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On May 22 2010 02:28 shalafiend wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 01:55 QuothTheRaven wrote:
I don't see what's wrong with having a single unit in the Protoss arsenal that's a specialty unit and rarely sees gameplay use. The rarity of it only makes it that much more exciting and memorable when we do see it. wtf...has this guy been reading the thread at all.. how is a Huge SLOW ASS moving unit going to make gameplay any more exciting. yes..vortex, mass recal, and cloak...- spells that will come into effect as your mothership slowly inches its way across the map...and ONLY then.. right, i see you moving out underneath your giant bulls eye of a saucer: i can..focus fire it and own it in 1 second flat. you manage to use your spells (i will run into the vortex, or i will run away from you) i can assume you're stupid, and just attack at another position forcing you to either pull back your whole army, and leaving your slow saucer desperately flying back to catch up..where i will snipe it. the mothership is rare -cause it is a overnerfed, slow, useless unit that you don't get unless you're already winning and want to Bm.
I think you misinterpret me. I know that it's extremely rare, and not used very often at the high levels. But that makes it more exciting when we see it: I still remember WhiteRa's usage of it vs. TLO in the TLI 1 finals, because it was such an extraordinary thing for him to build a mothership and use it; likewise I remember KHB's game vs. Artosis where he went 1-base mothership rush (before the nerfs), because again it was a really wacky and unorthodox strategy. Everyone loves the Valkyrie and the Queen (SCBW version) or medics blinding shuttles/observers (Sea.Really) because they're so rare that when you see them it's really something special (ok, the Valk has become a lot more standard in TvZ mech these days, but when T's first started using it with mech playstyles it was a really big deal).
Moreover I'd say that Protoss armies are exciting enough with a good amount of diversity that they don't desperately need to have 1 more "standard, viable" unit in their composition, which allows for the mothership to remain as a niche specialty unit without severely damaging how interesting it is to play as or against Protoss.
Also I think we just haven't had enough time to see if it has solid uses in certain playstyles / build orders. You for example mention that the mothership is not particularly effective at pushing and attacking due to its extremely slow speed--but maybe it has interesting uses that aren't offensive. NonY for example has spoken a few times about using the mothership as an extremely effective expansion defender, and putting the unit to really good use in that way--but we haven't seen it much yet because no one has had the time or experience to play around with it enough and get a feel for whether or not it's viable.
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On May 22 2010 01:11 phyvo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:15 PGHammer wrote:On May 21 2010 23:06 Sueco wrote:
There is also a hilarious design fail with the mothership.
It's at unique support vessel, but it cloaks anything near it so it gets inmediatly focused. I can understand running that risk with arbiters, you could make several, but when its a large, expensive, slow unit with long build time, mass cloak is even helping it fail.
Solution: First, give it back its old attack. The blue missiles are FAR cooler than blue beams. Second, fire the fool who made that change. Now give it a longer attack range so it can work like a pseudo-broodlord and do its supporting job without getting focused. Remove cloak. Keep its spells but reduce their cost/power. Make it a bit cheaper/faster to get. Make it move a bit faster
The idea is to make it a viable support unit for a warpgate army, like the arbiter once was. For that it needs to come a bit earlier and have bit a longer range, and be able to use its abilities more often since you can't spam motherships. The Mothership *is* a viable support unit for a WarpGate army (or ground forces shuttled/blinked in); however, how many players use it that way (or, more telling, get to use it that way)? Also, that is the Mothership's *job* (to collect all the attention); this was the same job the Arbiter had. The Arbiter wasn't very fast, either; it was slower than other air units (especially the Carrier and Shuttle). The Mothership has heavier shielding than the Arbiter because it will get a LOT of attention due to its sheer size; however, that same size means it has the same amount of cloaking area as four Arbiters. The issue is that it takes a boatload of resources (both minerals and gas) to build Mom; it also takes a ton of time. And, if you are playing against a Protoss player, and you aren't rushed early, you very well figure that he may be building up forces for a combined assault, with Mom invited along to help protect the "kids" (other air and ground forces). Because of that early video showing what the Mothership is capable of (most of those capabilities are still there, even with all the nerfing), even without the wormhole nexus, a Mothership as part of a push can still create a ton of havoc. And no player wants to be on the wrong end of that havoc. ( I play Protoss exclusively, and I've noticed that I'm getting rushed just about *constantly*; in my qualifying matches, my only win was when I wasn't rushed.) I think that rushes v. Protoss are (at least in SC2) more a case of "fear of Mom"...and having had a chance to use the Mothership as intended (as a super-sized Arbiter), I can see why. The arbiter's job wasn't to "collect the attention". In SC1 the arbiter's job was to allow protoss units to close the distance to the entrenched siege tanks by effectively decreasing their range. Terrans would have to use positioning, scans, turrets, and later sci vessels to regain their siege tanks' range advantage, as well as goliaths to keep arbiter count low. Arbiters also played a key role in separating the Terran army with good stasis usage, which had to be countered with EMP. Now compare this to the mothership: Vortex can't effectively split the army unless there's high templar support for AoE, because vs a MMMG ball they'll all just run into the vortex. The best you can get out of that is a surround with zealots before the battle ensues Unless Terran is going tanks, cloak doesn't serve the same function. It's more like using DTs because vs a MMMG ball a few ravens or a scan will give enough sight for the infantry to fire using most of their range. You also, in an earlier post, suggested Show nested quote +(ideally, you should use a Mothership like you would an Arbiter, with Carriers/Void Rays/Phoenix, along with a mix of ground units; if you have to, use Warp Pylons to carry the ground forces along to a staging area just outside the opponent's base; offload the ground forces just outside, and come in low and slow with the whole massive force) I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. Yes, arbiter + carrier is a pretty potent combination lateltaelatelate game. But I can't recall that many pro-games where I ever saw that in action. Maybe... one. Arbiters were mainly used for Protoss ground forces as I detailed above. As for using the mothership with carriers/void rays/pheonix, that's just a horrible idea. On the one hand, Zerg has an easy counter to mothership: neural parasite. So why bother making the mothership when it will never be yours anyways. Terran has an easy counter to all protoss air: Vikings. Terran is already going to be getting vikings to counter your mothership, the last thing you need to be doing is encouraging him to build even more so that your mothership and half of your army all go down like paperweights. Going all ground just seems to me to be a better option, since they buffer vs your opponent's ground, are not countered by the vikings shooting down your mothership, and make more storms available in case your opponent runs into a vortex. This was sort of the situation in thelittleone vs white-ra, thelittleone had mainly marine/medivac and white-ra had a ground force with storm. However, when white-ra lost all his templar at the end of the game his vortex did nothing for him and thelittleone won. The way you describe things seems to me to indicate that while you've had success with your strategy, it's mostly because your opponents never see motherships and so have no idea what the crap they should do. I just don't think motherships in their current state will ever be able to hold up to scrutiny.
And just how did the Arbiter manage that task you so correctly gave it? It cloaked anything (in fact, everything) else within range; unless you had a cloak detector, the Arbiter is all you'd see. (That was why Missile Turrets made for a great anti-Arbie defense.). Also, the Medivac is a glorified shuttlecraft that functions as a mobile sickbay; you need other air units in addition to the ground units. (In fact, Battlecruisers or even Hellions would have made a great balancing addition.) Go back and look at the replay I posted (of mine) at Desert Oasis; my mistake with Mothership deployment wasn't that I didn't give it enough air cover; I lost the Mothership to ground-based defenses (specifically, to Archons) because I employed no ground troops. Had I followed my own later post and added a proper ground assault-force mix (Stalkers/Immortals/Colossi/Dark Templar, with possibly some Zealots and Archons thrown in), I could have ended things much sooner. (In short, a multi-faceted defense will squish a one-dimensional attack or push, as thelittleone proved against white-ra, who had no air cover.)
As you yourself pointed out, Arbiters in BW were primarily used with *ground* forces, as opposed to Carriers (though they are indeed useful as part of a Carrier/Shuttle-based assault force in BW or even original SC). With both Terrans and Zerg, though, we're seeing things devolve into cheese/harass/spam (especially in the early game); the Protoss, however, can only counter that to an extent with ground forces (Stalkers primarily), as their air units are mostly either too expensive, too specialized, or both. (While you can spam Zealots, it makes a lot more sense to spam Stalkers, as they have better shields and more firepower than Zealots.) Terrans can build air units quicker than Protoss, and the Zerg are faster still (in fact, they typically start with an Overlord), which is why Medivac/Marine rushing can work early against the Protoss (especially if the P player concentrated on Photon Cannon *or* Stalkers, as opposed to a mix of both for defense). In fact, you just pointed out why I prefer a mixed assault (air and ground units) and mixed defenses; however, success using spam/cheese as opposed to a *proper* defense or even attack leads to mass-of-unit devolution, and I'd really rather NOT see SC2 head that way.
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Allow one Mothership per Nexus and make it so Vortex only instantly captures the units and doesn't continually do it over the duration. Then tweak it's damage giving it independent Air to Ground and Air to Air attacks. Then match the DPS/Cost efficiency with a Battlecruiser in terms of boosting the damage. I honestly think that's all it needs.
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It's fine as it is. As a Protoss player both in SC2 and in BW, I must say I have been missing the great utility of the scout as a humiliation unit. The mothership serves that role perfectly...no, it does it even better. Instead of paying 275/125 for a worthless unit, I can pay 400/400 for an even more worthless unit! The possibilities for humiliation are endless!
But then again...after all the recent patches I probably won't be winning many games as Protoss so...maybe my point is moot :[
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On May 22 2010 02:43 QuothTheRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 02:28 shalafiend wrote:On May 22 2010 01:55 QuothTheRaven wrote:
I don't see what's wrong with having a single unit in the Protoss arsenal that's a specialty unit and rarely sees gameplay use. The rarity of it only makes it that much more exciting and memorable when we do see it. wtf...has this guy been reading the thread at all.. how is a Huge SLOW ASS moving unit going to make gameplay any more exciting. yes..vortex, mass recal, and cloak...- spells that will come into effect as your mothership slowly inches its way across the map...and ONLY then.. right, i see you moving out underneath your giant bulls eye of a saucer: i can..focus fire it and own it in 1 second flat. you manage to use your spells (i will run into the vortex, or i will run away from you) i can assume you're stupid, and just attack at another position forcing you to either pull back your whole army, and leaving your slow saucer desperately flying back to catch up..where i will snipe it. the mothership is rare -cause it is a overnerfed, slow, useless unit that you don't get unless you're already winning and want to Bm. I think you misinterpret me. I know that it's extremely rare, and not used very often at the high levels. But that makes it more exciting when we see it: I still remember WhiteRa's usage of it vs. TLO in the TLI 1 finals, because it was such an extraordinary thing for him to build a mothership and use it; likewise I remember KHB's game vs. Artosis where he went 1-base mothership rush (before the nerfs), because again it was a really wacky and unorthodox strategy. Everyone loves the Valkyrie and the Queen (SCBW version) or medics blinding shuttles/observers (Sea.Really) because they're so rare that when you see them it's really something special (ok, the Valk has become a lot more standard in TvZ mech these days, but when T's first started using it with mech playstyles it was a really big deal). Moreover I'd say that Protoss armies are exciting enough with a good amount of diversity that they don't desperately need to have 1 more "standard, viable" unit in their composition, which allows for the mothership to remain as a niche specialty unit without severely damaging how interesting it is to play as or against Protoss. Also I think we just haven't had enough time to see if it has solid uses in certain playstyles / build orders. You for example mention that the mothership is not particularly effective at pushing and attacking due to its extremely slow speed--but maybe it has interesting uses that aren't offensive. NonY for example has spoken a few times about using the mothership as an extremely effective expansion defender, and putting the unit to really good use in that way--but we haven't seen it much yet because no one has had the time or experience to play around with it enough and get a feel for whether or not it's viable.
Again, deploying the Mothership by itself (or even just with only other air units). either offensively or defensively, is almost always a bad move. (However, that can be said about darn near every unit type, even the Battlecruiser or post-nerf Roach, though not as much.) The issue is time and a strong solid economy, as building a Mothership eats a lot of both. Because of the successes players are having with early spamming/cheese, we aren't seeing much in the way of proper non-spamming assaults by any race. (In fact, I doubt we'll see it until SC2 ships, and we see some campaign/SP skirmish; unless someone has some coop replays...)
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Ideas+Comments
Vortex is good because it affects air units (and massive units) as opposed to FF)
To Differentiate from the Arbiter
Replace Cloaking field with Recharge Field (all protoss units+buildings recharge shields at a fast rate while inside the field regardess of being in combat or not)... posibly make this an energy requiring timed ability (like the Guardian Shield
Replace Mass Recall with Mass Teleport (the mothership and all allied units nearby (possibly include enemy units) are teleported to an allied Protoss building... make it cost ~125 (ie you only do it once)... possibly give it a delay, or even limit it to an allied Nexus. (change the name back to Wormhole Transit...but the increased cost and taking other units with it would be interesting.
This makes the Proxy Pylon dangerous (unless one goes with the Nexus only.
To further make the Mothership interesting, give the Nexuses a version of Argus link, so they can beam power to the Mothership (limit the rate and or ratio if it needs a nerf)... the Mothership would probably be the caster that would most benefit from extra energy. (since you can't build extras)
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Russian Federation57 Posts
Well guys, as i think there are one very easy and obvious way to use mothership:
A) It is a late game unit, at that period of game the winner decided in one big battle.
B) In SC2 units stays very close to each other, so mothership can remove half ot them from the battlefield by his spell.
C) Well, ok, mothership is expensive, so protoss forces will be like 90% of smth of can be without mothership.
D) So in battle, after spelcast, your 90% army >> 50% eneme arme and kill it with like 15% loses. After that, your 75% army > other 50% of enemy army.
You win the battle, GG mothership.
What do you think?
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On May 22 2010 02:51 Ryuu314 wrote:
It's fine as it is. As a Protoss player both in SC2 and in BW, I must say I have been missing the great utility of the scout as a humiliation unit. The mothership serves that role perfectly...no, it does it even better. Instead of paying 275/125 for a worthless unit, I can pay 400/400 for an even more worthless unit! The possibilities for humiliation are endless!
But then again...after all the recent patches I probably won't be winning many games as Protoss so...maybe my point is moot :[
The Protoss have *always* had the most expensive (in terms of resources) units and tech tree; this was true in original SC, and neither BW or SC2 have changed this rubric. However, with the artificial unit cap (yes; SC/BW had one) having gone the way of Aiur and the Dragoon, we are seeing the "invasion of the Wisconsonians and Hawaiians". (Yes; that's a hint.)
With these two groups invading, the cost of Protoss units (as opposed to Terran and Zerg counterparts) means that, more often than not, the Protoss is on the wrong side of economic warfare vs. either Terrans or Zerg (and that's given identical amounts of minerals and gas), especially with no unit caps. Therefore, the Protoss have to expand earlier than either Terrans or Zerg; however, their unit cost makes that downright tough to do. If they aren't going to lower Protoss unit costs (especially early-game ground and air units/structures, such as Gateways/Warpgates, Stargates, Forges, and Cybernetics Cores), then those same units need buffing in some way to counterbalance the unit-sea tactics that are so common now.
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Mothership should get a siege mode and become faster. Protoss is mobile enough as is. The Mothership can signify a transition into a positional mass combat playstyle. Basically, a problem with the mothership that a fast mothership (say, fast enough to harass and easily run away) would be absurdly obnoxious, but a super slow mothership is super useless. Having a deployed mode would solve both of these problems in an elegant fashion. In particular, having a deployed mode with some battlefield presence would retain the Mothership's usefulness after having dropped the first (unreliable) vortex, or we could throw that ability out entirely. Finally, it should stop being killed in three seconds by a bunch of hydralisks because that's really lame.
Sample implementation:
+ Show Spoiler +Fleet Beacon - 400/400 - Great Celestial Fleet - Unlocks deployed mode for the Mothership. Halves capital ship construction time.
Deployed Mode - The Mothership takes eight seconds to deploy unwieldy defensive arrays.
- Passive
- Restoration Field - Units near a deployed Mothership's power field regenerate 2 shield per second to a maximum of twenty bonus shield (begins to decay upon leaving the field).
- Psionic Missile Battery - A deployed Motherships switches its primary from the mobile laser batteries to six roboteching splash-damage missile launchers.
- Active
- Mass Recall - Exactly what it says on the tin.
- Feedback Web - The Mothership gains damage return for five seconds.
Justification: The Mothership needs some battlefield AOE presence, hence the restoration field and introduction of AOE. It should also be slightly harder to instantly snipe to death (well, it's just as easy, but it'll cost you.) Also, it's slow as hell and that's really stupid, but if it became too fast it would be really obnoxious. Having a reasonable speed but requiring it to be immobile to gain great benefits, I think, would be a fine compromise.
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On May 22 2010 03:36 EmeraldSparks wrote:Mothership should get a siege mode and become faster. Protoss is mobile enough as is. The Mothership can signify a transition into a positional mass combat playstyle. Basically, a problem with the mothership that a fast mothership (say, fast enough to harass and easily run away) would be absurdly obnoxious, but a super slow mothership is super useless. Having a deployed mode would solve both of these problems in an elegant fashion. In particular, having a deployed mode with some battlefield presence would retain the Mothership's usefulness after having dropped the first (unreliable) vortex, or we could throw that ability out entirely. Finally, it should stop being killed in three seconds by a bunch of hydralisks because that's really lame. Sample implementation: + Show Spoiler +Fleet Beacon - 400/400 - Great Celestial Fleet - Unlocks deployed mode for the Mothership. Halves capital ship construction time.
Deployed Mode - The Mothership takes eight seconds to deploy unwieldy defensive arrays.
- Passive
- Restoration Field - Units near a deployed Mothership's power field regenerate 2 shield per second to a maximum of twenty bonus shield (begins to decay upon leaving the field).
- Psionic Missile Battery - A deployed Motherships switches its primary from the mobile laser batteries to six roboteching splash-damage missile launchers.
- Active
- Mass Recall - Exactly what it says on the tin.
- Feedback Web - The Mothership gains damage return for five seconds.
Justification: The Mothership needs some battlefield AOE presence, hence the restoration field and introduction of AOE. It should also be slightly harder to instantly snipe to death (well, it's just as easy, but it'll cost you.) Also, it's slow as hell and that's really stupid, but if it became too fast it would be really obnoxious. Having a reasonable speed but requiring it to be immobile to gain great benefits, I think, would be a fine compromise.
This actually seems like a very well thought out idea. I like it. Something of this nature really should be added to the Mothership. If not this some kind of abilities that make it more than a once in a blue moon type (gimmicky) unit and something viable for more than a fast retreat option for your army, or as a very short-live army meat-shield (due to being only target when everything is cloaked).
Feedback Web in particular seems like the perfect spell for the Mothership even if it is not implemented with a deploy/transit mode. It's a very big target so having this ability (and probably a bit longer duration like 15-20 seconds) would mean for the opponent, sure you can focus down the Mothership and get rid of it, but your army will take huge damage across the board when this ability is up (a very clear animation would need to be added to make it evident the Mothership is using the Web) - also a cap on how many units can be hit with it simultaneously.
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In all my games i have seen a mothership maybe... once. and it acomplished nothing at all (well, the "die" anymation is kinda cool so it's a plus).
Maybe this has already been said but, the fact that your one mothership, by the time it comes out will get hard hard hard countered by enemy "normal" tech is what really seals the deal for it.
what i'm talking about is that terrans will certainly have a gosth out to emp it, toss can feedback it with templars and zergs can MC it. all those units are present in normal tech paths and counter perfectly the one unit you will get from your unortodoxe (and costly) tech path
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Does anyone else think it's a problem with fleet beacon and not a problem quite so much with the mothership?
400/400/8 really isn't that bad for what the mothership offers, maybe the supply and cost could be better (400/300/6?), but it's not that bad. The problem is that's NOT what you are paying. Most Protoss never need a fleet beacon, you only need one for void ray upgrade if I'm not mistaken (or lol carriers). So you effectively have to pay 700/600 for a mothership. If people could just pop out a Mothership for 400/400/8 we might see that happen even with the current mothership balance.
This is something that should be solved in steps. Step 1 is making fleet beacons viable. Once people are making fleet beacons anyways we then can get a better judgement on what Motherships are like.
If the Mothership does have to be changed, I'd rather see it be cheaper or more durable rather than more powerful. Super uber units aren't fun for anyone except noobs.
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As soon as I see someone going carriers or mothership, it's like I've already won the game. I just spam corruptors and once there are 16+ w/ more coming, there isn't much protoss can do with just an air army.
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On May 22 2010 02:46 PGHammer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 01:11 phyvo wrote:On May 22 2010 00:15 PGHammer wrote:On May 21 2010 23:06 Sueco wrote:
There is also a hilarious design fail with the mothership.
It's at unique support vessel, but it cloaks anything near it so it gets inmediatly focused. I can understand running that risk with arbiters, you could make several, but when its a large, expensive, slow unit with long build time, mass cloak is even helping it fail.
Solution: First, give it back its old attack. The blue missiles are FAR cooler than blue beams. Second, fire the fool who made that change. Now give it a longer attack range so it can work like a pseudo-broodlord and do its supporting job without getting focused. Remove cloak. Keep its spells but reduce their cost/power. Make it a bit cheaper/faster to get. Make it move a bit faster
The idea is to make it a viable support unit for a warpgate army, like the arbiter once was. For that it needs to come a bit earlier and have bit a longer range, and be able to use its abilities more often since you can't spam motherships. The Mothership *is* a viable support unit for a WarpGate army (or ground forces shuttled/blinked in); however, how many players use it that way (or, more telling, get to use it that way)? Also, that is the Mothership's *job* (to collect all the attention); this was the same job the Arbiter had. The Arbiter wasn't very fast, either; it was slower than other air units (especially the Carrier and Shuttle). The Mothership has heavier shielding than the Arbiter because it will get a LOT of attention due to its sheer size; however, that same size means it has the same amount of cloaking area as four Arbiters. The issue is that it takes a boatload of resources (both minerals and gas) to build Mom; it also takes a ton of time. And, if you are playing against a Protoss player, and you aren't rushed early, you very well figure that he may be building up forces for a combined assault, with Mom invited along to help protect the "kids" (other air and ground forces). Because of that early video showing what the Mothership is capable of (most of those capabilities are still there, even with all the nerfing), even without the wormhole nexus, a Mothership as part of a push can still create a ton of havoc. And no player wants to be on the wrong end of that havoc. ( I play Protoss exclusively, and I've noticed that I'm getting rushed just about *constantly*; in my qualifying matches, my only win was when I wasn't rushed.) I think that rushes v. Protoss are (at least in SC2) more a case of "fear of Mom"...and having had a chance to use the Mothership as intended (as a super-sized Arbiter), I can see why. The arbiter's job wasn't to "collect the attention". In SC1 the arbiter's job was to allow protoss units to close the distance to the entrenched siege tanks by effectively decreasing their range. Terrans would have to use positioning, scans, turrets, and later sci vessels to regain their siege tanks' range advantage, as well as goliaths to keep arbiter count low. Arbiters also played a key role in separating the Terran army with good stasis usage, which had to be countered with EMP. Now compare this to the mothership: Vortex can't effectively split the army unless there's high templar support for AoE, because vs a MMMG ball they'll all just run into the vortex. The best you can get out of that is a surround with zealots before the battle ensues Unless Terran is going tanks, cloak doesn't serve the same function. It's more like using DTs because vs a MMMG ball a few ravens or a scan will give enough sight for the infantry to fire using most of their range. You also, in an earlier post, suggested (ideally, you should use a Mothership like you would an Arbiter, with Carriers/Void Rays/Phoenix, along with a mix of ground units; if you have to, use Warp Pylons to carry the ground forces along to a staging area just outside the opponent's base; offload the ground forces just outside, and come in low and slow with the whole massive force) I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. Yes, arbiter + carrier is a pretty potent combination lateltaelatelate game. But I can't recall that many pro-games where I ever saw that in action. Maybe... one. Arbiters were mainly used for Protoss ground forces as I detailed above. As for using the mothership with carriers/void rays/pheonix, that's just a horrible idea. On the one hand, Zerg has an easy counter to mothership: neural parasite. So why bother making the mothership when it will never be yours anyways. Terran has an easy counter to all protoss air: Vikings. Terran is already going to be getting vikings to counter your mothership, the last thing you need to be doing is encouraging him to build even more so that your mothership and half of your army all go down like paperweights. Going all ground just seems to me to be a better option, since they buffer vs your opponent's ground, are not countered by the vikings shooting down your mothership, and make more storms available in case your opponent runs into a vortex. This was sort of the situation in thelittleone vs white-ra, thelittleone had mainly marine/medivac and white-ra had a ground force with storm. However, when white-ra lost all his templar at the end of the game his vortex did nothing for him and thelittleone won. The way you describe things seems to me to indicate that while you've had success with your strategy, it's mostly because your opponents never see motherships and so have no idea what the crap they should do. I just don't think motherships in their current state will ever be able to hold up to scrutiny. And just how did the Arbiter manage that task you so correctly gave it? It cloaked anything (in fact, everything) else within range; unless you had a cloak detector, the Arbiter is all you'd see. (That was why Missile Turrets made for a great anti-Arbie defense.). Also, the Medivac is a glorified shuttlecraft that functions as a mobile sickbay; you need other air units in addition to the ground units. (In fact, Battlecruisers or even Hellions would have made a great balancing addition.) Go back and look at the replay I posted (of mine) at Desert Oasis; my mistake with Mothership deployment wasn't that I didn't give it enough air cover; I lost the Mothership to ground-based defenses (specifically, to Archons) because I employed no ground troops. Had I followed my own later post and added a proper ground assault-force mix (Stalkers/Immortals/Colossi/Dark Templar, with possibly some Zealots and Archons thrown in), I could have ended things much sooner. (In short, a multi-faceted defense will squish a one-dimensional attack or push, as thelittleone proved against white-ra, who had no air cover.) As you yourself pointed out, Arbiters in BW were primarily used with *ground* forces, as opposed to Carriers (though they are indeed useful as part of a Carrier/Shuttle-based assault force in BW or even original SC). With both Terrans and Zerg, though, we're seeing things devolve into cheese/harass/spam (especially in the early game); the Protoss, however, can only counter that to an extent with ground forces (Stalkers primarily), as their air units are mostly either too expensive, too specialized, or both. (While you can spam Zealots, it makes a lot more sense to spam Stalkers, as they have better shields and more firepower than Zealots.) Terrans can build air units quicker than Protoss, and the Zerg are faster still (in fact, they typically start with an Overlord), which is why Medivac/Marine rushing can work early against the Protoss (especially if the P player concentrated on Photon Cannon *or* Stalkers, as opposed to a mix of both for defense). In fact, you just pointed out why I prefer a mixed assault (air and ground units) and mixed defenses; however, success using spam/cheese as opposed to a *proper* defense or even attack leads to mass-of-unit devolution, and I'd really rather NOT see SC2 head that way.
Lol at your attempt to use words such as "deployment" to try and represent your idiotic view as inelligent. Seriously, "multi-faceted defense," that's so childish its not military language if that is what your thinking, It is just nonsense.
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On May 22 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
Does anyone else think it's a problem with fleet beacon and not a problem quite so much with the mothership?
400/400/8 really isn't that bad for what the mothership offers, maybe the supply and cost could be better (400/300/6?), but it's not that bad. The problem is that's NOT what you are paying. Most Protoss never need a fleet beacon, you only need one for void ray upgrade if I'm not mistaken (or lol carriers). So you effectively have to pay 700/600 for a mothership. If people could just pop out a Mothership for 400/400/8 we might see that happen even with the current mothership balance.
This is something that should be solved in steps. Step 1 is making fleet beacons viable. Once people are making fleet beacons anyways we then can get a better judgement on what Motherships are like.
If the Mothership does have to be changed, I'd rather see it be cheaper or more durable rather than more powerful. Super uber units aren't fun for anyone except noobs.
This is certainly part of the problem, but I don't think anyone would mind going for Carrier/Mothership tech if the Mothership was actually useful. Carriers have their moments but are definitely not BW Carriers and serve more as a late-game addition to make your army more powerful more so than a choice as a single-unit army, so getting a Fleet Beacon as is isn't entirely a bad decision. The problem comes in when if you are trying to add simply a Mothership and do not want (or need Carriers) that it becomes costly. Of course being able to pump out even a current-balanced Mothership as soon as you get a S-gate up wouldn't work either as the Mothership would come to early to be countered at all. Right now it comes out too late to do anything at all, so perhaps a balance between those two extremes is what would be best.
This might be a little unorthodox but perhaps a small upgrade 150/150 at the Nexus that can be started once you have a Cyber Core called something like " 'Khydran Drive' - Develops the Khydran Drive technology which is needed to power Motherships. Motherships require a Stargate in order to be built at a Nexus. This upgrade can not be powered by Chrono Boost. 70 seconds" This would make the Mothership come out considerably earlier than with the current implementation but not so early as to make it possible to rush 1 VR and 1 Mothership.
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On May 22 2010 04:15 SichuanPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
Does anyone else think it's a problem with fleet beacon and not a problem quite so much with the mothership?
400/400/8 really isn't that bad for what the mothership offers, maybe the supply and cost could be better (400/300/6?), but it's not that bad. The problem is that's NOT what you are paying. Most Protoss never need a fleet beacon, you only need one for void ray upgrade if I'm not mistaken (or lol carriers). So you effectively have to pay 700/600 for a mothership. If people could just pop out a Mothership for 400/400/8 we might see that happen even with the current mothership balance.
This is something that should be solved in steps. Step 1 is making fleet beacons viable. Once people are making fleet beacons anyways we then can get a better judgement on what Motherships are like.
If the Mothership does have to be changed, I'd rather see it be cheaper or more durable rather than more powerful. Super uber units aren't fun for anyone except noobs. This is certainly part of the problem, but I don't think anyone would mind going for Carrier/Mothership tech if the Mothership was actually useful. Carriers have their moments but are definitely not BW Carriers and serve more as a late-game addition to make your army more powerful more so than a choice as a single-unit army, so getting a Fleet Beacon as is isn't entirely a bad decision. The problem comes in when if you are trying to add simply a Mothership and do not want (or need Carriers) that it becomes costly. Of course being able to pump out even a current-balanced Mothership as soon as you get a S-gate up wouldn't work either as the Mothership would come to early to be countered at all. Right now it comes out too late to do anything at all, so perhaps a balance between those two extremes is what would be best. This might be a little unorthodox but perhaps a small upgrade 150/150 at the Nexus that can be started once you have a Cyber Core called something like " 'Khydran Drive' - Develops the Khydran Drive technology which is needed to power Motherships. Motherships require a Stargate in order to be built at a Nexus. This upgrade can not be powered by Chrono Boost. 70 seconds" This would make the Mothership come out considerably earlier than with the current implementation but not so early as to make it possible to rush 1 VR and 1 Mothership.
It would be wierd if that one upgrade can't be chrono boosted. It would be to awkward to be a actual solution.
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I propose that the Mothership itself should be permanently cloaked, like DT's are. That single improvement could go a long way of making it more viable. Others buffs and nerfs to spells could be still necessary, as a further means.
- You can hide a base in its entirety with the only hint being the disappearance of minerals and gas into thin air.
- Your mothership won't be a bullet magnet anymore, even if the enemy gets detection. The other units and buildings being cloaked will draw fire.
- You can sneak your force around the map while hoping that the enemy doesn't detect anything.
- You can pull of a surprise recall, at the risk of getting your mothership detected and losing it to a quickly defending enemy.
Is this overpowered? The mothership is late in the tech tree, and the investment into one leaves for an obvious timing gap for a timing attack by the opponent, unless the protoss player is already ahead. As a possible nerf, the construction of a mothership could be announced, like nukes are, just to give the opponent a bit of awareness of something that important that otherwise cannot be seen easy enough. A different possible nerf is to have the cloaking ability cost mana.
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i LOLOLOLOLOL on the floor when a toss gets these on me. Neural Parasite + Vortex his army (focusing on stalkers cause of dark blink) FTW!!
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Mothership should have Planet Cracker that destroys every unit in play, including workers, and brings all buildings down to 50% health.
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On May 22 2010 02:51 Ayestes wrote:
Allow one Mothership per Nexus and make it so Vortex only instantly captures the units and doesn't continually do it over the duration. Then tweak it's damage giving it independent Air to Ground and Air to Air attacks. Then match the DPS/Cost efficiency with a Battlecruiser in terms of boosting the damage. I honestly think that's all it needs.
Yes, lets also give it the power of simultaneously firing 20 marauder rockets, and 20 viking rockets.
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EPT
