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Dakota_Fanning
Hungary2335 Posts
On February 20 2012 19:12 Tofugrinder wrote: Really?!? Why hasn't this been a huge topic if correct? Blizzard has no right in knowing what processes I run.. This was huge topic before. And Blizzard has right to do anything you have agreed with. And since this is in the EULA which you acknowledged (else you couldn't play), they can do it. And they do it. | ||
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MayorITC
Korea (South)798 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:30 PR4Y wrote: This is where you are ENTIRELY wrong. It's all about profits, man. It honestly wouldn't be too hard to patch the exploit that EVERY PUBLIC MAPHACK has been using since it was first discovered. And your evidence for either claim is? To support your first statement, please show evidence that banning SC 1, WC3, and Diablo II hackers was profitable for Blizzard, even seven+ years after the games were released. In addition, you also have to provide evidence that the motive behind Blizzard's banwaves is for re-sale purposes. On February 20 2012 02:30 PR4Y wrote: Like I said before, if they spent 1/10th the time actually FIXING the exploits instead of the "ban all hackers" method, they would also become less profitable. Hackers will ALWAYS come back after a ban wave. Why would they want to just cut out an ongoing revenue source from their game? SC2 isn't based on a monthly subscription model, so these ban waves actually should be viewed for what they really are instead of "blizzard being the good-guy"... A ban wave is no more then a way to temporarily boost revenue streams. Your entire argument is purely speculation. I can make equally baseless conjectures in Blizzard's defense. No matter how many hacks you fix, new hacks will arise. So why bother fixing hacks when it's far more efficient to ban hackers and actually deter them from hacking? After all, fixing hacks will only challenge hackers to try even harder. | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
On February 20 2012 19:45 MayorITC wrote: And your evidence for either claim is? To support your first statement, please show evidence that banning SC 1, WC3, and Diablo II hackers was profitable for Blizzard, even seven+ years after the games were released. In addition, you also have to provide evidence that the motive behind Blizzard's banwaves is for re-sale purposes. Your entire argument is purely speculation. I can make equally baseless conjectures in Blizzard's defense. No matter how many hacks you fix, new hacks will arise. So why bother fixing hacks when it's far more efficient to ban hackers and actually deter them from hacking? After all, fixing hacks will only challenge hackers to try even harder. The point your missing is that almost all maphacks for SC2 use the exact same function, which is this http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/triggers/enable-disable-visibility/ It has been untouched since release other than the offset moving around a bit and is painfully easy to exploit, like, a guy learns hello world in C++, 4 days later they can write a hack to exploit this easily. There are a few other hacks but for the most part fixing this would stop 90%+ of sc2 maphacks. However blizzard choose not to. The majority of things like blink hacks etc also heavily exploit the various commands listed here http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/triggers/category-selection/ http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/triggers/category-unit/ Basically blizzard are giving hackers all the tools they need on a platter and doing 0 about protecting them. | ||
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dehdar
170 Posts
On February 20 2012 20:10 Iksf wrote: The point your missing is that almost all maphacks for SC2 use the exact same function, which is this http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/triggers/enable-disable-visibility/ It has been untouched since release other than the offset moving around a bit and is painfully easy to exploit, like, a guy learns hello world in C++, 4 days later they can write a hack to exploit this easily. There are a few other hacks but for the most part fixing this would stop 90%+ of sc2 maphacks. However blizzard choose not to. The majority of things like blink hacks etc also heavily exploit the various commands listed here http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/triggers/category-selection/ http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/triggers/category-unit/ Basically blizzard are giving hackers all the tools they need on a platter and doing 0 about protecting them. Blizzard don't have basement programmers who make hot fixes on production code. They need to prioritize this task, estimate it, redesign it, review the redesign, recode it, review the code, make test cases, test it, deploy the hot fix to their patch servers, etc. etc. Ohh I forgot to mention documentation, release notes... Basically they need to go through all the things that hackers would have to go through if they were being micromanaged  So although it's easy for you, for me and anyone else whose comfortable coding in C++ to find ressources online and compile our own hacks, it's not a simple task for Blizzard to redesign their game to counter hacks, not only isn't it simple, it's expensive and it won't permanently fix any issues. | ||
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iloveav
Poland1475 Posts
On February 20 2012 19:21 Dakota_Fanning wrote: This was huge topic before. And Blizzard has right to do anything you have agreed with. And since this is in the EULA which you acknowledged (else you couldn't play), they can do it. And they do it. Actually its a grey area: You cant read the licence agreement before you buy the game, and once you bought it you cant return it to a store (at least in spain its a 100% no-go). I guess you could find those if you search online, but thats like the "small letters" in a contract, of the fast sliding letters in a tv add. Basicly you agree to the terms before you get to read them :D. | ||
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iloveav
Poland1475 Posts
On February 20 2012 20:42 dehdar wrote: Blizzard don't have basement programmers who make hot fixes on production code. They need to prioritize this task, estimate it, redesign it, review the redesign, recode it, review the code, make test cases, test it, deploy the hot fix to their patch servers, etc. etc. Ohh I forgot to mention documentation, release notes... Basically they need to go through all the things that hackers would have to go through if they were being micromanaged So although it's easy for you, for me and anyone else whose comfortable coding in C++ to find ressources online and compile our own hacks, it's not a simple task for Blizzard to redesign their game to counter hacks, not only isn't it simple, it's expensive and it won't permanently fix any issues. You gotta be kidding. They dont solve the problem because they dont see/care about it. Have you heard of hacks in games like WoW? or Maybe Guild Wars? Sure, there might be some, but they last 2-3 days. Warden is a great way to get information about a users PC after all. See all you have running is usefull indeed. Thats about it. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On February 20 2012 21:14 iloveav wrote: Actually its a grey area: You cant read the licence agreement before you buy the game, and once you bought it you cant return it to a store (at least in spain its a 100% no-go). I guess you could find those if you search online, but thats like the "small letters" in a contract, of the fast sliding letters in a tv add. Basicly you agree to the terms before you get to read them :D. Warning: the below assumes you have a computer which can access the internet and that you know how to navigate the internet and that you know the title of the game whos EULA you are searching for. step 1: open your favourite web-browser step 2: go to "www.google.com" step 3: search for "<gamename> EULA", where <gamename> is to be substituted by the name of the game. step 4: click on top result congratulations, you did not need to buy the game to read the EULA of the appropriate game. if you can read this post that means you have access to a computer as well as access to internet and thus "I did not have access to the EULA until it was too late" is not an acceptable excuse. | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
On February 20 2012 21:32 Roblin wrote: Warning: the below assumes you have a computer which can access the internet and that you know how to navigate the internet and that you know the title of the game whos EULA you are searching for. step 1: open your favourite web-browser step 2: go to "www.google.com" step 3: search for "<gamename> EULA", where <gamename> is to be substituted by the name of the game. step 4: click on top result congratulations, you did not need to buy the game to read the EULA of the appropriate game. if you can read this post that means you have access to a computer as well as access to internet and thus "I did not have access to the EULA until it was too late" is not an acceptable excuse. And? How exactly did the seller show it to you if you find it on your own? Because by law, thats what he have to do BEFORE the deal. And who say that the eula i find is the eula they will come up with. Why write any contract? People could just google random contracts and take the one they like. You can not change a deal after the deal is done. And by accepting the money and the product the deal is done. So eula by installation is like 99% of this "agree here". Just an click and nothing worth. Why do they inculde it then? because many people dont know.Most contracts are not legal and the once who write it know that. But most of the time you dont end up by curt so you can foul people with less intelligence. BTW: Even when the eula was shown and signed before the contract, this does not mean they can write in it what they want. Many people think if you sign something you have to follow it but thats only the case if the conctract is not against the law. I could agree that i dont have any guarantee. Still i have it by law. | ||
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dehdar
170 Posts
Nope. Edit: Let me elaborate. Every single software company has a developing process. Those that don't usually consist of 2 teenage HTML coders in their early teenage years... Nobody "last minute - hot fixes" production code unless the main "BOSS" is threatning to unleash the dogs. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On February 20 2012 21:40 skeldark wrote: And? How exactly did the seller show it to you if you find it on your own? Because by law, thats what he have to do BEFORE the deal. And who say that the eula i find is the eula they will come up with. Why write any contract? People could just google random contracts and take the one they like. You logic is .... normaly not worth my time to awnser it... You can not change a deal after the deal is done. And by accepting the money and the product the deal is done. So eula by installation is like 99% of this "agree here". Just an click and nothing worth. Why do they inculde it then? because many people dont know.Most contracts are not legal and the once who write it know that. But most of the time you dont end up by curt so you can foul people with less intelligence. The seller has no obligation to have you read the EULA before you use the merchandise, he is only the middle hand much like a messenger. Companies which produce a product does however have an obligation to give you the knowledge required to not screw up while handling the product, and if they do not, they can be sued for it. the following examples are all rumors and I have not confirmed them to be either true or false, but technically speaking they can be true since none of the examples contradict the law of the time. someone buys a cover which is used to protect the front windshield from snow, the next morning that individual is in a car accident, later he/she sues the company who made the windshield cover since it never said that you should not drive the car while the cover is still on, he/she wins and since that day all such windshield covers have a note which tells you not to drive while its still on the front windshield. once upon a time someone buys a microwave,aftr months of using it correctly, he/she thinks that his/her dog seems to be very cold, and decides to put the dog in the microwave to warm it up, obviously the dog dies, later he/she sues the microwave company because it never said you shouldn't put live animals in it, since then the microwaves have several notes either on the microwave itself or in an instruction booklet which comes with it which tells you a number of things which should not be put into the microwave. this is true for the software companies as well, the difference is that software companies use EULAs, the role that these EULA fulfill is to tell you what you can expect to happen legally if you do something regarding the product. if you do not agree with the EULA then you do not have the right to use the software because the company does not have any gaurantee that you will use it correctly. my point is that everything legally asked by every party is indeed fulfilled: the seller sells merchandise, he has no obligation to make sure that you use the merchandise correctly, for such troubles you are always directed to the company which produced the product. this is done by selling the product in their stores. the producer must give you the opportunity to learn about all consequences which can happen if you use the product incorrectly, if they do, they have no obligation to make sure that you do use it correctly, and if you use it in a way which you have been told you should not, they are legally allowed to do the appropriate action described by them. this is done by EULAs which can be found in several locations, such as the internet and at least in the case of SC2 in the instruction booklet (with the EULA of the time of writing the book), as well as in a message which you must agree with before being able to use the product. there is absolutely nothing wrong going on around here, the seller gives you opportunities (buying the game), which you can choose to ignore, the product gives you opportunities (installing the game), which you can choose to ignore. p.s. it is very clearly stated in the SC2 EULA that it can be changed by blizzard at any time for any reason, however, if they do change it, every consumer must agree to the new one before being allowed to play the game. oh, and also heres some parts of the EULA you might be interested in, the below in quotation marks (" ") is copy/pasted: "THIS SOFTWARE IS LICENSED, NOT SOLD. BY INSTALLING, COPYING OR OTHERWISE USING THE GAME (DEFINED BELOW), YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU ARE NOT PERMITTED TO INSTALL, COPY OR USE THE GAME. IF YOU REJECT THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER YOUR PURCHASE, YOU MAY CALL (800) 757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE." "Changes to the Agreement and/or Game. Blizzard may replace this Agreement with new versions (each a “New EULA”) over time as the Game and the law evolve. This Agreement will terminate immediately upon the introduction of a New EULA, and you will be given an opportunity to review and accept the New EULA. If you accept the New EULA, and if the Account registered to you remains in good standing, you will be able to continue playing the Game subject to the terms of the New EULA. If you decline to accept the New EULA, or if you cannot comply with the terms of the New EULA for any reason, you will no longer be permitted to play the Game. New EULAs will not be applied retroactively. Blizzard may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Game at any time. Blizzard may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Game without notice or liability." source: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/sc2eula.html in english: these are things you have agreed upon, when you bought the game you had a 30-day time period where you could choose to reject your purchase, this is not related to the purchase at a store, but instead you contact blizzard whom probably invalidates the key-code in your product and sends you the money. if you do not reject this, then you instead agree that they may change the EULA however much they want and you will not get a refund after the 30 daytime period. | ||
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nemonic
132 Posts
On February 20 2012 20:10 Iksf wrote: The point your missing is that almost all maphacks for SC2 use the exact same function, which is this http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/triggers/enable-disable-visibility/ It has been untouched since release other than the offset moving around a bit and is painfully easy to exploit, like, a guy learns hello world in C++, 4 days later they can write a hack to exploit this easily. There are a few other hacks but for the most part fixing this would stop 90%+ of sc2 maphacks. However blizzard choose not to. The majority of things like blink hacks etc also heavily exploit the various commands listed here http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/triggers/category-selection/ http://www.sc2mapster.com/wiki/galaxy/triggers/category-unit/ Basically blizzard are giving hackers all the tools they need on a platter and doing 0 about protecting them. There is simply no way how you can "fix" this. It is virtually impossible to isolate the code and data of the SC2 process from modification from external programs. If they changed the currently exploited function then 90% of the SC2 maphacks would indeed not work anymore ... for approximately one week when somebody finds out a new way to achieve the same thing. You will never get rid of things like maphacks unless you invest an absurd amount of effort in doing. And even then somebody will break your code. I'm happy with the fact Blizzard doesnt not waste its resources tilting at windmills. | ||
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naut1c
Austria100 Posts
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
player known as SpaceJamZ... made it painfully obvious and then he was like "add me and see if I get banned baddie" "eZ gg no re" and blaaaaaaa bla bla | ||
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Pusekatten
Norway234 Posts
 Well anyway, as this is a thread about hacks, I was wondering if bots = hacks? and if they are detected the in the same way? | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
Just because warden scans your computer doesn't make it perfect. Warden is an anti-hack tool blizzard has been using for years, and guess what? It's not successful. It still catches the idiots, but over the past decade it has been proven time and time again that you can get around warden (quite easily in fact). Hell, even in WoW when warden was supposed to be the strictest/catch anything etc you still had thousands upon thousands of players botting using Glider without warden having a clue. Hell, I did (fuck leveling in WoW... one of the most frustrating wastes of time in a video game ever), and I never got caught despite just using a program I downloaded off the internet and configuring it rather than programming my own bot/hack or something. tl;dr: Warden isn't perfect, hackers will ALWAYS get around it. This thread has no purpose and is misguided in the first place | ||
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Mr. Black
United States470 Posts
On February 21 2012 02:34 -orb- wrote: What's the purpose of this thread? Just because warden scans your computer doesn't make it perfect. Warden is an anti-hack tool blizzard has been using for years, and guess what? It's not successful. It still catches the idiots, but over the past decade it has been proven time and time again that you can get around warden (quite easily in fact). Hell, even in WoW when warden was supposed to be the strictest/catch anything etc you still had thousands upon thousands of players botting using Glider without warden having a clue. Hell, I did (fuck leveling in WoW... one of the most frustrating wastes of time in a video game ever), and I never got caught despite just using a program I downloaded off the internet and configuring it rather than programming my own bot/hack or something. tl;dr: Warden isn't perfect, hackers will ALWAYS get around it. This thread has no purpose and is misguided in the first place I think the purpose is to convince hackers not to hack, a noble but quixotic task. Just because you think leveling in WoW is a frustrating waste of time, doesn't mean it's ok to hack to automate it. By that logic, isn't getting good at SC2 a "frustrating waste of time"? Don't hack in any game. If a game has parts that are a "frustrating waste of time," then play a better game. | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On February 21 2012 02:34 -orb- wrote: What's the purpose of this thread? Just because warden scans your computer doesn't make it perfect. Warden is an anti-hack tool blizzard has been using for years, and guess what? It's not successful. It still catches the idiots, but over the past decade it has been proven time and time again that you can get around warden (quite easily in fact). Hell, even in WoW when warden was supposed to be the strictest/catch anything etc you still had thousands upon thousands of players botting using Glider without warden having a clue. Hell, I did (fuck leveling in WoW... one of the most frustrating wastes of time in a video game ever), and I never got caught despite just using a program I downloaded off the internet and configuring it rather than programming my own bot/hack or something. tl;dr: Warden isn't perfect, hackers will ALWAYS get around it. This thread has no purpose and is misguided in the first place You know the difference between a bot and a hack, right? Not to mention how many glider-user were in fact banned (maybe try and check their forum). But i agree to your TL;DR. Warden isnt perfect (far from it), but it gets the job done good enough. Hackers will always get around everything they would throw at us, so.. yeah. Live with it or stop playing, these are actually the only two options. | ||
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dehdar
170 Posts
On February 21 2012 02:32 Pusekatten wrote: Nice OP you have made, I read the one where you said blizzard used VAC, and was gonna comment that they used Warden instead so you could change it, but the thread got closed while I was writing Well anyway, as this is a thread about hacks, I was wondering if bots = hacks? and if they are detected the in the same way? Depends on how you develop your bot. I spent 2-3 weeks developing a bot for Aion, which was basically just a statemachine, which changed according to pixelchanges on the screen. By purely basing all logic in my bot on pixelsearching I knew for a fact it would be undetectable. Whenever a player would whisper me or an admin, the font colour would be "unique" and "Welcome to the jungle" would play with max volume, so I could rush to my computer and answer Later I learned others had implemented the same, but were using SMS gateways to notify the player instead of playing music :D I implemented a lot of small cool features and kept tweaking my bot to the point, where I could just leave it for hours without worrying about it being stuck or unable to recover from dying. I finally realised paying for a game that I'm letting a bot play might be an indication that I'm - excuse my language - piss bored with the game. So I quit. I also realised that developing the bot was a lot more fun than actually playing | ||
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Sergio1992
Italy522 Posts
On February 20 2012 19:45 MayorITC wrote: Your entire argument is purely speculation. I can make equally baseless conjectures in Blizzard's defense. No matter how many hacks you fix, new hacks will arise. So why bother fixing hacks when it's far more efficient to ban hackers and actually deter them from hacking? After all, fixing hacks will only challenge hackers to try even harder. that's a bad argument. Why fixing windows' protection bugs if there are firewalls\antivirus that helps the user? | ||
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Pusekatten
Norway234 Posts
On February 21 2012 03:40 dehdar wrote: Depends on how you develop your bot. I spent 2-3 weeks developing a bot for Aion, which was basically just a statemachine, which changed according to pixelchanges on the screen. By purely basing all logic in my bot on pixelsearching I knew for a fact it would be undetectable. Whenever a player would whisper me or an admin, the font colour would be "unique" and "Welcome to the jungle" would play with max volume, so I could rush to my computer and answer Later I learned others had implemented the same, but were using SMS gateways to notify the player instead of playing music :D I implemented a lot of small cool features and kept tweaking my bot to the point, where I could just leave it for hours without worrying about it being stuck or unable to recover from dying. I finally realised paying for a game that I'm letting a bot play might be an indication that I'm - excuse my language - piss bored with the game. So I quit. I also realised that developing the bot was a lot more fun than actually playing wow, it sounds complicated, at least for someone like me who doesn't have any programming experience. I did however use a bot on wow, for farming herbs and mining like most do, but I also quit when I figured out I payed for logging inn a raiding once or twice a week, wasn't really worth it anymore. Was just wondering how much programming experience do you need to make something like the bot program you made? Sounds like a fun experience | ||
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