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For me, I used to (past tense: I don't have the time anymore, really) play in tournaments regularly because of the thrill of it. It was fun to sit across the table from someone with, depending on the tournament, dozens to hundreds of people milling around you all of them also passionate about chess.
From the crushing disappointment of losing to an 8-year old to the excitement of actually winning a match against a player you have nothing but the greatest respect for to technically losing a game because your hands were shaking so much as the clock ticked down that you knocked over your king in a bishop-3 separated pawns vs rook-pawn endgame those years were amazing and I'll never forget them.
(incidentally, my opponent was gracious enough to insist that it was clearly a mistake from nerves and let me continue).
I absolutely agree with what you've said, but sometimes it's hard to give things so much of yourself without burning out. For my friend, lighting design is a passion and something that he thinks about constantly. Similarly chess, and when he's playing chess, he's right there doing it.
Not everyone likes to live that way, and that's their prerogative (so long as it doesn't hurt other people), but yes.
Still, I'd encourage a tournament or two. Not for the ratings or the accord that people would artificially give you, but because tournaments themselves are just wonderful experiences.
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He won't do Nd5 or we will just drop into c4 and defending his possible check from a weakside bishop
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On September 02 2011 07:04 Bill Murray wrote:
He won't do Nd5 or we will just drop into c4 and defending his possible check from a weakside bishop
Wait, are you saying that + Show Spoiler [continued] +if he plays Nd5 our best reply is c4? What's the point of that move? Doesn't it give up a pawn?
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On September 02 2011 00:47 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 00:41 mcc wrote:On September 01 2011 02:24 qrs wrote:Votes 6. e5: 37 (not counting carloselcoco's post) (hype[NZ], Bill Murray, Raysalis, jdseemoreglass, keyStorm, Malli, chesshaha, Malinor, EnderSword, LaXerCannon, pburns, shackes, Jumbled, EvilNalu, Boozerr, enigmaticcam, tyr, aphorism, itsjustatank, zasta, Chezus, wizard1944, wuBu, Varpulis, Sandwhale, Blazinghand, Shootist, timh, Sc1pio, Empyrean, carloselcoco?, GolemMadness, SOB_Maj_Brian, imBLIND, sleepingdog, GreatestThreat, WarChimp, Misder, durza, Archers_bane, DibujEx, Babyfactory) 6. e5 with official protest of our choice of 5th move: 2 (mcc, gogogadgetflow) 6. Bxc6: 1 (qrs) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RxTJa.png) Summary of Discussion I still think that 6. Bxc6 deserved more consideration than it received + Show Spoiler [main advantage of 6. Bxc6] +Its main advantage over 6. e5 is that it refrains from such early pushing of our central pawns. Since pawn moves cannot be undone, they need to be carefully weighed. Although there may be pros and cons both to having our pawn on e4 and to having it on e5, with a pawn on e4, e5 can be played at any time, whereas the converse is not true.
The potential disadvantages of such an early push are 1) weakening our control over d5 and 2) possibly allowing Black to exchange off our advanced pawns at a later point in the game. but the team has decided against it. The discussion, instead, has moved further along to Black's possible responses to 6. e5 and our options in response to those. After 6. e5+ Show Spoiler [Extended discussion] +6. e5 poses a direct threat ( 7. PxN) that Black needs to respond to, so his options at this juncture are limited. Unless he wants to sacrifice material for nothing, Black must either move his King's Knight or play 6...Qe7 (pinning the e-pawn to the King, so that 8. PxN becomes impossible). Of the 5 Knight moves available to Black, we can essentially rule out 6...Ng7, which undevelops a piece and blocks Black from castling, and 6...Nh5, which leaves the Knight no place to run after 7. g4. 6...Ng4 is technically playable, but appears very weak for Black: after 7. cxd4 our e-pawn is protected from capture by any of Black's pieces, and when the g4 Knight is driven off again by h3, he has nothing to play but ...h6, after which Bxh6 gains us a tempo (by trading an undeveloped piece for a developed one) and weakens Black's pawns (by isolating and doubling his h-pawns) and his Kingside. Therefore only three Black moves are under consideration: 6...Nd5, 6...Ne4, and 6...Qe7.
- 6...Nd5:
General
This is perhaps the solidest move for Black: it answers the threat by moving the Knight to a strong central square where it is active yet has places to retreat to, and cannot easily be driven away with tempo.
Possible responses
Our best response according to current consensus is 7. 0-0. The point of this move is that it takes advantage of the temporary pin on Black's d-pawn resulting from ...Nd5: if Black now plays 7...PxP? then 8. QxN. We use the time to move our King to safety before recapturing the pawn. This eliminates all possible Black tactics resulting from PxP Bb4+. (While these tactics do not threaten us, they do create threats that limit our possibilities and allow Black to partially dictate the direction of the game. 7. 0-0 denies Black this chance.
In this post, jdseemoreglass offers two lines following 6. e5 Nd5, one a book line and one the result of his own analysis. There has been no further discussion of this line yet.
- 6...Ne4:
General
This aggressive move has both pros and cons for Black. On the pro side, it exerts substantial pressure on us in the short term. On the con side, it commits Black to a position that he cannot maintain for long.
6...Ne4 exerts more pressure on us than 6...Nd5 for two reasons: - Unlike after 6...Nd5, after 6...Ne4, the d4 pawn is not pinned. This means that 7...dxc3 (consolidating Black's pawn advantage) becomes an immediate threat that we must take into account.
- Unlike 6...Nd5, 6...Ne4 controls the d2 square. This has immediate ramifications for the line 7. PxP Bb4+ 8. Bd2/Nd2 (8. Nc3? loses a piece). For instance, the move Bd2, which in other variations is our best response to ...Bb4+, becomes far less attractive in this line, as it allows Black to play 8...NxB (9. NbxN), exchanging Knight for Bishop (on such open boards as this one, Bishops are generally better, especially when one possesses the pair, as Black does), temporarily pinning our Knight on d2, and generally, strengthening the power of Black's dark-squared Bishop along the important a5-e1 diagonal.
On the other hand, unlike 6...Nd5, 6...Ne4 leaves Black with no place to retreat if attacked. This limits Black's options for when the Knight is attacked.
Possible responses
As mentioned, with 6...Ne4, Black threatens to capture a pawn. Our reply must take this into account. Three possible moves have been suggested:- 7. PxP is the most direct response, eliminating the threat to our pawn by capturing first.
In other lines where we play PxP, Black has a choice of moves with his Bishop, including ...Bb6, ...Bb4+, and a variety of other, playable but less promising-looking moves with his Bishop. In this case, the vulnerability of the e4 Knight makes it less clear whether Black is free to play any of these moves in response to ...PxP. The lines where White attacks the Knight directly with 7. Qe2 (see below) are relevant here, but I haven't spent much time looking at those yet, so I don't have an informed opinion as to whether or not 7. PxP Bb6 (or some other Bishop move) is viable for Black.
- In any case, the only Black response that has been discussed to 7. PxP is 7...Bb4+. As mentioned above, this is a more aggressive variation of ...Bb4+ than other scenarios because the Knight on e4 exerts pressure on d2.
- Here the best continuation is reasonably clear: we certainly don't want to sacrifice material or lose the ability to castle, we most likely do not want to play 8. Bd2 for reasons mentioned above, and 8. Nfd2 slows our development, so we presumably will play 8. Nbd2.
The continuation from here has been discussed to some extent: briefly, although Black is exerting a bit of short-term pressure on our position, he cannot keep it up: once we castle, the pin on our Knight is gone, and Black's e4 Knight is threatened (and has no especially good place to retreat to). Black can force a couple of exchanges in this line if he wishes, but the has no way (that we've found) to cash in on his short-term pressure. Exchanges benefit us more than Black here, as Black will be exchanging strong, developed pieces for undeveloped ones.
- See the second spoiler of this post by jdseemoreglass again for some further analysis on this line. Note, however, that his "example of a solid continuation" has been called into question: this post, which jdseemoreglass has not responded to, suggests that it drops a pawn for Black.
- 7. 0-0 ignores the threat to our pawn in favour of continuing our development. This line has received quite a lot of discussion.
- The most challenging response that Black can play (in terms of challenging the correctness of our move) is 7...dxc3, grabbing the material offered him, and betting that we do not get sufficient compensation for it. A couple of White responses have been suggested for this move, although neither has been analyzed to a clear conclusion. In all of the lines analyzed, Black retains a material advantage of one pawn, sometimes two, in exchange for which White gets a substantial lead in development. jdseemoreglass and Raysalis (though they advocate different lines) are each optimistic about White's chances in these lines, whereas qrs (I) is more pessimistic about White's ability to prevent Black from holding on until he has reached a winning endgame.
- The more aggressive of the two White responses is 8. Qd5, first recommended by Raysalis, and endorsed by our esteemed opponent himself as "a nice find for a few reasons in that line".
8. Qd5 forks Black's Knight and Bishop, and since the Knight is protecting the Bishop and nothing is protecting the Knight, threatens to capture one of them. This touches off a flurry of tactics, but at the end of the day Black retains his one-pawn lead. 8...Nd2 counter-attacks White's Rook. 9. B/NxN PxB/N 10. N/BxP Bishop moves allows black to simply retain his single pawn advantage.
The alternative preferred by Raysalis was 9. QxB NxR, after which either 10. KxN PxP 11. BxP or 10. NxP NxP 11. KxN. In either case, the result is unclear: Raysalis feels it to be advantageous for white, jdseemoreglass is noncommittal, qrs (I) favors black, and no one else has expressed an opinion.
- jdseemoreglass suggested the alternative 8. Qc2, attacking Black's e4 Knight (who has nowhere safe to move) and pinning Black's c-pawn to his Bishop. This post contains jdseemoreglass's suggested continuation: he analyzes it to a point where White is down by two pawns-worth of material, but has a substantial mobility advantage. Again, there is no consensus as to who is ahead in this line.
Note that this line has not seen much discussion and some points about it are not clear. For instance, in the linked post, jdseemoreglass says that "defending [the Knight] with a pawn will lead to en passant". In fact Black does defend his e4 Knight with a pawn and White captures this pawn en passant (with the pawn that had been guarding d6 and f6), then Black will be free to retake the pawn with his e4 Knight. It is not clear why this should not be an option for Black.
- Note: from here till the end of the post, I give only a skeletal summary for the time being.
7. Qe2 addresses the threat to the pawn by counter-attacking the e4 Knight. This move leads to some very sharp and interesting lines. See the original lines given by jdseemoreglass, in the post linked above.
- 6...Qe7 temporarily addresses our threat to Black's Knight by pinning our e-pawn to our King. Furthermore, it threatens the e-pawn by adding a second attacker, where we currently have only one defender. The consensus is that our best response to this is 7. 0-0. This allows Black to (at least temporarily) win a pawn with 7...NxP, but the consensus is that this would be a mistake for Black, although the details of the following lines are still under discussion.
PS On September 01 2011 00:49 jdseemoreglass wrote:On August 31 2011 23:22 qrs wrote:On August 31 2011 13:54 Empyrean wrote:
Gonna bandwagon onto 6. e5 since I've been busy lately X_X I don't understand reasoning like this. If you don't have enough time to figure out which move you think is best, wouldn't it make the most sense to simply abstain? A "bandwagon" vote seems to say nothing more than "this move is the one that most of the other voters prefer", which at best is stating the obvious, and at worst could even distort the vote if for whatever reason the current prevailing opinion changed. No offense meant; I just don't understand. On my next move vote, instead of a thorough analysis of multiple lines, my reason will be "qrs voted for it so it must be good." I think qrs might implode  Something else I don't understand: why do people use "implode" instead of "explode"? It's almost never the right word. My vote was not with official protest, it was more "We are doooooomed"  . And even though because of that it is hard for me to care about outcome that I think is set I put actually most thought into this move. I don't like where e5 is going, but I found nothing better Bxc6 included. Also implode and explode are both ok in the context he used it in. Unless you claim that people actually explode in such situations We already lost the game on move 5? Wow, that really sucks. We must be incredibly bad then. lol...
Yes
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On September 02 2011 07:04 Bill Murray wrote:
He won't do Nd5 or we will just drop into c4 and defending his possible check from a weakside bishop
actually nd5 bc4 would be a gross innacuracy as nb6 gives black instant initiative , and a better position . after nd5 0-0 seems natural , nd5 seems best for black imo
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On September 02 2011 13:02 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 07:04 Bill Murray wrote:
He won't do Nd5 or we will just drop into c4 and defending his possible check from a weakside bishop
Wait, are you saying that + Show Spoiler [continued] +if he plays Nd5 our best reply is c4? What's the point of that move? Doesn't it give up a pawn?
Fairly certain he means drop a bishop into c4 , but that is also a very poor move .
Going back to an earlier post , the early e5 move kind of makes our bishop misplaced on b5 , the Lopez( or spanish game )is designed to be slow and positional until white lands at the optimal setup for a central break . Taking that into account I see nd5 ,0-0 , 0-0 , cxd as a logical and tenable continuation . Now black has two probable choices bb6 or be7 . Bb6 is fairly committal but more in thinking with bc5 ; however be7 also seems quite playable and slightly more flexible , as we will most likely lose a tempi redirecting our bishop to c4 at the proper moment as the standard ba4 to b3 or c2 maneuver is no longer optimal ( i.e we have already advanced e5 and no longer need support for the e4 square, also the queen looks better on these squares at the moment to me ) . after bb6 i would play bc4 as the d5 knight can no longer reply nb6 to embarrass the c4 bishop , also the most natural replay for black after 0-0...0-0 , cxd ... bb6 , bc4 appears to be nce7 which leaves b slightly passive with superfluous knights : after be7 qb3 seems interesting and in keeping with whites aggression ; hitting the d5 b7 squares which plays against the c8 bishop and putting a x-ray on the f7 square .
. But I admit I have not put a great deal of thought into it as of yet just using what theory I already heuristically posses in these types of positions
But nd5 clearly seems best for black here . so to reiterate 6...Nd5 , 7 .0-0...0-0 , 8. cxd .. bb6 or be7 .. 9. (if bb6) bc4 (if be7) qb3
this novelty seems promising if white continues carefully ( btw I am a solid master ,does this make me too much of a ringer to play ? )
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On September 03 2011 01:45 MrProphylactic wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 02 2011 13:02 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 07:04 Bill Murray wrote:
He won't do Nd5 or we will just drop into c4 and defending his possible check from a weakside bishop
Wait, are you saying that + Show Spoiler [continued] +if he plays Nd5 our best reply is c4? What's the point of that move? Doesn't it give up a pawn? Fairly certain he means drop a bishop into c4 , but that is also a very poor move . Going back to an earlier post , the early e5 move kind of makes our bishop misplaced on b5 , the Lopez( or spanish game )is designed to be slow and positional until white lands at the optimal setup for a central break . Taking that into account I see nd5 ,0-0 , 0-0 , cxd as a logical and tenable continuation . Now black has two probable choices bb6 or be7 . Bb6 is fairly committal but more in thinking with bc5 ; however be7 also seems quite playable and slightly more flexible , as we will most likely lose a tempi redirecting our bishop to c4 at the proper moment as the standard ba4 to b3 or c2 maneuver is no longer optimal ( i.e we have already advanced e5 and no longer need support for the e4 square, also the queen looks better on these squares at the moment to me ) . after bb6 i would play bc4 as the d5 knight can no longer reply nb6 to embarrass the c4 bishop , also the most natural moves appears to be nce7 which leaves b slightly passive with superfluous knights : after be7 qb3 seems interesting and in keeping with whites aggression ; hitting the d5 b7 squares which plays against the c8 bishop and putting a x-ray on the f7 square . . But I admit I have not put a great deal of thought into it as of yet But nd5 clearly seems best for black here . so to reiterate 6...Nd5 , 7 .0-0...0-0 , 8. cxd .. bb6 or be7 .. 9. (if bb6) bc4 (if be7) qb3 this novelty seems promising if white continues carefully ( btw I am a solid master ,does this make me too much of a ringer to play ? )
Excellent analysis. Glad to hear someone is on the same page I am (and a master no less? o_O)
Ng5 requested that we spoiler our moves though, so he doesn't see them.
However, I think there might be a better move for black:
+ Show Spoiler +Originally I thought Nc3 was the better move instead of Qb3. After looking at the position further after 9. Qb3 Nb6 (forced) 10. d5 Nb8 (forced), and here we have what I think is the key move in this position: 11. d6! A pawn sacrifice to gain a strong positional advantage, preventing the light bishop from being developed anytime soon, and denying a retreat square for the b6 knight. 11. ... cxd6 12. exd6 Bxd6 13. a4 a5 14. Bd3 Here we switch to a king-side attack before black has the time to develop and muster defenses. We are threatening Bxh7+ followed by Ng5+ and Qd3. Black plays to prevent this plan: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EvDws.png) 14. h6 Qb5 Keeping the pressure on. Now we threaten Bxh6 followed by Qf5, going for a mating attack. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ms4dz.png) After looking at these lines, I think black might have a better play earlier. What do you think of the line: 7. O-O Be7 8. cxd4 d6 I think this might be a better order of moves for black than castling on 7. Do you agree?
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Imo all of the tactics in the ne4 and f2 sac lines favor white , or white wins on the spot with careful play ...he wont play ne4 , and if he did the sac on f2 would lose immediately
for example
+ Show Spoiler +..... ne4 , qe2(the correct reply ) ..nxf2??! , qxf2(forced)..qe7 ( maybe the best try ??)and now the finesse move qg3!!! holds the position.
If black tries the in-between move f6 to pry us open then bxc6 to remove an e5 attacker and white holds up a piece. I do not see any move besides f6 that threatens us in any serious way after that position that cannot easily be refuted
so 6.. ne4 , 7 qe2..nxf2?! , 8 qxf2 .. qe7 , 9. qg3 !? ..f6 , 10. bxc6 ..dxc6 , 11 cxd ...bb6 and white follows up with 12. 0-0 winning , and white may win a miniature
.The line is just losing , but it is worth looking at , as some of those moves are forced ; and as jdseemoreglass pointed out there are some tricks black could try .
So logically speaking if nxf2 is not playable then d5 would be more or less forced for black after qe2 , which is only slightly better than nxf2 with optimal play for black or I should say slightly less losing . Looking at that lines yields the following . 6..ne4, 7 qe2.. d5 , 8 exd e.p. ....and now black has the unpleasant choices of f5 ?! and 0-0 both lose a pawn and give white a close to winning position . someone let me know if they see any mistakes in that analysis .
p.s here is an interesting line instead of d5 if black try's f5 immediately lol ( which is horrible , but hey we are looking at it )
6...ne4 7 .qe2....f5?!! , 8 exf e.p. ... 0-0 (forced) 9. bxc6 or we can actually play qxe4 here I believe I KNOW LOOKS CRAZY but check it out . 8.......0-0 . 9. qxe4!!!! .. re8 . 10 bxc6!! .. rxq
11. bxr ...now if qxf6 then white replies cxd .bxd Nxd Qxd and Nc3 holds . white gets 2 minors and a rook for the queen . a clear win . However black actually has a slightly better move instead of going for the queen in after re8 . for instance 6....Ne4 7.Qe2...f5 8.exf e.p. ... 0-0
9. Qxe4 ?! ...re8 10. bxc6 ...(and now the calm dxc6 is slightly better but still most likely losing)
11. f7 + ...Kxf7 12 Ne5 + saving the queen . however I need to look a little longer to be sure .
All of these lines seem to favor white with proper play . This was just a demonstration that even if things get crazy white seems to come out on top , however qxe4 is by no means a needed[spoiler
ok I will put in the spoiler from now on ne4 , qe2(the correct reply ) ..nxf2??! , qxf2(forced)..qe7 (the best try )and now the finesse move qg3!!! holds the position.
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On September 03 2011 02:41 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 01:45 MrProphylactic wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 02 2011 13:02 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 07:04 Bill Murray wrote:
He won't do Nd5 or we will just drop into c4 and defending his possible check from a weakside bishop
Wait, are you saying that + Show Spoiler [continued] +if he plays Nd5 our best reply is c4? What's the point of that move? Doesn't it give up a pawn? Fairly certain he means drop a bishop into c4 , but that is also a very poor move . Going back to an earlier post , the early e5 move kind of makes our bishop misplaced on b5 , the Lopez( or spanish game )is designed to be slow and positional until white lands at the optimal setup for a central break . Taking that into account I see nd5 ,0-0 , 0-0 , cxd as a logical and tenable continuation . Now black has two probable choices bb6 or be7 . Bb6 is fairly committal but more in thinking with bc5 ; however be7 also seems quite playable and slightly more flexible , as we will most likely lose a tempi redirecting our bishop to c4 at the proper moment as the standard ba4 to b3 or c2 maneuver is no longer optimal ( i.e we have already advanced e5 and no longer need support for the e4 square, also the queen looks better on these squares at the moment to me ) . after bb6 i would play bc4 as the d5 knight can no longer reply nb6 to embarrass the c4 bishop , also the most natural moves appears to be nce7 which leaves b slightly passive with superfluous knights : after be7 qb3 seems interesting and in keeping with whites aggression ; hitting the d5 b7 squares which plays against the c8 bishop and putting a x-ray on the f7 square . . But I admit I have not put a great deal of thought into it as of yet But nd5 clearly seems best for black here . so to reiterate 6...Nd5 , 7 .0-0...0-0 , 8. cxd .. bb6 or be7 .. 9. (if bb6) bc4 (if be7) qb3 this novelty seems promising if white continues carefully ( btw I am a solid master ,does this make me too much of a ringer to play ? ) Excellent analysis. Glad to hear someone is on the same page I am (and a master no less? o_O) Ng5 requested that we spoiler our moves though, so he doesn't see them. However, I think there might be a better move for black: + Show Spoiler +Originally I thought Nc3 was the better move instead of Qb3. After looking at the position further after 9. Qb3 Nb6 (forced) 10. d5 Nb8 (forced), and here we have what I think is the key move in this position: 11. d6! A pawn sacrifice to gain a strong positional advantage, preventing the light bishop from being developed anytime soon, and denying a retreat square for the b6 knight. 11. ... cxd6 12. exd6 Bxd6 13. a4 a5 14. Bd3 Here we switch to a king-side attack before black has the time to develop and muster defenses. We are threatening Bxh7+ followed by Ng5+ and Qd3. Black plays to prevent this plan: 14. h6 Qb5 Keeping the pressure on. Now we threaten Bxh6 followed by Qf5, going for a mating attack. After looking at these lines, I think black might have a better play earlier. What do you think of the line: 7. O-O Be7 8. cxd4 d6 I think this might be a better order of moves for black than castling on 7. Do you agree?
edit .. I was confused let me look again.. ok you are missing be7 . it prevents bxh7 the weakening move h6 is not forced , but that is quite in-depth, and for the most part very accurate analysis( you seem quite strong indeed ) ; if moves are not forced try to look at every logical move that offers immediate defense . be7 is better than h6 imo as black has a clever finesse with a timely interference move . Be7 also has the added benefit of clearing the d pawn for future advance while moving the bishop from its precarious perch on d6 . example : After be7 white can try be3 hitting the b6 knight to embarrass the black position , but after bb4 !? black both defends the knight and interferes with qb5 . where as before bb4 was not possible as bxh7 kxh7 ng5 allowed the queen to swing over to h3 .. now the e3 bishop is in the way , and the b4 bishop also blocks the qb5 maneuver , however I think white gets compensation play for the pawn regardless , and the line feels playable , but it is far from a knock out , we are not allowed to use computers so I am not 100 percent on this as this position is extremely complex , but it feels =ish to me if I had to guess based on intuition .
I am hard put to find a more useful move than be3 for white, which is allowing this idea .
In contrast Nc3 instead of be3 seems to give black the edge after the reply ... nc6. The more I look at it be7 is more or less forced if black wishes to play for an edge after white sacs . The question is how much play will white get for the extra tempi's this pawn yields , to me it is unclear without uber-deep analysis ( which there is quite a bit of tactical analysis here , but the positional considerations are more important ultimately as I do not think there is a knock-out blow , whites advantage will emerge far into the middle game if at all )
Even for a master this position is very difficult , and I do not pretend to know for sure , it could be avoiding these complications are preferable for black in which case your original point would be correct but for different reasons . white gets compensation for the pawn , is the conclusion I am drawn toward , but not winning ( about the value white sacs , however if blacks survives with a semi-equal ending B should be slightly better or just up a pawn )
To answer you question I think your be7 line is playable , I cannot find anything wrong with it tactically , it feels a little strange positionally , but it could just be a matter of taste and style
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MrProphylactic wrote:
...he wont play ne4
Oh, but I will.
Welcome on the roster, go ahead and post I really don't mind.
Just give me half a second now.
PS: Damn and I already used the troll peek.
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My move is posted, still on Friday - as promised.
Now it's your turn guys.
Round 7th has now officially started.
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A look at the book lines following 6. ... Ne4
+ Show Spoiler +6. e5 Ne4 7. cxd4 Bb4+![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yufll.png) 6. e5 Ne4 7. Qe2 d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qd5 10. Bc4 Qd7 11. O-O![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2aoaT.png) 6. e5 Ne4 7. Qe2 d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qd5 10. Bc4 Qf5 11. Bd3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hRnNE.png) 6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qxc7![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AQpQF.png)
A look at other variations that have been mentioned:
+ Show Spoiler +Well, if black did play 6. ... Ne4, I would argue in favor of 7. cxd4 as our best move, followed by 7. ... Bc4+ 8. Nbd2.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/JzPoo.png) With an example of a solid continuation being: 8. ... O-O 9. O-O a6 10. Ba4 d5 11. a3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F1R01.png) 5. e5 Ne4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Ng5In the position you cited, we simply have to castle. 8. Nbd2 Ng5 9. O-O![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bcWzP.png) No matter how black follows up now, we end up with a solid lead in development and space. For example: If 9. ... Nxf3, we simply recapture with out knight, 10. Nxf3.If 9. ... Bxd2, we play 10. Bxd2 Nxf3+ 11. Qxe3.Here, if black tries grabbing the pawn, 11. ... Nxd4, we have the very strong move 12. Qg3!![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9fcPd.png) If 12. ... Nxb5?, we play 13. Qxg7 Rf8 14. Bg5, winning the queen, or mating. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CxMLy.png) If 12. ... O-O, then 13. Bg5 Qe8 14. Bd3 opens up too many threats ( Qh4, Bxh7, Bf6, etc.) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cbame.png) If 12. ... Ne6, then 13. f4, and we are already storming toward the king-side. If 12. ... Nf5, we play 13. Qg4. The knight can't be defended by the bishop because of the pinned pawn, and 13. ... d6 loses the queen to 14. Bg5. Black's best move here, I think is 12. Kf8, which concedes too much in exchange for the pawn.
I'm following through with the assessment I came to earlier, and voting:
7. cxd4
A question for MrProphylactic:
+ Show Spoiler +
In your previous analysis you repeated twice that Qe2 is the correct reply in this position, but you never explained why it is better than the alternative, cxd4. The book lines look much more complicated following Qe2, so it's difficult for me to tell if either side has an actual advantage. Could you elaborate on why you consider this the proper reply?
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Qe2
+ Show Spoiler +My problem with cxd4 this line:
7.cxd4 Bb4+ 8.Nd2 a6! Our options in this situation would be...
-Ba4 which isn't bad but the bishop isn't doing much on a4.
-Bc4 which provokes d5, further gaining tempo and defending the knight on e4
-Bxc6 is bad as dxc6 reveals a weak pawn on d4 that can be taken after forcing the Knight on f3 to defend d2
-Bd3 is the only logical choice and even then, the position plays out to a simple and equal playing field.
The lines after 7. Qe2 are far more complex and would simply be advantageous for us as we have multiple brains thinking for our side
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On September 03 2011 12:28 Ng5 wrote:Oh, but I will. Welcome on the roster, go ahead and post I really don't mind. Just give me half a second now. PS: Damn and I already used the troll peek.
Lol ...ok you got me, maybe the move deserved more attention .
I am still not sure about the move .
Looks like I need to give this one more thought .
+ Show Spoiler + Ok my first impression was and is still qe2, although I am not voting yet . The complications seem to favor white , and I see we survive nxf2 with a winning position. The above analysis provided by the previous posters is more than adequate to PROVE why the cxd line should not be voted for again . We are transposing here to like the two-knights or the scotch or something . qe2 looks solid , on several lines bc4 is a real threat. For example: we have a sweet tactic in this line based on the x-ray which is a reoccurring theme in some of these lines 10. 0-0... dxc3.
11. b2xc...nxc3??.(here black has to play qe5 which leads to += imo ) 12. nxn...qxn. 13. bb2...bg4( more or lessed forced . the other losing try is 13...qb4. If 13...qa5 then white plays 14.qe5!! forcing mate in one. After 13.....qb4 . 14. qe5 black with be forced to give up a queen for the b2 bishop to prevent forced mate in one. ) After 13....bg4 . white wins with 14. bxq ....bxq 15.bxb
Going to look a little longer maybe bounce some ideas off you guys , how long do we have to make the move ?
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Hong Kong9151 Posts
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On September 04 2011 02:29 MrProphylactic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2011 12:28 Ng5 wrote:MrProphylactic wrote:
...he wont play ne4
Oh, but I will. Welcome on the roster, go ahead and post I really don't mind. Just give me half a second now. PS: Damn and I already used the troll peek. Lol ...ok you got me, maybe the move deserved more attention . I am still not sure about the move . Looks like I need to give this one more thought . + Show Spoiler + Ok my first impression was and is still qe2, although I am not voting yet . The complications seem to favor white , and I see we survive nxf2 with a winning position. The above analysis provided by the previous posters is more than adequate to PROVE why the cxd line should not be voted for again . We are transposing here to like the two-knights or the scotch or something .
Going to look a little longer maybe bounce some ideas off you guys , how long do we have to make the move ?
+ Show Spoiler +I'm sorry, but what analysis "proves" that the cxd4 line should not be played? My analysis shows a game that's fine for white. The only other person who voted thought that somehow a6 was a dangerous move because we have to move our bishop, which makes no sense to me...
cxd4 is certainly a viable move. If you want to argue Qe2 is better, than you have to be able to show HOW the following complications end up favoring white, instead of just asserting it.
There literally isn't a single game in my database where a grandmaster plays Qe2 in this position. They all either play O-O or cxd4, with castling being favored. I haven't looked at castling here, so I will have to do that and then perhaps change my vote later.
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+ Show Spoiler + In my opinion the analysis proves that black gets a dead equal game out of cxd on this move , and there is no reason to let black get an equal game so easily when we don't have to yet . Especially if the other complications favor white . We want to make black work for equality here I think, not to say it is a bad move , it leads to an equal position , but in my humble opinion white should be playing for an advantage after ne4 . edit: btw I edited in some lines in my previous post .
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QE2
+ Show Spoiler + . My feeling IS D5 is blacks best move to respond ( i wrote the wrong move here had to edit it , I was thinking about the position after ..ne4,qe2,d5,exd,0-0,dxc,qd5(qe7 possible here),0-0 ,and wrote nd6 which maybe the best next move in this line lol ) . whichever move black tries white seems to keep the initiative . I will provide some more analysis a little later
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
Nbd2
+ Show Spoiler +provides nice buffer to the center after the exchanges pop down. we can still castle and then bring queen out on queen side
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EPT
