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On April 26 2010 15:44 Spaceninja wrote:
The only time I ever use borrow is for baneling traps. I don't think its the price thats the issue but them limited use of it.
"Limited use"? Well Zerg are complaining about not having many options and this skill gives one to them. You can sneak in a few Roaches and kill the worker if the opponent doesnt bother with detection and this could give you an advantage. Do we see Zerg ever do it? No, because they dont like sneaky stuff and only have a mind for masses of units and big straight up battles. Not every Platinum player gets detection, especially many Terrans. They are relying on scans to skip Ravens and Turrets to get more Marauders out and you can sneak into their base often enough. Protoss rely on their Observers for detection instead of investing in cannons and Observers arent everywhere, so getting into the bases should be doable. No Protoss gets a guarantee that his DTs will kill more than their cost, but they still get them every once in a while. It would be a nice change of pace to see Zerg starting to harrass with something a little more sneaky than an onrushing horde of Speedlings.
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On April 26 2010 20:23 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 15:44 Spaceninja wrote:
The only time I ever use borrow is for baneling traps. I don't think its the price thats the issue but them limited use of it. "Limited use"? Well Zerg are complaining about not having many options and this skill gives one to them. You can sneak in a few Roaches and kill the worker if the opponent doesnt bother with detection and this could give you an advantage. Do we see Zerg ever do it? No, because they dont like sneaky stuff and only have a mind for masses of units and big straight up battles. Not every Platinum player gets detection, especially many Terrans. They are relying on scans to skip Ravens and Turrets to get more Marauders out and you can sneak into their base often enough. Protoss rely on their Observers for detection instead of investing in cannons and Observers arent everywhere, so getting into the bases should be doable. No Protoss gets a guarantee that his DTs will kill more than their cost, but they still get them every once in a while. It would be a nice change of pace to see Zerg starting to harrass with something a little more sneaky than an onrushing horde of Speedlings.
"Sneaking in Roaches" is an all in.. You waste basically 250-200 on the tech and alot of time.
It was tested alot at the start of the beta when roaches were much much stronger and its very easy to counter if your oponent just suspects something. Now that roaches are worse its just logical that its not such a good strat.
Good protoss will go robo bay in 80% of the games and will have an observer anyways observers will run with the army. Good protoss will never be suprised of burrowed roaches if they have an observer.
Good terrans will build at least one rocket tower at the choke once Zerg techs to t2 with roaches out.
Speedling harrase is very cost efficient, roach burrow ai isnt. You have to kill alot of worker and get out alive to make it even money.
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I only get burrow in a couple cases.
For roach vs roach, you'll want burrow.
But is it worth is vs other races?
Make sure your consideration is thorough.
I think it's useful for a scouting ling.
You can monitor when they take their second base.
Or use burrow to block it to be annoying.
That'll put a big grin on your face.
As for roach/infestor burrow move attacks,
It can sometimes outright win you games.
If he knows you have burrow, he can't relax,
Or you'll be kicking ass and taking names.
But is 100 way too expensive?
That's what it costed in Brood War.
It gives you another tool to be offensive,
And I wouldn't want it costing less or more.
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I like how people write this thread off as pointless complaining on the Zerg's part. Yet we have a full running thread on giving SCVs some health back.
I'm not gonna argue on either point here, but I think a large factor such as burrow is much more worthy to talk about balance than some measly 5 HP that people want given to their SCVs. That said I don't really upgrade burrow until mid-late game either. I'll try using it much earlier and see if its economically viable, not sure.
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i see burrow as more of a complimentary upgrade. not a necessity. "it would be nice to have my units able to burrow"
after you spend your gas on midgame: tech buildings, army, hatches running, upgrades... then with excess money (your income should be flowing, cost of burrow shouldn't be a problem anymore) do i get the upgrade.
unless you have a build order/strat that involves direct use of burrow in midgame, you don't need to upgrade it early on (where money/cost is an issue)
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The reason I would like it costing 50/50 like warpgate is to encourage Zerg to use burrow(a race defining feature) earlier into the game. Or perhaps keep it 100 but let it not require lair. Getting burrow when I already have obs everywhere just isn't worth 100
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On April 26 2010 17:19 ComradeDover wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2010 06:57 NicolBolas wrote:
3: Better alternatives to Burrow.
Overlord drops can do much of what burrow can. They can drop units into the middle of the enemy ball. If an army composition is susceptible to Banelings, Overlords are going to be more effective at delivering Banelings on target than burrow is.
Yes, drop costs 250/250. Yes, it endangers the Zerg's food. But it is far more effective, because it is far harder to stop. And it can do far more than burrow.
You can't set Overlord traps, this is true. But burrow traps are simply not a particularly effective use of the ability against most races.
So that's my argument for dropping the cost of burrow. I don't know how I missed this before. I'm sorry, but it looks like here, you're advocating researching an even more expensive ability than burrow, then loading up gas-heavy units into fragile air units and flying them into the middle of marine balls. If this is your argument against burrow, then I'd hate to have you be my attorney in court. Please tell me you're being sarcastic. Nobody can be this stupid.
My point is that Overlord drops are more versatile. You can do most of the stuff you can do with burrow, while still being able to do much more.
And no, I don't advocate loading up on Banelings and flying them into Marines. But that'd be a lot more effective than burrowing those Banelings. Burrowed Banelings only works once; then they get detection and your 100/100 is useless. You can always add some empty Overlords as decoys, to throw the enemy off.
Also, Terrans don't use Marine balls against Zerg, precisely because of Banelings. They tend towards Marauders with a few Marines to deal with air.
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Keeping it at Lair tech and reducing it to 50/50 would provide more incentive to use it without making it too strong. People who are against it overestimate how useful burrow is. It CAN be useful, but requires extra effort and attention for something that isn't guaranteed and may actually hurt your overall play with too much focus. Reducing it to 50/50 would not affect balance noticeably but would provide zergs the incentive to use it more.
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I will start off by saying that I am a gold level Terran player. I have played Zerg probably a couple dozen times in SC2 and fairly extensively in SC1. I have read every comment in this thread so far and would like to offer my opinion.
First off, when discussing any ability or any unit or any mechanic in the game it is vitally important that you consider the effects which will ripple throughout the game. Burrow is a game changing mechanic. Once a Zerg player brings Burrow to the table, their opponent is forced to spend resources to counter it. (You should also note that using the argument "I shouldn't do X because they can just counter it with Y" reveals an extreme narrow-mindedness, as "Why build an army at all when they can just counter it with their army" becomes a valid argument). Even if you never use Burrow extensively in combat, simply revealing it to your opponent will result in a noticeable change in their resource allocation.
Secondly, if players are not using Burrow extensively right now (and let's face it, they aren't) then give it time, some creative player will make a name for themselves using it eventually. I will admit that this is speculation and may never come true but that doesn't mean a mechanic should be overhauled or have its price altered.
Thirdly, regarding the mechanic as a whole, there are a myriad of uses for the ability which many players simply do not incorporate into their style of play. If you "force" it into your build order then you will eventually come up with new uses for it and you will be that much better of a player for it even if you decide to discontinue using it post-experiment.
Lastly, if the 100/100 cost of Burrow is so extremely pricey that you find it impossible to afford because you would lose the game by not getting out that additional Mutalisk or what have you (and not because you simply made the conscious decision to not research it) then the problem lies not with the mechanic, but with the race as a whole.
As a student in Game Development there is much more I would like to say on the matter but I do not have time (nor do I expect you to have the time to read it all) to write it all out here.
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burrow is pretty much useless atm :\
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On April 27 2010 05:03 NicolBolas wrote:
My point is that Overlord drops are more versatile. You can do most of the stuff you can do with burrow, while still being able to do much more.
I suppose it's possible to lose 8 banelings at once with an overlord drop. It's really tough to do that with burrow, so I guess you have a point.
On April 27 2010 05:03 NicolBolas wrote:
And no, I don't advocate loading up on Banelings and flying them into Marines. But that'd be a lot more effective than burrowing those Banelings. Burrowed Banelings only works once; then they get detection and your 100/100 is useless. You can always add some empty Overlords as decoys, to throw the enemy off.
Burrowed banelings may work once, but flying overlords into globs of marines works never.
And if you have the cash to buy overlords and suicide them en masse into the enemy army in hopes that they don't shoot down the one with stuff in it, you're not allowed not allowed to complain about the cost. Of anything. Ever. Especially not something that's a one-time investment equal in mineral costs to one of those overlords you're so loose with.
On April 27 2010 05:03 NicolBolas wrote:
Also, Terrans don't use Marine balls against Zerg, precisely because of Banelings. They tend towards Marauders with a few Marines to deal with air.
lol.
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EPT
