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I loved fruitdealer's play in GSL 1. From what I remember, he'd get the spire out like most zerg players do and pump out 5-8 mutas. He'd do some light harass with them, allowing himself to expand, but then he'd stop that as he'd transition into infestor/baneling. At that point he could:
- defend 2 drops at once using mutas in one place and infestors at another
- fungal the army to delay buying himself more time
- fungal the army to enable his banelings to charge in
- rebuild with MASS ULTRAS. I suppose you might get to hive faster when you focus on getting infestors faster
I think the difficulty with this strategy is the challenge in only using a few mutas to control the map and intercepting drops. Much easier with a massive ball of mutas.
I really like burrowed infestors + infested terrans against large tank lines. With a large amount of tanks sieged up, throwing eggs into his army will result in a lot of friendly splash damage. If he unsieges, you can fungal him in unsieged mode. Getting ravens or turrets will slow down his push. All of this can buy you time to get to brood lords.
I also remember Ret in one of Mr. Bitter's vods mentioned something about a late game gas heavy composition involving mass infestors/brood lord/ corruptor. Basically, the infested terrans provide a disposable support army for the brood lords. Has anyone seen this in action?
PS - you can also use NP to BM your opponent by mind controlling his weak/sucky units.
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I'm kind of shocked to see that master league zerg players are claiming they never use Infestors. I'm a 2.8k + diamond zerg player, and although my mid/late game needs improvement, I feel like infestors are an absolute must due to fungal growth and infested terrans are also useful.
This is why:
1. Fungal growth immobilzes your opponent and makes it easier for you to get a surround.
2. Placing the infestors at strategic location, such near ramps will allow you to split his main force when entering your base.
3. While fungal growth won't nullify medivacs they will keep them busy.
4. Infested terrans thrown near tanks is a great way to get rid of them.
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i would rather have the gas on more mutas zvt, but infestors are very useful in zvz and zvp in certain situations
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I use them a lot in zvz on maps where engagements are likely to happen in chokes and narrow areas. Otherwise its usually better to max out on roach and reinforce as you will be way ahead in numbers.
I love the unit but i think they are a bit fragile and would love to see NP upgrade removed and mana required for NP reduced, increased duration or some other tweak
They are too easily picked off as they get outranged :\
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Easy to mismicro them and have several Infestors die right off the bat because they need your army to be all the way across the map so the units aren't in the way, and there's no health pool to make up for that. Plus, with Fungal Growth's effective range being 7, you're basically setting yourself up to be in range of basically all Terran and Protoss units.
Simply put, they're a big investment that's hard to use and easy to lose.
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I love to use infestors, I just never feel like I'm able to until the lategame. If you prioritize infestors over multilisks a few things happen.
You don't contain the Terran. They can expand more freely
You aren't harassing the Terran. They can concentrate on macro and their own forms of harassment.
You are no longer 'drop proof'. Yes you can fungal + infested terran on a medivac but that costs a lot of energy, and leaves you with little energy if a push comes. Overlord coverage + a muta ball means instant death for most all drops.
It's very vulnerable to the Terran's strong ground army(marauders/tanks/marines/hellions). Since infestors are a high target priority, they are killed first by tanks and It's very hard to beat back a slow siege push with them. Mutas allow you to pick off reinforcements and tanks if there are not enough marines around to support them. When you push in to engage, all you have to do is kill the marines and let your mutas clean up the rest. With Infestor play you'll typically lose more $ worth of units in the engagement since you can only beat back the tanks with your ground forces and you are taking damage the whole time.
All that being said, Infestors can still be a great unit, but that doesn't come until you have at least 3+ bases worth of gas and after mutalisks.
Infestor/muta/ling/bane can also be quite troublesome to micro. get a fungal, send in lings, then banes, magic box the mutas in, send infestors back in for more fungals, re-control the banes so they don't just a-move into tanks. Prob not as hard as a MKP marine split  but it's prob the most difficult micro engagement that a zerg has.
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On February 01 2011 17:20 Tropical Bob wrote:
Easy to mismicro them and have several Infestors die right off the bat because they need your army to be all the way across the map so the units aren't in the way, and there's no health pool to make up for that. Plus, with Fungal Growth's effective range being 7, you're basically setting yourself up to be in range of basically all Terran and Protoss units.
Simply put, they're a big investment that's hard to use and easy to lose.
i view it as an opposite tbh having a range of 7-11 depending on how you choose to use it. don't forget fungal keeps tanks from sieging/unsieging
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As awesome as the Infestor seems, in general it helps to see it in perspective.
The Infestor is generally fragile, but so are most spellcasters so that;s okay as well as the fact that burrow move comes standard is a plus.
Spells:
Spawn Infested Terran - Is generally used as extra dps in roach on roach, for worker line harass, or as a panic attack spell used in tandem with Fungal growth to kill dropships.
Neural Parasite - Great for annoying massive units or spellcasters but otherwise generally useless.
Fungal Growth - Is literally an insta baneling on anywhere you choose. Fungal does almost exactly the same damage as a baneling and holds units in their place.
Now, since most players see the Infestor as a fungal growth farm, one might understand why one might not get them. Why have the near CERTAINTY of striking with ONE fungal growth than the POSSIBILITY of landing with EIGHT banelings?
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Because muta/baneling/ling in many of an opinion is just more solid than infestor/baneling/ling.
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What's the big deal with getting pathogen glands? It's a major gas investment for not having any infestors on the field. I mean, if you just BUILD the Infestors first thing, they'll have time to build up most of that energy anyway, as well as getting into position.
The raw numbers say there's a window of about 15 seconds where researching PG gives more energy than simply getting the infestors right away. Naturally you'd want to get PG at some point, but the immediate advantage doesn't seem worth the cost.
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On February 01 2011 21:58 bobucles wrote:
The raw numbers say there's a window of about 15 seconds where researching PG gives more energy than simply getting the infestors right away. Naturally you'd want to get PG at some point, but the immediate advantage doesn't seem worth the cost.
It depends on whether or not you are confident in your ability to keep your original infestors alive.
If you plan on continue building infestors, you will have the most benefit if you get the upgrade instantly. That way, you will have the longest period of time where the upgrade is useful. Getting it later, means that there will be a timing window where you won't have it available if you keep building units.
Me personally, I think that if you go infestors, you pretty much need it.
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On February 01 2011 14:09 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 14:02 eth3n wrote:
not just mutas my friend, roach/hydra/infestor v roach/hydra/infestor zvz leads to epic battles of chicken and tactical decisionmaking My experience would be that if you go roach hydra infestor, I will kill you off with my "nothing but roach army with better upgrades" when I max at +2+2 and you are well below maxed. I guess that could be wrong if your micro is superior, but it seems to hold true in my experience.
unless you dont build up all extractors you will have quite a lot of gas left if you go for roaches only and thats why infestors are a good addition
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Most zergs just want that massive muta ball to feel safe. So no gas left for other (non-baneling) units.
Personally I feel that mutaball-safety once I get 5 infestors in zvt. Mutas come after that.
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As terran my fav unit is ghost, however in most games am unable to use that unit as i will struggle to make them pay for themselfs and also they are very micro intensive units,,Alot of top zergs do use infestors but because of the way zerg is they cannot just simply mass them up along with other units, they come as a response in various situations and becuase most zerg pro's will use a zerg unit within 20-30 seconds of it spawning, if they were going to go infestors then they would not have enough energy to make them cost effective.. There is nothing wrong with infestors however they are used a fair amount in the EU ladder with quite high sucess and as more strategies and builds are refined and developed over time you will see them put to good use.
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United States7483 Posts
The best part about infestors vs. banelings, is that after you fungal growth (or other spells) to do the damage you need it to, the unit is still alive, and if you burrow or just run away you have a pretty good chance of using the infestor again later, something these cost comparisons aren't considering.
No matter how good your micro is, a baneling can only do damage once.
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just got into this thread, and im going to go through all 7 pages soon but first i'll comment lol, if you were watching screddit with destiny he brought up a important point about having infestors in your army, even though they have great spells there energy does have to regenerate, so if the opponent is constantly engaging they don't have time to regenerate the energy to use their spells, Its the same with Terran having alot of ravens or toss having too many sentries. At least thats what I think lol
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On February 01 2011 06:38 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2011 06:32 sieesch wrote:
3,1k masterleague zerg, i feel like i never have enough gas as zerg. So when i got zerglingspeed (and roach if they open hellion) i rush for tier2 and when the lair is up you will need to pressure back or good terrans will be in a position where they just macro so had that an never ending attack starts, so you need to delay his third for a while and harass, also you need to deal with his harass to get your own macro going so you will need Mutas to deal with drops and harass your opponent
at least you will need about 16 to deal with turrets, so that he cant leave his base so easily, while you get your own macro going, when he got his third and got enough defence to deal with your harass you will be scared of an hard timingattack to deal with these kind of an attack you will need tier3 units i.g. Broodlords, so after you got your 16mutas and you got your macro and upgrades going i like to rush for tier3 and save up as much gas as possible for broodlords, ofc you could try to use infestor to delay his push but you delay your tier3units by that as well, so i like to skip infestor
tbh i tried to go for infestor and drop in midgame instead of mutalisk, but it felt quite harder to deal with drops and also to pressure back, and dropresearch takes quite a while This. I am 3k+ masterleague zerg as well, and to be honest, I have NEVER made an infestor in a 1v1 ladder game. Gas is such a precious resource I feel like infestor is a waste. Given a choice between an upgrade or infestor, I will choose upgrade 100% of the time. Not to mention I already feel like I am jumping around constantly with micro/macro/map control/scouting/injecting/creeping, I feel like taking even more time for a perfectly placed fungal growth is too rare an opportunity to be worth it imo. Then again maybe I just suck and it is a huge leak, but I never used them and don't plan on it anytime soon. Even in ZvZ, when I see my opponent getting infestors, it feels like a free win. Oh, you can lock me down for a few seconds? Well my +2/+2 speedroaches/hydras are still gonna pwn your whole army.
Sadly I think you two guys are generally correct, infestors usually aren't the best way to spend mid game gas. I'm a 2650 Diamond (#1 rank, no masters league yet, doh) that used to use infestors extensively with mixed results. Infestors are hard to analyze because like other spellcaster units, when you make infestors and don't use them immediately, their effectiveness actually goes up. Therefore any infestor strategy that incorporates a way to delay or stall the enemy is going to have the most effect. Similarly, making infestors sooner, is better than making infestors later, but ONLY if you can prevent early engagements. This is why Leenock went fast 1 base infestor on Delta Quadrant versus ZenexByun, he needed to get his 4 infestors out quickly so that he could maximize their energy build up.
Here is my experience with infestors...
In ZvZ - Using Infestors solely for Infested Terran raids:
I often take a defensive position at my natural, with a few spines, as many roaches as I can afford, while making 2 or 3 infestors with burrow, for the sole purpose of raiding the other Z's mineral line. Zerg so rarely get detection for their bases (usually if they get an overseer its near MY base) that its been working about 50-75% of the time on ladder. The real key to this working is being very patient and letting the infestors energy build up to near maximum before launching the ITs. The trick is of course defending the other zerg's roach/hydra army when you are down 400 - 600 gas (infestors, burrow, infestation pit cost) while your commando infestors build up energy. I sometimes just die to a strong macro zerg that hits me fast with roach hydra with 2/0 upgrades or similar. If the zerg does not attack me soon enough though, and instead takes a 3rd, I almost always win. If he finally attacks me later on, or I lure his army away from his natural (to defend his 3rd for instance), that is when I launch the ITs from my 3 near full energy infestors. Usually I kill 10 - 20 drones, and if his drones flee immediately the ITs can often just snipe the hatchery. I usually get my infestors burrowed and into his mineral line by the 9 or 10 min mark, where they camp out. Oddly enough Zergs almost never have an overseer near their own mineral line, so its best to get your infestors in to position ASAP, before its likely that an overseer will guard the front of his base. Pathogen glands are too expensive for this type of strategy and not useful, as the plan is just to make 2 infestors and wait for energy anyway. Also I gotta admit that this strategy is gimmicky, the only reason it works is nobody expects it, otherwise its easily countered.
In ZvZ - Using Infestors to counter muta:
Nothing fancy here, everyone uses fungal and hydra to punish heavy muta. The risk here is that adding infestors makes your composition more defensive, than offensive.
In ZvZ - Infestors to counter delayed ling/bane:
When zerg stick with speedling/bane into the mid game, it is wickedly devastating to land a single fungal on clumped banes or lings. Yes, you will have a smalller roach/hydra army if you made a couple of infestors, but that's all you will need to clean him up afterwards. The risk is that you don't land a good fungal.
In ZvT - Infestor versus MMM:
Surprisingly I have discovered this is usually bad! Infestor seem like the perfect counter, but by forgoing or having fewer banes, I tend to get run over by a strong MMM army. The reason here is the timing attacks always come before the infestors have much energy. Like a previous poster mentioned, you can get 9 banes for the gas cost of an infestor. Infestors make more sense here when you add them to a 150 - 175 supply army, to round it out, after gas is less of an issue, and you are just aiming at good unit composition. Likewise if you have to make the infestation pit anyway are going to hive tech, making 2 infestor, and having them camp in your base gaining energy is a good idea I think.
In ZvT - Infestor to support Broodlords:
I've done this just to lock down those pesky, kiting vikings, so I can kill them with my corruptors.
In ZvT - Fungal Raids on specific maps:
Maps like Xel Naga, where the 3rd is on low ground, the mineral line is ridiculously vulnerable to fungal raids. We've seen zerg do this in the GSL.
In ZvT - Neural Parasite versus Thors:
It works and its cost effective, believe it! Its all about the technique and ensuring you still have some kind of normal army to compliment the infestors.
In ZvP - Fungaling Phoenix/Void:
Best way to kill Phoenix. Sometimes the only way to kill phoenix! Only useful if they make a lot of them.
In ZvP - Fungal to prevent Colossus kite:
I rarely bother with infestors in ZvP, but in quite a few games versus good opponents, I found that a simple fungal on their deathball makes everything easier for zerg. Your roaches get a better surround. You more easily can snipe the colossus. Its a pretty good win, especially if you have Ultras, a 1 or 2 fungals can turn the entire battle. Neural Parasite versus Colossus/Immortal I've rarely tried, but I am curious about its possibilities. So hard to keep the infestor alive in this situation. Much better in small skirmishes, but you usually won't have NP researched when the right opportunity comes up.
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For people going for infestors in ZvT and ZvP, where do you find the gas? I think infestors are great in ZvZ vs mass roach or muta play, but vs T and P my comps are gas heavy as is (bane/muta/ling into broods or roach->brood vs mech against terran, ling/muta or roach/hydra/corrupter into broods vs P). I'm definitely lacking in mechanics/apm vs the players I get matched with but even if I had the APM I just can't see having the economy for infestors w/out crippling your army.
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On February 02 2011 02:44 tskarzyn wrote:
For people going for infestors in ZvT and ZvP, where do you find the gas? I think infestors are great in ZvZ vs mass roach or muta play, but vs T and P my comps are gas heavy as is (bane/muta/ling into broods or roach->brood vs mech against terran, ling/muta or roach/hydra/corrupter into broods vs P). I'm definitely lacking in mechanics/apm vs the players I get matched with but even if I had the APM I just can't see having the economy for infestors w/out crippling your army.
Early infestors gets you a 3rd faster than mutalisk midgames, which gets you more gas.also a 4th and 5th base are easier to defend with infestors, allowing you to take even more bases (and more gas)
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I agree with the sentiment that they're so fat they're easy to snipe. Protoss spellcaster: templar. Tiny. Terran spellcaster: ghost (tiny), Raven (shields and lots of HP).
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EPT
