EPTHacking in Starcraft 2 - Page 3
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dementrio
678 Posts
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dehdar
170 Posts
On February 20 2012 01:29 Zocat wrote: Can you defend those 2 points considering this: http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/papers/onlinegames.pdf Thanks for the link. Interesting topic to write a paper about. I'll study it carefully when I have time, since I need to leave in an hour. But before I read the article, I'll explain why I put my those two statements. 1. I don't see what Blizzard can possibly do more than they already are. They have displayed a 0 tolerance policy by not only banning cheaters, but also by tracking down hackers and suing them. They're currently spending a lot of ressources to implement counter hack measures such as Warden, and even educating/hiring full time personel to study replays. What more can be done? I hope the answer is in your paper - regardless, I'm sure it will be interesting to read having skimmed it. 2. If we were to develop games with security as primary focus, instead of gameplay/graphics/balance/story then I'm sure the output would be less desirable. On February 20 2012 00:23 Sergio1992 wrote: countless lies. You don't even know how hacking works, you just trust blizzard, and that is what hackers are looking for  He just hopes for it, if only he would know how things work really he would put himself in shame on this forum Wrong. They could eliminate hacking permanently if they would put 1% of the effort they did to make this game unpiratable edit: At the end, I wonder: Are you an hacker , with sufficient knowledge to say what you just posted? I never claimed to be a hacker. I graduated 1½ years ago, which is nothing and what I do is considered pamper programming - yes I just came up with that term  - C#.NET (WCF, WPF, ASP.NET/PHP, etc. etc.). I do have what I consider a healthy interest for hacking though, but to make this short, if you have a problem please be direct and argue instead of these ignorant one-line insults... Also if you have the answer to how Blizzard can elminate all hacking with little to no effort, I suggest you immediately contact them... if not for the sake of the online gaming community, then at least for your own selfish reason, I'm sure you'll be compensated well | ||
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nemonic
132 Posts
On February 19 2012 23:59 dehdar wrote: Too many people are spreading rumors about hacking. I've listed some facts below to kill these baseless rumors. So basically all you do is to reply to rumours by spreading rumours yourself. You're opinion about Warden and Blizzard is excessively positive. In the end, Warden has some generic detection mechanisms that try to detect if someone tampers with the process. However, everybody with a decent understanding of low-level OS security knows how to bypass this. For example, the DLL-injection you refer to is basically the simplest method you can use to inject code/data into a process. There are plenty of other ways to do this much more stealthy. It's virtually impossible for Warden to detect hacks generically, which is why it's only good at detecting stuff it knows beforehand. That's true for every anti-hack tool. The situation is technically very much related (actually its almost identical) to the malware vs. anti-virus engines domain, the latter being known for performing very bad at detecting new malware variants. Your opinion that Blizzard does everything to bust hackers also seems to be based on the fact that they provide "some" anti-cheat tool only. I'm not saying they're doing a bad job, but claiming the do "everything they can" is just way exaggerated. Saying that "No hack that you have access to is undetectable" is right of course. On the other hand, you could also say that no anti-cheat tool (including Warden) can detect all hacks. The bottom line is that cheats that are not so wide-spread that they will eventually fall into the hands of Blizzard will (almost) never be detected by Warden. | ||
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dehdar
170 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:04 PR4Y wrote: i just wanted to post to let you know that d3scene wasn't taken down.... they are still very much alive with tons of active users. i'm not a regular there, but when the game first came out I was obviously curious about what hacks existed and found this site from a google search. i just went to d3scene.com and they aren't down... they were taken down for a few days over a year ago, but that means nothing. that's just a hiccup... and claiming that "blizzard shut down the biggest sc2 hacking website" as an argument for ongoing efforts by blizzard to stop hacks is laughable... I haven't read into it, but I'm guessing it was as simple as a blizzard lawyer sending a cease and desist letter to d3scene's host and them temporarily suspending the account. perhaps d3scene even had to switch hosts, but the fact remains that d3scene was definitely never fully "taken down". Thanks for clearing that up I removed the link. | ||
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PR4Y
United States260 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:17 dehdar wrote: But before I read the article, I'll explain why I put my those two statements. 1. I don't see what Blizzard can possibly do more than they already are. They have displayed a 0 tolerance policy by not only banning cheaters, but also by tracking down hackers and suing them. They're currently spending a lot of ressources to implement counter hack measures such as Warden, and even educating/hiring full time personel to study replays. What more can be done? I hope the answer is in your paper - regardless, I'm sure it will be interesting to read having skimmed it. 2. If we were to develop games with security as primary focus, instead of gameplay/graphics/balance/story then I'm sure the output would be less desirable. This is where you are ENTIRELY wrong. Blizzard has one of the most amazing development teams of ANY game design company in the world. That is a fact and everyone knows it. Most of these hacks are so simple to develop they use less then 100 lines of code to execute the hack in it's entirety. There are obviously more complex hacks that will detect when warden is active and immediately shut down to prevent detection... but that's just frosting on the cake, unnecessary to the hack (but quite delicious). When blizzard does a massive ban wave of 10,000+ ACTIVELY hacking accounts... do you think the CEO's and higher-up's say THANK GOD we have now provided a safer and more fair environment for our paying customers! NOPE!!! What is more likely that is said is "THANK GOD we just sniped 10,000 actively hacking accounts... now they all have to buy a 2nd account! CHA-CHING $600,000 USD in 1 fell-swoop!" It's all about profits, man. It honestly wouldn't be too hard to patch the exploit that EVERY PUBLIC MAPHACK has been using since it was first discovered. Like I said before, if they spent 1/10th the time actually FIXING the exploits instead of the "ban all hackers" method, they would also become less profitable. Hackers will ALWAYS come back after a ban wave. Why would they want to just cut out an ongoing revenue source from their game? SC2 isn't based on a monthly subscription model, so these ban waves actually should be viewed for what they really are instead of "blizzard being the good-guy"... A ban wave is no more then a way to temporarily boost revenue streams. I could go on much more about this but I'm running late for work and have to scoot, but I'll check back on this topic later and if you have any questions (or still doubt what I've said is true) then I'd be glad to make more VALID points, rather then generic comments like "Blizzard wants to stop hackers because it's the right thing to do, and they are simply looking out for OUR best interest". EDIT: 1 more thing before I go... Warden is 100% NOT a "counter-hack measure"... the ONLY thing Warden does is catch cheaters. You can cheat all you want with the most easily detectable hacks while Warden is actively scanning your computer, and it won't do a damn thing about it (until the next ban wave). Viewing this as an anti-cheating measure is wrong. Warden is very profitable. Think about how many people have had to buy the game more then once because Warden caught them with their pant's down... | ||
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Soft`Soap
Canada865 Posts
On February 20 2012 00:23 Sergio1992 wrote: Wrong. They could eliminate hacking permanently if they would put 1% of the effort they did to make this game unpiratable This statement is so retarded and has absolutely no base Blizzard could put 100% of their workforce towards stopping hacking and somebody will still find a way to hack. The only way to prevent hacking is to know 100% of the ways that somebody can hack your system, which is actually impossible when you think about human progression. No game or software is impenetrable, don't kid yourself. | ||
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nemonic
132 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:30 PR4Y wrote: It's all about profits, man. It honestly wouldn't be too hard to patch the exploit that EVERY PUBLIC MAPHACK has been using since it was first discovered. Like I said before, if they spent 1/10th the time actually FIXING the exploits instead of the "ban all hackers" method, they would also become less profitable. Hackers will ALWAYS come back after a ban wave. Why would they want to just cut out an ongoing revenue source from their game? SC2 isn't based on a monthly subscription model, so these ban waves actually should be viewed for what they really are instead of "blizzard being the good-guy"... A ban wave is no more then a way to temporarily boost revenue streams. That's utterly nonsense. It's not that there is some "vulnerability" in the Starcraft 2 Code that can be "exploited" for the purpose of creating maphacks. The Starcraft 2 process has to store the information about which unit is where (and whether it is visible or not) somewhere and you can always read/modify that information somehow. Also, I don't think this thread was meant for discussing conspiracy theories. | ||
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Ashur
Czech Republic646 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:34 Soft`Soap wrote: This statement is so retarded and has absolutely no base It's actually not retarded. Check HoN protocol and its memory. Currently you cannot rejoin SC2 games when you had disconnect, or you cannot mentor/spectate players. Its because SC2 protocol. If Blizzard would rewrite it, game would be cheat-maker unfriendly. But that won't happen. | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:30 PR4Y wrote: This is where you are ENTIRELY wrong. Blizzard has one of the most amazing development teams of ANY game design company in the world. That is a fact and everyone knows it. Most of these hacks are so simple to develop they use less then 100 lines of code to execute the hack in it's entirety. There are obviously more complex hacks that will detect when warden is active and immediately shut down to prevent detection... but that's just frosting on the cake, unnecessary to the hack (but quite delicious). When blizzard does a massive ban wave of 10,000+ ACTIVELY hacking accounts... do you think the CEO's and higher-up's say THANK GOD we have now provided a safer and more fair environment for our paying customers! NOPE!!! What is more likely that is said is "THANK GOD we just sniped 10,000 actively hacking accounts... now they all have to buy a 2nd account! CHA-CHING $600,000 USD in 1 fell-swoop!" It's all about profits, man. It honestly wouldn't be too hard to patch the exploit that EVERY PUBLIC MAPHACK has been using since it was first discovered. Like I said before, if they spent 1/10th the time actually FIXING the exploits instead of the "ban all hackers" method, they would also become less profitable. Hackers will ALWAYS come back after a ban wave. Why would they want to just cut out an ongoing revenue source from their game? SC2 isn't based on a monthly subscription model, so these ban waves actually should be viewed for what they really are instead of "blizzard being the good-guy"... A ban wave is no more then a way to temporarily boost revenue streams. I could go on much more about this but I'm running late for work and have to scoot, but I'll check back on this topic later and if you have any questions (or still doubt what I've said is true) then I'd be glad to make more VALID points, rather then generic comments like "Blizzard wants to stop hackers because it's the right thing to do, and they are simply looking out for OUR best interest". EDIT: 1 more thing before I go... Warden is 100% NOT a "counter-hack measure"... the ONLY thing Warden does is catch cheaters. You can cheat all you want with the most easily detectable hacks while Warden is actively scanning your computer, and it won't do a damn thing about it (until the next ban wave). Viewing this as an anti-cheating measure is wrong. Warden is very profitable. Think about how many people have had to buy the game more then once because Warden caught them with their pant's down... If that's actually the case and, as you apparently wish people to believe it, then people may lose faith in buying from Blizzard. At the same time, Blizzard can predict this outcome. The next logical thought is that they just want to fool everyone into thinking they're doing their best so people don't lose faith. Even if true, that's highly insulting to the developers, whom you rated as top class. I'd not be happy about making a competitive game only to have my customers open to exploit by hackers and a lie about "doing our best" to stopping them. | ||
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cydial
United States750 Posts
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
On February 19 2012 23:59 dehdar wrote: cut no it's different, they just don't care ( or well, they do but not enough) On February 20 2012 02:34 Soft`Soap wrote: This statement is so retarded and has absolutely no base Blizzard could put 100% of their workforce towards stopping hacking and somebody will still find a way to hack. The only way to prevent hacking is to know 100% of the ways that somebody can hack your system, which is actually impossible when you think about human progression. No game or software is impenetrable, don't kid yourself. sorry If I may sound rude, of course no software is unpenetrable but just look at the fact that multiplayer starcraft 2 still doesn't exist. What if they put the same effort gainst the hack scene? Anyway, if you think I'm wrong,you can just go on (many) hack websites and you will see hackers discussing how blizzard could have (Easily) prevented all the hacks that now are spreading towards the community. Edit: actually after my last statement I'm thinking that if Blizzard doesn't care ( a lot ) for the hacking part , it is just because by banning people they seal a new way of gaining money (people who bought this game will have to rebuy it), a nice well-though initiative by Blizzard Edit 2: seems like PR4Y already set the matter | ||
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Ashur
Czech Republic646 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:47 Sergio1992 wrote: Edit: actually after my last statement I'm thinking that if Blizzard doesn't care ( a lot ) for the hacking part , it is just because by banning people they seal a new way of gaining money (people who bought this game will have to rebuy it), a nice well-though initiative by Blizzard Nothing is easy as it seems. Maphack prevention would cost a lot of manpower to implement, Especially in a moment when game is already released with different network-engine. | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:51 Ashur wrote: Nothing is easy as it seems. Maphack prevention would cost a lot of manpower to implement, Especially in a moment when game is already released with different network-engine. exactly. If they cared a bit about the game , or us in general, they would have just delayed the game once again to fix the issue. But... | ||
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Ashur
Czech Republic646 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:53 Sergio1992 wrote: But... Wait a minute, ain't HOTS dalayed? | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
Wait, are you saying that they are delaying it to give us a better product, instead of delaying it to make it be launched on a period when it will be more profitable on the market? Edit: blizzard was roses and flowers years and years ago. Now all they care about is profit. And if you have proofs that this isn't true... well, only you and people that are fanatics (people that would buy every blizzard's product with closed eyes) believe at them.  | ||
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nemonic
132 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:51 Ashur wrote: Nothing is easy as it seems. Maphack prevention would cost a lot of manpower to implement, Especially in a moment when game is already released with different network-engine. Exactly. The sheer fact that Blizzard couldn't even implement about half of the Battlenet 2.0 features they announced at release says it all. How can you possibly believe that they would put such an enourmous effort into the anti-hack engines, when they can't even finish core aspects of the game itself in time? | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:59 .syd. wrote: Exactly. The sheer fact that Blizzard couldn't even implement about half of the Battlenet 2.0 features they announced at release says it all. How can you possibly believe that they would put such an enourmous effort into the anti-hack engines, when they can't even finish core aspects of the game itself in time? you, sir, said it all. | ||
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Ashur
Czech Republic646 Posts
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
On February 20 2012 03:01 Ashur wrote: Yes Sergio1992 & Sid. Bnet 2.0 fiasco, hack-flawed engine and endlessly delayed product is selfexplanatory, isn't it. sorry if straight facts didn't satisfy you. At least we tried | ||
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bonedriven
258 Posts
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