intensive unit again like the reaver. I don't want to say the colossus < reaver, but I do think without a micro-intensive unit PvP will remain broken, and you have to admit that's what the reaver was.
Currently the temptation to Proxy-Gateway every single PvP to end it quickly the one or other way is huge, at least for me, because this Matchup is just stupid. "Oh look, you tried to get away with no all in. You lost <3"
I know that im a few of my replays and games I go straight stalkers vs X gateway zealots and I am almost always safe because of some epic walling with walltight gateways.
This all seems kind of sad to me, and if the game truly evolves into this, I'll stop playing.
If I see someone with two gates and no gas, I'll throw down my forge and build two cannons at the ramp. That usually stops or discourages the initial zealot rush, and then I can sit back and build something more interesting than just a zealot production race.
If you think my solution isn't good enough, or no other solution is good enough to put a stop to the two gate proxy cheese or 4 gate zealot pump which wins 90% of games, then why on Earth do you keep playing? It's like, "HA! you were 2 seconds behind on putting down your second gateway, which means I had an extra zealot for 2 seconds, and I WIN! Yes! Yes!"
If that's all it comes down to, there are a lot of other games out there, you know...
On July 22 2010 10:46 Kime wrote: This all seems kind of sad to me, and if the game truly evolves into this, I'll stop playing.
If I see someone with two gates and no gas, I'll throw down my forge and build two cannons at the ramp. That usually stops or discourages the initial zealot rush, and then I can sit back and build something more interesting than just a zealot production race.
If you think my solution isn't good enough, or no other solution is good enough to put a stop to the two gate proxy cheese or 4 gate zealot pump which wins 90% of games, then why on Earth do you keep playing? It's like, "HA! you were 2 seconds behind on putting down your second gateway, which means I had an extra zealot for 2 seconds, and I WIN! Yes! Yes!"
If that's all it comes down to, there are a lot of other games out there, you know...
Try it yourself when the game is out. If it doesn't work, try to improve on it. That's why you play this game. That's the fun part :D
If you're going to build cannons against the "4 Warpgate Proxy Pylon" though don't put them at your choke. If that probe gets in before it goes down you just wasted 150 minerals.
I just thought it was awesome Tozar posted second. I basically learned one of the best ways to do a 4 gate into aggressive proxy pylon from his replays against Huk and others.
This build has been made a bit weaker, and there have been multiple times where I'm building a proxy pylon as I'm killing one in my own base. I think it's just funny, we usually both end up living, favoring our own base warps a little too much, and losing all our proxies. I could understand how you could find this a bit bland, no worries, once retail hits I'm sure something else will become dreadfully common in the 4gates stead.
Then hopefully people will use 4 gate for something else besides timing attacks. Notice how often the 4 gate is called "All in" compared to the 3 gate Robo. Having an additional gate is actually safer in some ways than getting robo, yet the 4 gates nature is objectively seen as all-in aggression, and I'm pretty sure this will evolve with time as well.
Think about using the 4 gate to expand against a bio Terran, better than trying it with 3 gate robo imo. ~300 Diamond peace peace
I think that the way for blizzard to balance this(and make better presentations to viewers of games) is to bring back the 1 building that let Tempest defeat Light in BW. *insert epic music here* The Shield Battery!
Vod:
This recharges shields and lets 1 unit defeat more units of the same kind. Especially since if the 4 warp gate rush has to add a shield battery to keep up, units have to keep retreating to the shield battery which will most likely be away from the opponet's shield battery by a good distance. I don't see how this would imbalance other MUs either.
info for non-BW players: The shield battery has 200 shield and 200 armor and starts off with 100energy and 200 max energy. Its like the medivac/medic in that it costs energy to heal unit's shields.
It can be used to great affect as support against a rush or cheese with a higher production count(like we are talking about here). I don't see any other way to keep PvP from being worse than ZvZ in BW. Plus, it might help a lot against future strategies too. Please show me how this wouldn't fix the MU if u think it won't.
What you describe is infact strong, and there are only approximately about 3 ways to deal with it.
Personally in PvP early scout and go 12 gate. You'll know if someones going 10gate to fast warp gate pretty fast.
(Now to counter the 'super' early 4 gate all in): First off, always Scout. When you see the 10gate you should expect it to be a 4gate.
Counter #1: Chrono boost your first zealot, but don't impede your core build. You still want it asap. Send a probe to follow/attack their scouting probe. It is worth it to see if they put a pylon. If they do, then that is what your zealot is for. Throw down your second gateway early. Save your chrono boosts for a stalker to dispatch of his probe, then zealots after the stalker to deal with the pylons. Your first zealot should be far completed before he throws down any pylons, so just chase his probe until he does.
If done correctly you should be able to continue producing units from your initial 2 gateways and dispatch of his pylons, crippling and nullifying his rush. However... depending on map you'll need to figure our what you're going to do. So sentry stalker on ramp while teching, or getting a cannon are both options.
Counter #2: Obviously scout. If positions are close or it's a map like steppes of war when you see the 10 gate throw down a second gateway after you see his gateway. I personally like to use my scouting probe and proxy 2 additional gateways either right inside of his base, or right outside. If he's any good he will know what you are doing but it wont matter, as his economy is suffering from the 10 gate, and not to mention hurting even further from the assimilator or cybercore if he already got it. So 3 gate mass zealot, 1 in main, 2 proxied - even IF he gets stalkers, you'll have a superior amount of units and be able to attack/harass his probe line and eventually win.
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in response to the shield battery post, the attacker will just use them as well.
PvP is fine at top level in sc2. If you're losing to cheese you just need to adapt.
If the attacker uses them as well then It becomes a fun to watch micro fest instead of a A-click fest. Also, it can be used so that u can spend 100-300 minerals on 1-3 shield batteries and have only a few stalkers(like those cool BW goons in the video) take out most of the rush and have the rest of ur units go to the enemy main base and kill their pylons powering their gates. Then u proceed to rape and GG.
edit: then again this IS just theoryocrafting.
edit2: to poster below me,(Mr.LOL) protoss is in no way the easiest race, try playing as protoss versus a 5-6 rax all-in attack off of 1 base and then tell me what u think of protoss. Protoss is in no way the famed 1a2a3a. It takes a lot of skill to play it and u have to time force fields perfectly and don't even get me started on PvZ!
when you play a protoss player you know they are going to do something shitty like cheese. All protoss players are little bitches. Protoss is obviously the easiest race with the most cheeses
Have u even tried playing as the protoss up to a diamond league at all? If u have then please show me some proof, otherwise stop making bad posts where just call a race imba with no concrete explanation. Cheese is part of every race, not just the protoss. If u were lurking here before beta came u would remember those threads about a blizzcon build where zerg dominated with a pool/queen zergling rush.
edit:fixed grammar.
edit2: taken straight out of the guidelines, please follow them.
- Nothing is imba. If you found something imba, it's most likely not. Find a counter. This is no place for balance discussion. - Everybody knows the game is just in beta, you don't need to point that out. - B.net league placements aren't that relevant. Your Platinum spot doesn't mean anything. - If you have not played the beta, be careful about what you say
edit3: If I have somehow misunderstood the guidelines some how myself(as I have done in the past) then I am deeply sorry.
Tester spotted an opportunity to do this build when he scouted Huk's economy oriented build. Huk did not scout thoroughly and made an assumption based on the delayed timings on Tester's structures. The reason Tester's build worked wasn't because it was faster or more efficient, it was because it was unexpected. He also microed very, very well with his zealots and warped them in a safe location to avoid taking extra damage while warping in.
Some critical flaws in Huk's response was that his Stalkers were not close enough to the probes to draw in all of the zealots, probably because Huk's building layout which made it very difficult for him to micro close to his nexus. This made it so much easier for Tester to kill probes while keeping Huk's Stalkers busy.
i don't think "just chronoboosting your first stalker and killing the probe" will necessarily work. i'm wondering if there is a way to defend and/or put pressure back on the "rusher" as a way to stop this. of course one could do the "same" build which is probably the safest.
brainstorming: 1) simply threaten his base by building a pylon there - perhaps this forces him to warp into his own base, buying some extra time 2) can anything be done with cannons? offensive or defensive? i don't think this idea too much but figured it was worth discussing. 3) anything else?
On July 22 2010 22:58 redwingxviii wrote: i don't think "just chronoboosting your first stalker and killing the probe" will necessarily work. i'm wondering if there is a way to defend and/or put pressure back on the "rusher" as a way to stop this. of course one could do the "same" build which is probably the safest.
brainstorming: 1) simply threaten his base by building a pylon there - perhaps this forces him to warp into his own base, buying some extra time 2) can anything be done with cannons? offensive or defensive? i don't think this idea too much but figured it was worth discussing. 3) anything else?
I think 1-2 chronoboosted zealots sent straight to his mineral lines would either win you the game or prevent/delay him from putting down a 4th gateway. Plexa doesn't agree and he may be right but I can't know for sure until in a few days. There's a huge window where this build is defenseless. Especially after putting down the 4 gateways: you have no money, no units, no units in production, 1 finished gateway, no warp, and you need a pylon. Any aggression at that point sounds deadly.
i agree that it could prevent or delay, but i don't think it will win the game for you (which is fine - the main goal is to delay and get to mid-game)
for now though, when i play PvP, i think there's too little downside to starting off with a 4 gate mindset and adjusting based on scouting. unless i'm wrong, i'm thinking i can essentially "mirror" the korean warp gate build and have enough to defend against it, and then hopefully kill some pylons and be a little bit ahead.
There was a guy here a few months ago that put his build order down for this and replays.
Then I tried it on my friend who after seeing I had zero to low troops in my base proceeded to proxy cannon my base, and then second time went two gate and had 2 zealots in my base killing my probes.
On July 20 2010 00:58 ToxNub wrote: I've had 3 games in the past week where we both just ran out of minerals because neither could expand. Just complete stalemates.
I think you are making plenty of mistakes if this is happening to you often. If you are playing a "mirror match" in every sense of the word, then just out upgrade him.
That's the key for this kind of retarded games, cut a prove and a sentry, and later you'll be on top. Also, a early forge shuts down the army split early harrass. With a few cannons, If they wanna break, they have to commit their units to it, and just by forcing his army to stick together you gain a lot in a defensive situation.
Also, I started experimenting with other types of sim cityes that allow you to hide tech, while protecting the mineral line and even "walling it in" (actually you just force a really large surround trough your army).
This small details, really turn things in your favor in dorky "we are doing the freakking same" games, even if the oposite player has more apm.
It's a little frustrating that the matchup looks like it will eventually degenerate to this situation (I much prefer macro games), but at least there's still alot of strategy involved.
How many people have tried this strat and succeeded with it? Its tough to pull off and not to mention, a big risk. I really don't think people understand how much of a gamble this is.
If they get out a fast Stalker, you have to decide if you want to continue with the proxy-pylon strat, plop down a bunch of pylons ASAP (costing you a lot of minerals at a critical juncture, when your own Warp-Gate tech just started and you need to start building more Gateways soon) and hope they don't all die before your Warp Gates are ready to roll, or just give up and go home.
You aren't going to have Warp Gate tech and Warp Gates ready LONG before their Stalker is out. Your Probe is pretty much fucked within the next 20 seconds and you've got another two minutes before you're ready to go.
And if they kill all your Pylons with just a couple of Zealots? Well you're down a buttload of minerals and now they know a 4-gate push is coming to their front-door and can ruin your day with simple Force Fields.
How many Protoss get out fast Stalkers? Well, if their build isn't 2-Gate aggression, which is going to rape this build on most maps to begin with, its a fast Stalker, which will easily kill your Probe and can deny any others from getting inside.
I assert that this strat is a lot harder and riskier to pull off than the majority are claiming.
On July 23 2010 01:41 Barrin wrote: I know not everyone likes to wall off their front but... unless I am just some kind of noob... why dont you 2pylon+gateway+zealot block your ramp? Pretty sure you can do this before they get to you.
Who is they? This is a warping rush. The scouting probe is what gets to you and lays down pylons as your first stalker comes out. If you manage to kill the scout before it lays down pylons then you're in great shape anyway wall-in or not.
On July 23 2010 01:42 Bibdy wrote: How many people have tried this strat and succeeded with it? Its tough to pull off and not to mention, a big risk. I really don't think people understand how much of a gamble this is.
You aren't going to have Warp Gate tech and Warp Gates ready LONG before their Stalker is out. Your Probe is pretty much fucked within the next 20 seconds and you've got another two minutes before you're ready to go.
I do this every single PvP unless I scout a 2-gate. I'm not a very good multitasker so the few times I lose is because my probe got stuck somewhere or I didn't start the pylons early enough. I also now put a pylon outside before going in. If my probe dies it just becomes a common 4-gate rush.
I think you're underestimating how long it takes for a zealot and stalker or 2 zealots to kill 4 pylons. My PvP win rate is much higher than the other two.
On July 23 2010 01:42 Bibdy wrote: How many people have tried this strat and succeeded with it? Its tough to pull off and not to mention, a big risk. I really don't think people understand how much of a gamble this is.
You aren't going to have Warp Gate tech and Warp Gates ready LONG before their Stalker is out. Your Probe is pretty much fucked within the next 20 seconds and you've got another two minutes before you're ready to go.
I do this every single PvP unless I scout a 2-gate. I'm not a very good multitasker so the few times I lose is because my probe got stuck somewhere or I didn't start the pylons early enough. I also now put a pylon outside before going in. If my probe dies it just becomes a common 4-gate rush.
I think you're underestimating how long it takes for a zealot and stalker or 2 zealots to kill 4 pylons. My PvP win rate is much higher than the other two.
I've been trying it out myself, too, ever since I got caught by it and its really not that difficult to kill the things.
It takes one Zealot about 33 seconds to kill a Pylon.
200 shield = 12.5 attacks at full damage 200 health = 13.5 attacks at -1 damage (1 armour)
They attack every 1.2 seconds, so that's 27*1.2 = 32.4 seconds for just a Zealot alone. You can also pull some Probes and you've got the Stalker once it nails the Probe.
Normally you've got about two full minutes to kill the Pylons, but if they felt the need to drop FOUR at once, you've got a huge lead on his unit count. Its at that moment they need to start placing down Gateways as well, in order for their 65 second build time to coincide with the completion of Chrono-boosted Warp Gate tech. Spending so many minerals at that point sets you back enormously.
And even if you just have two minutes? Chrono Boost out two Zealots when they start going down and kill the Pylons. Maybe pull a few Probes. That's how my attempts get thwarted all the time. Now I just don't bother. I just try to sneak in a single pylon somewhere and hope they don't spot it. Smaller investment, much less risk and occassionally rapes someone in the face.
On July 23 2010 02:05 Bibdy wrote: Normally you've got about two full minutes to kill the Pylons, but if they felt the need to drop FOUR at once, you've got a huge lead on his unit count. Its at that moment they need to start placing down Gateways as well, in order for their 65 second build time to coincide with the completion of Chrono-boosted Warp Gate tech. Spending so many minerals at that point sets you back enormously.
You can simply cancel pylons which going to be destroyed right before and lose just 25 Minerals per Pylon.
On July 23 2010 02:05 Bibdy wrote: Normally you've got about two full minutes to kill the Pylons, but if they felt the need to drop FOUR at once, you've got a huge lead on his unit count. Its at that moment they need to start placing down Gateways as well, in order for their 65 second build time to coincide with the completion of Chrono-boosted Warp Gate tech. Spending so many minerals at that point sets you back enormously.
You can simply cancel pylons which going to be destroyed right before and lose just 25 Minerals per Pylon.
They only take 23 seconds to make. He isn't even going to have a Zealot out at that time, just the Stalker. You're definitely going to have to let them finish, because your Probe is doomed. There's a Stalker chasing it!
Its not the say the build doesn't work all the time, just against 2-gate pressure and fast Stalkers, which are like 90% of the PvPs I play. Any kind of econ build (e.g. 13-gate) is probably going to get rocked, which is why I favour 10-gate builds and very early aggression.
I just go for 2-gate pressure myself right now because there doesn't seem to be any point hoping that my opponent won't. Its a very strong opening and there doesn't seem to be any disadvantage to it. You take the fight to his mineral line and force him to pull Probes. If he tries to go for a Stalker, he's pretty much doomed unless its a large map and if he matches your Zealot count, you just run off and go for plan B. Better to threaten him into reacting and potentially forcing him to pull Probes than hope he won't do the exact same thing to you.
On July 23 2010 02:05 Bibdy wrote: Normally you've got about two full minutes to kill the Pylons, but if they felt the need to drop FOUR at once, you've got a huge lead on his unit count.
Something is wrong here. How can you have 2 minutes to kill the pylons? I have a feeling the build is not executed properly. Are you chronoboosting your warpgate research nonstop? Are you pulling probes from gas after getting 50 for warp. Of course he has a huge lead on your unit count, you don't build ANY units until it's time to warp in.
On July 23 2010 02:05 Bibdy wrote: Normally you've got about two full minutes to kill the Pylons, but if they felt the need to drop FOUR at once, you've got a huge lead on his unit count.
Something is wrong here. How can you have 2 minutes to kill the pylons? I have a feeling the build is not executed properly. Are you chronoboosting your warpgate nonstop? Are you pulling probes from gas after getting 50 for warp. Of course he has a huge lead on your unit count, you don't build ANY units until it's time to warp in.
Fast Stalker and this strat are basically the same build order up until the Core. 10-Gate, 13-Assimilator, 15ish-Core. So if his Warp Gate tech (140) starts off at the same time as your Stalker (42), there's a 100 second difference there. 100 seconds to kill the Probe and any resulting Pylons.
Okay, so quite a bit less than 2 minutes, but still it doesn't take too long to kill the Probe, pump out a couple of Zealots and start killing Pylons.
You can only really afford to make about two Pylons without setting yourself back on Gateway construction. Any more and you start pushing back "Warp-in time", giving him more time to kill the Pylons and you have to fall back on a 3 or 4-gate push or try to work something else in. You aren't going to do much damage warping in 2 units against two Zealots and a Stalker (and possibly more) he's got waiting for you.
On July 23 2010 02:42 redwingxviii wrote: back - you say that you do it if you don't scout a 2 gate - why do you stop if it is a two gate? can't you warp in enough units to wreck the 2 gate?
Faaaack no. Zealots will start smashing down your Gateways and Pylons long before Warp Gate tech is done.
On July 23 2010 02:42 redwingxviii wrote: back - you say that you do it if you don't scout a 2 gate - why do you stop if it is a two gate? can't you warp in enough units to wreck the 2 gate?
I just assume he will be aggressive with his two gates. Early aggression is frightning when you don't build units before warp gates and you need all your chronoboosts for the core.
On July 23 2010 02:25 Bibdy wrote: They only take 23 seconds to make. He isn't even going to have a Zealot out at that time, just the Stalker. You're definitely going to have to let them finish, because your Probe is doomed. There's a Stalker chasing it!
Just approximated: He got his core about 24 sec earlier with 10 Gate than a 12 Gate Core. A CB Stalker still lasts 32sec to produce, you have to take account for the time the stalker needs to actually kill the probe while a CB Warpgate-Tech needs 70-80sec (I am not familiar with the particular possible CB-Counts) to be researched. Therefore is a timing window of maximal 14(24) sec between killing the probe and destroying all 4 pylons (which oc are not clumped at one spot rather than spread around your base making it even harder to get them down in time) it has placed and as you mentioned yourself, a pylon takes 23 sec to build, so there is plenty of time to cancel.
Edit: Should have mentioned I was talking about 12 Gate Openings.
Technically you can get Warp Gate tech done in 93 seconds tops, but that's 5 straight Chrono-Boosts, so your economy won't be doing great and you probably won't have the minerals to build the 2-3 Gates you need to build 30 seconds after you start the Tech. The trick is coinciding the completion of the Gateways with the completion of Warp Gate Tech and I think you really have to spend some Chrono Boosts on Probes to pull that off optimally. I'm willing to bet good money that if you try to do that, there's no way you're going to have 4, or possibly even 3 Gateways ready for its completion, especially when you start constructing on 10 food.
In the same way, you can get a Stalker out in 28 seconds (followed by a couple of Zealots, so you aren't going to be wasting that second CB if you do double it up like that).
The Probe really doesn't live very long. If you save it to the last second to start plopping down Pylons (giving you the capability of cancelling them if you need to) by only placing them when the Stalker is about to pop out, you can't really get four down that easily. Its a bit of a gamble. After all, every time it places a Pylon it stops moving, giving the Stalker an easy shot. The Stalker can't even kill the first Pylon in 23 seconds, so there's really no need to cancel beyond the first one. Better to just let it finish and give him more health to chew through, giving you more time to set up your Warp Gates before it finishes the last one.
I still assert that its not an easy thing to pull off. I tried it a lot, because its fun, but its just not very dependable and 2-gate pushes are even more frustrating.
The first question to ask is whether defender advantage is maintained if both players do this build but one decides to defend. If you can successfully defend with mirror BO it would seem that lets you pull ahead... they lost their pylons. I think the aggressive player is favoured though, because in a strict mirror where you warp in your zealots at home to defend, your gateways are running on one or maybe two pylons (assuming both players proxy'd their other pylons), and if you lose gateway power you're toast. It'd be too difficult to defend your minerals and your pylon(s). That settled, what if both players do the build, except one decides to build pylons at home upon deciding to defend? In this case I see the defender having a clear advantage: both players have identical zealot production, but the onus is on the attacker to DO something because eventually he'll lose his pylons. In addition, the defender has probes to use, which shouldn't be underestimated in zealot fights properly micro'd.
Since this 4warp proxy rush starts out as a 10 gate, which gives you the opportunity to diverge towards more "standard" builds before pulling the trigger on rushing warp research, and you send a fast scout anyway, shouldn't this be the "standard" build until both players see each other setting up for it, at which point they should choose to be defensive? Then you just have a normal 1 base game, which I find isn't as bad as the complaints insist.
To reiterate for clarity: to defend against the rush, just do the rush, except keep it at home. If they aren't doing the rush, rush them. Then, if both players see the rush setup, they'll both stay home, and you don't have a dumb game all the time.
Regarding the tester - huk game in KotB: the reason tester was so successful was because huk didn't know about the pylon in the south of his base. He kept his units near the other pylons that he could see, where warping zealots would have been severely chewed up before fully warped. The first wave was entirely untouched and unanticipated, and it went downhill from there. A normal base check for pylons would have helped a lot.
edit 2: I find zealot micro to be highly skillful and entertaining. I find pining for reavers to be a bit... limited.
trying to incorporate this with sentry hallucination so that i dont need to sneak probe and warp hidden pylons in the enemy base, i can just warp pylon under the cliff and hallucinate a flyier in order to warp up to the cliff, but it delays everything for 1 min 30 secs and timings become even tighter, economy a little bit worse, and u need sentry very early in order to accumulate 100 energy
On July 21 2010 07:22 Anon06 wrote: @ plexa i have a simple solution to this. deny the scout entry to ur base. how you say? simple build two gates or one gate one cyber core at your entrance ( i prefer two gates as it tricks them into thinking your're going to zealot rush and puts them on d + your core can't get sniped) and have a probe hold position in the small gap like you would a zealot. if it does get in before you build those chrono boost a stalker asap and take out the probe. you can also build ur wall with one gate one pylon but the pylon can get sniped there later in the game.
And then the other player just clicks on the mineral patches in your base and the probe goes right thru your blocking probe... How can you not know that workers get ghostwalking when they mine? :|
also @plexa Can't load your replays(says the version is not available) and never heard of "scswitcher.exe", searched for it on google and on the TL boards both with 0 results, could you be a bit more specific? =)
From 20-30 PvP games I've played so far in release (not a lot, but my internet was out for the first 2 days the game was out), I think all but 1 have been either this 4 warp, pylon drop attack or an early 2 gate zealot rush.
It seems 9 pylon, 13 gate econ build is pretty much obsolete now, at least until a reliable counter is found that uses 9 pylon, 13 gate (if one is even possible) so I've basically adopted a policy of 2 gate zealot rush on smaller maps, and this 4 warpgate pylon drop on larger maps. I really don't see any other viable build at the moment except for maybe some funky realistically unviable forge-first build.
@Nihilnovi Im not sure if its in the release since I'm not at home and can't check, but scswitcher.exe should be in the starcraft 2 folder, its the program that loads a new Starcraft 2 copy when you try to run a replay from an older patch
My friend's neighbor just showed me this build and it's incredible just how effective this strategy is. He tells me he's only a 600 diamond player because of PvP and he beats 90% of the players just by doing this strategy. Needless to say, it's very difficult to stop.
I wall off my base and just cannon my entrance and leave a probe outside to scout and build my natural when I need it. Protects me against 3 gate zealot all-ins and the korean 4 warpgate.
As for an acutal build.. pfftt I got so sick of rock-paper-scissors for PvP mid-game that I just fuking cannon rush my opponent then get a fast void ray. If the cannons don't kill him then his tech will be so ass-backwards that he won't have a single stalker to deal with the void rays.
here is a cute way to counter 4 warpgate with ur own 4 warp gate which i have tried..nt sure how effective is it but i had some sucess with it.. So as the build go build a zealot first whenever you have the money and try to kill off the probe but any good protoss would not let the probe die so just park it outside his base or somewhere near and hidden..a korean warpgate rush means he will skip stalker and zealot and then throws down pylons in your base since you had ur zealot first your warpgate would surely be slower then his by like 5s or so depending on you and your enemy chrono boost on core*(Things such as using it late on core,forgetting or using too much of probes which usually wont happen to and good toss)*..Just as his warp in 4 zealots to your main get your hero zealot and go harass his probes he should have no army in his base he either use all his probes to attack your zealot or just do nothing or use half his workers either way try to keep harassing and keep the zealot alive. Now back to your base you warp in 4 zealot of your own and fight his zealot with the help of your probes which you would win..but his zealot would be there first so try not to lose as much probes as possible before your own 4 zealot warp in. So either way now he lose mining time/lose probes leading to a fail rush. i find this a lot better then trading base IMO.
On August 24 2010 01:57 RAeaLem wrote: here is a cute way to counter 4 warpgate with ur own 4 warp gate which i have tried..nt sure how effective is it but i had some sucess with it.. So as the build go build a zealot first whenever you have the money and try to kill off the probe but any good protoss would not let the probe die so just park it outside his base or somewhere near and hidden..a korean warpgate rush means he will skip stalker and zealot and then throws down pylons in your base since you had ur zealot first your warpgate would surely be slower then his by like 5s or so depending on you and your enemy chrono boost on core*(Things such as using it late on core,forgetting or using too much of probes which usually wont happen to and good toss)*..Just as his warp in 4 zealots to your main get your hero zealot and go harass his probes he should have no army in his base he either use all his probes to attack your zealot or just do nothing or use half his workers either way try to keep harassing and keep the zealot alive. Now back to your base you warp in 4 zealot of your own and fight his zealot with the help of your probes which you would win..but his zealot would be there first so try not to lose as much probes as possible before your own 4 zealot warp in. So either way now he lose mining time/lose probes leading to a fail rush. i find this a lot better then trading base IMO.
A better method would be to use the extra zealot to distract his zealots by running around your own mineral field without attacking as you warp 4 zealots in to kill HIS economy. That way if he wants to kill anything he has to focus fire. That's usually what I do when both players go Korean 4 warpgate and I typically end up with a 1-2 zealot advantage.
On July 29 2010 14:07 Rhodan wrote: From 20-30 PvP games I've played so far in release (not a lot, but my internet was out for the first 2 days the game was out), I think all but 1 have been either this 4 warp, pylon drop attack or an early 2 gate zealot rush.
It seems 9 pylon, 13 gate econ build is pretty much obsolete now, at least until a reliable counter is found that uses 9 pylon, 13 gate (if one is even possible) so I've basically adopted a policy of 2 gate zealot rush on smaller maps, and this 4 warpgate pylon drop on larger maps. I really don't see any other viable build at the moment except for maybe some funky realistically unviable forge-first build.
@Nihilnovi Im not sure if its in the release since I'm not at home and can't check, but scswitcher.exe should be in the starcraft 2 folder, its the program that loads a new Starcraft 2 copy when you try to run a replay from an older patch
I think a dual-stalker build might work well (9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 15 gate 15 core 16 pylon, chrono 2 stalkers when gate/core/pylon all finish roughly the same time) as having two stalkers at the ramp can kill the scouting probe fast enough it should only be able to warp in one pylon, if any. If you scout on the 9 pylon you can change gears if your opponent is going 2 gate zealot rush.
EPT
. Firstly, the initial pylons were poorly positioned making his initial zealots attack from an inferior position. Better positioned they could have done a lot more damage imo. Secondly, Tozar was able to kill a significant number of probes and indeed came out ahead after the initial exchange. Despite defending the 4warpgate, his opponent was still behind. And that really is the power of the build. 
maybe because you dont have the US maps? just EU versions? I don't know...
