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[D] And Then There's the Mothership...

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8145 Posts
May 21 2010 05:52 GMT
#1
And Then There's the Mothership...
[image loading]
The last worst unit in StarCraft 2



When the beta first came out, general consensus was that Protoss was the most polished of the 3 races. It had seemingly the most viable strategies, a strong non-linear macro mechanic, and it seemed that every unit had its own little mechanic to it, with basically 0 units that didn’t have something special to it. People like me raged about how Zerg were so horribly designed compared to Protoss, and that Protoss was so perfectly designed compared to Zerg. Today I feel like Protoss is still a bit ahead of Zerg, but they have one glaring problem, one party pooper ruining the parade; the Mothership.

In 2007 when StarCraft 2 was first announced, the Mothership was one of the big new units that Blizzard was showing off. It had a bunch of very powerful spells (I believe it was vortex that just instantly killed all air units, planet cracker that did a shitload of damage to ground, and time warp that was basically disruption web but real fancy looking). It was hyped as a super unit that was key to protoss late game play and had the gimmick of "being so mighty that there can only be one mothership at a time on the battlefield!" 3 Years later when the beta first came out, it was drastically different. It was basically just a pretty good base defender (albeit very very expensive) and anti-harass unit. The wormhole transit allowed it to cover all your expansions at any moment and so was removed because it made protoss too strong vs harass. It was replaced with Mass Recall and now we have the big flying pylon-heart-of-a-unit that is the modern Mothership.

[image loading]

Remember that? That shit was cool!


The Mothership requires a fleet beacon, costs 400/400, takes up a whopping 8 supply (the most in the game), takes 160 in-game seconds to build and there can only ever be 1 mothership at a time. It has 350 hp and 350 shields, it does 6x6=36 damage. It cloaks all units and buildings around it within a radius of 5 and has 2 spells: Vortex and Mass Recall. It is essentially just a super Arbitor except for the eye-gougingly slow speed it has.

The biggest problem with the Mothership balance-wise is that it costs a ton of money, requires a tech pattern that is never used, takes forever to build, and serves no crucial role in a standard protoss army composition. Currently the Mothership is so slow that it can only really be used defensively, supposedly at one's most vulnerable expansion (and assuming that you actually want to spend that much money for an 8 supply unit to just sit at an expansion all day). Both of its spell basically serve the same defensive purpose; buy time for your army to come back to the location of the mothership and defend (either by vortexing the attacking force or recalling your army back home). Offensively, Vortex and Mass Recall overlap with other Protoss abilities far too much (and are actually in fact less interesting and engaging from a gameplay perspective).

Vortex is basically just like Stasis from Brood War (although different "enough" with how any unit that walks into it becomes "stasised" until it's over), with the main goal of breaking up the opponents army so you don't have to fight it all at once. Unfortunately for Vortex fanboys, Forcefield largely serves the same purpose, and is a far far more interesting and engaging spell in just about every way. While Vortex is a simple "point and shoot" spell like psi storm, Forcefield requires much more APM and thought behind its use to be effective. Every good Protoss always makes several sentries in their army and forcefields in every battle (forcefield also has the added versatility of being able to block ramps and chokes quite easily). To sum it up: Forcefield serves the same purpose of Vortex but has more depth to it making it serve even more roles and be harder (funner) to use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C_rK5sCmR4
This was the only good thing about the Mothership until Patch 12


Recall in Brood War allowed Protoss to be mobile and attack Terran from any place on the map. In SC2, not counting Mass Recall, Protoss is already far more mobile than they were in BW. Not just because of warp-in (which is actually the biggest reason Protoss is so mobile now), but the average protoss army is much faster than it was in Brood War, Colossi and Stalkers can move up cliffs, and it's just a lot easier to get your army places faster in general due to better pathfinding and improved UI. As an offensive spell, Mass Recall is not only unneeded, but entirely unfeasible vs a competent opponent when considering the Mothership's snail-like speed. Defensively Mass Recall overlaps with warping-in reinforcements to any danger zone, and it (defensive warp-in) is something that every protoss does in every match-up and doesn't cost 400/400.

From a design standpoint, the Mothership is one of my biggest letdowns in SC2. Originally designed to be a super unit capable of changing the tide of the battle and being a crucial part of any late game protoss army, the Mothership had several highly original spells that have since been either removed or changed drastically or moved to other units, and currently is one of the most unoriginal and boring units in the game. When I first saw that there could only be one Mothership at a time, I thought (besides that "Mothership" is a horribly lame name and I STILL can't believe that it's still called that!) that it was a horrible idea that was completely "un-StarCraftey" and some stupid idea stolen from Command and Conquer or one of those “other” RTSs. As time passed though I thought it could be a neat idea. It definitely makes Protoss more unique from the other races, and if done right it could be really cool. Unfortunately I subscribe to the idea that the Mothership right now does NOT do it right and not only is a useless unit, but a horrible missed opportunity to make a really cool unit.

If the Mothership truly was what it was originally designed to be (a large super unit that was key to Protoss lategame), it would allow for several different playstyles and be accessible in the late game and also a viable follow-up to several early and mid-game strategies. I believe the Mothership should be able to serve several (or at least more than ONE) different roles in the late game (either as a great support unit AND a great defensive unit, or at least a decent one of each), and to truly make the investment to get a Mothership worth it.

[image loading]
Sorry Blizzard but no one does this outside of the Bronze League and FFA


Here is a small list of suggestions (some small some large) to help make the Mothership something other than the lamest unit in the game:

- the easiest and laziest way to fix the Mothership is to just boost its speed and lower its costs. It would still just be a fat Arbitor and boring gameplay-wise but at least it can properly support the main army with Vortex/cloak and have SOME potential to successfully pull off an offensive recall.

- to remain a primarily defensive unit, the Mothership should be made available earlier in the tech tree (probably just once stargate is out, although that just feels really really weird and could be slightly IMBA without more stats changing). I'd feel easier about taking quicker expansion if I could have a mothership out in time to actually help defend it.

- Ideally both of the Mothership's spells should be replaced with something else. I know it's pretty dumb to just say "well it should have 2-3 new spells that are awesome and balanced and interesting!" But really that's what it needs lol. I would settle for just the removal of Mass Recall and something else to replace it (I dont want to just come up with 10 different specific Mothership spell ideas and list them all because that isn't really what this thread is about, although it is very fun to do that sorta thing and I encourage you to name some of your own ideas in the thread if you want).

[image loading]
The Mothership can be cool again!


The Mothership is a broken unit both balance-wise and design-wise, horribly ineffective in any game and horribly uninteresting in every respect. If the Mothership is not somehow reworked before the final game is released in July, it will truly be a great tragedy and a glaring scar on the Protoss race. There is still time left to fix this unit with so much potential and even if Blizzard uses none of my suggestions, I really hope that they somehow address the issue of the Mothership before release, as it truly is in my opinion the last great "horrible unit" in StarCraft 2.
Free Palestine
hasuprotoss
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States4612 Posts
May 21 2010 06:11 GMT
#2
But then there won't be anything like the Queen from BW... =[
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?viewdays=0&show_part=5 <--- Articles Section on TL
Hyperion2010
Profile Joined April 2010
United States122 Posts
May 21 2010 06:19 GMT
#3
I wish they would just give the arbiters a shot for 1 or 2 patches and see what happened ;_; isnt that the point of beta? Arbiters were 1000x cooler than ANY current protoss air unit (scratch that, any air unit in the game).
My waifu for aiur!
Jadix
Profile Joined September 2004
United States134 Posts
May 21 2010 06:19 GMT
#4
As a zerg i just see them as HUGE infestor targets
Failsafe
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States1298 Posts
May 21 2010 06:27 GMT
#5
We really don't know anything about the Mothership at the moment because the game hasn't progressed that far. Although I think you've done a good job making this thread coherent, I'm afraid that you're addressing a problem that we don't know is actually a problem. We don't have any real understanding of SC2 late game. I do disagree with you as to the power of the Mothership's abilities, especially given what we're seeing about patch 13. We know that Massive units will be able to dispel Force Fields by simply walking over them, so the Vortex will certainly be superior in that regard. Moreover, Vortex is cast by a single unit and has a huge area of effect, so it's also superior for that. It's hard to argue that there's a better use of 400/400/8 in the game, I think
MrBitter: Phoenixes... They're like flying hellions. Always cost efficient.
Failsafe
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States1298 Posts
May 21 2010 06:28 GMT
#6
On May 21 2010 15:19 Hyperion2010 wrote:
I wish they would just give the arbiters a shot for 1 or 2 patches and see what happened ;_; isnt that the point of beta? Arbiters were 1000x cooler than ANY current protoss air unit (scratch that, any air unit in the game).


Yeah, it's weird to speculate why a super intelligent race would get rid of their best unit. What kind of Lore explains that? :o
MrBitter: Phoenixes... They're like flying hellions. Always cost efficient.
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
May 21 2010 06:35 GMT
#7
--- Nuked ---
Skvid
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Lithuania751 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-21 06:38:36
May 21 2010 06:35 GMT
#8
I have never encountered a mothership in my 250 games... i don't think i saw any carriers either. Those 2 units are the most underused units in the game. A shame really, just like you i really like the "idea" behind them, but they are unpractical... mayyybe in other than 1v1 modes, but having units that don't work in 1v1 while they do work in other modes would be just silly.

Heres a fun ability i thought of while reading this article:
Time arc (cheezy much?): Creates a wide arc (stationary) in front of the mothership, all projectiles (projectiles = whatever point defense drone works on) are slowed to a full stop and are "locked" for X direction, once duration runs out the projectiles instantly regain their usual velocity and hit their previosly intended targets IF they are still in range.

What this does: during a big fight this would work as a big point defense drone, nullifying incoming damage on your army, but once it runs out there would be a risk of loosing a bunch of units due to insane spike damage from all those previously "locked" projectiles,

p.s I wish they didn't removed pheonix's overcharge and reaper's d-8 (or whatever the number was) charges.
USn
Profile Joined March 2010
United States376 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-21 06:39:55
May 21 2010 06:39 GMT
#9
On May 21 2010 15:27 Failsafe wrote:It's hard to argue that there's a better use of 400/400/8 in the game, I think


It's effectively 700/500/8 since you need a fleet beacon, which also adds an extra 60 production time... in it's current state I can think of a lottttttttt of things better than that.
PoD
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada45 Posts
May 21 2010 06:41 GMT
#10
I personally think that every Nexus should be allowed to build 1 Mother Ship. Maybe reduce the build time, cost and health so they are easier to get. In any given game this will give you 2+ Mother Ships to do Recall attacks with.
SSDD we all die in the end so que sera sera.
Skvid
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Lithuania751 Posts
May 21 2010 06:42 GMT
#11
On May 21 2010 15:27 Failsafe wrote:
We really don't know anything about the Mothership at the moment because the game hasn't progressed that far. Although I think you've done a good job making this thread coherent, I'm afraid that you're addressing a problem that we don't know is actually a problem. We don't have any real understanding of SC2 late game. I do disagree with you as to the power of the Mothership's abilities, especially given what we're seeing about patch 13. We know that Massive units will be able to dispel Force Fields by simply walking over them, so the Vortex will certainly be superior in that regard. Moreover, Vortex is cast by a single unit and has a huge area of effect, so it's also superior for that. It's hard to argue that there's a better use of 400/400/8 in the game, I think


While i agree that sc2's late-game involving top-tier units is largely unexplored, i don't think that's the case with mothership, i cant see how this unit can be "solved" to become usefull, even in highly situational cases.
Chen
Profile Joined June 2009
United States6344 Posts
May 21 2010 06:44 GMT
#12
On May 21 2010 15:27 Failsafe wrote:
We really don't know anything about the Mothership at the moment because the game hasn't progressed that far. Although I think you've done a good job making this thread coherent, I'm afraid that you're addressing a problem that we don't know is actually a problem. We don't have any real understanding of SC2 late game. I do disagree with you as to the power of the Mothership's abilities, especially given what we're seeing about patch 13. We know that Massive units will be able to dispel Force Fields by simply walking over them, so the Vortex will certainly be superior in that regard. Moreover, Vortex is cast by a single unit and has a huge area of effect, so it's also superior for that. It's hard to argue that there's a better use of 400/400/8 in the game, I think

opponent runs all units into vortex. you just wasted 100 energy and basically wasted a 700/600 8 supply unit.
Tsagacity
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States2124 Posts
May 21 2010 06:45 GMT
#13
I've played at least 500 games since the start of beta and have never seen the mothership
"Everyone worse than me at video games is a noob. Everyone better than me doesn't have a life."
PoD
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada45 Posts
May 21 2010 06:45 GMT
#14
Also giving them back Time Warp and Ground Breaker (whatever it was called) would also be awesome. Even if it meant making them cost more.
SSDD we all die in the end so que sera sera.
Denarius Jay
Profile Joined May 2010
42 Posts
May 21 2010 06:48 GMT
#15
The Mothership should just be removed. It literally is joke unit now - its that unit that will be used on money maps and UMS and thats it. I as well have played 150+ games and have run into the mothership maybe 5 times, and all 5 times it was demolished within seconds by tier 1 and 2 units. I really don't understand the point to the unit, its incredibly stupid.
State thy biding - Stalker
JaspluR
Profile Joined April 2010
Australia174 Posts
May 21 2010 06:50 GMT
#16
ive played over 500 games since i got the beta and can say ive used it once to try it out and mass recall to an island where my opponent was turtling (i already won the game)
but yeah its a slow unit (has been buffed a bit) and it really sucks, almost 3 minutes build time (carriers also take ages lol 2 mins i think) and so much food/mins/gas for a unit that dies so quick to focus fire. It can even be mind controlled i would NEVER get one against zerg (if i was to ever build one anyway rofl)
i think it is great as a defensive role though if its cost was lowered
but i would be awesome if we had it earlier to defend a fastish expo, terrans have PF i want something cool like that to make our expos a lil harder to break
hellokitty[hk]
Profile Joined June 2009
United States1309 Posts
May 21 2010 06:51 GMT
#17
Giving them the old attack animation would be the coolest. Stupid laser looks like a colossus but not as cool.
People are imbeciles, lucky thing god made cats.
igotmyown
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States4291 Posts
May 21 2010 06:56 GMT
#18
People forget that arbiters weren't popular for a long time. I'm not saying that the mothership is good/doesn't need a buff, but in the vein of Artosis' zerg were overnerfed argument, protoss has a lot of units, and it's going to take awhile to figure out how some of the higher tech ones, especially the mothership, fit in.
OperationMeatshield
Profile Joined April 2010
10 Posts
May 21 2010 07:07 GMT
#19
One thing I want on the mothership is for it to constantly produce a powerfield beneath it. This would be awesome as its mere presence would allow you to reinforce your force in a late game battle. Also there would be fun strats of building the mothership than using it to setup a forward control point with cannons and a constant stream of reinforcements.

I think adding a powerfield would also make it seem more high tech, more advanced, like all protoss units are supposed to be.
What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations.
Tankbusta
Profile Joined May 2010
United States109 Posts
May 21 2010 07:08 GMT
#20
I liked the idea of the Star Relic much more

The Mothership should indeed be reworked. Perhaps the Protoss do not need another caster unit, seeing as the high templar and sentry do those jobs very well, so maybe the role should be focused elsewhere. With that in mind, I would be interested in seeing it turned into an air support unit so we can actually see a purpose for making carriers. Maybe an air-only AoE shield recharge? Increases speed of all air units nearby? Not very interesting, but I can't think of anything dynamic that would would a good amount of APM and thought off the top of my head.

Then again, maybe the mothership shouldn't need something so intensive? After all, the Medic concept is very simple and yet ithey are what allowed marines to be the beasts they are in BW
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