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Burrow vs force field - Page 3

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shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
April 25 2010 21:11 GMT
#41
On April 26 2010 06:09 ComradeDover wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 26 2010 06:08 shindigs wrote:
On April 26 2010 05:59 ComradeDover wrote:
On April 26 2010 05:57 shindigs wrote:
Because you weren't ever going to get lair tech if it wasn't for burrow, right? Come on now.


Lair tech is not a decision a Zerg player should make "out of the blue." Like any tech building, you have to decide the appropriate time to build it because it takes time and resources that can be spent on more early game units.

Assuming you want burrow ASAP, that means you want Lair ASAP, which means using up 150/100 early game which is quite a lot earlier on.


Who said anything about ASAP? I'm simply calling you on how unfair it is to factor in the cost of lair tech. That would be like me talking about the cost of barracks and factories when I want to get Ravens.


ASAP is of course the extreme example.

What I want to get through is that Lair tech isn't just a cost of 150/100. Lair tech is a cost of early-game decision making.

If you Lair tech too early, it's a matter of whether or not you'll get attacked by your opponent who decided to invest in a more aggressive early game to counter your tech build.

If you Lair tech too late, it's a matter of whether or not you fall behind your opponent on the tech tree.

It's more of a matter of not wanting to Lair too early, because if your opponent sees that, he knows that you spent money on a Lair, which is money that could have been spent on defense, and he knows there's an opening to attack. That's the tension in the decision.

It's the same with Terran or Protoss with their tech buildings. It's just that we're discussing Lair because that is involved with the burrow debate.


You're doing a very good job of explaining to me why the timing of one's Lair is important, but a really crappy job of explaining to me why you feel the cost of the lair should be factored into your calculation of getting burrow.


The cost is directly related to the timing. The timing in which you spend your 150/100 is crucial early game since the value of 150/100 means a lot more then than it does in a mid or late game.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
Wehrendzehrer
Profile Joined December 2009
United States7 Posts
April 25 2010 21:58 GMT
#42
I'm relatively new here to TL, and I don't have SC2 Beta, but I have a few ideas I think could be constructive. My first thought after reading the OP was that of strategy. In SC1, burrowed units could get hit by HT's storm, and Obs usually were already being produced. But in SC2, the Templar tech is far back enough that Observers seem the much safer choice for general strategy. All things considered, the P might as well get fast Obs if they scout Roaches - good scouting opportunities + detect burrowed Roaches seem to outweigh Storm by a great deal. I can't see burrow-enhanced Roaches and Infesters faring well against an build that gets fast Obs, since the Sentry is close by in the tech tree.

Rather than burrow tech, I think that quickly setting up a Nydus to either flank the P's army or backstab their expos/tech would be much more viable options. Think about it this way: If the P chokes or blocks his own army to defend a base or to push back the Z's army, they temporarily lose map control. If the P is on his way to attack (note 1) and the Z forces him to cast FF to split your defense, he'd be postponing his own attack and a backstab would force him to retreat.

Unfortunately, these ideas only work if the P isn't already in your base - I've watched a few replays where combination FF + smartcast guarantees the destruction of Zerg buildings once they're inside the base. It's difficult to stop armies when they're already in your base, and trying to preserve units like roaches with burrow while your tech buildings and hatcheries are getting raped is simply "gg" IMO.

So, in response, I don't really think that burrow would be a viable expense against a Core BO. I would probably keep them contained as long as I could while I expanded and got some more useful tech like Hydras and/or Mutas, pending their Sentry count.

Again, I'm new here and have only a few SC2 replays in my repertoire - I'm not going to pretend to be an authority on SC2 Beta.

Note 1: My theorycrafting here would only really be effective in cases where there's already a natural choke that a P might naturally opt to use FF on to close completely, or choke to the point that it severely limits the P's unit mobility.
-:Theorycrafting, as usual.:- (._.)-b
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