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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
Boots+3hp > Revolver > Boots2 > Rylai's > Deathcap > Gunblade > Zhonya's > Void Staff What would you recommend I build instead of Rylai's in this setup? I'm thinking that without the slow from Rylai's then I should finish my Gunblade before Deathcap. I am also considering building either Guardian Angel or a Banshee's Vail instead of Zhonya's. What are anyones thoughts? | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On January 11 2012 09:34 Ghost-z wrote: @Shiv - I like your thoughts on Rylai's and I have had good success with this AP build: Boots+3hp > Revolver > Boots2 > Rylai's > Deathcap > Gunblade > Zhonya's > Void Staff What would you recommend I build instead of Rylai's in this setup? I'm thinking that without the slow from Rylai's then I should finish my Gunblade before Deathcap. I am also considering building either Guardian Angel or a Banshee's Vail instead of Zhonya's. What are anyones thoughts? I'm pretty much copying and quoting scarra, the most accomplished Kat player here: Sorc Shoes -> Gunblade -> if you feel like you need a defensive item early, defensive item -> Deathcap -> Guardian Angel -> Void -> Lich Bane. So I'd say get GA. It provides so much more in a teamfight than Rylai's does and has turned around teamfights and even whole games for me. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
 , sadly enough I'll admit this... Shiv's build, which is a copy of Scarra, goes Sorc Shoes->gunblade->(defensive item)->deathcap->void staff->lich bane. Mine is a bit more varied. Sorc Shoes-> WotA-> BT-> BT->Void Staff Now, for Shiv's opinion, he prefers gunblade + deathcap. Let's analyze what these items give, Gunblade costs 3625 40 AD 70AP 15% life steal 20%spell vamp 300 magic damage + 3 second slow. Death Cap 3600 offer 140AP+30%. So after deathcap, you'll have 273 AP, and 40 AD, 15% life steal, 20% spell vamp, +300 damage slow, for 7225. That means for Kat's abilities will do this amount of "bonus" damage q, will do a bonus damage of 95.5+32 damage (127.5) to PRIMARY target. e, will do a bonus damage of 204 to single target r, will do a bonus damage of (full damage of 10 dagger, single target) 200+682.5 damage (882.5) Now for an equivalent cost, you can have. WotA, Blood Thirster, BF sword, vampic scepter, total cost of 7200 your end stats will be. 80AP 25% spellvamp (60-100 AD from BT, we'll average 80)+45=125AD (average out stacks, 20% from BT) + 12%=32% lifesteal. q, will do a bonus damage of 128 to PRIMARY target. e, will do a bonus damage of 60 to single target. r, will do a bonus damage of (full damage of 10 dagger, single target) 625+200 (825) However if BT is at full stacks... q, 144 e, 60 still r, 925 So, full stacked BT is better, but also a lot harder to reach. But with my build the 2nd BT is only 900 left from completing, thus offering another BT, as we can see can scale power wise much better than another blasting wand. While an aditional 900 to Scarra's build offers a blasting wand which is only 40AP+.3x40= 52 AP... In my honest opinion I think AD Kat is just as viable as AP Kat, and that each build has a different power peak point, but also remember that with AD Kat, you will also end up building a void staff. Here are some intangibles. WotA gives teammates spell vamp, and 30 AP. While Hextech gunblade gives you a nice single target slow. With physical damage, you are always using it, with AP you only use it when you use spells, for example auto attacks hit a lot harder, that means farming becomes a lot easier, and the increased dagger damage is extremely important, because if we count the bounces, the damage for AD goes up quite a bit on a fully stacked BT. 5 person bounce x 144=720 5 person bounce x 127.5=637.5 that's a 80pt damage output difference! Also, the decieving part about the lack of shunpo damage with AD Kat, is that it doesn't include the auto attack right after the shunpo, which can easily deal another 145AD damage... Hopefully my math is all correct, and you guys can sort of see the reasons why i like to go AD kat, over full AP kat | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On January 11 2012 10:26 wei2coolman wrote: Okay I did some math, and I think Shiv is right, and I'm wrong , sadly enough I'll admit this... It takes a real man to admit he's wrong! I tried out all builds you can imagine on Kat and I found this one the most suitable for my play style and probably the best all-around balanced build. On January 11 2012 10:26 wei2coolman wrote: Hopefully my math is all correct, and you guys can sort of see the reasons why i like to go AD kat, over full AP kat I still don't really get it, as you might aswell get a WotA before your Deathcap and pretty much have all the upsides of your build, BUT: as long as you are having fun and it works for you and the way you play Kat, why not? It might not be the best build around, but I'm sure you can make it work. Again, I was really not trying to be a dick, just showing a fellow Kat player a different way to play her. P.S. One reason I think AD Kat is weaker is that people tend to build a lot more armor than MR in most games and I never find the time autoattacking. Always Shunpo, never not Shunpo. Edit: what happened to the Rylai's in your build? Edit 2: some things to think about: BB rarely if ever actually gets 5 bounces, if you ever die, you just lost 80 AD, and I think you forgot to calculate the 300 damage from Gunblade on your final numbers. Still not saying AD is bad, but AP is a lot less reliant on staying alive and has harder burst potential, which, after all, is what you need the most in order to trigger your passive. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 11 2012 10:37 Shiv. wrote: It takes a real man to admit he's wrong! I tried out all builds you can imagine on Kat and I found this one the most suitable for my play style and probably the best all-around balanced build. I still don't really get it, as you might aswell get a WotA before your Deathcap and pretty much have all the upsides of your build, BUT: as long as you are having fun and it works for you and the way you play Kat, why not? It might not be the best build around, but I'm sure you can make it work. Again, I was really not trying to be a dick, just showing a fellow Kat player a different way to play her. P.S. One reason I think AD Kat is weaker is that people tend to build a lot more armor than MR in most games and I never find the time autoattacking. Always Shunpo, never not Shunpo. Edit: what happened to the Rylai's in your build? Edit 2: some things to think about: BB rarely if ever actually gets 5 bounces, if you ever die, you just lost 80 AD, and I think you forgot to calculate the 300 damage from Gunblade on your final numbers. Still not saying AD is bad, but AP is a lot less reliant on staying alive and has harder burst potential, which, after all, is what you need the most in order to trigger your passive. rylais was always a "do i need it item?" and after playing more and more games, I just preferred the bruteforce increase of AD WAY WAY WAY over the suriviability of Rylais. Yeah, I definitely agree that AP is better overall, but I definitely see AD as a pretty viable option as well, especially when it comes to later stages of midgame, but AP probably scales better into lategame. Oh also never really counted the whole Armor thing, good point. Also i'm a terrible last hitter, so AD kat makes farming soooo much easier for me. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 11 2012 10:54 Shiv. wrote: AD is probably viable, too, yeah! It is a lot better for most 1v1 scenarios I suppose, so if you find yourself going AD, might want to try to look for some people to pick off when they're alone. Yeah, well with AD I tend to clear my creep wave pretty fast, and can usually roam to top or bottom for a quick gank, then come back in time for the next wave. But I think it is definitely a stylistic choice on how one plays kat. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 11 2012 11:18 Ghost-z wrote: Wait why would you build WotA instead of Gunblade if you are going for AD Kat? Gunblade is expensive, it delays BT too long. The 1500 difference in cost is pretty much 1 bf sword. Also, I often solo top Kat, so WotA always benefits the AP mid. And I can often convince the othe ap mid to get another will of ancients, and dual wota is lulzies. On January 11 2012 11:16 Ghost-z wrote: Whether you're building AD or AP Kat all of your abilities deal magic damage. The only time armor would be counted is on auto attacks. Yes, that's why we were talking about armor for the auto attacks, because directly after shunpo there is a quick auto attack right after. So the 145 damage I talked about is far more mitigated compared to a larger AP shunpo value. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
I usually build AP Kat and max Shunpo first since it scales the best with AP or do you max BB first on AP Kat? Do you max BB first when playing AD? I can't imaging you wouldn't since shunpo gets no benefit from AD. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
I mean eventually you'll shunpo for your ulti to attempt the kill, but if you level shunpo first you're basically giving up harassing them with any level of safety. Even without the jungle ganks you can't shunpo harass safely pre-5 because you don't have the threat of your ultimate to stop them from wailing on you. Instead just use shunpo early on as a mobility tool to escape ganks, dodge skill shots, help your jungler gank, or when you want to kill. | ||
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novalight
United States20 Posts
i really don't recommend playing ad kat at all but if you're set on it, go for it edit: i should also mention that bb first gives you kill potential in certain matchups as early as level 3/4. bb harrass can be very very strong and can let you start winning your lane even without ult, which is very important in letting you roam asap | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
QEQWQR into Max R>Q>E>W | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
I am leaning towards running 9/21/0 to help with kats squishyness to make her not so squishy whilst taking the mpen in offense. How valid is this compared to running 21/9/0 and 21/0/9? http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=1-3-0-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=0-2-3-0-4-0-0-1-3-0-0-3-0-1-3-1&tree3=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&v=2 http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=1-3-0-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1&tree2=0-1-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&v=2 http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=1-3-0-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-3-0-0-4-0-4-1&tree2=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0&v=2 | ||
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petered
United States1817 Posts
True the other trees probably scale better, but to me kat is all about not getting pushed out of lane early then racking up kills mid game. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=1-3-0-0-0-4-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=1-3-0-0-4-0-0-0-3-1-0-4-1-0-3-1&v=2 The more I think about it the more I like the support tree for Kat. It also gives you the option of putting the 5 points in extra experience to gain a level advantage over your opponent or you could put those points in gold/10 to try to gain an item advantage. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 11 2012 12:23 Ghost-z wrote: One last question I have about Kat is which skill do you max first for AD and AP? I usually build AP Kat and max Shunpo first since it scales the best with AP or do you max BB first on AP Kat? Do you max BB first when playing AD? I can't imaging you wouldn't since shunpo gets no benefit from AD. Ap or AD, should always be maxing dagger throw, just merely for poke + farming reasons. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On January 11 2012 13:44 petered wrote: A lot of people seem to hate utility tree but I think 9/0/21 is the best on kat. mostly for the 10% cdr, 3% spell vamp and 2% movespeed which I think help kat during laning a whole lot more than offensive of defensive tree. True the other trees probably scale better, but to me kat is all about not getting pushed out of lane early then racking up kills mid game. Utility does nothing for kat. If you're going for the 3% spell vamp, I can tell you it does absolutely nothing for Kat. 9/21/0 or 21/9/0 is your best bet. I've ran both. If I feel like really really trying I run 30/0/0 kat, just for pure glasscannon AD kat. But, usually I don't like to try, so I run 9/21/0, it's a lot more forgiving in terms of making mistakes. | ||
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ihasaKAROT
Netherlands4730 Posts
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