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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On March 09 2012 06:03 BlasiuS wrote: Ok I have been convinced that maxing CDR on kat isn't good  I have a question about her ult: Can you use Hextech Gunblade's ability while in the middle of using her ult? Yes, but you'll break the ult if they're out of range when you try. | ||
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MindBreaker
United States574 Posts
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On March 09 2012 06:44 barbsq wrote: not getting rylais on kat is simply wrong imo. Scarra and anyone I've ever seen playing her successfully at a high level would like a word with you. Basic reasoning: you spend 3k gold on 80 AP and then wonder why your assassin isn't assassinating anyone. I've linked the reddit champion of the day discussion about her, where scarra explains a lot of things in depth. On March 09 2012 13:36 MindBreaker wrote: Am I the only person that goes AD Kat? Nah, wei2coolman does it, lol. So yeah, pretty much. AD Kat is too squishy to stick to a target, you waste a precious 0.7 AP ratio on your Shunpo. Multiple times in a teamfight, that is. | ||
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barbsq
United States5348 Posts
On March 09 2012 18:11 Shiv. wrote: Scarra and anyone I've ever seen playing her successfully at a high level would like a word with you. Basic reasoning: you spend 3k gold on 80 AP and then wonder why your assassin isn't assassinating anyone. I've linked the reddit champion of the day discussion about her, where scarra explains a lot of things in depth. Nah, wei2coolman does it, lol. So yeah, pretty much. AD Kat is too squishy to stick to a target, you waste a precious 0.7 AP ratio on your Shunpo. Multiple times in a teamfight, that is. actually, yeah. This is a (apparantly wrong) perception that i've had for the longest time and never really updated, still stuck in wrawra's kat and kat builds he posted like a year ago. Read thru a lot of scarra's comments on that thread and they make a lot of sense, plus there's a lot of overlap with gextech hunblade and rylais as well, which is something I didn't really consider since the last time i played kat on SR, AP and AD ratios didn't mix in her ult  .this is what i get for sticking my head in places i'm not really qualified to say anything, haha. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On March 12 2012 09:11 wei2coolman wrote: Both AD and AP are good. My feeling is AD scales better into midgame, AP does better in lategame. AD costs too much and doesn't scale with E so it is the inferior choice | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 12 2012 10:01 Frolossus wrote: AD costs too much and doesn't scale with E so it is the inferior choice http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167141¤tpage=5#83 Read before commenting. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On March 12 2012 10:19 wei2coolman wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167141¤tpage=5#83 Read before commenting. "if BT is at fulls stacks" when does this ever happen on a melee champion? the problem with that math is that he assumes that AD and AP are equal per gold which they obviously aren't AP is far cheaper per point than AD death cap also makes all of your AP scale better into the game where for AD you have to waste gold on void staff/will or whatever to get stats you need scarra also said that the reason to rush gunblade is for the most efficient damage output, bloodthirsters are not efficient | ||
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MindBreaker
United States574 Posts
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 12 2012 10:45 Frolossus wrote: "if BT is at fulls stacks" when does this ever happen on a melee champion? the problem with that math is that he assumes that AD and AP are equal per gold which they obviously aren't AP is far cheaper per point than AD death cap also makes all of your AP scale better into the game where for AD you have to waste gold on void staff/will or whatever to get stats you need scarra also said that the reason to rush gunblade is for the most efficient damage output, bloodthirsters are not efficient Did you not read the gold costs of my math? AD with equivalent gold costs into mid games does more damage than AP. EDIT: with the 900 extra = another BT, vs 1 more blasting wand | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On March 12 2012 10:45 Frolossus wrote: "if BT is at fulls stacks" when does this ever happen on a melee champion? the problem with that math is that he assumes that AD and AP are equal per gold which they obviously aren't AP is far cheaper per point than AD death cap also makes all of your AP scale better into the game where for AD you have to waste gold on void staff/will or whatever to get stats you need scarra also said that the reason to rush gunblade is for the most efficient damage output, bloodthirsters are not efficient You're still using every single stat on the void staff regardless of whether you choose AD or AP. You just aren't getting +30% AP on your voidstaff from the deathcap. E effectively benefits from AD, because kat will auto her target pretty much instantly after shunpo, right? So you auto at LEAST once. By the way, it looks like you ignored the math for 50% stacks BT, which really isn't all that bad, and isn't "never going to happen" like you claim fullstack BT will. There's kindof a lot of intangibles with the AD style that don't math out well. The ability to pop a wave with Q (so you can roam, etc) is one, the loss of the slow on Gunblade is another, the better siege-poking with Q (more than just your primary target get greatly increased damage with WQ) Why is CDR so hated on katarina? If you could have 40% CDR from items that dont feel gross on her, your ult comes off CD instantly after 2 kills or assists, opening the potential for essentially back-to-back ulting. I could see DFG working ok on her. Sure, you "waste" the mana regen, but does anyone [besides veigar] who builds DFG REALLY give a shit about that mana regen anyway? Nobody puts value on that, the value on DFG is in the nuke, the CDR, and the reasonable amount of AP. And DFG could help kat burst her way to that oh-so-important FIRST KILL of a teamfight so she can make use of her passive. If only her passive lowered the DFG cooldown... | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 12 2012 17:08 sylverfyre wrote: You're still using every single stat on the void staff regardless of whether you choose AD or AP. You just aren't getting +30% AP on your voidstaff from the deathcap. E effectively benefits from AD, because kat will auto her target pretty much instantly after shunpo, right? So you auto at LEAST once. By the way, it looks like you ignored the math for 50% stacks BT, which really isn't all that bad, and isn't "never going to happen" like you claim fullstack BT will. There's kindof a lot of intangibles with the AD style that don't math out well. The ability to pop a wave with Q (so you can roam, etc) is one, the loss of the slow on Gunblade is another, the better siege-poking with Q (more than just your primary target get greatly increased damage with WQ) Why is CDR so hated on katarina? If you could have 40% CDR from items that dont feel gross on her, your ult comes off CD instantly after 2 kills or assists, opening the potential for essentially back-to-back ulting. I could see DFG working ok on her. Sure, you "waste" the mana regen, but does anyone [besides veigar] who builds DFG REALLY give a shit about that mana regen anyway? Nobody puts value on that, the value on DFG is in the nuke, the CDR, and the reasonable amount of AP. And DFG could help kat burst her way to that oh-so-important FIRST KILL of a teamfight so she can make use of her passive. If only her passive lowered the DFG cooldown... In terms of CDR, it's mostly because CD itemizing things aren't that great, sure you can pick up CDR through masteries (4%), and then if you get the occaisional blue (another 20%), then blue elixer (34%), isn't half bad, but to spend 2k-3k gold for items on CDR, her damage output is dramatically weaker, than the CDR used. On the voidstaff issue, it has to do with peak power curves. There's no doubt AP is stronger late game compared to AD kat, but AD kat hits certain power points that AP kat can't. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On March 12 2012 17:19 wei2coolman wrote: On the voidstaff issue, it has to do with peak power curves. There's no doubt AP is stronger late game compared to AD kat, but AD kat hits certain power points that AP kat can't. Concerning CDR, I'd suggest going back a page and check out my opinion on it. About that power curve: I'd really like to see more math. 7200 gold (the amount you used in your calculations) is already a good chunk of gold spent, and considering how AD Kat has less burst potential (not saying she deals less damage), it's probably going to be harder to Shunpo out of a teamfight as AD Kat compared to AP Kat. Also, I'd be genuinely interested in numbers of a more realistic scenario, because post 1200 Elo, I don't see people clumping up if there's a Kat on the enemy team, making 5-man-BBs a rare occasion. That being said, I tried it, it's fun in normals, I still like AP better at almost any given point in the game. That's my personal feeling and I have no numbers to back it up, it just doesn't work as well for me. I'd also never play it if I'm in tryhard mode, but then again, nowadays I prolly wouldn't pick Kat in the first place if that was the case. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On March 12 2012 16:31 wei2coolman wrote: Did you not read the gold costs of my math? AD with equivalent gold costs into mid games does more damage than AP. EDIT: with the 900 extra = another BT, vs 1 more blasting wand so you are trying to argue that a bloodthirster is a better midgame item than a gunblade? it depends on where your midgame starts because AD kat peaks at the first bf sword vs a revolver then falls off from there | ||
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susySquark
United States1692 Posts
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Celestial
United States652 Posts
On March 09 2012 13:36 MindBreaker wrote: Am I the only person that goes AD Kat? A friend and I have ran AD Kat the whole time we've played her basically now for at least a year or two. The results are generally the same anyway. You max Q before E in most instances so generally with good play and positioning you can kill Kat's intended kill targets and move on. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Blind
United States2528 Posts
On April 02 2012 14:35 Cloud wrote: Does kat ult do damage while zhonyas is active? No. If I understand it correctly, Kat's ult is a channel, so you can cancel it early. One way to cancel it early is to by using zhonyas. Same thing for Nunu's ult. Morgana's ult is not a channel which is why you can use zhonyas while tethering enemies. | ||
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Cixah
United States11285 Posts
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On April 02 2012 15:29 Cixah wrote: Kat's ult will stop once you hit the ZHG. I don't think rylai's is a must have, but I do think the Giant's belt is. The issue is that there really isn't much else to build it into unless you want to get a Warmogs which is even more expensive. Gunblade is a better slow mostly because as an assassin you can actually kill people that try to run from you, but for actually wanting to team fight (idk why you are kat) you'd want the Rylai's. Meh. I'd much, much rather get Abyssal, Zhonya's, GA and be a lot tankier and have items I actually NEED. | ||
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