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well, i'm not in the beta at all, but i have spent some time watching casted matches on tl.
well, as everyone knows, its not uncommon in z v p to see centuries (or what ever they are called) pretty much split a massive z army in half w/ force fields, and then procede to kill the closest half while the other half retreats. This got me wondering on why is it not common place (for at least the games i've seen played) to see z just burrow their units untill the force fields ware of?? of course the toss can't see burrowed units untill they have obs, and surly burrowing could keep your units alive in most early mid game toss pushes.
so what do you guyz think? is burrowing vs forcefields viable? or is it just a bad idea/ impratical???
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Good idea!
In fact, there's a thread going on right now with a bunch of butthurt zerg players saying they can't find any good uses for burrow. Why don't you post this there, too? 
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On April 26 2010 04:57 ComradeDover wrote:Good idea! In fact, there's a thread going on right now with a bunch of butthurt zerg players saying they can't find any good uses for burrow. Why don't you post this there, too?
can u link it? (2 lazy to search) _^_
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Impraticable above silver (because they often don't bother getting an observer), you have access to observers around the same time we have access to burrow.
Tho burrowed roaches can move under a force field, but they're so slow that they usually die before being able to un-burrow...
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On April 26 2010 04:58 skippy2591 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 04:57 ComradeDover wrote:Good idea! In fact, there's a thread going on right now with a bunch of butthurt zerg players saying they can't find any good uses for burrow. Why don't you post this there, too? can u link it? (2 lazy to search) _^_
That's not a good attitude. Also, you should put more effort in your OP than calling sentries "centuries".
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the zerg player will lose several units during the burrowing process and the toss player will probably still have enough energy to setup more forcefields after the old ones wear off.
that's if the toss doesn't have an observer. If he's got an observer you basically just lost.
It's been more common to see zerg's burrow-moving under forcefield to get at a turtling protoss player.
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On April 26 2010 05:01 Scorch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 04:58 skippy2591 wrote:On April 26 2010 04:57 ComradeDover wrote:Good idea! In fact, there's a thread going on right now with a bunch of butthurt zerg players saying they can't find any good uses for burrow. Why don't you post this there, too? can u link it? (2 lazy to search) _^_ That's not a good attitude. Also, you should put more effort in your OP than calling sentries "centuries".
lol, ur rite, that waz a lil bm on my part. sorry ^^
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I still see this as a viable alternative to having your roaches sit there and be cut down by zealots. If you have a primarily roach army and you get split by forcefields, the trapped roaches can burrow while the roaches behind the forcefields can provide cover. Even if you take on a few losses, it's nothing compared to what you would take by just sitting on your thumb and watching your roaches die, and once you get your guys out, you've pretty much turned zealot/sentry vs roach on it's head.
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any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter
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On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter
Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no.
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On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no.
How would you stand and lose everything? The question is if you can get burrow by the time they get their observer so you can hide your army if they get caught behind a forcefield.
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On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no.
especially since the units on the side closes to the toss force is going to just be failing at an attemp to retret and not attacking. If burrow were to save only one out of say 6 that got caught, then why not use it? they are all doomed nnewayz.
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On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no.
What? How is that relevant whatsoever? How is burrowing saving you a SINGLE unit?
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You can burrow your roaches (and infestors) and move right through force fields so yeah, more players should be incorporating this to fall back through force fields with roaches
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Shouldn't you consider the fact that you need Lair tech before you can research burrow? Sentries can come out pretty early in the game, and by Lair tech you probably have other ways and more effective units to deal with forcefield. Either that, or Protoss has observers or a big enough army that it won't matter.
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Couldn't it be also said that any good Zerg player will have an overseer to spot and kill obs?
I think the use of burrow to survive force fields is a nifty idea and worth experimenting with as opposed to just saying "it won't work vs good players"
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On April 26 2010 05:15 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no. What? How is that relevant whatsoever? How is burrowing saving you a SINGLE unit?
You are aware Roaches (And Infestors, I guess) can move while burrowed? Which means they can move to the other side of the forcefield, and the same thing that was trapping them is now holding back a mass of rushing zealots?
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On April 26 2010 05:17 shindigs wrote:
Shouldn't you consider the fact that you need Lair tech before you can research burrow? Sentries can come out pretty early in the game, and by Lair tech you probably have other ways and more effective units to deal with forcefield. Either that, or Protoss has observers or a big enough army that it won't matter.
the fact is definantly considered by me, and hopefully everyone else reading/ responding to this.
Really though, below the surface of this question could also be why not just go for that burrow insted of that extra unit. surly burrow can pay for itself over time, and surly 100/100 isn't that much of an investment, especially since that indicates you have hive tech already ( which usually/ sometimes indicates a strong enough economy to support it)
i personally think burrow can be used effectively, even if the protoss player has the tech to "counter" it. And besides, what are the chances that every single time you set up a burrow ambush, the toss player will spot it and kill it?
shouldn't that just convince us to find ways of using it more effecitvely rather than shoot it down instantly?? O.O?
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On April 26 2010 05:20 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no. What? How is that relevant whatsoever? How is burrowing saving you a SINGLE unit? You are aware Roaches (And Infestors, I guess) can move while burrowed? Which means they can move to the other side of the forcefield, and the same thing that was trapping them is now holding back a mass of rushing zealots?
Moving while burrowing costs is an upgrade that is 150/150.
In order to deal with forcefield with burrow, that is lair tech 150/100 + burrow 100/100 + move while burrowed 150/150.
Those are pretty steep costs just to deal with an ability that comes right of the box of a tier 1 unit. It seems that Protoss would get observers by that time anyway as well.
EDIT: However, I do agree that the method of burrowing away from forcefield is an effective way to deal with mass forcefields. Just consider how much goes into getting to that point where it's not just a matter of "can't you just quickly refer to option burrow?"
Also consider that only roaches and infestors can MOVE burrow, not every zerg army.
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EPT
