[D] And Then There's the Mothership...

On May 21 2010 15:19 Hyperion2010 wrote:
I wish they would just give the arbiters a shot for 1 or 2 patches and see what happened ;_; isnt that the point of beta? Arbiters were 1000x cooler than ANY current protoss air unit (scratch that, any air unit in the game).

On May 21 2010 15:27 Failsafe wrote:It's hard to argue that there's a better use of 400/400/8 in the game, I think

On May 21 2010 15:27 Failsafe wrote:
We really don't know anything about the Mothership at the moment because the game hasn't progressed that far. Although I think you've done a good job making this thread coherent, I'm afraid that you're addressing a problem that we don't know is actually a problem. We don't have any real understanding of SC2 late game. I do disagree with you as to the power of the Mothership's abilities, especially given what we're seeing about patch 13. We know that Massive units will be able to dispel Force Fields by simply walking over them, so the Vortex will certainly be superior in that regard. Moreover, Vortex is cast by a single unit and has a huge area of effect, so it's also superior for that. It's hard to argue that there's a better use of 400/400/8 in the game, I think

On May 21 2010 15:27 Failsafe wrote:
We really don't know anything about the Mothership at the moment because the game hasn't progressed that far. Although I think you've done a good job making this thread coherent, I'm afraid that you're addressing a problem that we don't know is actually a problem. We don't have any real understanding of SC2 late game. I do disagree with you as to the power of the Mothership's abilities, especially given what we're seeing about patch 13. We know that Massive units will be able to dispel Force Fields by simply walking over them, so the Vortex will certainly be superior in that regard. Moreover, Vortex is cast by a single unit and has a huge area of effect, so it's also superior for that. It's hard to argue that there's a better use of 400/400/8 in the game, I think

On May 21 2010 16:13 Blekk101 wrote:
i thought of some ideas for it a little while back, so i think i'll list them for fun .

1) remove the AoE cloak ability and replace it with an AoE shield regen - adding say 3 shield every tick for every unit in the same radius.

2) remove mass recall and the AoE cloak and give the mothership basically a pylon warp in radius (maybe larger) so you can constantly warp in units. adding to this you would most likely want to get boost it's movement speed a little and get rid of the warp prism.. warp mode and keep it as a drop ship.

3) bring back the planet cracker

those are just some random ideas i had for it to make it more fun and maybe more useful for you toss players.

On May 21 2010 15:19 Jadix wrote:
As a zerg i just see them as HUGE infestor targets

On May 21 2010 16:29 Jimmy Raynor wrote:
I have played probably more than 400 games in beta and used mother ship only once if I recall correctly, and I was already losing the game so I made it for fun

On May 21 2010 15:39 USn wrote:


It's effectively 700/500/8 since you need a fleet beacon, which also adds an extra 60 production time... in it's current state I can think of a lottttttttt of things better than that.

On May 21 2010 15:19 Hyperion2010 wrote:
I wish they would just give the arbiters a shot for 1 or 2 patches and see what happened ;_; isnt that the point of beta? Arbiters were 1000x cooler than ANY current protoss air unit (scratch that, any air unit in the game).

On May 21 2010 21:40 rK wrote:
Cloaked Banelings in 2v2 can be pretty sweet/hilarious, suppose Ultras would be now too. Seems just like a "fun" unit though, yeah.

On May 21 2010 23:06 Sueco wrote:

There is also a hilarious design fail with the mothership.

It's at unique support vessel, but it cloaks anything near it so it gets inmediatly focused. I can understand running that risk with arbiters, you could make several, but when its a large, expensive, slow unit with long build time, mass cloak is even helping it fail.

Solution: First, give it back its old attack. The blue missiles are FAR cooler than blue beams. Second, fire the fool who made that change. Now give it a longer attack range so it can work like a pseudo-broodlord and do its supporting job without getting focused. Remove cloak. Keep its spells but reduce their cost/power. Make it a bit cheaper/faster to get. Make it move a bit faster

The idea is to make it a viable support unit for a warpgate army, like the arbiter once was. For that it needs to come a bit earlier and have bit a longer range, and be able to use its abilities more often since you can't spam motherships.

On May 22 2010 00:15 PGHammer wrote:


The Mothership *is* a viable support unit for a WarpGate army (or ground forces shuttled/blinked in); however, how many players use it that way (or, more telling, get to use it that way)? Also, that is the Mothership's *job* (to collect all the attention); this was the same job the Arbiter had. The Arbiter wasn't very fast, either; it was slower than other air units (especially the Carrier and Shuttle). The Mothership has heavier shielding than the Arbiter because it will get a LOT of attention due to its sheer size; however, that same size means it has the same amount of cloaking area as four Arbiters. The issue is that it takes a boatload of resources (both minerals and gas) to build Mom; it also takes a ton of time. And, if you are playing against a Protoss player, and you aren't rushed early, you very well figure that he may be building up forces for a combined assault, with Mom invited along to help protect the "kids" (other air and ground forces). Because of that early video showing what the Mothership is capable of (most of those capabilities are still there, even with all the nerfing), even without the wormhole nexus, a Mothership as part of a push can still create a ton of havoc. And no player wants to be on the wrong end of that havoc.

( I play Protoss exclusively, and I've noticed that I'm getting rushed just about *constantly*; in my qualifying matches, my only win was when I wasn't rushed.)

I think that rushes v. Protoss are (at least in SC2) more a case of "fear of Mom"...and having had a chance to use the Mothership as intended (as a super-sized Arbiter), I can see why.

On May 22 2010 00:15 PGHammer wrote:
( I play Protoss exclusively, and I've noticed that I'm getting rushed just about *constantly*; in my qualifying matches, my only win was when I wasn't rushed.)

I think that rushes v. Protoss are (at least in SC2) more a case of "fear of Mom"...and having had a chance to use the Mothership as intended (as a super-sized Arbiter), I can see why.

On May 22 2010 00:15 PGHammer wrote:


The Mothership *is* a viable support unit for a WarpGate army (or ground forces shuttled/blinked in); however, how many players use it that way (or, more telling, get to use it that way)? Also, that is the Mothership's *job* (to collect all the attention); this was the same job the Arbiter had. The Arbiter wasn't very fast, either; it was slower than other air units (especially the Carrier and Shuttle). The Mothership has heavier shielding than the Arbiter because it will get a LOT of attention due to its sheer size; however, that same size means it has the same amount of cloaking area as four Arbiters. The issue is that it takes a boatload of resources (both minerals and gas) to build Mom; it also takes a ton of time. And, if you are playing against a Protoss player, and you aren't rushed early, you very well figure that he may be building up forces for a combined assault, with Mom invited along to help protect the "kids" (other air and ground forces). Because of that early video showing what the Mothership is capable of (most of those capabilities are still there, even with all the nerfing), even without the wormhole nexus, a Mothership as part of a push can still create a ton of havoc. And no player wants to be on the wrong end of that havoc.

( I play Protoss exclusively, and I've noticed that I'm getting rushed just about *constantly*; in my qualifying matches, my only win was when I wasn't rushed.)

I think that rushes v. Protoss are (at least in SC2) more a case of "fear of Mom"...and having had a chance to use the Mothership as intended (as a super-sized Arbiter), I can see why.

On May 22 2010 00:15 PGHammer wrote:


The Mothership *is* a viable support unit for a WarpGate army (or ground forces shuttled/blinked in); however, how many players use it that way (or, more telling, get to use it that way)? Also, that is the Mothership's *job* (to collect all the attention); this was the same job the Arbiter had. The Arbiter wasn't very fast, either; it was slower than other air units (especially the Carrier and Shuttle). The Mothership has heavier shielding than the Arbiter because it will get a LOT of attention due to its sheer size; however, that same size means it has the same amount of cloaking area as four Arbiters. The issue is that it takes a boatload of resources (both minerals and gas) to build Mom; it also takes a ton of time. And, if you are playing against a Protoss player, and you aren't rushed early, you very well figure that he may be building up forces for a combined assault, with Mom invited along to help protect the "kids" (other air and ground forces). Because of that early video showing what the Mothership is capable of (most of those capabilities are still there, even with all the nerfing), even without the wormhole nexus, a Mothership as part of a push can still create a ton of havoc. And no player wants to be on the wrong end of that havoc.

( I play Protoss exclusively, and I've noticed that I'm getting rushed just about *constantly*; in my qualifying matches, my only win was when I wasn't rushed.)

I think that rushes v. Protoss are (at least in SC2) more a case of "fear of Mom"...and having had a chance to use the Mothership as intended (as a super-sized Arbiter), I can see why.

(ideally, you should use a Mothership like you would an Arbiter, with Carriers/Void Rays/Phoenix, along with a mix of ground units; if you have to, use Warp Pylons to carry the ground forces along to a staging area just outside the opponent's base; offload the ground forces just outside, and come in low and slow with the whole massive force)

On May 21 2010 15:28 Failsafe wrote:


Yeah, it's weird to speculate why a super intelligent race would get rid of their best unit. What kind of Lore explains that? :o

On May 21 2010 16:07 OperationMeatshield wrote:
One thing I want on the mothership is for it to constantly produce a powerfield beneath it. This would be awesome as its mere presence would allow you to reinforce your force in a late game battle. Also there would be fun strats of building the mothership than using it to setup a forward control point with cannons and a constant stream of reinforcements.

I think adding a powerfield would also make it seem more high tech, more advanced, like all protoss units are supposed to be.

On May 22 2010 01:55 QuothTheRaven wrote:
I don't see what's wrong with having a single unit in the Protoss arsenal that's a specialty unit and rarely sees gameplay use. The rarity of it only makes it that much more exciting and memorable when we do see it.

On May 21 2010 16:07 OperationMeatshield wrote:
One thing I want on the mothership is for it to constantly produce a powerfield beneath it. This would be awesome as its mere presence would allow you to reinforce your force in a late game battle. Also there would be fun strats of building the mothership than using it to setup a forward control point with cannons and a constant stream of reinforcements.

I think adding a powerfield would also make it seem more high tech, more advanced, like all protoss units are supposed to be.

On May 21 2010 16:07 OperationMeatshield wrote:
One thing I want on the mothership is for it to constantly produce a powerfield beneath it. This would be awesome as its mere presence would allow you to reinforce your force in a late game battle. Also there would be fun strats of building the mothership than using it to setup a forward control point with cannons and a constant stream of reinforcements.

I think adding a powerfield would also make it seem more high tech, more advanced, like all protoss units are supposed to be.

On May 22 2010 02:28 shalafiend wrote:


wtf...has this guy been reading the thread at all..
how is a Huge SLOW ASS moving unit going to make gameplay any more exciting. yes..vortex, mass recal, and cloak...- spells that will come into effect as your mothership slowly inches its way across the map...and ONLY then..

right, i see you moving out underneath your giant bulls eye of a saucer: i can..focus fire it and own it in 1 second flat. you manage to use your spells (i will run into the vortex, or i will run away from you)
i can assume you're stupid, and just attack at another position forcing you to either pull back your whole army, and leaving your slow saucer desperately flying back to catch up..where i will snipe it.

the mothership is rare -cause it is a overnerfed, slow, useless unit that you don't get unless you're already winning and want to Bm.

On May 22 2010 01:11 phyvo wrote:


The arbiter's job wasn't to "collect the attention". In SC1 the arbiter's job was to allow protoss units to close the distance to the entrenched siege tanks by effectively decreasing their range. Terrans would have to use positioning, scans, turrets, and later sci vessels to regain their siege tanks' range advantage, as well as goliaths to keep arbiter count low. Arbiters also played a key role in separating the Terran army with good stasis usage, which had to be countered with EMP.

Now compare this to the mothership:
Vortex can't effectively split the army unless there's high templar support for AoE, because vs a MMMG ball they'll all just run into the vortex. The best you can get out of that is a surround with zealots before the battle ensues
Unless Terran is going tanks, cloak doesn't serve the same function. It's more like using DTs because vs a MMMG ball a few ravens or a scan will give enough sight for the infantry to fire using most of their range.

You also, in an earlier post, suggested


I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. Yes, arbiter + carrier is a pretty potent combination lateltaelatelate game. But I can't recall that many pro-games where I ever saw that in action. Maybe... one. Arbiters were mainly used for Protoss ground forces as I detailed above.

As for using the mothership with carriers/void rays/pheonix, that's just a horrible idea. On the one hand, Zerg has an easy counter to mothership: neural parasite. So why bother making the mothership when it will never be yours anyways. Terran has an easy counter to all protoss air: Vikings. Terran is already going to be getting vikings to counter your mothership, the last thing you need to be doing is encouraging him to build even more so that your mothership and half of your army all go down like paperweights.

Going all ground just seems to me to be a better option, since they buffer vs your opponent's ground, are not countered by the vikings shooting down your mothership, and make more storms available in case your opponent runs into a vortex. This was sort of the situation in thelittleone vs white-ra, thelittleone had mainly marine/medivac and white-ra had a ground force with storm. However, when white-ra lost all his templar at the end of the game his vortex did nothing for him and thelittleone won.

The way you describe things seems to me to indicate that while you've had success with your strategy, it's mostly because your opponents never see motherships and so have no idea what the crap they should do. I just don't think motherships in their current state will ever be able to hold up to scrutiny.

On May 22 2010 02:43 QuothTheRaven wrote:

I think you misinterpret me. I know that it's extremely rare, and not used very often at the high levels. But that makes it more exciting when we see it: I still remember WhiteRa's usage of it vs. TLO in the TLI 1 finals, because it was such an extraordinary thing for him to build a mothership and use it; likewise I remember KHB's game vs. Artosis where he went 1-base mothership rush (before the nerfs), because again it was a really wacky and unorthodox strategy. Everyone loves the Valkyrie and the Queen (SCBW version) or medics blinding shuttles/observers (Sea.Really) because they're so rare that when you see them it's really something special (ok, the Valk has become a lot more standard in TvZ mech these days, but when T's first started using it with mech playstyles it was a really big deal).

Moreover I'd say that Protoss armies are exciting enough with a good amount of diversity that they don't desperately need to have 1 more "standard, viable" unit in their composition, which allows for the mothership to remain as a niche specialty unit without severely damaging how interesting it is to play as or against Protoss.

Also I think we just haven't had enough time to see if it has solid uses in certain playstyles / build orders. You for example mention that the mothership is not particularly effective at pushing and attacking due to its extremely slow speed--but maybe it has interesting uses that aren't offensive. NonY for example has spoken a few times about using the mothership as an extremely effective expansion defender, and putting the unit to really good use in that way--but we haven't seen it much yet because no one has had the time or experience to play around with it enough and get a feel for whether or not it's viable.

On May 22 2010 02:51 Ryuu314 wrote:
It's fine as it is. As a Protoss player both in SC2 and in BW, I must say I have been missing the great utility of the scout as a humiliation unit. The mothership serves that role perfectly...no, it does it even better. Instead of paying 275/125 for a worthless unit, I can pay 400/400 for an even more worthless unit! The possibilities for humiliation are endless!

But then again...after all the recent patches I probably won't be winning many games as Protoss so...maybe my point is moot :[

On May 22 2010 03:36 EmeraldSparks wrote:
Mothership should get a siege mode and become faster. Protoss is mobile enough as is. The Mothership can signify a transition into a positional mass combat playstyle. Basically, a problem with the mothership that a fast mothership (say, fast enough to harass and easily run away) would be absurdly obnoxious, but a super slow mothership is super useless. Having a deployed mode would solve both of these problems in an elegant fashion. In particular, having a deployed mode with some battlefield presence would retain the Mothership's usefulness after having dropped the first (unreliable) vortex, or we could throw that ability out entirely. Finally, it should stop being killed in three seconds by a bunch of hydralisks because that's really lame.

Sample implementation:
+ Show Spoiler +

On May 22 2010 02:46 PGHammer wrote:



And just how did the Arbiter manage that task you so correctly gave it? It cloaked anything (in fact, everything) else within range; unless you had a cloak detector, the Arbiter is all you'd see. (That was why Missile Turrets made for a great anti-Arbie defense.). Also, the Medivac is a glorified shuttlecraft that functions as a mobile sickbay; you need other air units in addition to the ground units. (In fact, Battlecruisers or even Hellions would have made a great balancing addition.) Go back and look at the replay I posted (of mine) at Desert Oasis; my mistake with Mothership deployment wasn't that I didn't give it enough air cover; I lost the Mothership to ground-based defenses (specifically, to Archons) because I employed no ground troops. Had I followed my own later post and added a proper ground assault-force mix (Stalkers/Immortals/Colossi/Dark Templar, with possibly some Zealots and Archons thrown in), I could have ended things much sooner. (In short, a multi-faceted defense will squish a one-dimensional attack or push, as thelittleone proved against white-ra, who had no air cover.)

As you yourself pointed out, Arbiters in BW were primarily used with *ground* forces, as opposed to Carriers (though they are indeed useful as part of a Carrier/Shuttle-based assault force in BW or even original SC). With both Terrans and Zerg, though, we're seeing things devolve into cheese/harass/spam (especially in the early game); the Protoss, however, can only counter that to an extent with ground forces (Stalkers primarily), as their air units are mostly either too expensive, too specialized, or both. (While you can spam Zealots, it makes a lot more sense to spam Stalkers, as they have better shields and more firepower than Zealots.) Terrans can build air units quicker than Protoss, and the Zerg are faster still (in fact, they typically start with an Overlord), which is why Medivac/Marine rushing can work early against the Protoss (especially if the P player concentrated on Photon Cannon *or* Stalkers, as opposed to a mix of both for defense). In fact, you just pointed out why I prefer a mixed assault (air and ground units) and mixed defenses; however, success using spam/cheese as opposed to a *proper* defense or even attack leads to mass-of-unit devolution, and I'd really rather NOT see SC2 head that way.

On May 22 2010 03:57 Logo wrote:
Does anyone else think it's a problem with fleet beacon and not a problem quite so much with the mothership?

400/400/8 really isn't that bad for what the mothership offers, maybe the supply and cost could be better (400/300/6?), but it's not that bad. The problem is that's NOT what you are paying. Most Protoss never need a fleet beacon, you only need one for void ray upgrade if I'm not mistaken (or lol carriers). So you effectively have to pay 700/600 for a mothership. If people could just pop out a Mothership for 400/400/8 we might see that happen even with the current mothership balance.

This is something that should be solved in steps. Step 1 is making fleet beacons viable. Once people are making fleet beacons anyways we then can get a better judgement on what Motherships are like.

If the Mothership does have to be changed, I'd rather see it be cheaper or more durable rather than more powerful. Super uber units aren't fun for anyone except noobs.

On May 22 2010 04:15 SichuanPanda wrote:


This is certainly part of the problem, but I don't think anyone would mind going for Carrier/Mothership tech if the Mothership was actually useful. Carriers have their moments but are definitely not BW Carriers and serve more as a late-game addition to make your army more powerful more so than a choice as a single-unit army, so getting a Fleet Beacon as is isn't entirely a bad decision. The problem comes in when if you are trying to add simply a Mothership and do not want (or need Carriers) that it becomes costly. Of course being able to pump out even a current-balanced Mothership as soon as you get a S-gate up wouldn't work either as the Mothership would come to early to be countered at all. Right now it comes out too late to do anything at all, so perhaps a balance between those two extremes is what would be best.

This might be a little unorthodox but perhaps a small upgrade 150/150 at the Nexus that can be started once you have a Cyber Core called something like " 'Khydran Drive' - Develops the Khydran Drive technology which is needed to power Motherships. Motherships require a Stargate in order to be built at a Nexus. This upgrade can not be powered by Chrono Boost. 70 seconds" This would make the Mothership come out considerably earlier than with the current implementation but not so early as to make it possible to rush 1 VR and 1 Mothership.

On May 22 2010 02:51 Ayestes wrote:
Allow one Mothership per Nexus and make it so Vortex only instantly captures the units and doesn't continually do it over the duration. Then tweak it's damage giving it independent Air to Ground and Air to Air attacks. Then match the DPS/Cost efficiency with a Battlecruiser in terms of boosting the damage. I honestly think that's all it needs.

If your in the beta and play Protoss your fairly familiar with the fact that mothership is getting little love from the Protoss community. For the most part on the rare occation that the mothership is used in combination with an attacking; it gets taken down fairly quickly.

Even in pro league when one is brought it last a short amount of time. For example when HD Starcraft commentated the Gerper v Isskincom game, the mothership lasted about + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/user/hdstarcraft?blend=2&ob=4#p/u/5/N6ewuQsPzlw

I happen to think the current edition of the mothership is not conducive to offensive play. It really feels more like a defensive ship, a base support tool. The cost of the mothership makes it hard to justify summoning just for defensive use. In fact I was hoping to pull a video for you all but cant find one.

So let’s back up on where it came from and its use. In SC lore it was a unit to support colonist to the edge of the galaxy and back. And some were turned into command ships which would lead armadas.

So to keep in the spirit of it being a far reaching ship means, it must be there to support Protoss expansions. But, in its current state, it is far to high up the tech tree, and far too expensive to support them. (a player is expanding because they are in need of resources).

Well then, it must be a command ship to lead my armada. However at the moment, the general consensus is that its abilities are easily counterable.
-Cloaking : Good players already have detectors when the mothership comes out
-Vortex : their army can hide in the hole with more backup to on the way only for you to get pwned when they come out of the hole.
-Mass recall : The motherships speed makes it too slow to stage a assault with warping in an armada before it will get caught.

I think it IS useful at the moment(minus price and teching cost) for supporting your expansion. Which gets us back to the problem of cost while trying to save up for an expansion.

My solution!
Make Mothership available after stargate is built. Now it makes more sense for expansions. Bring worm hole back and restrict it worming between nexus buildings only. If there is a fear of balance, make the mothership even slower to emphasize its need to be near Nexus for base support so its needs to use Nexus wormhole.

Now lets do the following, add an upgrade in the Fleet Beacon and call it “Command Ship”(or something). The Command Ship button turns your Mothership into an armada support tool. Once upgraded it looses all or part of the following:
-Cloak
-"Nexus wormhole"
-Recall
-Vortex

And it gains all or part of these(from the old beta):
-Recharge Energy
-Planet Cracker
-Faster Speed (match carriers)
-Temporal Rift

We are now matching game lore, while meeting the needs of the Protoss players. Now the mothership is a great Outpost support unit and can be converted (making it balanced through tuning the expense of time, and resources) as needed.

As a Protoss player, I would have a lot of fun with this while it still maintains balance. I think that adjusting cost, time, and energy use; can balance it.

My thoughts for the Mothership and getting it actually used. Constructive thoughts on A) If you like it, B) How do you seeing balancing any kind of implementation of the above, would be appreciated.

On May 21 2010 16:13 Blekk101 wrote:
i thought of some ideas for it a little while back, so i think i'll list them for fun .

1) remove the AoE cloak ability and replace it with an AoE shield regen - adding say 3 shield every tick for every unit in the same radius.

2) remove mass recall and the AoE cloak and give the mothership basically a pylon warp in radius (maybe larger) so you can constantly warp in units. adding to this you would most likely want to get boost it's movement speed a little and get rid of the warp prism.. warp mode and keep it as a drop ship.

3) bring back the planet cracker

those are just some random ideas i had for it to make it more fun and maybe more useful for you toss players.

On May 22 2010 03:36 EmeraldSparks wrote:
Mothership should get a siege mode and become faster. Protoss is mobile enough as is. The Mothership can signify a transition into a positional mass combat playstyle. Basically, a problem with the mothership that a fast mothership (say, fast enough to harass and easily run away) would be absurdly obnoxious, but a super slow mothership is super useless. Having a deployed mode would solve both of these problems in an elegant fashion. In particular, having a deployed mode with some battlefield presence would retain the Mothership's usefulness after having dropped the first (unreliable) vortex, or we could throw that ability out entirely. Finally, it should stop being killed in three seconds by a bunch of hydralisks because that's really lame.

Sample implementation:
+ Show Spoiler +

Basically, let it have the ability to land!! When landing, it becomes able to act as a nexus in that probes can return resources to it. It would still have all of its abilities active though, cloaking the probeline, attacking any enemy units that gets nearby, although now being able to be attacked by ground attacks of course. This would in no way be overpowered or underpowered, since the mothership is more expensive than a nexus, and have less hitpoints, also lacking the chrono boost ability. It would just be a cool little ability that would put back the MOTHER in MOTHERSHIP! If attacked by ground units it could of course liftoff again while decimating them from the skies, then land again.

On May 22 2010 02:46 PGHammer wrote:



And just how did the Arbiter manage that task you so correctly gave it? It cloaked anything (in fact, everything) else within range; unless you had a cloak detector, the Arbiter is all you'd see. (That was why Missile Turrets made for a great anti-Arbie defense.).

Also, the Medivac is a glorified shuttlecraft that functions as a mobile sickbay; you need other air units in addition to the ground units. (In fact, Battlecruisers or even Hellions would have made a great balancing addition.) Go back and look at the replay I posted (of mine) at Desert Oasis; my mistake with Mothership deployment wasn't that I didn't give it enough air cover; I lost the Mothership to ground-based defenses (specifically, to Archons) because I employed no ground troops. Had I followed my own later post and added a proper ground assault-force mix (Stalkers/Immortals/Colossi/Dark Templar, with possibly some Zealots and Archons thrown in), I could have ended things much sooner. (In short, a multi-faceted defense will squish a one-dimensional attack or push, as thelittleone proved against white-ra, who had no air cover.)
As you yourself pointed out, Arbiters in BW were primarily used with *ground* forces, as opposed to Carriers (though they are indeed useful as part of a Carrier/Shuttle-based assault force in BW or even original SC). With both Terrans and Zerg, though, we're seeing things devolve into cheese/harass/spam (especially in the early game); the Protoss, however, can only counter that to an extent with ground forces (Stalkers primarily), as their air units are mostly either too expensive, too specialized, or both. (While you can spam Zealots, it makes a lot more sense to spam Stalkers, as they have better shields and more firepower than Zealots.) Terrans can build air units quicker than Protoss, and the Zerg are faster still (in fact, they typically start with an Overlord), which is why Medivac/Marine rushing can work early against the Protoss (especially if the P player concentrated on Photon Cannon *or* Stalkers, as opposed to a mix of both for defense). In fact, you just pointed out why I prefer a mixed assault (air and ground units) and mixed defenses; however, success using spam/cheese as opposed to a *proper* defense or even attack leads to mass-of-unit devolution, and I'd really rather NOT see SC2 head that way.

On May 21 2010 17:39 Legendary- wrote:
I've still definitely made more motherships than I have carriers. I rather them fix carriers than motherships at the moment because VR are definitely overlapping with what carriers are supposed to be. Two units that are air/ground support and VR is just better in every way (especially once upgraded).

As far as mothership is truly concerned, keep it the way it is, maybe make it a little faster, but reduce the build time as well. For a unit that we can only have one of it takes a lot of chrono boosts to really get it out

On May 21 2010 15:28 Failsafe wrote:


Yeah, it's weird to speculate why a super intelligent race would get rid of their best unit. What kind of Lore explains that? :o

On May 22 2010 04:40 BigDates wrote:



Yes, lets also give it the power of simultaneously firing 20 marauder rockets, and 20 viking rockets.

On May 23 2010 00:18 Ayestes wrote:


Except that's not what I said at all, and I'm unsure if you are being sarcastic or what you mean by it if you are.

After consideration, I don't think we should get more then one Mothership anymore due to Blizzard wanting that as its' role. However, I still think Vortex needs a change and the Mothership certainly needs a damage boost. While it certainly doesn't need 20 Marauder Anti-Armor Rockets underneath it and 20 Viking Rockets, a tweak to the Attack Cooldown of it's attacks and adding an additional attack that can target ground wouldn't be a bad idea - for it's price it has an extraordinary low effect on Damage Output. With that much investment, it should at least make up for a lot of that differential of spending those gas and minerals on other more traditionally used units.

Right now it has very little combat presence on the field. Sure it could teleport and army to it, but with it's speed it's usually only defensive which while effective doesn't quite seem like that was it's only intention. Vortex is useless as the army can simply jump into it and wait it out - it doesn't split forces like Stasis Field. It would only win battles that you would have already won by a large margin. It's cloak can win battles, but if by the time you have the Mothership - if they don't have cloak detection it's likely again, you have already won. It's combat effeciency in terms of damage output actually hinders you in terms of cost. It's better to mix in gateway/robo/stargate units in if you want to fight.

The Mothership doesn't turn fights in your favor. It's either a defensive or a humiliation unit. If that is the intention, then so be it. Otherwise, I do think it needs a Damage Efficiency boost.

On May 21 2010 15:19 Hyperion2010 wrote:
I wish they would just give the arbiters a shot for 1 or 2 patches and see what happened ;_; isnt that the point of beta? Arbiters were 1000x cooler than ANY current protoss air unit (scratch that, any air unit in the game).

On May 22 2010 13:03 morpheus2480 wrote:
I have an idea for a Mothership spell...

Why don't they make it so that a Mothership can restore energy? Similar to how a Medivac heals terran units? That would make late game play more interesting , IMHO.

On May 23 2010 16:57 Sevenofnines wrote:
Let the Mothership toggle between different "field" effects:
Cloaking Field: As it is now.
Psi-field: Warp Prism effect allowing reinforcements from Warpgates.
Restoration Field: Regens shields, energy, AND health at an accelerated rate.

Make it immune to Neural Parasite and increase speed a little bit.
Change Mass Recall into Mini-recall that works only on 1 unit and costs like 25 energy.

This basically turns the Mothership into a support powerhouse that would justify its investment.The psi-field effect lets you reinforce from your Warpgates and combined with the mini-recall means that you can instantly warp over Robotics/Stargate units from your base as well. Restoration field gives you a useful support effect in battle or lets you keep your army in tip-top shape. It really sucks seeing units with like full shields and like 10/HP and this lets you fix that if you are willing to get a Mothership.

On May 23 2010 18:19 kidcrash wrote:


I really like these ideas, turns the mothership into the swiss army knife of the protoss army. Only thing thats a little overpowered is restoring health, energy and shields. That would be ridiculously OP, I think just recharging shields would be good enough. The only "mode" which allows the mothership to move should be the cloaking field IMO, psi-field and restoration field should definitely lock the mothership in place. Single unit recall would be fine but I think 10 energy per unit would be a little more reasonable. Also the shield regeneration mode should cost 2-3 energy per second just because it's definitely the most powerful choice of the 3 modes.

On May 27 2010 01:24 KiWiKaKi wrote:
wormhole transit was a cool idea , allowing to defend expos with the cloak field but i guess it was too cool for blizzard

On May 27 2010 01:49 DMon wrote:
Actually I have used motherships in combat and with great effect. IT's army stealth ability is a for multiplier as if you have your unit composition correct you have Anti-Air units taking out any zerg Overlords, ground unit's can slaughter anything on the ground, and pack in Colossi with range you have an invisible mobile army. I've beat zerg armies nearly double my size because of the Mother ship (Good placement of vortex and you can do more that that.

However against Terran players it is far less effective. Scanner sweep nullifies you hidden army. That said you can tick Terran's into wasting their scanner sweep by parking a mothership off their base and bringing units in and out to harass.

That all said I wish they would speed up the Mothership. It does fly very slow. Currently it does much better as a base defense than assault.

On May 23 2010 00:31 phyvo wrote:


I saw screw intention. Intention is why, for no particular reason, archons are as bad as they are now. Blizzard sees no need for change because they "intend" archons to only be consolation for running out of energy with your templar.

The mothership would be a lot more fun if it could be used offensively, just like archons would be more fun if they were meant to actually be useful.

Besides, if Starcraft was just what it was "intended" to be we'd never have gotten a pro-scene in the first place.

On May 27 2010 06:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I don't know what you're talkin about how Vortex would overlap with any Protoss ability, it's damn effective and is the solution (or just a very powerful spell) to big balled armies that are so common in SC2...

I've also had mass recall used effectively in a ladder game, I was terran and my opponent had gone mass void ray and I was camping with a ton of Turrets and a relatively fortified position. Map had been nearly mined out, and I had tons of anti-air vs his void rays (vikings, turrets, etc.). Well in comes a Mothership after he clears out around 5 turrets with void rays and mass recalls like a 50-70 supply army into my base (yes the Mothership died RIGHT after the recall as i was targeting it with vikings, but the massive HP was too much), where my siege tanks and bunkers were at the natural and on the ramp in siege mode.

Situational, yes, but I feel taht's what a Mothership should be, a situational late game solution unit.

On May 27 2010 06:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I don't know what you're talkin about how Vortex would overlap with any Protoss ability, it's damn effective and is the solution (or just a very powerful spell) to big balled armies that are so common in SC2...

I've also had mass recall used effectively in a ladder game, I was terran and my opponent had gone mass void ray and I was camping with a ton of Turrets and a relatively fortified position. Map had been nearly mined out, and I had tons of anti-air vs his void rays (vikings, turrets, etc.). Well in comes a Mothership after he clears out around 5 turrets with void rays and mass recalls like a 50-70 supply army into my base (yes the Mothership died RIGHT after the recall as i was targeting it with vikings, but the massive HP was too much), where my siege tanks and bunkers were at the natural and on the ramp in siege mode.

Situational, yes, but I feel taht's what a Mothership should be, a situational late game solution unit.

On May 27 2010 06:11 Ideas wrote:

purpose of vortex: split up enemy army

one of many purposes of forcefield: split up enemy army

On May 27 2010 06:11 Ideas wrote:


purpose of vortex: split up enemy army

one of many purposes of forcefield: split up enemy army

On May 27 2010 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:


Vortex sucks them in and they completely stop fighting, and can often allow you to get 70% of their army so you can easily pick off the rest, then reposition yourself close to the enemy so after vortex ends your units annihilate them, especially against Terran. Forcefield doesn't even come close to accomplishing that. Yes, it can split up the enemy army, which can still fight. If you have a super strong ball, forcefield does wonders, don't get me wrong, but it won't accomplish what a vortex will.

Vortex is the equivalent of SC1 how you could stasis tanks, then move your army right next to them as the stasis wore off and instantly destroy them, except that you get to stasis like 70% of their army as opposed to 15%.

On May 27 2010 06:54 anyport1871 wrote:


They've butchered this game patch after patch.
Make units more responsive.
Take ultra and mothership out of game they dont work with this game.
I think units just do too much dmg in this game.
there is absolutly no micro in this game other than, oh snap his army is bigger i better back away.
No high ground advantage?? wtf? Your army needs only to touch the ramp to get vision so.... big advantage

The problem with ultra it died immediatly becuase ground armies in this game are balls of ranged death, there response, make it even more of a glass cannon.
Wth man.
This is a blatant and obvious troll, no super troll at blizzard. Come on man i was so excited about this game and its a flaming pile of dung

On May 27 2010 08:38 Opinion wrote:


Those are some sweet over exaggerations you have there, where did you pick those up?

On May 27 2010 08:46 RoarMan wrote:

Although anyport1871 is a tad brash, he is right in the regard that micro at the moment is limited to attack-move due to vastly improved Ai compared to Brood War. The mothership is also never seems to see action except for use in a more casual game.

Although I don't think Sc2 is butchered yet, it is Beta.

On May 27 2010 08:58 Sergeras wrote:
Even if it is Beta for the remaining time to release how can they fix all the problems,make units like the mothership actually viable somehow and not only the mothership in that regard.For 1 month until release they can't do much let alone "fix" the game.

On May 27 2010 08:46 RoarMan wrote:

Although anyport1871 is a tad brash, he is right in the regard that micro at the moment is limited to attack-move due to vastly improved Ai compared to Brood War. The mothership is also never seems to see action except for use in a more casual game.

Although I don't think Sc2 is butchered yet, it is Beta.

On May 27 2010 09:42 Perfect Balance wrote:
Blizzard development time for Protoss: 50%
Blizzard development time for Zerg: 25%
Blizzard development time for Terran: 25%

Remember when we first got to see the game? Zerg wasn't even IN the game at that point, but all the Protoss units and abilities were. At some point during the development, the financial people decided that it was time to "finish the game" quickly and worry about the details later. What we got was a game with only one interesting race that fits the game engine.

Terran and Zerg designs look like they've been made in a hurry, especially Zerg.

The fact that Protoss players complain about the ONE unit in their arsenal that doesn't completely own in some situation, is a testament to that fact. Of all the things wrong with Starcraft 2 and the races, the mothership is the last thing they should worry about..

The fact that Protoss players complain about the ONE unit in their arsenal that doesn't completely own in some situation, is a testament to that fact. Of all the things wrong with Starcraft 2 and the races, the mothership is the last thing they should worry about..

On May 27 2010 09:42 Perfect Balance wrote:
Blizzard development time for Protoss: 50%
Blizzard development time for Zerg: 25%
Blizzard development time for Terran: 25%

Remember when we first got to see the game? Zerg wasn't even IN the game at that point, but all the Protoss units and abilities were. At some point during the development, the financial people decided that it was time to "finish the game" quickly and worry about the details later. What we got was a game with only one interesting race that fits the game engine.

Terran and Zerg designs look like they've been made in a hurry, especially Zerg.

The fact that Protoss players complain about the ONE unit in their arsenal that doesn't completely own in some situation, is a testament to that fact. Of all the things wrong with Starcraft 2 and the races, the mothership is the last thing they should worry about..

On May 27 2010 09:57 Kratisto wrote:


To be fair, I think most Protoss players find that Templar tech is lacking compared to Robotics and that if you're going to go with a Stargate early, there's absolutely no reason to get Fleet Beacon tech when you should just transition to Robotics after your cute Phoenix or Void Ray harass. Dark Templars, in particular, seem suicidal since they have a huge build time and resource investment, but without the High Templar transition at the end. The Mothership is just a laughing stock, and if the Battlecruiser, Carrier, and Ultralisk are useless, the Mothership is an outright insult.

There are some units that just aren't going to see certain levels of competitive play (unless it's an LOL LOOK HOW MUCH MUNEY I HAV! dig at the other player), and that's fine, and we're aware and ok with that being the case, just as long as it's something we've planned for and are balancing for.

On June 09 2010 15:13 Sentenal wrote:
I like the Mothership being bad. With the Mothership being bad, that makes my Mothership rush extremely more hilarious when I manage to beat newbies in Placement matches with it.