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well, i'm not in the beta at all, but i have spent some time watching casted matches on tl.
well, as everyone knows, its not uncommon in z v p to see centuries (or what ever they are called) pretty much split a massive z army in half w/ force fields, and then procede to kill the closest half while the other half retreats. This got me wondering on why is it not common place (for at least the games i've seen played) to see z just burrow their units untill the force fields ware of?? of course the toss can't see burrowed units untill they have obs, and surly burrowing could keep your units alive in most early mid game toss pushes.
so what do you guyz think? is burrowing vs forcefields viable? or is it just a bad idea/ impratical???
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Good idea!
In fact, there's a thread going on right now with a bunch of butthurt zerg players saying they can't find any good uses for burrow. Why don't you post this there, too? 
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On April 26 2010 04:57 ComradeDover wrote:Good idea! In fact, there's a thread going on right now with a bunch of butthurt zerg players saying they can't find any good uses for burrow. Why don't you post this there, too?
can u link it? (2 lazy to search) _^_
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Impraticable above silver (because they often don't bother getting an observer), you have access to observers around the same time we have access to burrow.
Tho burrowed roaches can move under a force field, but they're so slow that they usually die before being able to un-burrow...
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On April 26 2010 04:58 skippy2591 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 04:57 ComradeDover wrote:Good idea! In fact, there's a thread going on right now with a bunch of butthurt zerg players saying they can't find any good uses for burrow. Why don't you post this there, too? can u link it? (2 lazy to search) _^_
That's not a good attitude. Also, you should put more effort in your OP than calling sentries "centuries".
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the zerg player will lose several units during the burrowing process and the toss player will probably still have enough energy to setup more forcefields after the old ones wear off.
that's if the toss doesn't have an observer. If he's got an observer you basically just lost.
It's been more common to see zerg's burrow-moving under forcefield to get at a turtling protoss player.
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On April 26 2010 05:01 Scorch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 04:58 skippy2591 wrote:On April 26 2010 04:57 ComradeDover wrote:Good idea! In fact, there's a thread going on right now with a bunch of butthurt zerg players saying they can't find any good uses for burrow. Why don't you post this there, too? can u link it? (2 lazy to search) _^_ That's not a good attitude. Also, you should put more effort in your OP than calling sentries "centuries".
lol, ur rite, that waz a lil bm on my part. sorry ^^
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I still see this as a viable alternative to having your roaches sit there and be cut down by zealots. If you have a primarily roach army and you get split by forcefields, the trapped roaches can burrow while the roaches behind the forcefields can provide cover. Even if you take on a few losses, it's nothing compared to what you would take by just sitting on your thumb and watching your roaches die, and once you get your guys out, you've pretty much turned zealot/sentry vs roach on it's head.
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any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter
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On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter
Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no.
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On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no.
How would you stand and lose everything? The question is if you can get burrow by the time they get their observer so you can hide your army if they get caught behind a forcefield.
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On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no.
especially since the units on the side closes to the toss force is going to just be failing at an attemp to retret and not attacking. If burrow were to save only one out of say 6 that got caught, then why not use it? they are all doomed nnewayz.
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On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no.
What? How is that relevant whatsoever? How is burrowing saving you a SINGLE unit?
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You can burrow your roaches (and infestors) and move right through force fields so yeah, more players should be incorporating this to fall back through force fields with roaches
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Shouldn't you consider the fact that you need Lair tech before you can research burrow? Sentries can come out pretty early in the game, and by Lair tech you probably have other ways and more effective units to deal with forcefield. Either that, or Protoss has observers or a big enough army that it won't matter.
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Couldn't it be also said that any good Zerg player will have an overseer to spot and kill obs?
I think the use of burrow to survive force fields is a nifty idea and worth experimenting with as opposed to just saying "it won't work vs good players"
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On April 26 2010 05:15 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no. What? How is that relevant whatsoever? How is burrowing saving you a SINGLE unit?
You are aware Roaches (And Infestors, I guess) can move while burrowed? Which means they can move to the other side of the forcefield, and the same thing that was trapping them is now holding back a mass of rushing zealots?
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On April 26 2010 05:17 shindigs wrote:
Shouldn't you consider the fact that you need Lair tech before you can research burrow? Sentries can come out pretty early in the game, and by Lair tech you probably have other ways and more effective units to deal with forcefield. Either that, or Protoss has observers or a big enough army that it won't matter.
the fact is definantly considered by me, and hopefully everyone else reading/ responding to this.
Really though, below the surface of this question could also be why not just go for that burrow insted of that extra unit. surly burrow can pay for itself over time, and surly 100/100 isn't that much of an investment, especially since that indicates you have hive tech already ( which usually/ sometimes indicates a strong enough economy to support it)
i personally think burrow can be used effectively, even if the protoss player has the tech to "counter" it. And besides, what are the chances that every single time you set up a burrow ambush, the toss player will spot it and kill it?
shouldn't that just convince us to find ways of using it more effecitvely rather than shoot it down instantly?? O.O?
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On April 26 2010 05:20 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no. What? How is that relevant whatsoever? How is burrowing saving you a SINGLE unit? You are aware Roaches (And Infestors, I guess) can move while burrowed? Which means they can move to the other side of the forcefield, and the same thing that was trapping them is now holding back a mass of rushing zealots?
Moving while burrowing costs is an upgrade that is 150/150.
In order to deal with forcefield with burrow, that is lair tech 150/100 + burrow 100/100 + move while burrowed 150/150.
Those are pretty steep costs just to deal with an ability that comes right of the box of a tier 1 unit. It seems that Protoss would get observers by that time anyway as well.
EDIT: However, I do agree that the method of burrowing away from forcefield is an effective way to deal with mass forcefields. Just consider how much goes into getting to that point where it's not just a matter of "can't you just quickly refer to option burrow?"
Also consider that only roaches and infestors can MOVE burrow, not every zerg army.
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Also consider that only roaches and infestors can burrow, not every zerg army.
wait, lings can't burrow?? And i sware ultras... wait, are ultras even in the beta?? (sorry, noob question, but i don't want to be grandstanding stupidly >.<
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On April 26 2010 05:29 skippy2591 wrote:Show nested quote +
Also consider that only roaches and infestors can burrow, not every zerg army.
wait, lings can't burrow?? And i sware ultras... wait, are ultras even in the beta?? (sorry, noob question, but i don't want to be grandstanding stupidly >.<
Ah sorry! I meant move while burrowed.
Ultras are in the beta though, and can burrow =)
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Yes, finally someone makes this point. This is something I strongly suggest to all zergs who have issues with mass sentry armies. A lot of protoss players won't even HAVE an obs with their force, even at high level. A lot of players opt for late robos, or just pump pure immortal out of them.
Two things to consider:
-Always always always try to engage a T or P army by using burrowwalk with roaches. The main problem with roaches is that it's hard as hell to get them all attacking at once. Burrowwalk is the solution to that.
-Burrow messes up ai targeting. Units which are burrowed won't draw much fire. If you have units inside a wall of force fields and units outside, burrow the ones inside and move them out. The ones outside will draw the majority of the fire enabling you to move their friends across the barriers unharmed. The same works in reverse if you want to move units into their army across force fields.
And as a final note: If you get stuck in a situation where you can't get roaches in the back to attack (narrow choke, craptons of forcefields, etc) Burrow them and move them into the enemy. It's better than having them chill in the back ranks waiting for a chance to get blown up.
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Never mind burrowing under force fields, I'm still waiting to see someone use roach burrowed movement to rotate damaged roaches off the front to regenerate and let fresh ones move forward.
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Also, doesn't the roach movement speed upgrade increase roach movespeed while burrowed? And additionally, roaches regen hp at a pretty fast rate whiled burrowed also right? So burrowing them and moving them out of FF should not only save a few of them but also heal hem as well yes?
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On April 26 2010 05:37 Funchucks wrote:
Never mind burrowing under force fields, I'm still waiting to see someone use roach burrowed movement to rotate damaged roaches off the front to regenerate and let fresh ones move forward.
that sir, is probably what the korean zergs are perfecting atm ^^
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On April 26 2010 05:16 -orb- wrote:
You can burrow your roaches (and infestors) and move right through force fields so yeah, more players should be incorporating this to fall back through force fields with roaches
except a good zerg army isn't pure roaches, although that may be useful in some instances if you just fall back you'll always loose, loose army and toss will just wait again till he has enough forcefields. The only good thing to od is put your roaches behind your other units and burrow to move up your roaches to the rest of your army, except roach burrow is now so slow ff prob wear off before you could get them though.
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Or u can just fungal growth them and run away...
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It's not that simple of a solution.
Again, I agree burrowing out of a forcefield is a great way to avoid it. However, getting to the point of moving while burrowing is a lot of resources spent.
The issue is that Protoss can get observers if they see burrow trickery approaching and they can probably get it the same time Zerg gets all the upgrades to move burrowed roaches.
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On April 26 2010 05:25 shindigs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:20 ComradeDover wrote:On April 26 2010 05:15 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 26 2010 05:11 ComradeDover wrote:On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter Does it really not matter? I'd rather burrow and take a few losses than stand and fight and lose everything, obs or no. What? How is that relevant whatsoever? How is burrowing saving you a SINGLE unit? You are aware Roaches (And Infestors, I guess) can move while burrowed? Which means they can move to the other side of the forcefield, and the same thing that was trapping them is now holding back a mass of rushing zealots? Moving while burrowing costs is an upgrade that is 150/150. In order to deal with forcefield with burrow, that is lair tech 150/100 + burrow 100/100 + move while burrowed 150/150. Those are pretty steep costs just to deal with an ability that comes right of the box of a tier 1 unit. It seems that Protoss would get observers by that time anyway as well. EDIT: However, I do agree that the method of burrowing away from forcefield is an effective way to deal with mass forcefields. Just consider how much goes into getting to that point where it's not just a matter of "can't you just quickly refer to option burrow?" Also consider that only roaches and infestors can MOVE burrow, not every zerg army.
Because you weren't ever going to get lair tech if it wasn't for burrow, right? Come on now.
On April 26 2010 05:42 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:16 -orb- wrote:
You can burrow your roaches (and infestors) and move right through force fields so yeah, more players should be incorporating this to fall back through force fields with roaches except a good zerg army isn't pure roaches, although that may be useful in some instances if you just fall back you'll always loose, loose army and toss will just wait again till he has enough forcefields. The only good thing to od is put your roaches behind your other units and burrow to move up your roaches to the rest of your army, except roach burrow is now so slow ff prob wear off before you could get them though.
But a good Zerg army will put the roaches in the front, and if any unit is likely to be split off from the rest of the army, it's those in front.
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If we're assuming every toss follows his army with an obs, can we also assume every zerg army has an overseer and hydras to kill the obs?
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Because you weren't ever going to get lair tech if it wasn't for burrow, right? Come on now.
Lair tech is not a decision a Zerg player should make "out of the blue." Like any tech building, you have to decide the appropriate time to build it because it takes time and resources that can be spent on more early game units.
Assuming you want burrow ASAP, that means you want Lair ASAP, which means using up 150/100 early game which is quite a lot earlier on.
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On April 26 2010 05:55 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
If we're assuming every toss follows his army with an obs, can we also assume every zerg army has an overseer and hydras to kill the obs?
lol, nice one. i think its very valid to say that since assumptions are obviously being made all willy-nilly
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On April 26 2010 05:57 shindigs wrote:Show nested quote +Because you weren't ever going to get lair tech if it wasn't for burrow, right? Come on now.
Lair tech is not a decision a Zerg player should make "out of the blue." Like any tech building, you have to decide the appropriate time to build it because it takes time and resources that can be spent on more early game units. Assuming you want burrow ASAP, that means you want Lair ASAP, which means using up 150/100 early game which is quite a lot earlier on.
Who said anything about ASAP? I'm simply calling you on how unfair it is to factor in the cost of lair tech. That would be like me talking about the cost of barracks and factories when I want to get Ravens.
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On April 26 2010 05:48 shindigs wrote:
It's not that simple of a solution.
Again, I agree burrowing out of a forcefield is a great way to avoid it. However, getting to the point of moving while burrowing is a lot of resources spent.
The issue is that Protoss can get observers if they see burrow trickery approaching and they can probably get it the same time Zerg gets all the upgrades to move burrowed roaches.
and if the protoss begains rushing to get an obs, and you were never planing on using burrow trickery for offensive/ sneeky stuff (ie, u only planed on getting burrow), then arn't you still comeing out on top since you pressured the other player to build some stuff that he didn't want in the first place??
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On April 26 2010 05:10 Limenade wrote:
any good toss player will have an obs with them in their fights so this doesnt matter
where does that assertion come from? That's obviously true of a starcraft 1 game but in SC2 observers have not been necessary with your main army. No lurkers or cloaked zerg units that you need to worry about so why put up extra cash for an obs? Maybe a few tosses if they are paranoid about burrowed infestors but that's about it.
To the op. I like the idea and I'll definitely try incorporating it as recently I've been thinking of ways to use burrowed roaches more due to there regen.
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Has anyone tried rushing burrowed roaches past the protoss force field wall and into his mineral line?
I've always wondered if it would work.
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On April 26 2010 05:59 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:57 shindigs wrote:Because you weren't ever going to get lair tech if it wasn't for burrow, right? Come on now.
Lair tech is not a decision a Zerg player should make "out of the blue." Like any tech building, you have to decide the appropriate time to build it because it takes time and resources that can be spent on more early game units. Assuming you want burrow ASAP, that means you want Lair ASAP, which means using up 150/100 early game which is quite a lot earlier on. Who said anything about ASAP? I'm simply calling you on how unfair it is to factor in the cost of lair tech. That would be like me talking about the cost of barracks and factories when I want to get Ravens.
ASAP is of course the extreme example.
What I want to get through is that Lair tech isn't just a cost of 150/100. Lair tech is a cost of early-game decision making.
If you Lair tech too early, it's a matter of whether or not you'll get attacked by your opponent who decided to invest in a more aggressive early game to counter your tech build.
If you Lair tech too late, it's a matter of whether or not you fall behind your opponent on the tech tree.
It's more of a matter of not wanting to Lair too early, because if your opponent sees that, he knows that you spent money on a Lair, which is money that could have been spent on defense, and he knows there's an opening to attack. That's the tension in the decision.
It's the same with Terran or Protoss with their tech buildings. It's just that we're discussing Lair because that is involved with the burrow debate.
On April 26 2010 06:04 KungKras wrote:
Has anyone tried rushing burrowed roaches past the protoss force field wall and into his mineral line?
I've always wondered if it would work.
My friend does this when we 2v2, and it actually works most of the time. I feel usually it's because the attention is split since I usually followup with my army in the front door.
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On April 26 2010 06:08 shindigs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:59 ComradeDover wrote:On April 26 2010 05:57 shindigs wrote:Because you weren't ever going to get lair tech if it wasn't for burrow, right? Come on now.
Lair tech is not a decision a Zerg player should make "out of the blue." Like any tech building, you have to decide the appropriate time to build it because it takes time and resources that can be spent on more early game units. Assuming you want burrow ASAP, that means you want Lair ASAP, which means using up 150/100 early game which is quite a lot earlier on. Who said anything about ASAP? I'm simply calling you on how unfair it is to factor in the cost of lair tech. That would be like me talking about the cost of barracks and factories when I want to get Ravens. ASAP is of course the extreme example. What I want to get through is that Lair tech isn't just a cost of 150/100. Lair tech is a cost of early-game decision making. If you Lair tech too early, it's a matter of whether or not you'll get attacked by your opponent who decided to invest in a more aggressive early game to counter your tech build. If you Lair tech too late, it's a matter of whether or not you fall behind your opponent on the tech tree. It's more of a matter of not wanting to Lair too early, because if your opponent sees that, he knows that you spent money on a Lair, which is money that could have been spent on defense, and he knows there's an opening to attack. That's the tension in the decision. It's the same with Terran or Protoss with their tech buildings. It's just that we're discussing Lair because that is involved with the burrow debate.
You're doing a very good job of explaining to me why the timing of one's Lair is important, but a really crappy job of explaining to me why you feel the cost of the lair should be factored into your calculation of getting burrow.
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On April 26 2010 05:59 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 05:57 shindigs wrote:Because you weren't ever going to get lair tech if it wasn't for burrow, right? Come on now.
Lair tech is not a decision a Zerg player should make "out of the blue." Like any tech building, you have to decide the appropriate time to build it because it takes time and resources that can be spent on more early game units. Assuming you want burrow ASAP, that means you want Lair ASAP, which means using up 150/100 early game which is quite a lot earlier on. Who said anything about ASAP? I'm simply calling you on how unfair it is to factor in the cost of lair tech. That would be like me talking about the cost of barracks and factories when I want to get Ravens.
ok u two, both of you are making valid points, and in hopes of solving a potintal extended exchange, i will say this for both parties:
to ComradeDover: ok we get where ur comeing from, but still, whats wrong with counting the cost when you considering going to it? technically speaking ur going to have to spend that money on it all eventyally, so whats wrong with planning out the cost?
to shindigs: Once again, the point u have made is true in some respects, but i think ComradeDover waz basically getting at waz the fact that the way u mentioned the cost waz like u were saying thats a massive amout of money to spend all at once, and Its clear that not all that money is spent all at once. Obviously ur getting things when you need to/can, and obviously your not just getting those things for ONLY one thing. Yes, lair tech is expensive and all, but it has multiple uses, and is pretty much vital to later game stuff
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On April 26 2010 06:09 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 06:08 shindigs wrote:On April 26 2010 05:59 ComradeDover wrote:On April 26 2010 05:57 shindigs wrote:Because you weren't ever going to get lair tech if it wasn't for burrow, right? Come on now.
Lair tech is not a decision a Zerg player should make "out of the blue." Like any tech building, you have to decide the appropriate time to build it because it takes time and resources that can be spent on more early game units. Assuming you want burrow ASAP, that means you want Lair ASAP, which means using up 150/100 early game which is quite a lot earlier on. Who said anything about ASAP? I'm simply calling you on how unfair it is to factor in the cost of lair tech. That would be like me talking about the cost of barracks and factories when I want to get Ravens. ASAP is of course the extreme example. What I want to get through is that Lair tech isn't just a cost of 150/100. Lair tech is a cost of early-game decision making. If you Lair tech too early, it's a matter of whether or not you'll get attacked by your opponent who decided to invest in a more aggressive early game to counter your tech build. If you Lair tech too late, it's a matter of whether or not you fall behind your opponent on the tech tree. It's more of a matter of not wanting to Lair too early, because if your opponent sees that, he knows that you spent money on a Lair, which is money that could have been spent on defense, and he knows there's an opening to attack. That's the tension in the decision. It's the same with Terran or Protoss with their tech buildings. It's just that we're discussing Lair because that is involved with the burrow debate. You're doing a very good job of explaining to me why the timing of one's Lair is important, but a really crappy job of explaining to me why you feel the cost of the lair should be factored into your calculation of getting burrow.
The cost is directly related to the timing. The timing in which you spend your 150/100 is crucial early game since the value of 150/100 means a lot more then than it does in a mid or late game.
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I'm relatively new here to TL, and I don't have SC2 Beta, but I have a few ideas I think could be constructive. My first thought after reading the OP was that of strategy. In SC1, burrowed units could get hit by HT's storm, and Obs usually were already being produced. But in SC2, the Templar tech is far back enough that Observers seem the much safer choice for general strategy. All things considered, the P might as well get fast Obs if they scout Roaches - good scouting opportunities + detect burrowed Roaches seem to outweigh Storm by a great deal. I can't see burrow-enhanced Roaches and Infesters faring well against an build that gets fast Obs, since the Sentry is close by in the tech tree.
Rather than burrow tech, I think that quickly setting up a Nydus to either flank the P's army or backstab their expos/tech would be much more viable options. Think about it this way: If the P chokes or blocks his own army to defend a base or to push back the Z's army, they temporarily lose map control. If the P is on his way to attack (note 1) and the Z forces him to cast FF to split your defense, he'd be postponing his own attack and a backstab would force him to retreat.
Unfortunately, these ideas only work if the P isn't already in your base - I've watched a few replays where combination FF + smartcast guarantees the destruction of Zerg buildings once they're inside the base. It's difficult to stop armies when they're already in your base, and trying to preserve units like roaches with burrow while your tech buildings and hatcheries are getting raped is simply "gg" IMO.
So, in response, I don't really think that burrow would be a viable expense against a Core BO. I would probably keep them contained as long as I could while I expanded and got some more useful tech like Hydras and/or Mutas, pending their Sentry count.
Again, I'm new here and have only a few SC2 replays in my repertoire - I'm not going to pretend to be an authority on SC2 Beta.
Note 1: My theorycrafting here would only really be effective in cases where there's already a natural choke that a P might naturally opt to use FF on to close completely, or choke to the point that it severely limits the P's unit mobility.
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EPT
