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On February 20 2012 05:07 dehdar wrote:I don't understand how people have so little faith in Blizzard. I mean considering how many ressources they're invested to lower the amount of hacks compared to billion dollar industries that makes Blizzard look like a locale sausage factory, they should get a medal! We can spend all day discussing how it's Blizzard's fault that a random guy who knows how to program, can make a hack in less than a day or to be very specific disable FoW with less than 25 lines of code. But when you take into consideration that the U.S. military, Pentagon and NASA were all hacked by single persons, whom were very capable hackers, but nothing extra-ordinary, then I fail to see how all this anger towards blizzard can be justified. Robert Butyka a 26 year old developer gained full access to NASA's servers and databases. Same with the famous scott Gary McKinnon when he hacked Pentagon... As I mentioned, Blizzard has invested a lot of ressources in implementing and updating Warden, and they have educated and hired full time staff to watch replays, they're spending countless of hours, days, weeks, months tracking and suing hackers... What more can they do without breaking the law? Perhaps they should install a worm that will monitor all activies on your machine, send suspicious activies back to mechanical turks working 24/7 at Blizzard so they can dispatch a Hitman to pay the hackers a visit? Will that be satisfying? Actually thinking of it... It kind of will  But seriously, what more can they do? I don't mean to be "optimistic" or "support" Blizzard, I just express my opinion.
For my part, I'm not hating on Blizzard. I think they're putting effort into fighting hackers and Warden is good tool to do so. It serves its purpose. But I still wouldn't say they do "everything" they could possibly do. They do what is reasonable from the perspective of a business.
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On February 20 2012 04:53 Sergio1992 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 04:43 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:41 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:37 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:31 TBone- wrote:On February 20 2012 02:45 cydial wrote:
So many people think they know better than a multi fucking billion dollar company like blizzard to the point that they give advice as if they are some adviser for an info sec company. And have you noticed that multi billion dollar company has one of the worst social features out of any modern online game? And that proofs it! Everything! Because they had no chat from the beginning, they surely dont know how to prevent hacks and stuff and are stupid in general. Well done, sir. Could not have done it better. /thread .... seriously? Because they didnt have "social features" fitting your imagination, they dont know what theyre doing? Really? I have used the chat not once since its implementation. Not once. So, yeah. Glad they put the effort in it. would you kindly read the whole topic instead of reading a statement out of context, and trying to insert your meaningless statement there, obviously not acknowledging the truth that lies behind some people' words? Well there is no truth, because the "argument" has nothing to do with the actual topic? OP said "hacking hard/impossible". 12 guys saying "nah, pretty easy". One guy says "well im sure you know better than a multibillion company". Then someone comes and says "yeah, i saw that regarding their social options". Wtf? So now you can judge the priority of anti-cheat-measures in companies with looking at their social services? Yeah, that really sounds like an argument to me. Really. Edit: and "the truth" is, the "worst social features" is not even true, not that it would matter, but just to have it said. Ok, I'll help you. They said they didn't even give what promised us (go in this topic http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308482 to understand what we are talking about) , how can they do a good work with hacks? The correlation is They promised it = they didn't give us They didn't promise it = imagine how much they care about hacks if they don't even care giving what should be rightfully ours according to their promises
Thats your argument. Really.
Sorry, thats so, well, to put it nicely: off the track, that i dont even know how to answer it. And frankly, i dont even care.
But let me try anyway. Look, blizzard is a company. Right? They are a business. So lets say, you are a company. What you want to do, is to prevent cheating for the "average joe". Mission accomplished. If you dont know what youre doing there, chances are high that you get banned. So far, so good. As a company, you try to hold this standard. Nothing more, because everything else would be completely retarded. You cant make it cheatproof, no matter how much money you burn into that mission. You just cant. In the end, the same people (the ones who know what theyre doing) are still cheating, the average joes couldnt cheat beforehand.
Get it? Theres no reason at all to improve further. In the contrary, it would be stupid, because you lose money due to manpower needed to prevent cheating (which again, will never be accomplished).
That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they may have promised stuff and did not deliver. In any way. People like that guy who mentioned that blizzard should rework the whole "system", to prevent hacks.. Yeah. Right. Let them invent the game new, just to be cheated after a short while again (because again: you cant be not-cheated, even if nothing is stored locally). So you burned alot of money for.. What?
Blizzard is actually doing it completely right with SC2. If you do more, its pointless. If you do less, a lot of cheating happens. Both is not the case.
Edit: of course, not to mention people like these in this thread, which want a completely cheatproof game, but FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU if you try to scan my computer for cheats!! And yes, to be at least in any case efficient against cheats, you have to scan the processes. For more safety, you would need to scan even more.
But, im curious.. Because you seem really wise and stuff. Stop being just talk, and show me how it could be done. Whats your idea of "cheatproof", what could they do?
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On February 20 2012 05:16 .syd. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:07 dehdar wrote:I don't understand how people have so little faith in Blizzard. I mean considering how many ressources they're invested to lower the amount of hacks compared to billion dollar industries that makes Blizzard look like a locale sausage factory, they should get a medal! We can spend all day discussing how it's Blizzard's fault that a random guy who knows how to program, can make a hack in less than a day or to be very specific disable FoW with less than 25 lines of code. But when you take into consideration that the U.S. military, Pentagon and NASA were all hacked by single persons, whom were very capable hackers, but nothing extra-ordinary, then I fail to see how all this anger towards blizzard can be justified. Robert Butyka a 26 year old developer gained full access to NASA's servers and databases. Same with the famous scott Gary McKinnon when he hacked Pentagon... As I mentioned, Blizzard has invested a lot of ressources in implementing and updating Warden, and they have educated and hired full time staff to watch replays, they're spending countless of hours, days, weeks, months tracking and suing hackers... What more can they do without breaking the law? Perhaps they should install a worm that will monitor all activies on your machine, send suspicious activies back to mechanical turks working 24/7 at Blizzard so they can dispatch a Hitman to pay the hackers a visit? Will that be satisfying? Actually thinking of it... It kind of will But seriously, what more can they do? I don't mean to be "optimistic" or "support" Blizzard, I just express my opinion. For my part, I'm not hating on Blizzard. I think they're putting effort into fighting hackers and Warden is good tool to do so. It serves its purpose. But I still wouldn't say they do "everything" they could possibly do. They do what is reasonable from the perspective of a business.
Yes I fully agree and it's my fault if people interpret it any other way. In the domain of what's feasible, blizzard is doing what they can. However I get the sense that a lot of people are blaming Blizzard that their games can be hacked... as if the developers can change all this by inverting a bit...
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To the people that quoted my post saying things like "it's impossible to secure" and "they have done everything they can"... I'm going to shoot down your entire argument right here and right now:
Maphacks work by modifying just a few game variables. Every time a patch comes out, the variables are SIMPLY RENAMED so that the people that made the maphacks have to find the variable again. This is literally the extent of what they have done to "actively" stop maphacking. They changed the name... PLEASE realize that this is NOT what some of you are calling "impossible to secure"... as they have done literally NOTHING to prevent maphacks. If you can show me a shred of evidence otherwise (you can't, because they haven't), then I'll retract my statements.
You are acting like I think if Blizzard actually tried there would be no hacks... which simply isn't true. What I am saying is that if they DID do something, people would have to find a NEW WAY to make a maphack. Every MH that has been released for SC2 since launch has used the same exploit. (read carefully on my wording of exploit, as I'm intending it to be used as "code that can be modified to do something unintentional, and in this case, make a working maphack").
I realize that Blizzard can't make a perfectly secure game... because NOBODY can. However, they COULD be working to SOLVE THE ISSUES that hackers are using to exploit the game and create things like maphacks. This is how it works with ANY other game.
If someone figured out how to dupe in WoW, that would probably be fixed, correct? It would be fixed by finding out HOW the person did it, then patching the vulnerable code so that it wont work anymore. When it comes to maphacks, Blizzard has NEVER done ANYTHING to prevent them from being made (unless you consider renaming the variable in question prevention... which it isn't).
If you look at an open-source maphack from 2 weeks after the game was released... and an open-source maphack from yesterday, you will find VERY SIMILAR code because the exploits that are being used to create the maphack are STILL THERE. This has never been fixed.
I don't know how else to explain to some of you people that either:
A) Simply can't accept the fact that Blizzard hasn't done anything to PREVENT maphacks from being made
B) Don't have the proper programming / hacking knowledge to realize this isn't very complicated stuff
It's network entrusion security / software vulnerability testing in it's most basic form. There is a SIMPLE flaw in SC2 that is allowing these maphacks to be made... and Blizzard has done nothing to fix the problem. There is no argument... it's just whether or not some people want to accept the reality that Blizzard doesn't care because they are MAKING MONEY from people using hacks (by banning them and forcing to cough up another $60 for a new account).
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On February 20 2012 05:19 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 04:53 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:43 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:41 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:37 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:31 TBone- wrote:On February 20 2012 02:45 cydial wrote:
So many people think they know better than a multi fucking billion dollar company like blizzard to the point that they give advice as if they are some adviser for an info sec company. And have you noticed that multi billion dollar company has one of the worst social features out of any modern online game? And that proofs it! Everything! Because they had no chat from the beginning, they surely dont know how to prevent hacks and stuff and are stupid in general. Well done, sir. Could not have done it better. /thread .... seriously? Because they didnt have "social features" fitting your imagination, they dont know what theyre doing? Really? I have used the chat not once since its implementation. Not once. So, yeah. Glad they put the effort in it. would you kindly read the whole topic instead of reading a statement out of context, and trying to insert your meaningless statement there, obviously not acknowledging the truth that lies behind some people' words? Well there is no truth, because the "argument" has nothing to do with the actual topic? OP said "hacking hard/impossible". 12 guys saying "nah, pretty easy". One guy says "well im sure you know better than a multibillion company". Then someone comes and says "yeah, i saw that regarding their social options". Wtf? So now you can judge the priority of anti-cheat-measures in companies with looking at their social services? Yeah, that really sounds like an argument to me. Really. Edit: and "the truth" is, the "worst social features" is not even true, not that it would matter, but just to have it said. Ok, I'll help you. They said they didn't even give what promised us (go in this topic http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308482 to understand what we are talking about) , how can they do a good work with hacks? The correlation is They promised it = they didn't give us They didn't promise it = imagine how much they care about hacks if they don't even care giving what should be rightfully ours according to their promises Thats your argument. Really. Sorry, thats so, well, to put it nicely: off the track, that i dont even know how to answer it. And frankly, i dont even care. But let me try anyway. Look, blizzard is a company. Right? They are a business. So lets say, you are a company. What you want to do, is to prevent cheating for the "average joe". Mission accomplished. If you dont know what youre doing there, chances are high that you get banned. So far, so good. As a company, you try to hold this standard. Nothing more, because everything else would be completely retarded. You cant make it cheatproof, no matter how much money you burn into that mission. You just cant. In the end, the same people (the ones who know what theyre doing) are still cheating, the average joes couldnt cheat beforehand. Get it? Theres no reason at all to improve further. In the contrary, it would be stupid, because you lose money due to manpower needed to prevent cheating (which again, will never be accomplished). That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they may have promised stuff and did not deliver. In any way. People like that guy who mentioned that blizzard should rework the whole "system", to prevent hacks.. Yeah. Right. Let them invent the game new, just to be cheated after a short while again (because again: you cant be not-cheated, even if nothing is stored locally). So you burned alot of money for.. What? Blizzard is actually doing it completely right with SC2. If you do more, its pointless. If you do less, a lot of cheating happens. Both is not the case. Edit: of course, not to mention people like these in this thread, which want a completely cheatproof game, but FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU if you try to scan my computer for cheats!! And yes, to be at least in any case efficient against cheats, you have to scan the processes. For more safety, you would need to scan even more. But, im curious.. Because you seem really wise and stuff. Stop being just talk, and show me how it could be done. Whats your idea of "cheatproof", what could they do?
How could manpower that should be used to prevent cheating cripple blizzard's bussiness?
What you just said it is weird
Well with you it is wasted time. You pretend to say that if they made more effort it would be wasted. It doesn't matter if a service is bad, if it looks good, or at least , it seems so, there is no need to complain about.
Right . Or am I wrong?
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Sergio care to explain what Blizzard COULD be doing that they aren't? Or will you keep that as a secret?
actively taking steps to prevent hacking.
It is not hard.
Edit 2 r4y said what I was writing.
Edit 3: I edited because I was overall too aggressive in this post. I apologize.
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people who waste their time hacking video games need to go join anonymous and actually put that skill to use instead of wasting it trying to make themselves feel good in a game, i've played ppl who were obviously hacking, terrans that never scan/scout and still know your tech path/unit positioning (diamond na even, sad they can't get farther even while hacking.) and if there's people who are so sad, they can't develop hacks, and they can't get good at the game, and use other ppls hacks to make themselves happy, plz just go commit suicide already
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On February 20 2012 05:22 dehdar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:16 .syd. wrote:On February 20 2012 05:07 dehdar wrote:I don't understand how people have so little faith in Blizzard. I mean considering how many ressources they're invested to lower the amount of hacks compared to billion dollar industries that makes Blizzard look like a locale sausage factory, they should get a medal! We can spend all day discussing how it's Blizzard's fault that a random guy who knows how to program, can make a hack in less than a day or to be very specific disable FoW with less than 25 lines of code. But when you take into consideration that the U.S. military, Pentagon and NASA were all hacked by single persons, whom were very capable hackers, but nothing extra-ordinary, then I fail to see how all this anger towards blizzard can be justified. Robert Butyka a 26 year old developer gained full access to NASA's servers and databases. Same with the famous scott Gary McKinnon when he hacked Pentagon... As I mentioned, Blizzard has invested a lot of ressources in implementing and updating Warden, and they have educated and hired full time staff to watch replays, they're spending countless of hours, days, weeks, months tracking and suing hackers... What more can they do without breaking the law? Perhaps they should install a worm that will monitor all activies on your machine, send suspicious activies back to mechanical turks working 24/7 at Blizzard so they can dispatch a Hitman to pay the hackers a visit? Will that be satisfying? Actually thinking of it... It kind of will But seriously, what more can they do? I don't mean to be "optimistic" or "support" Blizzard, I just express my opinion. For my part, I'm not hating on Blizzard. I think they're putting effort into fighting hackers and Warden is good tool to do so. It serves its purpose. But I still wouldn't say they do "everything" they could possibly do. They do what is reasonable from the perspective of a business. Yes I fully agree and it's my fault if people interpret it any other way. In the domain of what's feasible, blizzard is doing what they can. However I get the sense that a lot of people are blaming Blizzard that their games can be hacked... as if the developers can change all this by inverting a bit...
I also don't see why one should bash Blizzard for that. Hacking actually isn't that much of a problem in Starcraft 2. I've been playing online games for more than 10 years now and every other game that I played has been plagued with hacks/cheats much more than SC2 is. In 1500+ ladder games, I haven't had a single game in which I was convincingly sure my opponent maphacked. Apart from that, there were about 5 Drophackers (that probably were caught later anyway). Even if you maphack, the advantage the hacker gets still isn't as striking as it is, for example, with an aimbot/wallhack in first person shooters.
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I think people worry far too much, Aslong as blizzard keep doing what they can to stop hacking becoming very widespread i'm quite pleased. I can honestly say there is only 1 game i've played on the ladder where i thought i was against a someone hacking, watched the replay and it clearly showed he was map hacking (I ended up winning woo!! ). So in general either i dont notice that many "hackers" or blizzard is doing enough to keep the population down.
But regardless of that, i personally just think if i can beat someone thats hacking then it shows i have the ability to play a "solid game". It would just feel like a different type of "practice". How do you beat somebody that knows everything you do. You just play as solid as possible. The greatest thing about a "solid" type of play it also works against non hackers. If you lose to a "hacker" then just figure out what you could have done to beat that player.
But think about it if somebody is using hacks to get to the level that you play at. Then you are already better then them. Even if they beat you you can analyse that replay and figure out how you could have won. If they are hacking and at your level then obviously they can be beaten. Or they would have a 100% record or atleast be playing much higher level players.
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On February 20 2012 05:29 PR4Y wrote:
To the people that quoted my post saying things like "it's impossible to secure" and "they have done everything they can"... I'm going to shoot down your entire argument right here and right now:
Maphacks work by modifying just a few game variables. Every time a patch comes out, the variables are SIMPLY RENAMED so that the people that made the maphacks have to find the variable again. This is literally the extent of what they have done to "actively" stop maphacking. They changed the name... PLEASE realize that this is NOT what some of you are calling "impossible to secure"... as they have done literally NOTHING to prevent maphacks. If you can show me a shred of evidence otherwise (you can't, because they haven't), then I'll retract my statements.
You are acting like I think if Blizzard actually tried there would be no hacks... which simply isn't true. What I am saying is that if they DID do something, people would have to find a NEW WAY to make a maphack. Every MH that has been released for SC2 since launch has used the same exploit. (read carefully on my wording of exploit, as I'm intending it to be used as "code that can be modified to do something unintentional, and in this case, make a working maphack").
I realize that Blizzard can't make a perfectly secure game... because NOBODY can. However, they COULD be working to SOLVE THE ISSUES that hackers are using to exploit the game and create things like maphacks. This is how it works with ANY other game.
If someone figured out how to dupe in WoW, that would probably be fixed, correct? It would be fixed by finding out HOW the person did it, then patching the vulnerable code so that it wont work anymore. When it comes to maphacks, Blizzard has NEVER done ANYTHING to prevent them from being made (unless you consider renaming the variable in question prevention... which it isn't).
If you look at an open-source maphack from 2 weeks after the game was released... and an open-source maphack from yesterday, you will find VERY SIMILAR code because the exploits that are being used to create the maphack are STILL THERE. This has never been fixed.
I don't know how else to explain to some of you people that either:
A) Simply can't accept the fact that Blizzard hasn't done anything to PREVENT maphacks from being made
B) Don't have the proper programming / hacking knowledge to realize this isn't very complicated stuff
It's network entrusion security / software vulnerability testing in it's most basic form. There is a SIMPLE flaw in SC2 that is allowing these maphacks to be made... and Blizzard has done nothing to fix the problem. There is no argument... it's just whether or not some people want to accept the reality that Blizzard doesn't care because they are MAKING MONEY from people using hacks (by banning them and forcing to cough up another $60 for a new account).
I don't think you can make money from banning people. I think you make money by having a good reputation, patching your games to improve glitches, balancing races, enhancing competition by implementing new features (such as the ladder system), etc. etc. Who knows? I don't, because marketing is not my domain, so I'm not qualified to give an answer on this...
Regarding Blizzard you left out Warden. You can't expect them to redesign their game to counter hackers. Every single time you change production code, it needs to be reviewed, documentated, tested... Ugh micro-manage staff makes life so difficult  When warden scans for specific patterns, they are matched against existing ones. For instance a pattern could be (I know you're well aware of this, but I'm sure others are reading too) you initializing some strings in a specific order in your functions... This is enough to get you banned. Sure you can counter this by hooking a query which will return NULL in your functions..., but who knows what Warden really does? So why complain? All we know for a fact is that it keeps evolving and cheaters keep getting banned. That's enough to keep me satisfied.
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On February 20 2012 05:30 Sergio1992 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:19 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:53 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:43 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:41 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:37 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:31 TBone- wrote:On February 20 2012 02:45 cydial wrote:
So many people think they know better than a multi fucking billion dollar company like blizzard to the point that they give advice as if they are some adviser for an info sec company. And have you noticed that multi billion dollar company has one of the worst social features out of any modern online game? And that proofs it! Everything! Because they had no chat from the beginning, they surely dont know how to prevent hacks and stuff and are stupid in general. Well done, sir. Could not have done it better. /thread .... seriously? Because they didnt have "social features" fitting your imagination, they dont know what theyre doing? Really? I have used the chat not once since its implementation. Not once. So, yeah. Glad they put the effort in it. would you kindly read the whole topic instead of reading a statement out of context, and trying to insert your meaningless statement there, obviously not acknowledging the truth that lies behind some people' words? Well there is no truth, because the "argument" has nothing to do with the actual topic? OP said "hacking hard/impossible". 12 guys saying "nah, pretty easy". One guy says "well im sure you know better than a multibillion company". Then someone comes and says "yeah, i saw that regarding their social options". Wtf? So now you can judge the priority of anti-cheat-measures in companies with looking at their social services? Yeah, that really sounds like an argument to me. Really. Edit: and "the truth" is, the "worst social features" is not even true, not that it would matter, but just to have it said. Ok, I'll help you. They said they didn't even give what promised us (go in this topic http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308482 to understand what we are talking about) , how can they do a good work with hacks? The correlation is They promised it = they didn't give us They didn't promise it = imagine how much they care about hacks if they don't even care giving what should be rightfully ours according to their promises Thats your argument. Really. Sorry, thats so, well, to put it nicely: off the track, that i dont even know how to answer it. And frankly, i dont even care. But let me try anyway. Look, blizzard is a company. Right? They are a business. So lets say, you are a company. What you want to do, is to prevent cheating for the "average joe". Mission accomplished. If you dont know what youre doing there, chances are high that you get banned. So far, so good. As a company, you try to hold this standard. Nothing more, because everything else would be completely retarded. You cant make it cheatproof, no matter how much money you burn into that mission. You just cant. In the end, the same people (the ones who know what theyre doing) are still cheating, the average joes couldnt cheat beforehand. Get it? Theres no reason at all to improve further. In the contrary, it would be stupid, because you lose money due to manpower needed to prevent cheating (which again, will never be accomplished). That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they may have promised stuff and did not deliver. In any way. People like that guy who mentioned that blizzard should rework the whole "system", to prevent hacks.. Yeah. Right. Let them invent the game new, just to be cheated after a short while again (because again: you cant be not-cheated, even if nothing is stored locally). So you burned alot of money for.. What? Blizzard is actually doing it completely right with SC2. If you do more, its pointless. If you do less, a lot of cheating happens. Both is not the case. Edit: of course, not to mention people like these in this thread, which want a completely cheatproof game, but FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU if you try to scan my computer for cheats!! And yes, to be at least in any case efficient against cheats, you have to scan the processes. For more safety, you would need to scan even more. But, im curious.. Because you seem really wise and stuff. Stop being just talk, and show me how it could be done. Whats your idea of "cheatproof", what could they do? How could manpower that should be used to prevent cheating cripple blizzard's bussiness? What you just said it is weird Well with you it is wasted time. You pretend to say that if they made more effort it would be wasted. It doesn't matter if a service is bad, if it looks good, or at least , it seems so, there is no need to complain about. Right . Or am I wrong? ------------- Show nested quote + Sergio care to explain what Blizzard COULD be doing that they aren't? Or will you keep that as a secret? actively taking steps to prevent hacking. It is not hard. Edit 2 r4y said what I was writing. Edit 3: I edited because I was overall too aggressive in this post. I apologize.
I never used the word cripple. I said it costs money (which could be spent elsewhere, because in the end, the money is spent for nothing). Big difference, but wouldnt look so good in your "argument", correct?
Also you assume the service is bad, which it is not. Theres not that many cheaters out there. In 90% of the games (at least!), when you think "that bastard HAS to be cheating!!!!11": you just suck. And with that i dont mean you personally, but every starcraftplayer, including me. And sure, you can complain all you want. But in the end, nothing will and nothing COULD change.
About my question regarding what blizzard could do, you gave a very vague answer. Could you go into detail with "preventing hacking active", please?
And as for your edit, i saw what you wrote. And i had a good laugh. You know why (im from germany btw).
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The amount of expertise regarding hacking and cheating in this thread is flabbergasting.
Makes me feel like a lot of people have at least checked out some of the hacks out there.
Is this a thing now?
Is that common?
I'd rather enjoy the game than constantly trying to break it.
And regarding that Youtube video advertising a maphack... I think posting that is just in bad taste.
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Just for clarification, the theory that you have for how map hacks isn't entirely true. You can create a full blown map hack without injection, just memory modification. What "legit" players are unaware of is that in SC2 there is another player in your ladder games called "Neutral". Making a simple memory modification you can fool the game that you are the Neutral player and see all. (A fun fact, the "Neutral" player also controls the animals in the game).
In it's current form, Warden is unable to detect map hacks. Simple as. Not only is SC2.exe hooked, but Warden is also. Thus, maphack creators can tell when warden is scanning for active byte(s) changed in the SC2 memory and in turn, disable it for a brief millisecond. Warden continues on and the map hack remains undetected.
The ultimate failsafe is the hack actually disables itself if a new version of Warden is active. Requiring vetting from the map hacker to determine whether it is still safe to be enabled.
I have also not seen warden "scan my RAM" to see what 3rd party applications are running. If it does do this, what is to stop map hackers just change a couple of bytes in a HEX editor and thus create a new EXE signature? Nothing.
Also, reading from the memory can present a whole use of information. You have a unit class and a player class. The unit class contains all the information about a unit, ie marine, x coordinate, y coordinate, health, etc. A player class contains all the information, ie camera location, vespene gas, minerals, etc).
A player structure looks like this:
01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 D8 05 00 10 34 01 00 00 20 02 00 E0 13 00 00 00 40 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 EF 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 07 00 00 00 81 02 00 00 47 75 65 73 74 20 31
From this, you can derive player state, name, camera location, team, etc. Not only that, but it can be read from the memory just as easily also.
Mod edit - code edited out
Even Blink hacks are just as easy to create:
Mod Edit - code edited out
This can even be done by a VB script kiddie, if he show choose. I think you need to give a little more respect to these hackers then you give them. They are smart and don't just do things on the fly, they think about what they are doing. It takes a lot of know how to do what they do.
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On February 20 2012 06:28 ePisode wrote:
...
![[image loading]](http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/7/73/JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg/618px-JeanLucPicardFacepalm.jpg)
User was warned for this post
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On February 20 2012 05:49 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:30 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 05:19 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:53 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:43 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:41 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:37 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:31 TBone- wrote:On February 20 2012 02:45 cydial wrote:
So many people think they know better than a multi fucking billion dollar company like blizzard to the point that they give advice as if they are some adviser for an info sec company. And have you noticed that multi billion dollar company has one of the worst social features out of any modern online game? And that proofs it! Everything! Because they had no chat from the beginning, they surely dont know how to prevent hacks and stuff and are stupid in general. Well done, sir. Could not have done it better. /thread .... seriously? Because they didnt have "social features" fitting your imagination, they dont know what theyre doing? Really? I have used the chat not once since its implementation. Not once. So, yeah. Glad they put the effort in it. would you kindly read the whole topic instead of reading a statement out of context, and trying to insert your meaningless statement there, obviously not acknowledging the truth that lies behind some people' words? Well there is no truth, because the "argument" has nothing to do with the actual topic? OP said "hacking hard/impossible". 12 guys saying "nah, pretty easy". One guy says "well im sure you know better than a multibillion company". Then someone comes and says "yeah, i saw that regarding their social options". Wtf? So now you can judge the priority of anti-cheat-measures in companies with looking at their social services? Yeah, that really sounds like an argument to me. Really. Edit: and "the truth" is, the "worst social features" is not even true, not that it would matter, but just to have it said. Ok, I'll help you. They said they didn't even give what promised us (go in this topic http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308482 to understand what we are talking about) , how can they do a good work with hacks? The correlation is They promised it = they didn't give us They didn't promise it = imagine how much they care about hacks if they don't even care giving what should be rightfully ours according to their promises Thats your argument. Really. Sorry, thats so, well, to put it nicely: off the track, that i dont even know how to answer it. And frankly, i dont even care. But let me try anyway. Look, blizzard is a company. Right? They are a business. So lets say, you are a company. What you want to do, is to prevent cheating for the "average joe". Mission accomplished. If you dont know what youre doing there, chances are high that you get banned. So far, so good. As a company, you try to hold this standard. Nothing more, because everything else would be completely retarded. You cant make it cheatproof, no matter how much money you burn into that mission. You just cant. In the end, the same people (the ones who know what theyre doing) are still cheating, the average joes couldnt cheat beforehand. Get it? Theres no reason at all to improve further. In the contrary, it would be stupid, because you lose money due to manpower needed to prevent cheating (which again, will never be accomplished). That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they may have promised stuff and did not deliver. In any way. People like that guy who mentioned that blizzard should rework the whole "system", to prevent hacks.. Yeah. Right. Let them invent the game new, just to be cheated after a short while again (because again: you cant be not-cheated, even if nothing is stored locally). So you burned alot of money for.. What? Blizzard is actually doing it completely right with SC2. If you do more, its pointless. If you do less, a lot of cheating happens. Both is not the case. Edit: of course, not to mention people like these in this thread, which want a completely cheatproof game, but FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU if you try to scan my computer for cheats!! And yes, to be at least in any case efficient against cheats, you have to scan the processes. For more safety, you would need to scan even more. But, im curious.. Because you seem really wise and stuff. Stop being just talk, and show me how it could be done. Whats your idea of "cheatproof", what could they do? How could manpower that should be used to prevent cheating cripple blizzard's bussiness? What you just said it is weird Well with you it is wasted time. You pretend to say that if they made more effort it would be wasted. It doesn't matter if a service is bad, if it looks good, or at least , it seems so, there is no need to complain about. Right . Or am I wrong? ------------- Sergio care to explain what Blizzard COULD be doing that they aren't? Or will you keep that as a secret? actively taking steps to prevent hacking. It is not hard. Edit 2 r4y said what I was writing. Edit 3: I edited because I was overall too aggressive in this post. I apologize. I never used the word cripple. I said it costs money (which could be spent elsewhere, because in the end, the money is spent for nothing). Big difference, but wouldnt look so good in your "argument", correct? Also you assume the service is bad, which it is not. Theres not that many cheaters out there. In 90% of the games (at least!), when you think "that bastard HAS to be cheating!!!!11": you just suck. And with that i dont mean you personally, but every starcraftplayer, including me. And sure, you can complain all you want. But in the end, nothing will and nothing COULD change. About my question regarding what blizzard could do, you gave a very vague answer. Could you go into detail with "preventing hacking active", please? And as for your edit, i saw what you wrote. And i had a good laugh. You know why (im from germany btw).
I never said that there is a spreading community. Though I won't deny soon there will be , because how easy it is to use\produce hacks.
edit 2: look the above post, it explained what I meant to hide... and be vague about.
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Here's an idea, what if you did a Man in the Middle by using s a similar set up to a corporate firewall (computer with 2 NICs) to record and transmit the data? Then you could try and decode the network traffic.
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On February 20 2012 05:58 JOJOsc2news wrote:
And regarding that Youtube video advertising a maphack... I think posting that is just in bad taste.
Not an ad. You can't download it anywhere
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Cept I dont honestly believe that Blizz is doing their best to root out hackers. They have the wave of bans but thats really it. Outside of that "wave" theres virtually no largescale bans just maybe a couple while a bunch of people are still get shammed. If they were truly doing their best they would get away from banning in waves an do it as cases come in. They're not so strapped for cash to where they can't afford to hire people to go through replays an on a set list of criteria come to the conclusion of weather or not a person hacked. Like continuously looking over into the FoW an such. So yea they have warden but they're waiting till they have a collective to ban people rather then "Hey this guy is hacking he's getting a ban NOW!!!" not 2 months into the future when the next wave comes but now unlike what usually happens.
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On February 20 2012 07:41 Sergio1992 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:49 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 05:30 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 05:19 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:53 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:43 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:41 Sergio1992 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:37 m4inbrain wrote:On February 20 2012 04:31 TBone- wrote:On February 20 2012 02:45 cydial wrote:
So many people think they know better than a multi fucking billion dollar company like blizzard to the point that they give advice as if they are some adviser for an info sec company. And have you noticed that multi billion dollar company has one of the worst social features out of any modern online game? And that proofs it! Everything! Because they had no chat from the beginning, they surely dont know how to prevent hacks and stuff and are stupid in general. Well done, sir. Could not have done it better. /thread .... seriously? Because they didnt have "social features" fitting your imagination, they dont know what theyre doing? Really? I have used the chat not once since its implementation. Not once. So, yeah. Glad they put the effort in it. would you kindly read the whole topic instead of reading a statement out of context, and trying to insert your meaningless statement there, obviously not acknowledging the truth that lies behind some people' words? Well there is no truth, because the "argument" has nothing to do with the actual topic? OP said "hacking hard/impossible". 12 guys saying "nah, pretty easy". One guy says "well im sure you know better than a multibillion company". Then someone comes and says "yeah, i saw that regarding their social options". Wtf? So now you can judge the priority of anti-cheat-measures in companies with looking at their social services? Yeah, that really sounds like an argument to me. Really. Edit: and "the truth" is, the "worst social features" is not even true, not that it would matter, but just to have it said. Ok, I'll help you. They said they didn't even give what promised us (go in this topic http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308482 to understand what we are talking about) , how can they do a good work with hacks? The correlation is They promised it = they didn't give us They didn't promise it = imagine how much they care about hacks if they don't even care giving what should be rightfully ours according to their promises Thats your argument. Really. Sorry, thats so, well, to put it nicely: off the track, that i dont even know how to answer it. And frankly, i dont even care. But let me try anyway. Look, blizzard is a company. Right? They are a business. So lets say, you are a company. What you want to do, is to prevent cheating for the "average joe". Mission accomplished. If you dont know what youre doing there, chances are high that you get banned. So far, so good. As a company, you try to hold this standard. Nothing more, because everything else would be completely retarded. You cant make it cheatproof, no matter how much money you burn into that mission. You just cant. In the end, the same people (the ones who know what theyre doing) are still cheating, the average joes couldnt cheat beforehand. Get it? Theres no reason at all to improve further. In the contrary, it would be stupid, because you lose money due to manpower needed to prevent cheating (which again, will never be accomplished). That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they may have promised stuff and did not deliver. In any way. People like that guy who mentioned that blizzard should rework the whole "system", to prevent hacks.. Yeah. Right. Let them invent the game new, just to be cheated after a short while again (because again: you cant be not-cheated, even if nothing is stored locally). So you burned alot of money for.. What? Blizzard is actually doing it completely right with SC2. If you do more, its pointless. If you do less, a lot of cheating happens. Both is not the case. Edit: of course, not to mention people like these in this thread, which want a completely cheatproof game, but FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU if you try to scan my computer for cheats!! And yes, to be at least in any case efficient against cheats, you have to scan the processes. For more safety, you would need to scan even more. But, im curious.. Because you seem really wise and stuff. Stop being just talk, and show me how it could be done. Whats your idea of "cheatproof", what could they do? How could manpower that should be used to prevent cheating cripple blizzard's bussiness? What you just said it is weird Well with you it is wasted time. You pretend to say that if they made more effort it would be wasted. It doesn't matter if a service is bad, if it looks good, or at least , it seems so, there is no need to complain about. Right . Or am I wrong? ------------- Sergio care to explain what Blizzard COULD be doing that they aren't? Or will you keep that as a secret? actively taking steps to prevent hacking. It is not hard. Edit 2 r4y said what I was writing. Edit 3: I edited because I was overall too aggressive in this post. I apologize. I never used the word cripple. I said it costs money (which could be spent elsewhere, because in the end, the money is spent for nothing). Big difference, but wouldnt look so good in your "argument", correct? Also you assume the service is bad, which it is not. Theres not that many cheaters out there. In 90% of the games (at least!), when you think "that bastard HAS to be cheating!!!!11": you just suck. And with that i dont mean you personally, but every starcraftplayer, including me. And sure, you can complain all you want. But in the end, nothing will and nothing COULD change. About my question regarding what blizzard could do, you gave a very vague answer. Could you go into detail with "preventing hacking active", please? And as for your edit, i saw what you wrote. And i had a good laugh. You know why (im from germany btw). I never said that there is a spreading community. Though I won't deny soon there will be , because how easy it is to use\produce hacks. edit 2: look the above post, it explained what I meant to hide... and be vague about.
I cant really tell if you are trolling or not.
The "above post" is a facepalm, so i guess you meant the posting before that. And he didnt explain at all how someone could prevent cheating, as you claimed with (quote) "actively taking steps to prevent hacking.". The post you referred to just explains how to create a hack. You were asked how these "actively token steps to prevent hacking" should look like. Three times now.
Also im not even sure that you quoted the right person, because again, you comment something which i didnt even say. With no word whatsoever i talked about a "spreading community". In fact, quite the opposite.
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On February 20 2012 01:05 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 23:59 dehdar wrote:
As I explained hacks which uses .dll injections are all but undetectable. So if they are all but undetectable, doesn't that mean they are everything except undetectable, in other words easy to detect? I think you used that phrase incorrectly. Just trying to clear up some confusion.
while logically, it makes no sense, it is correct in the sense that it is a common usage of the phrase, and everyone knows what you mean
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seriously whats the point of maphacking, all it means is you will keep winning until you reach a level where eventually you will face people massively better than you who crush you
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EPT
