EPTAlso consider that only roaches and infestors can burrow, not every zerg army.
wait, lings can't burrow?? And i sware ultras... wait, are ultras even in the beta?? (sorry, noob question, but i don't want to be grandstanding stupidly >.<
Burrow vs force field - Page 2
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skippy2591
United States46 Posts
Also consider that only roaches and infestors can burrow, not every zerg army. wait, lings can't burrow?? And i sware ultras... wait, are ultras even in the beta?? (sorry, noob question, but i don't want to be grandstanding stupidly >.< | ||
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:29 skippy2591 wrote: wait, lings can't burrow?? And i sware ultras... wait, are ultras even in the beta?? (sorry, noob question, but i don't want to be grandstanding stupidly >.< Ah sorry! I meant move while burrowed. Ultras are in the beta though, and can burrow =) | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
Two things to consider: -Always always always try to engage a T or P army by using burrowwalk with roaches. The main problem with roaches is that it's hard as hell to get them all attacking at once. Burrowwalk is the solution to that. -Burrow messes up ai targeting. Units which are burrowed won't draw much fire. If you have units inside a wall of force fields and units outside, burrow the ones inside and move them out. The ones outside will draw the majority of the fire enabling you to move their friends across the barriers unharmed. The same works in reverse if you want to move units into their army across force fields. And as a final note: If you get stuck in a situation where you can't get roaches in the back to attack (narrow choke, craptons of forcefields, etc) Burrow them and move them into the enemy. It's better than having them chill in the back ranks waiting for a chance to get blown up. | ||
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Funchucks
Canada2113 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
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skippy2591
United States46 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:37 Funchucks wrote: Never mind burrowing under force fields, I'm still waiting to see someone use roach burrowed movement to rotate damaged roaches off the front to regenerate and let fresh ones move forward. that sir, is probably what the korean zergs are perfecting atm ^^ | ||
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semantics
10040 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:16 -orb- wrote: You can burrow your roaches (and infestors) and move right through force fields so yeah, more players should be incorporating this to fall back through force fields with roaches except a good zerg army isn't pure roaches, although that may be useful in some instances if you just fall back you'll always loose, loose army and toss will just wait again till he has enough forcefields. The only good thing to od is put your roaches behind your other units and burrow to move up your roaches to the rest of your army, except roach burrow is now so slow ff prob wear off before you could get them though. | ||
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Prometheus2011
Kazakhstan76 Posts
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
Again, I agree burrowing out of a forcefield is a great way to avoid it. However, getting to the point of moving while burrowing is a lot of resources spent. The issue is that Protoss can get observers if they see burrow trickery approaching and they can probably get it the same time Zerg gets all the upgrades to move burrowed roaches. | ||
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:25 shindigs wrote: Moving while burrowing costs is an upgrade that is 150/150. In order to deal with forcefield with burrow, that is lair tech 150/100 + burrow 100/100 + move while burrowed 150/150. Those are pretty steep costs just to deal with an ability that comes right of the box of a tier 1 unit. It seems that Protoss would get observers by that time anyway as well. EDIT: However, I do agree that the method of burrowing away from forcefield is an effective way to deal with mass forcefields. Just consider how much goes into getting to that point where it's not just a matter of "can't you just quickly refer to option burrow?" Also consider that only roaches and infestors can MOVE burrow, not every zerg army. Because you weren't ever going to get lair tech if it wasn't for burrow, right? Come on now. On April 26 2010 05:42 semantics wrote: except a good zerg army isn't pure roaches, although that may be useful in some instances if you just fall back you'll always loose, loose army and toss will just wait again till he has enough forcefields. The only good thing to od is put your roaches behind your other units and burrow to move up your roaches to the rest of your army, except roach burrow is now so slow ff prob wear off before you could get them though. But a good Zerg army will put the roaches in the front, and if any unit is likely to be split off from the rest of the army, it's those in front. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
Because you weren't ever going to get lair tech if it wasn't for burrow, right? Come on now. Lair tech is not a decision a Zerg player should make "out of the blue." Like any tech building, you have to decide the appropriate time to build it because it takes time and resources that can be spent on more early game units. Assuming you want burrow ASAP, that means you want Lair ASAP, which means using up 150/100 early game which is quite a lot earlier on. | ||
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skippy2591
United States46 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:55 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: If we're assuming every toss follows his army with an obs, can we also assume every zerg army has an overseer and hydras to kill the obs? lol, nice one. i think its very valid to say that since assumptions are obviously being made all willy-nilly | ||
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:57 shindigs wrote: Lair tech is not a decision a Zerg player should make "out of the blue." Like any tech building, you have to decide the appropriate time to build it because it takes time and resources that can be spent on more early game units. Assuming you want burrow ASAP, that means you want Lair ASAP, which means using up 150/100 early game which is quite a lot earlier on. Who said anything about ASAP? I'm simply calling you on how unfair it is to factor in the cost of lair tech. That would be like me talking about the cost of barracks and factories when I want to get Ravens. | ||
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skippy2591
United States46 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:48 shindigs wrote: It's not that simple of a solution. Again, I agree burrowing out of a forcefield is a great way to avoid it. However, getting to the point of moving while burrowing is a lot of resources spent. The issue is that Protoss can get observers if they see burrow trickery approaching and they can probably get it the same time Zerg gets all the upgrades to move burrowed roaches. and if the protoss begains rushing to get an obs, and you were never planing on using burrow trickery for offensive/ sneeky stuff (ie, u only planed on getting burrow), then arn't you still comeing out on top since you pressured the other player to build some stuff that he didn't want in the first place?? | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote: any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter where does that assertion come from? That's obviously true of a starcraft 1 game but in SC2 observers have not been necessary with your main army. No lurkers or cloaked zerg units that you need to worry about so why put up extra cash for an obs? Maybe a few tosses if they are paranoid about burrowed infestors but that's about it. To the op. I like the idea and I'll definitely try incorporating it as recently I've been thinking of ways to use burrowed roaches more due to there regen. | ||
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
I've always wondered if it would work. | ||
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:59 ComradeDover wrote: Who said anything about ASAP? I'm simply calling you on how unfair it is to factor in the cost of lair tech. That would be like me talking about the cost of barracks and factories when I want to get Ravens. ASAP is of course the extreme example. What I want to get through is that Lair tech isn't just a cost of 150/100. Lair tech is a cost of early-game decision making. If you Lair tech too early, it's a matter of whether or not you'll get attacked by your opponent who decided to invest in a more aggressive early game to counter your tech build. If you Lair tech too late, it's a matter of whether or not you fall behind your opponent on the tech tree. It's more of a matter of not wanting to Lair too early, because if your opponent sees that, he knows that you spent money on a Lair, which is money that could have been spent on defense, and he knows there's an opening to attack. That's the tension in the decision. It's the same with Terran or Protoss with their tech buildings. It's just that we're discussing Lair because that is involved with the burrow debate. On April 26 2010 06:04 KungKras wrote: Has anyone tried rushing burrowed roaches past the protoss force field wall and into his mineral line? I've always wondered if it would work. My friend does this when we 2v2, and it actually works most of the time. I feel usually it's because the attention is split since I usually followup with my army in the front door. | ||
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ComradeDover
Bulgaria758 Posts
On April 26 2010 06:08 shindigs wrote: ASAP is of course the extreme example. What I want to get through is that Lair tech isn't just a cost of 150/100. Lair tech is a cost of early-game decision making. If you Lair tech too early, it's a matter of whether or not you'll get attacked by your opponent who decided to invest in a more aggressive early game to counter your tech build. If you Lair tech too late, it's a matter of whether or not you fall behind your opponent on the tech tree. It's more of a matter of not wanting to Lair too early, because if your opponent sees that, he knows that you spent money on a Lair, which is money that could have been spent on defense, and he knows there's an opening to attack. That's the tension in the decision. It's the same with Terran or Protoss with their tech buildings. It's just that we're discussing Lair because that is involved with the burrow debate. You're doing a very good job of explaining to me why the timing of one's Lair is important, but a really crappy job of explaining to me why you feel the cost of the lair should be factored into your calculation of getting burrow. | ||
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skippy2591
United States46 Posts
On April 26 2010 05:59 ComradeDover wrote: Who said anything about ASAP? I'm simply calling you on how unfair it is to factor in the cost of lair tech. That would be like me talking about the cost of barracks and factories when I want to get Ravens. ok u two, both of you are making valid points, and in hopes of solving a potintal extended exchange, i will say this for both parties: to ComradeDover: ok we get where ur comeing from, but still, whats wrong with counting the cost when you considering going to it? technically speaking ur going to have to spend that money on it all eventyally, so whats wrong with planning out the cost? to shindigs: Once again, the point u have made is true in some respects, but i think ComradeDover waz basically getting at waz the fact that the way u mentioned the cost waz like u were saying thats a massive amout of money to spend all at once, and Its clear that not all that money is spent all at once. Obviously ur getting things when you need to/can, and obviously your not just getting those things for ONLY one thing. Yes, lair tech is expensive and all, but it has multiple uses, and is pretty much vital to later game stuff | ||
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