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On April 25 2010 18:35 Thamoo wrote:
I was merely pointing out that anecdotal data such as 5 random persons dosn't constitute a good basis to draw conclusions from.
Then you'll admit that anecdotal data such as "I've seen, like, A MILLION REPLAYS and I've only seen burrow, like, twice" doesn't constitute a good basis to draw conclusions from either.
On April 25 2010 18:35 Thamoo wrote:
By reducing the cost we encourage people to try it. In return we have the data to ether nerf it back to 100/100 if we do find a way to abuse it or to keep it at 50/50 and add more flavor/dept to the game. Win/Win scenario with no drawback whatsoever!
Horrible argument. It would be like me saying "By reducing the cost of Thors to something like 75/25, we encourage people to try it. In return we have the data to either nerf them back to their original price or keep them at 75/25 to add more flavor to the game! Win/Win scenario!".
If it isn't broken, don't fuck with it. The worst possible motive to make changes to an already reasonably balanced and fun game is just to encourage trying something else for no other reason whatsoever. You might say that your anecdotal replay-watching suggests that it is broken because it isn't being used as much as you would like, but we already agreed that's no basis to draw any sort of conclusion from.
On April 25 2010 18:35 Thamoo wrote:
Please remimber that as far as overall balance is concerned its really not that big of a deal, its still only a 50/50 ressources differance if you do choose to get it. The whole point is to get the mechanic working for flavor/gameplay issues.
If it's not a big deal, why does it need to be changed? Zergs are equally capable of researching burrow at 100/100 as they are at 50/50. Those 50 minerals and gas aren't game breaking. The mechanic works fine for flavor issues -- it doesn't ever need to actually be used for it to work for flavor issues.
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On April 25 2010 18:41 ComradeDover wrote:
Then you'll admit that anecdotal data such as "I've seen, like, A MILLION REPLAYS and I've only seen burrow, like, twice" doesn't constitute a good basis to draw conclusions from either.
I agree. And if I'm wrong and burrow is indeed used in high level games then I rest my case. But if its not currently being used (and I think thats currently the case) theres nothing wrong with buffing it slightly to encourage it.
Your thor argument is flawed, as reducing the burrow's cost to 50/50 is reasonable, reducing thor to 75/25 isn't.
And again the whole point is encouraging people to try stuff with it. Because right now almost nobody uses it and thats a shame for such a well designed and flavorful ability.
On April 25 2010 18:41 ComradeDover wrote:it doesn't ever need to actually be used for it to work for flavor issues.
You'll have to explain this one.
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you're right, it should be readjusted.
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On April 25 2010 15:27 Frozz wrote:
Burrow is really a pain
So costly for such little gain
A tiny price nerf
Would double its worth
And make burrow useful again!
hahaha I can't get enough of you. Love these.
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On April 25 2010 14:50 ComradeDover wrote:
As a Terran player, having to put up with 150/150 stim or 150/150 ghost cloak or 100/100 reaper speed, I just can't sympathize. Sorry. Just learn to put up with it. It still isn't that expensive.
Agreed, and think of the counters.
If its a 50/50 upgrade for the zerg, terran has to either: waste a shitton of scans / turret everywhere / make the lovely 100/200 raven.
Seems a bit cheap for such a "hard" thing to counter, esp since roaches are invisible, not even DT invisible but you cant see them at all, so you basically have to have detection everywhere, and terran detection isnt so easy
Easier for toss that have their invisible little observers, but still.
50/50 is a bit cheap for the utility
edit: i remember pre patch, roaches in my main, roaches at my expos, roaches behind my army :S no fun 
at least make them somewhat visible, so you can see where they move if you look hard enough
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On April 25 2010 18:41 ComradeDover wrote:
If it isn't broken, don't fuck with it.
It wasn't broken before, and they fucked with it anyways. Roaches were broken, and they responded in the wrong way.
On April 25 2010 19:04 Snowfield wrote:edit: i remember pre patch, roaches in my main, roaches at my expos, roaches behind my army :S no fun
As I said, this isn't that much of an issue now that roaches are so significantly weaker, and the 100 seconds delays it also. The only thing you have to do to defend it is add one missile turret to your choke wall.
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On April 25 2010 14:27 Floophead_III wrote:
The cost is fine. Quit complaining about things which don't affect the game at all.
burrow is zerg's only means for stealth, how does that not effect the game at all?
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Hi,
I'm not sure the reason why burrow isn't researched much is it's price.
I believe, and I may be wrong, that burrow isn't researched because you have other things to do when it becomes available to research.
By the time burrow becomes available you will mostly have to upgrade your overlord speed as your overlords are getting hunted in some way. You may also have to spawn another queen because you just have been attacked...
I think the main reason is that you have better things to do than to search for burrow and I was just talking about things you can research at lair, but you may want to use your gaz in armour or range or anything too.
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I just gonna say one thing:
Burrowed Banelings. Oh Yeah. Makes up for the cost alone. Could be a bit faster, but that's just my impatience
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I really don't understand why zerg say burrow is too expensive.
1. It is usefull for all zerg ground units.
2. Better regen while burrowed.
3. Unburrowing melee units below the feet of ranged units (read: all terran ground units) should save them lots of hp due to not being shot at while engaging from a distance.
4. Delaying expos with burrowed lings.
5. Burrowed lings are cheap scouts.
6. If your army meets a superior army without detection, burrow und reinforce it while opponent has to send detection (ok, this is pretty situational)
7. Someone wrote terrans would just scan all over the place - what do you prefer them doing with energy, using it for mules and having faster income or scanning all over the the place in case zerg might have burrowed something?
I think this could develop into a nice mind game
8. You force your zerg / toss opponent into building detectors (which cost mins and gas) as soon as you hit tier2
To me it seems like burrow is pretty useful and should be tested some more.
Maybe just the availability at lair tech is bad, since zerg have so much options at this point.
But making this update tier 1 would mean absolute mapcontrol for zerg since toss cant have obs that fast and terrans cant afford to constantly scan that early.
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Hmmm yeah - I wonder perhaps if it's more an issue to do with which units zerg has which are actually useful for burrowing. Banelings certainly makes sense. Lurkers have been scrapped, but they never needed the upgrade in the first place. I'm sure that blizzard will balance this one out, but actually part of me thinks it's ok to have things in the game which are only ever rarely used - it makes it all the more exciting in those exceptional cases when they are utilised effectively! Ala nuke's in sc1...
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On April 25 2010 19:34 dynamite wrote:
I just gonna say one thing:
Burrowed Banelings. Oh Yeah. Makes up for the cost alone.
Or does it...?
Think of a burrowed baneling as a really shitty spider mine. After you research spider mines for 100/100, it only costs 75 minerals for 3 of them PLUS a fast scout/harassment unit. Banelings cost 50/25 each, and once you blow up a terran army the first time, they'll scan everywhere they go before they get a raven... it's a one-time gimmicky trick, and 100/100 is definitely too much to pay for it.
Even compared to lurkers, the units they were supposed to replace, banelings are pretty terrible. First of all, the suicide-attack makes it an extremely short-term investment, and even if a lurker is detected, it can still attack. If the baneling gets detected, that's 50/25 that the Terran is essentially stealing from you.
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because you dont use it doesnt mean its bad watch korean vods they rush to burrow vs terran quiet often its very powerfull (one of the reason it was nerfed).and deservs its price.
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To be fair I think burrow at 100/100 is fine if you're going very heavy roaches for the "healing" after a battle, or if you intend to use it for banneling traps.
The problem is those two are very specific ; I feel that burrow should be something more, for flavor and gameplay issues, than just a gimmick you use once in a blue moon.
Talking about balance is irrelevent, as in the end it comes down to a 50/50 mineral/gaz deficit only, which barely affects balance at all.
cernunnos : The price is the main reason people aren't getting it because generally zerg is on 2 bases when he gets lair, so its easy to get any lair tech you want while getting your 2 queens. Your argument would be valid for a 1 base zerg tho.
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On April 25 2010 14:20 MoNoNauT wrote:
Originally, Burrow cost 50/50 and 50 seconds to research. Zerg were abusing the low-cost Roaches by double-gassing and teching straight to Lair, after which the burrow upgrade is practically negligible. Since Roaches get more utility out of burrowing than any other unit, Blizzard's approach feels like they completely neglect the fact that ALL zerg ground units can burrow.
I feel like Burrow is one of the strongest defining characteristics of the race, and strategic use of burrow should be strongly encouraged. In a similar fashion, Warp Gate tech is critical for any Protoss that uses gateways (ie, all of them). However, when proxy warpgate rushes were deemed to be too effective, they almost tripled the research time... but left the cost the same. Warp gate research costs 50/50, which is practically negligible. It comes from a structure that costs 150 minerals and no gas. Burrow costs 100/100 and the tech costs 150/100, which is significantly more expensive. Maybe I'm just wrong for even comparing these two mechanics in the first place, but I feel that they have a comparable effect on overall race effectiveness even if they are completely different.
I think reducing the 50/50 resource cost of Burrow while keeping at 100 seconds would be better balanced than it is now, since the original problem of imba-roaches no longer applies. With the cost as it is now, I'm much less inclined to get the upgrade at all in most games, regardless of how much I want it all the time.
Please discuss your thoughts on the subject.
So you are saying that you would never spend the 150/100 to upgrade any Hatchery to a Lair if you didnt want to research burrow? Adding in that cost to that of burrow is ridiculous and an upgrade which works for most of your units is dirt cheap at 100/100.
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On April 25 2010 14:50 ComradeDover wrote:
As a Terran player, having to put up with 150/150 stim or 150/150 ghost cloak or 100/100 reaper speed, I just can't sympathize. Sorry. Just learn to put up with it. It still isn't that expensive.
You also forgot about the Marine Shield upgrade, that's even more money.
I think 100/100 is OK for burrow, if anything then Terran needs cheaper upgrades. I mean...c'mon - it's like almost 500/500 to get all the upgrades from the Tech Lab. Im not saying it's imba, just that it's alot of money for upgrades.
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On April 25 2010 20:22 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 14:20 MoNoNauT wrote:
Originally, Burrow cost 50/50 and 50 seconds to research. Zerg were abusing the low-cost Roaches by double-gassing and teching straight to Lair, after which the burrow upgrade is practically negligible. Since Roaches get more utility out of burrowing than any other unit, Blizzard's approach feels like they completely neglect the fact that ALL zerg ground units can burrow.
I feel like Burrow is one of the strongest defining characteristics of the race, and strategic use of burrow should be strongly encouraged. In a similar fashion, Warp Gate tech is critical for any Protoss that uses gateways (ie, all of them). However, when proxy warpgate rushes were deemed to be too effective, they almost tripled the research time... but left the cost the same. Warp gate research costs 50/50, which is practically negligible. It comes from a structure that costs 150 minerals and no gas. Burrow costs 100/100 and the tech costs 150/100, which is significantly more expensive. Maybe I'm just wrong for even comparing these two mechanics in the first place, but I feel that they have a comparable effect on overall race effectiveness even if they are completely different.
I think reducing the 50/50 resource cost of Burrow while keeping at 100 seconds would be better balanced than it is now, since the original problem of imba-roaches no longer applies. With the cost as it is now, I'm much less inclined to get the upgrade at all in most games, regardless of how much I want it all the time.
Please discuss your thoughts on the subject. So you are saying that you would never spend the 150/100 to upgrade any Hatchery to a Lair if you didnt want to research burrow? Adding in that cost to that of burrow is ridiculous and an upgrade which works for most of your units is dirt cheap at 100/100.
I'm not saying that at all, what I'm saying is that after you've spent 100 gas on the lair and then 100 gas on burrow, you're not left with enough gas to build an army and continue teching. Going back to the warp gate comparison, every protoss player is going to get a cyber core, which is 150 minerals... after which, the warp gate upgrade is only 50 gas, leaving them plenty to warp units in with.
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Yeah the nerfed it in the beginning of the beta because roache regeneration was so imba.
They should have nerf the roach burrow like it's now and not all units burrow.
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Agree with the OP. Would be cool to see more burrow traps. =)
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On April 25 2010 20:32 KinosJourney2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 14:50 ComradeDover wrote:
As a Terran player, having to put up with 150/150 stim or 150/150 ghost cloak or 100/100 reaper speed, I just can't sympathize. Sorry. Just learn to put up with it. It still isn't that expensive. You also forgot about the Marine Shield upgrade, that's even more money. I think 100/100 is OK for burrow, if anything then Terran needs cheaper upgrades. I mean...c'mon - it's like almost 500/500 to get all the upgrades from the Tech Lab. Im not saying it's imba, just that it's alot of money for upgrades.
These upgrades all significantly add to your units' combat effectiveness. Burrow doesn't really help in a fight, except for roaches. With the regeneration nerf, it hardly matters anyways because a roach that burrows during a battle isn't coming back before the end. Burrow doesn't help the zerg in the same way any of these upgrades help the Terran player... it just adds utility and makes zerg play more strategic than "mass n' go."
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EPT
