Here's for hoping the one I had in mind is still open.
Edit: Victory. Tomorrow will be a sad evening for some.
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Ng5
702 Posts
Here's for hoping the one I had in mind is still open. Edit: Victory. Tomorrow will be a sad evening for some. | ||
Ikari
United States176 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Putting pressure on the c5 Bishop while also developing more presence in the center. | ||
MrProphylactic
296 Posts
On September 03 2011 13:14 jdseemoreglass wrote: A look at the book lines following 6. ... Ne4 + Show Spoiler + A look at other variations that have been mentioned: + Show Spoiler + Well, if black did play 6. ... Ne4, I would argue in favor of 7. cxd4 as our best move, followed by 7. ... Bc4+ 8. Nbd2. ![]() With an example of a solid continuation being: 8. ... O-O 9. O-O a6 10. Ba4 d5 11. a3 ![]() 5. e5 Ne4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Ng5 In the position you cited, we simply have to castle. 8. Nbd2 Ng5 9. O-O ![]() No matter how black follows up now, we end up with a solid lead in development and space. For example: If 9. ... Nxf3, we simply recapture with out knight, 10. Nxf3. If 9. ... Bxd2, we play 10. Bxd2 Nxf3+ 11. Qxe3. Here, if black tries grabbing the pawn, 11. ... Nxd4, we have the very strong move 12. Qg3! ![]() If 12. ... Nxb5?, we play 13. Qxg7 Rf8 14. Bg5, winning the queen, or mating. ![]() If 12. ... O-O, then 13. Bg5 Qe8 14. Bd3 opens up too many threats (Qh4, Bxh7, Bf6, etc.) ![]() If 12. ... Ne6, then 13. f4, and we are already storming toward the king-side. If 12. ... Nf5, we play 13. Qg4. The knight can't be defended by the bishop because of the pinned pawn, and 13. ... d6 loses the queen to 14. Bg5. Black's best move here, I think is 12. Kf8, which concedes too much in exchange for the pawn. I'm following through with the assessment I came to earlier, and voting: 7. cxd4 A question for MrProphylactic: + Show Spoiler + In your previous analysis you repeated twice that Qe2 is the correct reply in this position, but you never explained why it is better than the alternative, cxd4. The book lines look much more complicated following Qe2, so it's difficult for me to tell if either side has an actual advantage. Could you elaborate on why you consider this the proper reply? + Show Spoiler + it is juts my general intuition that qe2 is more natural , however to be honest I do not know the theory very well , if you have the ECO out then you have a little more information than me , I didn't think he would choose the ne4 lines to begin with , from what I remembered about these ne4 positions in the central variations of the classical lopez from studying them years back , is they favor white slightly . But I am sure cxd is playable , just seems to reduce to equality as long as black doesn't go for any free pawns.I kind of prefer keeping the tension myself . But as I said my theory is way out of date , just going on intuition and mild analysis | ||
MrProphylactic
296 Posts
On September 03 2011 13:14 jdseemoreglass wrote: A look at the book lines following 6. ... Ne4 + Show Spoiler + A look at other variations that have been mentioned: + Show Spoiler + Well, if black did play 6. ... Ne4, I would argue in favor of 7. cxd4 as our best move, followed by 7. ... Bc4+ 8. Nbd2. ![]() With an example of a solid continuation being: 8. ... O-O 9. O-O a6 10. Ba4 d5 11. a3 ![]() 5. e5 Ne4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Ng5 In the position you cited, we simply have to castle. 8. Nbd2 Ng5 9. O-O ![]() No matter how black follows up now, we end up with a solid lead in development and space. For example: If 9. ... Nxf3, we simply recapture with out knight, 10. Nxf3. If 9. ... Bxd2, we play 10. Bxd2 Nxf3+ 11. Qxe3. Here, if black tries grabbing the pawn, 11. ... Nxd4, we have the very strong move 12. Qg3! ![]() If 12. ... Nxb5?, we play 13. Qxg7 Rf8 14. Bg5, winning the queen, or mating. ![]() If 12. ... O-O, then 13. Bg5 Qe8 14. Bd3 opens up too many threats (Qh4, Bxh7, Bf6, etc.) ![]() If 12. ... Ne6, then 13. f4, and we are already storming toward the king-side. If 12. ... Nf5, we play 13. Qg4. The knight can't be defended by the bishop because of the pinned pawn, and 13. ... d6 loses the queen to 14. Bg5. Black's best move here, I think is 12. Kf8, which concedes too much in exchange for the pawn. I'm following through with the assessment I came to earlier, and voting: 7. cxd4 A question for MrProphylactic: + Show Spoiler + In your previous analysis you repeated twice that Qe2 is the correct reply in this position, but you never explained why it is better than the alternative, cxd4. The book lines look much more complicated following Qe2, so it's difficult for me to tell if either side has an actual advantage. Could you elaborate on why you consider this the proper reply? + Show Spoiler + it is juts my general intuition that qe2 in the classical lopez central variation and Benelux variations ( if I remember that is the name of this line) is more natural and keeps the tension a little longer, however to be honest I do not know the theory very well , if you have the ECO out then you have a little more information than me , I didn't think he would choose the ne4 lines to begin with , from what I remembered about these positions from studying them years back , is they favor white slightly . . But I am sure cxd is playable , just seems to reduce to equality as long as black doesn't go for any free pawns.I kind of prefer keeping the tension myself, but I suppose it comes down to style in the end . At least the lines I was seeing are mainlines hehe oooops double posted attemtping to edit | ||
Misder
United States1557 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 7. cxd4 Nxf2 8. Kxf2 Nxd4 9. Nxd4 Qh4+ Black seems super ahead here... Edit: + Show Spoiler + I didn't really look into this variation at all, but it was the first thing that came up in my mind when I saw the board xD | ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On September 04 2011 09:44 Misder wrote: Someone want to take a look at this? (Move against 7. cxd4) + Show Spoiler + 7. cxd4 Nxf2 8. Kxf2 Nxd4 9. Nxd4 Qh4+ Black seems super ahead here... Edit: + Show Spoiler + I didn't really look into this variation at all, but it was the first thing that came up in my mind when I saw the board xD + Show Spoiler + Playing 9. Be3 instead of Nxd4 is the saving move here, defending against discovered check tactics, as well as Qh4+. Here we have secured our material advantage, and should simplify to a win. | ||
Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + we've set ourself up for this with previous moves, why not do it? | ||
sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + imo best move in this position. Bb4 is no real threat, we can defend with Bd2 and be fine. Black has no real way to threaten our central pawn position and we will have a slight positional advantage. | ||
Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 7. Qe2 leads after 7..d5 8.exd6 to quite an interesting position. But I like our strong center pawns in the 7.cxd4 variante too much | ||
WarChimp
Australia943 Posts
Let's get on with this! | ||
shackes
Germany148 Posts
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Chezus
Netherlands427 Posts
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MrProphylactic
296 Posts
imo this line(cxd4) will peter out to more or less equality , and after black establishes d5 we will be left with a weak pawn base on d4 . the advanced pawns are double edged strategically However, we get more central space in exchange for this weakness. .This resulting position will appear somewhat like an advanced french endgame when all the pieces are gone , but it looks like the cxd's are goona have it . I suppose playing a sharp position would be difficult to play with all these people so maybe something more passive is better . these types of endings are notoriously hard for white to win though(in an ending with a weak d4 pawn base we can get our pieces tied down to defending it , or black can eventually break our center with f6 in the distant future ) , I would have liked a chance to really make black pay for playing this line after ne4 qe2 . I kind of see this game as an odd experiment .can the stronger players steer the weaker ones ino voting playable moves usings analysis and arguments , but if people are not even going to either analyze on there own or read others analysis, and just show up bandwagon voting , it makes the entire experiment kind of pointless . The weaker players and beginners have a real opportunity to see into the psyche of strong players here (those that are providing analysis, and strong players do not always agree on moves ( as long as it isn't forced ), in any given equal position 10 grandmasters will quite often suggest 10 different moves ) | ||
MrProphylactic
296 Posts
On September 04 2011 19:37 WarChimp wrote: I feel kinda bad now that I am voting what everyone else is. But I came into this thread to say 7. cxd4 Let's get on with this! Why would you feel bad if you think it is the best move . or are you saying you voted it just because everyone else did ? I would suggest if you are not going to take the time to look at the position and acutally think , and read the analysis people are providing to come up with an intellectually based vote, then do not vote at all . voting out of pure democratic-influence is quite silly imo, if that is in fact what you mean; also there is no hurry until the deadline(which is what btw ?) | ||
chesshaha
United States1117 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I hate the position we are at right now, so messy... If we played 0-0 on move 5 we won't be in such of position. I first thought cxd is a good move, and it is I think. But later black and threat Bb4+, and we might have to move our king into the open and can't castle anymore. That knight on e4 is such a threat, I don't like our positioning at all. | ||
MrProphylactic
296 Posts
On September 04 2011 22:02 chesshaha wrote: 7. 0-0 + Show Spoiler + I hate the position we are at right now, so messy... If we played 0-0 on move 5 we won't be in such of position. I first thought cxd is a good move, and it is I think. But later black and threat Bb4+, and we might have to move our king into the open and can't castle anymore. That knight on e4 is such a threat, I don't like our positioning at all. + Show Spoiler + imo white still has the natural advantage from moving first , or should I say natural initiative . I do not care for the position as much after cxd4 as qe2 , as I have said but it is a matter of style and what I think gives us the most winning chances against a player of NG5's strength. I would prefer keeping the tension myself , but others have provided mainline theory which I admit I am a little rusty in the central variation of the ruy lopez , not really a e4 player much anymore in tournaments . In response to chesshaha , our weak d4 point will be the greatest annoyance possibly after cxd4 (later in the game) I will have to look at 0-0 here | ||
Shootist
Singapore405 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + in short I feel more comfortable without an opponent's pawn so far up the board (should black capture it in this game). Easier to move the knight later as well. | ||
Picklesicle
United States64 Posts
Sorry, all. | ||
Sc1pio
United States823 Posts
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 7. 0-0 appears to me to drop a pawn, and 7. cxd4 gives a very nasty check that isn't much fun either. If we take the Knight first, we alleviate the threat and get our pawn back. | ||
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