|
Hello, I've been lurking these boards for about a month now, and I've been in the SC2 beta since day one. I wasn't an SC1 player, nor a spectator, but I played a lot of UMS games (not that that counts for anything). I've become fully engrossed in discussions of balance everywhere I can, and although my mechanical skills keep me playing at silver level, I feel like I've got a really good grasp on the game as a whole. I've played a total of about 600-700 games throughout the beta, almost entirely as Zerg. Although it took me a while to accept, I understand now why people say it takes a very, very long time to fully determine whether something is imbalanced.
What I'd like to discuss here is something that's been bothering me for a while - the upgrade cost of Burrow for the Zerg. Maybe it's just because I got a taste of the cheap burrow upgrade before it got nerfed and have been bitter ever since.
I feel like the original reason for the nerf was because of the roach being a little too powerful too early in the game... it was an indirect nerf that affected the entire race. Since then, the roach has received no less than four direct nerfs that have practically neutered the poor beast. Burrowed roach shenanigans are nowhere near as powerful as they originally were, so the reason for it getting nerfed originally (assuming my assumptions are true), no longer apply.
Originally, Burrow cost 50/50 and 50 seconds to research. Zerg were abusing the low-cost Roaches by double-gassing and teching straight to Lair, after which the burrow upgrade is practically negligible. Since Roaches get more utility out of burrowing than any other unit, Blizzard's approach feels like they completely neglect the fact that ALL zerg ground units can burrow.
I feel like Burrow is one of the strongest defining characteristics of the race, and strategic use of burrow should be strongly encouraged. In a similar fashion, Warp Gate tech is critical for any Protoss that uses gateways (ie, all of them). However, when proxy warpgate rushes were deemed to be too effective, they almost tripled the research time... but left the cost the same. Warp gate research costs 50/50, which is practically negligible. It comes from a structure that costs 150 minerals and no gas. Burrow costs 100/100 and the tech costs 150/100, which is significantly more expensive. Maybe I'm just wrong for even comparing these two mechanics in the first place, but I feel that they have a comparable effect on overall race effectiveness even if they are completely different.
I think reducing the 50/50 resource cost of Burrow while keeping at 100 seconds would be better balanced than it is now, since the original problem of imba-roaches no longer applies. With the cost as it is now, I'm much less inclined to get the upgrade at all in most games, regardless of how much I want it all the time.
Please discuss your thoughts on the subject.
|
ZvZ would become a roachfest again...is that what you want?
User was warned for this post
|
On April 25 2010 14:23 nTooMuch wrote:
ZvZ would become a roachfest again...is that what you want?
Did you even read what he said?
|
The cost is fine. Quit complaining about things which don't affect the game at all.
|
I disagree, burrow is already very strong. Aside from the obvious strengths of burrowed roaches, burrowed zerglings can deny expansions and give scouting info without your opponent knowing. Burrowed hydras can kill harassing air units or set up air units. Burrowed banelings are just wrong. I think 100/100 is a fair price for a very very powerful ability. Don't forget how much mileage zerglings and banelings also got out of fast burrow research.
|
On April 25 2010 14:23 nTooMuch wrote:
ZvZ would become a roachfest again...is that what you want?
Wow what a great argument u got there.
I kinda feel that burrow is still only usefull for roches, maybe its just me starting to play the beta and not having enough apm but every other unit dies way to fast for any kind of burrow micro(expect ultralisk). The thing is something i manage to click on a hydra that is damaged and burrow it but it still takes damage for 1 sec while burrowing.
So to summuarize i wouldnt mind for a lower cost or tech time, but i still think the only unit that will really be using it will be the roach.
|
I don't ever use burrow because 100min/gas is just idk I feel I could spend my resources better if I can research burrow was better when it was 50 min/gas 
|
I honestly can say I have never researched burrow since that patch, and I have almost complete forgotten about it. I recently watched a replay where a zerg burrowed some banelings to a devastating effect, and I it dawned on me that burrow did, infact, still exist. I tried to re-instate this into my play, but every time, I cringe at that cost. I simply cannot commit myself to spend the resources.
I absolutely think they need to lower the cost, even if they increase research time.
|
As opposed to speedling all in? It would still be a risky move to go roach in a ZvZ but it would be viable assuming you have good enough micro to do sufficient burrow saves.
He made a good post, I can only agree that right now burrow is very much underused. I think I've seen 2 replays where it was used, once by Slush, and another time by DIMAGA.
That being said maybe the problem lies in the players and not the cost, banshee cloak upgrade is 200/200 and I still get it for obvious reasons, and DT has a steep enough tech price as well.
|
i agree, burrow should be 50/50 again. There aren't THAT many things burrow can be really useful for, especially when everyone has detection. This would also encourage more burrowed baneling plays which i like seeing. Honestly though i don't think i see enough zergs using burrow.
|
nice op, good reasoning, i agree, and ntoomuch is a tool
|
As a Terran player, having to put up with 150/150 stim or 150/150 ghost cloak or 100/100 reaper speed, I just can't sympathize. Sorry. Just learn to put up with it. It still isn't that expensive.
|
On April 25 2010 14:32 AeroGear wrote:
That being said maybe the problem lies in the players and not the cost, banshee cloak upgrade is 200/200 and I still get it for obvious reasons, and DT has a steep enough tech price as well.
I think burrow is fundamentally different from other cloaking upgrades. Banshee cloak and DTs are justifiably expensive because of the insane damage capabilities that both of these units have, and they're used more to abuse the opponent's lack of detection and/or anti-air.
No units can attack from burrow, and only two of them can even move while burrowed... one insanely slowly and the other requiring an expensive upgrade (150/150, on top of the burrow research cost). Zerg armies are generally weaker than the other two races, but they make up for it with guerrilla tactics, and burrow is just a good way to help that. As I said, burrow is one of the defining characteristics of the race, and the cost is very harsh once you've already spent a lot of gas on lair tech and/or the hydralisk den.
I suppose the contradiction of what I just said in the last paragraph would be banelings. They can detonate from below ground. It's devastating to any ground army above them, but they suicide in the process. If you scout a baneling nest, you shouldn't be cought off guard anyways. Also, baneling burrowing only works once. after that, the terran will scan everywhere they go and just target fire them. They're like the defensive lurkers from SC1, except lurkers could be used again afterwards.
|
I agree, I never get burrow anymore and thats just sad for such a race defining feature.
|
On April 25 2010 14:50 ComradeDover wrote:
As a Terran player, having to put up with 150/150 stim or 150/150 ghost cloak or 100/100 reaper speed, I just can't sympathize. Sorry. Just learn to put up with it. It still isn't that expensive.
These are unit-specific upgrades that dramatically increase the effectiveness of an entire army composition, more than doubling their value in a lot of cases. Zerg has comparable upgrades as well, such as hydralisk range, zergling speed, roach speed, roach burrowed movement, etc. I wish we had more even. That's why I compared burrow to warp gates instead of stim, because burrow doesn't add sheer power to an army, rather it adds utility, and it's practically necessary to fully utilize the entire race effectively. Burrow doesn't add much combat effectiveness to an army, only tactical advantage (as long as the player even knows what to actually do with it). The only possible argument to that would be roach burrow healing, but until they get organic carapace, if a roach burrows to regenerate health, they're probably not coming back for the rest of the fight anyways. Besides, that's the roaches entire identity, and it's almost been stripped away entirely, so I'd like to be able to use burrow on all my other units now too.
|
Burrow being moved to lair tech and cost and time being increased was a blessing to a terran player.
Baneling busts still exist, but the threat of baneling mines pretty much confined me to 1 base or 2 base at most~ before I had a raven to move out.
This was similar to terrans in BW where in a TvZ match up, terran going sk terran couldn't move out until his sci vessels came out or the risk of running into stopped lurkers. It was wait until sci vessel or move with scan and that is totally not an option in sc2.
Basically, I am trying to argue the case to leave burrow research as it is. It has the potential to be absolutely ridiculously strong against anyone in establishing a contain. If you lower the tech requirement to hatch, you have the roach burrow micro too early. If you lower time, you still get it out far faster than even a protoss going straight obs, and if you lower cost, then it does not effect your econ nearly enough for it to be a tactical decision to grab the tech. 50/50 is super cheap. 100/100 would be equivalent to a muta or half of a spire and thats a significant investment for a great tech.
|
In my opinion the strongest use to burrow is for flanking/surround/ambushes, not the regen mechanic. 1 concave is good, but 2 is significantly better not to mention it denies retreat!
Ever so sneaky zergs, I really dread meeting them in ladder should they use borrow to its full extent! (Not that they are easy to deal with in any way otherwise)
Either force your opponment to have observers/overseers at multiple locations, or force terran to be ever more defensive/wait for raven(s), or scan his warpath instead of using mules.
|
On April 25 2010 15:00 Thamoo wrote:
I agree, I never get burrow anymore and thats just sad for such a race defining feature.
QFT. Before it was like "Oh, I'm lair I guess its time to get burrow". But now I'd much rather get overlord speed so I can move them around and spread creep, + its 50/50 and a fast build time.
Burrow is just such a hefty investment with little return in most games. However, the times I do get it I'm usually glad I did, its just sad that they basically forced us to get it much later because of the high cost + build time.
|
Burrow is really a pain
So costly for such little gain
A tiny price nerf
Would double its worth
And make burrow useful again!
|
I never got it since the patch, it's too situational and only benefit burrowed banelings really. Blizzard seems to have forgotten they nerfed roach's regen speed. I am 100% in favor!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
