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Chrono Trigger Mafia - Page 73

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strongandbig
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4858 Posts
November 22 2012 18:35 GMT
#1441
holy shit

this thread


Anyone interested in a late switch to Marv? I've got a pretty strong town read on him right now, and I can't say that I like Syllo's election platform.

marv if you were magically blasted into being a serious candidate would you tell people your picks so they can evaluate whether they agree with your reads or would you do a syllo and keep them secret?

I'm also a little T_T that no one has talked any more about platforms/ideas for "party composition themes" like Sandro had, I do think having been in a successful party is a statistical indicator of townieness and the idea of spreading that out makes sense.

That said, I'm not voting for Sandroba until he actually takes Syllo's case a little bit more seriously - seems like it's a reason people are dropping off his campaign wagon but he really has barely even mentioned it. there's some pretty srs reasoning there.
"It's the torso" "only more so!"
strongandbig
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4858 Posts
November 22 2012 18:37 GMT
#1442
im going to completely ignore drazerk. im trying something new out since nothing else seems to have worked in the past.

i had a dream last night where i found out that cavejohnson was actually a smurf run by a friend of mine from college (who doesn't play mafia at all) and then I felt terrible for accusing him of being drazerk.

True story
"It's the torso" "only more so!"
Djodref
Profile Joined September 2012
France3332 Posts
November 22 2012 18:37 GMT
#1443


Clarity has just made a case against Sandroba




+ Show Spoiler [Clarity case against Sandro] +

On November 23 2012 03:09 Clarity_nl wrote:
Sandroba. Why are people voting for this guy?

Show nested quote +
On November 22 2012 11:08 sandroba wrote:
@kita I was under that impression because your filter is rather short and I fail to find anything in there that provides your reads or opinions on subjects being discussed. When you came back you posted a generic post with several names in red including mine and no reasoning and still never commented on anything.


Let us work our way backwards in his filter, starting from this post, where he advocates against electing Kita because Kita has not provided his reads or opinions on subjects being discussed.

Show nested quote +
On November 22 2012 10:10 sandroba wrote:
On November 22 2012 04:05 syllogism wrote:
Sandroba: when you are back, I would like to know if you have reconsidered Dienosore at all based on new content, in addition to explaining what about clarity_nl's play you find suspect. Some kind of mafia reads would also be helpful. Also any thoughts regarding the current candidate situation?

I had clarity as scum, but I'm kinda torn on it right now after the marv/clarity exchange. I took a look at mario and it does look similar. Earlier he was pouncing with one-liners on weak stuff people posted and that tipped me off. And about Die, yeah I still think he is town. What makes you dissagree?


The first mention of any kind of read he has (remember, we're working backwards), it's on me, he found me scum but now he doesn't know. Null.
Why did he used to find me scum? Not sure, the only other mention of me is the reason he had to make the above post, that mention being this:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 22:25 sandroba wrote:
I wont take clarity with me if I get elected. He smells funny.


So we never got to know why I was scum to him, but that's okay because he's no longer sure, right? I don't think so.
To me this seems like jumping on the (at the time) easy "lynch" I'd make. But then backing off because it was hard to pin me on something.

Next up, we have this:
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 22:50 sandroba wrote:
I wouldn't mind syllo being leader either and if I win I will give him veto power over the people I choose. I'm fairly certain he is town at this point.


I'm fairly certain he's town, is his entire read. Only when asked does he explain why.
Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 22:55 sandroba wrote:
On November 21 2012 22:51 marvellosity wrote:
On November 21 2012 22:50 sandroba wrote:
I wouldn't mind syllo being leader either and if I win I will give him veto power over the people I choose. I'm fairly certain he is town at this point.


what distinguishes a town syllo from a scum syllo in your opinion?

He is way less conflict enticing / questions asking as scum and just chillax and agrees with people that are the right track. This game he says he will be lazy, but isn't and is activily doing shit left and right. So yeah.


This boils down to a meta read. If you take away the meta, all that is left is him saying: "He said he'd be lazy but he isn't"
Meta reads aren't always bad, of course, but it should never be the crux of your argument unless someone is WAY off their town meta.

Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 18:26 sandroba wrote:
On November 21 2012 18:13 Keirathi wrote:
Syllogism/sandroba:

You guys have ignored us, but what do you think of Toads reasoning for me being scum? Do you think I'm scum?

What about Deinos 2 scum reads and 2 town reads? Agree or disagree with any of them?

I wouldn't put you as a town read, but I don't agree with toads case on you. I'll say nothing point to me one way or another so far. About deinos I agree on oats as I've said before. Not quite sure on acro still, I'd put him the same as you. GK and djo I'm slightly leaning town so far.


"I don't know, you're null. Here's a list of slight townreads with no explanation."
Moving further back.

Show nested quote +
On November 21 2012 17:52 sandroba wrote:
come'on look at the way he entered the thread. that's like as townie as it gets =P
either way you have your share bit of work to do to =P. I guess I'll know by day 2?


His very first strong read, yet somehow it is much earlier in the thread than the stuff covered above. This post is referring to Dieno.
There's not much reasoning to it, the only being that scum wouldn't enter into the game like that.
I think this is fair and not alignment indicative, but since we're pointing out all the reads I think it's only fair to point out his only strong read thus far.

This is also where the reads end, because we are in the early earlygame at this point. There is some setup speculation, which makes sense given we're in a heavily themed game.

My point to all of this, is this:
Sand has not had any strong reads, and the reads he has had have had bad or no reasoning.
He's is currently trying to get elected, and has had some backing.
Why are people not demanding stronger reads from him? Especially when he is demanding them from others?

Why is sand not working harder at making reads, when he is running for the election?

Wanting to get elected is not alignment indicative. His reads or logic isn't alignment indicative. Why does he not look/try to look townie when he is running for the election?

In my eyes, this makes him badly played scum or a third party role because a townie who is running for election would be trying harder to get elected, or at the very least to get strong reads out there.

Here is what I immediately think
  • Clarity isclearly involded in this game, and have just shown some scum hunting. It's a town tell for me
  • Clarity is not in the scumteam or there is no one is the scumteam to prevent him from doing this folly, and this point is valid regardless sandroba alignment. My experience as newbie scum in the Looney game was that HiroPro and Original Name were already discussing when to kill sandroba in the first page of the scumQT. So I thought it was going to be safer for me not to interact with this guy.


I also thought at the possibility that Clarity and Sandro could be both in the scumteam, but I don't find this likely because I don't have a scumread on any of them yet.

This, added to the fact that Clarity as behaved as its town self, makes me think that he is town. The town motivation is clear here, he has to cast suspicion upon the player who he thinks is scum and might win the election.

Feedback is welcomed


Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
November 22 2012 18:38 GMT
#1444
Fuck it, I'm running for party leader. After sitting down and looking at Syllo and Sandrob, I'm just not very happy with how things are going. They were two players who pushed to be leaders early on, then we as a town today really sheeped on to them as opposed to truly thinking things through. I'm guilty of that myself.

Even if I don't convince you to vote for me, I hope whoever is running considers some of the town-candidates I put forth in this post.



Why I oppose Syllogism

On November 23 2012 00:18 syllogism wrote:
I can't explain it better than I have. It doesn't feel like he cares about figuring things out and there is no sense of urgency despite him being one of the most likely people to be elected. He has made no attempts at figuring out who mafia is and it seems to me he is hiding behind the fact he doesn't have to. There is being lazy and then there is just not caring. My other reasons rely on my knowledge of how he thinks and some of the things he has said feel off; can't elaborate more on that.

Yes, I might gain more votes by making my reads public. I would also gain more reads by pretending to be completely confident in my reads; I'm not. I have not finalized my team yet (right now I've 2 whom I'm likely to take and a few possibilities for the third) and may not finalize it until the end. An honest assessment as to why I'm not going to is a combination of considering it optimal play (if I get the votes), being lazy and because sometimes my town reads rely on things other players may find flimsy or the reasons are otherwise difficult to explain (tone, whether the person feels earnest).

If I were mafia, there would be absolutely no reason not to make the list of people I intend to pick public.


I really object to the rationale in this post after thinking it over. Syllogism pitches non-disclosure of his team as "optimal play" which is garbage logic. We, as a town, gain so much less information from the voting process if we all sheep onto Syllo. He's suggesting that disclosing his reads would somehow be "less-optimal", and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

In addition, as mafia, he would have plenty of incentive not to disclose his "list" - mafia don't want to provide analysis if they don't have to. Syllo's entire platform is "trust me," and I'm not willing to put D1 in the hands of such a player.



Why oppose Sandrob

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922&currentpage=71#1413
I agree with a lot of what nl_Clarity said in this post.

Sandrob campaigned really early and earnestly for his position, and then has all but disappeared from the thread. Sandrob hasn't contributed anything resembling a read, and this is not someone I want to be party leader D1.



Why I oppose Kita

Absolute joke campaign.



My Proposed Party:

nl_clarity
Clarity has been one of the most engaged players in the game so far. He seems to truly care about what is happening and has the activity/content to back it up. This is the opposite of his scum-play in Newbie XXX (where he was far more distant in the early day), and I consider him strongly town.

GoodKarma
I really like the content he's posted so far, and I think it's far enough of a departure from what I've seen him to as scum to trust him. As scum he tries to blend in a lot more (Mafia LVII, Newbie XXIII), and him campaigning for party leader is the polar opposite of this.

Dienosore
He seemed to have claimed here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922&currentpage=51#1017

I have no reason to disbelieve him at this point, and he would need to have coconut-sized balls as a hypothetical scum playing his first game.

Others I have considered
Keirathi - I still consider him town, but I have stronger reads on the above three players
iamperfection - someone who seems to be town based on my meta read on him. However, I ultimately decided against this since I feel he's capable of faking his meta in the early days. What's more telling about his allignment is if he can keep up his antics.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Dienosore
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Brunei Darussalam622 Posts
November 22 2012 18:39 GMT
#1445
@keir/marv/clarity: thanks for the headsup about english not being his first language. it definitely changes my view on some things

also, thanks for giving me another relationship line I can draw between the three of you for coming to his defense ^^

Ok, it is Thanksgiving after all. I think im going to take a mafia break and eat some turkey with the family. See you all later!
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17956 Posts
November 22 2012 18:42 GMT
#1446
On November 23 2012 03:16 CaveJohnson wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2012 03:14 syllogism wrote:
I confirmed that nothing in the OP is a lie, including this line

"Each character in the game is assigned a hidden number value"

Drazerk, or whoever you are, if you are somehow town I'm pretty certain that I'm never joining a game with you again.



You are not taking me on missions without me killing you. If I lie I'll lie hopefully we'll catch people from it but apparently you don't understand baits.

I fucking knew it. I wish I was a vig
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17956 Posts
November 22 2012 18:42 GMT
#1447
Eh, wrong post to quote. Meant to quote his first claim. Still. Drazerk will be Drazerk and the post displays it pretty clearly.
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36160 Posts
November 22 2012 18:43 GMT
#1448
no thanks, s&b.

Hapa, I don't really care for why you oppose people, but I have no idea whether you are town or scum or not, so I could not vote you.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
November 22 2012 18:44 GMT
#1449
I'd rather vote Drazerk than Marv lol.

But yeah I agree about the part with Syllo and Sandroba. I liked the way Syllo interacted with Sandro from the get go and unlike Kita I wouldn't say it was a sudden change of mind at all. A lot of his posts or question had some sort of disbelieve involved and I wondered if Syllos was going to just keep it that way or if he's going to really call him out on things he mentioned.
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
Keirathi
Profile Joined May 2012
United States4679 Posts
November 22 2012 18:46 GMT
#1450
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea.
My dear friend if I have gone pants on head, you have gone socks on ears!!! -ShiaoPi
Djodref
Profile Joined September 2012
France3332 Posts
November 22 2012 18:46 GMT
#1451
On November 23 2012 03:20 Dienosore wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2012 03:05 Djodref wrote:
On November 23 2012 02:58 Dienosore wrote:
If CaveJohnson is telling the truth (and it feels like he is), then I'm going to have to reevaluate my relationship map. He was catching a lot of flak from a lot of people, so now I'm going to reverse the pipes and see what comes up.

It's no surprise he doesn't like marv, but I didn't predict him having any opinion on Djo. My only link between Cave and Djo was a stretch that included a pitstop through possible scum Acro and Kitaman.


@ Dienosore

You have a scumread on me but you are not giving your proper reasoning for this read. I cannot allow this because I'm town and I would like to be able to really discuss your read on me with so I can prove you that you are wrong.
Please tell me what you find in my behavior that convinces you that I am mafia.


Well, how about this...

For starters, I find the general stuffyness and use of proper language relative to your earlier posts as an indication of something. What this something is, I do not know for sure. But then when I look at your overall message, it is about clearing your name. This is where I connect the dots and assume you have something to hide about your claim on being towny. What else is there to hide other than being scum or third party. Also, it looks like you edited this post halfway through, "really discuss your read on me with so I" which sets off another flag that you have more you want to say but are trying to control yourself.

I mean, I guess there is a small chance you are telling the truth and I'm just reading too deep into one post... but I've been getting these reads off of you since the game started and they are starting to stack up.


@ Dienosore

I don't know your nationality nor your mother tongue but the "indication of something" you are talking about should be that I'm French and that English is not my native language. Moreover, I tend to forget words in my sentences and to show a tendency to dyslexia when I'm tired, which is usually the case because I have to play at night to actually interact with people. For example, in the latest case you are talking of, I wanted to say "really discuss your read on me with you".
By the way, I want you to show what in my behavior makes you think that I am mafia.
It might look like I'm trying to control myself because I want to be clear and I have to put some effort into it because of the language barrier and the different thinking process I have being French and from another culture bla bla bla...
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
November 22 2012 18:47 GMT
#1452
On November 23 2012 03:43 marvellosity wrote:
no thanks, s&b.

Hapa, I don't really care for why you oppose people, but I have no idea whether you are town or scum or not, so I could not vote you.


So who exactly are you supporting at this point? I don't pretend to be easy to read or "obvious town" at this point due to my relative inactivity this game. However, I do firmly believe I'm a better candidate than the others, and my post should show that I care and am thinking about the situation at hand.

And even if you don't want to vote for me, I want to hear some opinions on my proposed party//reads.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
TheChronicler
Profile Joined October 2012
Macedonia260 Posts
November 22 2012 18:50 GMT
#1453
I don't think we should be going for a swap with 4 hours left. I'm happy with my vote on syllo.
Let me tell you of the days of high adventure!
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
November 22 2012 18:51 GMT
#1454
On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea.


Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player.

It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting.

This is fucking retarded.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17956 Posts
November 22 2012 18:54 GMT
#1455
Kita, you still comfortable with Promethelax?
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17956 Posts
November 22 2012 18:56 GMT
#1456
On November 23 2012 03:51 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea.


Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player.

It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting.

This is fucking retarded.

We still know the party, we just don't know his reason for picking them. If you mean that we are voting for 1 person, rather than 4, it has its advantages and disadvantages. Less easily manipulated by scum (assuming the chooser isn't actually scum himself), but gives less of a basis to vote on.

Do you think Syllo is not town?
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17956 Posts
November 22 2012 19:02 GMT
#1457
BioSC: are you playing this game, or you trying to get vig shot for lurking again?

Hopeless1der: where are you? You have lots of posts in your filter, but they are all 1-liners. I have NO clue what you're thinking about anything actually pertinent to this game. You have corrected people's logic and asked some questions. That seems to be about it. I can't even find your vote or ANY indication of who you might vote for. Last time you lurked you were obvious scum. You taking the same approach?
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
November 22 2012 19:02 GMT
#1458
On November 23 2012 03:56 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2012 03:51 Hapahauli wrote:
On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea.


Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player.

It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting.

This is fucking retarded.

We still know the party, we just don't know his reason for picking them. If you mean that we are voting for 1 person, rather than 4, it has its advantages and disadvantages. Less easily manipulated by scum (assuming the chooser isn't actually scum himself), but gives less of a basis to vote on.

Do you think Syllo is not town?


I have no idea and that's the problem. Syllo hasn't done anything. He hasn't provided reads, and his only major contribution has been his "trust me I'll do everything" campaign. The only person who I've seen give something resembling a "read" on Syllo is Sandrob, who discussed in vague terms how he thought Syllo was town based on skype convos or something.

That's an absurd reason to trust someone at this point in the game. Honestly, I'd insta-lynch someone for doing what Syllo's doing in any other game, but the circumstances in this set-up are quite unique and make me lean more null to him.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hopeless1der
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5836 Posts
November 22 2012 19:03 GMT
#1459
On November 23 2012 03:51 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2012 03:46 Keirathi wrote:
Hapa, I already explained why a candidate keeping his party hidden was a good idea.


Yeah I saw that Kei, and I think it's really really stupid. Being scared of a possible D1 mafia manipulation isn't a good reason to sheep blindly on a player.

It's like wanting to no-lynch on D1 in a normal game because there's a supposed "low chance of hitting scum." You lynch D1 anyway because of the amount of information we gain from the votecounts. Syllo is proposing an "optimal" strategy that completely neuters the amount of information we'll gain from the voting.

This is fucking retarded.

I disagree that it completely neuters the information, and I'm moving my vote to syllo.

This is completely different from a no-lynch, as you must be aware. We get to know his party. If his party fails, he will explain his reads. If they succeed, then blind faith successful, town wins the event. I respect that you want his reads upfront and feel it would make for a more informed choice of elected leader, but it is Day 1 after all, and while I think you are town Hapa, I like the plan that syllo and djo have put forth about withholding information from the scumteam to prevent harm to our possible success.

It is my opinion that this game is more heavily geared towards winning the theme than winning the mafia game, and that means succeeding at events. I think syllo is just as capable as you at picking townreads, and just as likely to be town as you are. This means that from a party leader perspective, syllo provides a better chance at succeeding in the event than you currently do.

##Unvote: sandroba
##Vote: syllogism

Djodref
Profile Joined September 2012
France3332 Posts
November 22 2012 19:03 GMT
#1460
@ Hapa

I like your ticket but I do like syllo approach better. I came up with a similar line of reasoning when I proposed myself as a party leader earlier and I believe that it is going to disturb the mafia more than the town. The fact that this idea is going to bring in less votes in his favor while proposing himself as a party leader might be ambivalent at first sight but I see this a town trait.

A mafia player running for election main goal is to be elected and get town credit. He can propose to bring along three consensual players and get easily elected on his ticket. He might even choose only town player to "clean" himself after a successful event.
A town player running for election main goal is for the event to success. With syllo's plan, we can get information after the resolution of the event and hide relevant information to the mafia today. I think syllo strategy is sound.

On a side note, I didn't have to much difficulties to find town reads today which I'm confident in. It's syllo, Clarity, GK and Oats. I think that Dieno is town as well. I have some other players which I'm leaning town on but I'm not so confident.
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