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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 46

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Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-03 20:54:07
September 03 2011 20:47 GMT
#901
Good god I'm just making my nth user ID on ICC.

Here's for hoping the one I had in mind is still open.

Edit: Victory. Tomorrow will be a sad evening for some.
Ikari
Profile Joined April 2007
United States176 Posts
September 03 2011 21:33 GMT
#902
7.cxd4

+ Show Spoiler +
Putting pressure on the c5 Bishop while also developing more presence in the center.
God Mode: Alt+F4
MrProphylactic
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
296 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 01:12:28
September 04 2011 00:23 GMT
#903
On September 03 2011 13:14 jdseemoreglass wrote:
A look at the book lines following 6. ... Ne4
+ Show Spoiler +

6. e5 Ne4 7. cxd4 Bb4+

[image loading]


6. e5 Ne4 7. Qe2 d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qd5 10. Bc4 Qd7 11. O-O

[image loading]


6. e5 Ne4 7. Qe2 d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qd5 10. Bc4 Qf5 11. Bd3

[image loading]


6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qxc7

[image loading]


A look at other variations that have been mentioned:
+ Show Spoiler +

Well, if black did play 6. ... Ne4, I would argue in favor of 7. cxd4 as our best move, followed by 7. ... Bc4+ 8. Nbd2.

[image loading]

With an example of a solid continuation being:

8. ... O-O 9. O-O a6 10. Ba4 d5 11. a3

[image loading]



5. e5 Ne4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Ng5

In the position you cited, we simply have to castle. 8. Nbd2 Ng5 9. O-O

[image loading]

No matter how black follows up now, we end up with a solid lead in development and space. For example:

If 9. ... Nxf3, we simply recapture with out knight, 10. Nxf3.

If 9. ... Bxd2, we play 10. Bxd2 Nxf3+ 11. Qxe3.

Here, if black tries grabbing the pawn, 11. ... Nxd4, we have the very strong move 12. Qg3!

[image loading]

If 12. ... Nxb5?, we play 13. Qxg7 Rf8 14. Bg5, winning the queen, or mating.

[image loading]

If 12. ... O-O, then 13. Bg5 Qe8 14. Bd3 opens up too many threats (Qh4, Bxh7, Bf6, etc.)

[image loading]

If 12. ... Ne6, then 13. f4, and we are already storming toward the king-side.

If 12. ... Nf5, we play 13. Qg4. The knight can't be defended by the bishop because of the pinned pawn, and 13. ... d6 loses the queen to 14. Bg5.

Black's best move here, I think is 12. Kf8, which concedes too much in exchange for the pawn.



I'm following through with the assessment I came to earlier, and voting:

7. cxd4

A question for MrProphylactic:
+ Show Spoiler +

In your previous analysis you repeated twice that Qe2 is the correct reply in this position, but you never explained why it is better than the alternative, cxd4. The book lines look much more complicated following Qe2, so it's difficult for me to tell if either side has an actual advantage. Could you elaborate on why you consider this the proper reply?



+ Show Spoiler +
it is juts my general intuition that qe2 is more natural , however to be honest I do not know the theory very well , if you have the ECO out then you have a little more information than me , I didn't think he would choose the ne4 lines to begin with , from what I remembered about these ne4 positions in the central variations of the classical lopez
from studying them years back , is they favor white slightly
. But I am sure cxd is playable , just seems to reduce to equality as long as black doesn't go for any free pawns.I kind of prefer keeping the tension myself . But as I said my theory is way out of date , just going on intuition and mild analysis
"The Beauty of a move is not in its appearance, but the thought behind it" Nimzovitch
MrProphylactic
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
296 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 01:13:25
September 04 2011 00:24 GMT
#904
On September 03 2011 13:14 jdseemoreglass wrote:
A look at the book lines following 6. ... Ne4
+ Show Spoiler +

6. e5 Ne4 7. cxd4 Bb4+

[image loading]


6. e5 Ne4 7. Qe2 d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qd5 10. Bc4 Qd7 11. O-O

[image loading]


6. e5 Ne4 7. Qe2 d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qd5 10. Bc4 Qf5 11. Bd3

[image loading]


6. e5 Ne4 7. O-O d5 8. exd6ep O-O 9. dxc7 Qxc7

[image loading]


A look at other variations that have been mentioned:
+ Show Spoiler +

Well, if black did play 6. ... Ne4, I would argue in favor of 7. cxd4 as our best move, followed by 7. ... Bc4+ 8. Nbd2.

[image loading]

With an example of a solid continuation being:

8. ... O-O 9. O-O a6 10. Ba4 d5 11. a3

[image loading]



5. e5 Ne4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nbd2 Ng5

In the position you cited, we simply have to castle. 8. Nbd2 Ng5 9. O-O

[image loading]

No matter how black follows up now, we end up with a solid lead in development and space. For example:

If 9. ... Nxf3, we simply recapture with out knight, 10. Nxf3.

If 9. ... Bxd2, we play 10. Bxd2 Nxf3+ 11. Qxe3.

Here, if black tries grabbing the pawn, 11. ... Nxd4, we have the very strong move 12. Qg3!

[image loading]

If 12. ... Nxb5?, we play 13. Qxg7 Rf8 14. Bg5, winning the queen, or mating.

[image loading]

If 12. ... O-O, then 13. Bg5 Qe8 14. Bd3 opens up too many threats (Qh4, Bxh7, Bf6, etc.)

[image loading]

If 12. ... Ne6, then 13. f4, and we are already storming toward the king-side.

If 12. ... Nf5, we play 13. Qg4. The knight can't be defended by the bishop because of the pinned pawn, and 13. ... d6 loses the queen to 14. Bg5.

Black's best move here, I think is 12. Kf8, which concedes too much in exchange for the pawn.



I'm following through with the assessment I came to earlier, and voting:

7. cxd4

A question for MrProphylactic:
+ Show Spoiler +

In your previous analysis you repeated twice that Qe2 is the correct reply in this position, but you never explained why it is better than the alternative, cxd4. The book lines look much more complicated following Qe2, so it's difficult for me to tell if either side has an actual advantage. Could you elaborate on why you consider this the proper reply?


+ Show Spoiler +
it is juts my general intuition that qe2 in the classical lopez central variation and Benelux variations ( if I remember that is the name of this line) is more natural and keeps the tension a little longer, however to be honest I do not know the theory very well , if you have the ECO out then you have a little more information than me , I didn't think he would choose the ne4 lines to begin with , from what I remembered about these positions from studying them years back , is they favor white slightly .
. But I am sure cxd is playable , just seems to reduce to equality as long as black doesn't go for any free pawns.I kind of prefer keeping the tension myself, but I suppose it comes down to style in the end . At least the lines I was seeing are mainlines hehe


oooops double posted attemtping to edit
"The Beauty of a move is not in its appearance, but the thought behind it" Nimzovitch
Misder
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1557 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 00:48:00
September 04 2011 00:44 GMT
#905
Someone want to take a look at this? (Move against 7. cxd4)
+ Show Spoiler +
7. cxd4 Nxf2
8. Kxf2 Nxd4
9. Nxd4 Qh4+
Black seems super ahead here...


Edit: + Show Spoiler +
I didn't really look into this variation at all, but it was the first thing that came up in my mind when I saw the board xD
Whaaaa?
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 03:08:57
September 04 2011 03:08 GMT
#906
On September 04 2011 09:44 Misder wrote:
Someone want to take a look at this? (Move against 7. cxd4)
+ Show Spoiler +
7. cxd4 Nxf2
8. Kxf2 Nxd4
9. Nxd4 Qh4+
Black seems super ahead here...


Edit: + Show Spoiler +
I didn't really look into this variation at all, but it was the first thing that came up in my mind when I saw the board xD

+ Show Spoiler +

Playing 9. Be3 instead of Nxd4 is the saving move here, defending against discovered check tactics, as well as Qh4+. Here we have secured our material advantage, and should simplify to a win.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
September 04 2011 09:31 GMT
#907
cxd4

+ Show Spoiler +
we've set ourself up for this with previous moves, why not do it?
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
sleepingdog
Profile Joined August 2008
Austria6145 Posts
September 04 2011 09:46 GMT
#908
cxd4

+ Show Spoiler +
imo best move in this position. Bb4 is no real threat, we can defend with Bd2 and be fine. Black has no real way to threaten our central pawn position and we will have a slight positional advantage.
"You see....YOU SEE..." © 2010 Sen
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4734 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 10:02:11
September 04 2011 10:01 GMT
#909
7. cxd4

+ Show Spoiler +
7. Qe2 leads after 7..d5 8.exd6 to quite an interesting position. But I like our strong center pawns in the 7.cxd4 variante too much
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
WarChimp
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Australia943 Posts
September 04 2011 10:37 GMT
#910
I feel kinda bad now that I am voting what everyone else is. But I came into this thread to say 7. cxd4
Let's get on with this!
shackes
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany148 Posts
September 04 2011 12:06 GMT
#911
7. cxd4
Chezus
Profile Joined January 2011
Netherlands427 Posts
September 04 2011 12:44 GMT
#912
7. cxd4

MrProphylactic
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
296 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 13:06:56
September 04 2011 12:45 GMT
#913
+ Show Spoiler +
imo this line(cxd4) will peter out to more or less equality , and after black establishes d5 we will be left with a weak pawn base on d4 . the advanced pawns are double edged strategically
However, we get more central space in exchange for this weakness. .This resulting position will appear somewhat like an advanced french endgame when all the pieces are gone , but it looks like the cxd's are goona have it .
I suppose playing a sharp position would be difficult to play with all these people so maybe something more passive is better . these types of endings are notoriously hard for white to win though(in an ending with a weak d4 pawn base we can get our pieces tied down to defending it , or black can eventually break our center with f6 in the distant future ) , I would have liked a chance to really make black pay for playing this line after ne4 qe2 . I kind of see this game as an odd experiment .can the stronger players steer the weaker ones ino voting playable moves usings analysis and arguments , but if people are not even going to either analyze on there own or read others analysis, and just show up bandwagon voting , it makes the entire experiment kind of pointless . The weaker players and beginners have a real opportunity to see into the psyche of strong players here (those that are providing analysis, and strong players do not always agree on moves ( as long as it isn't forced ), in any given equal position 10 grandmasters will quite often suggest 10 different moves )
"The Beauty of a move is not in its appearance, but the thought behind it" Nimzovitch
MrProphylactic
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
296 Posts
September 04 2011 12:53 GMT
#914
On September 04 2011 19:37 WarChimp wrote:
I feel kinda bad now that I am voting what everyone else is. But I came into this thread to say 7. cxd4
Let's get on with this!

Why would you feel bad if you think it is the best move . or are you saying you voted it just because everyone else did ? I would suggest if you are not going to take the time to look at the position and acutally think , and read the analysis people are providing to come up with an intellectually based vote, then do not vote at all . voting out of pure democratic-influence is quite silly imo, if that is in fact what you mean; also there is no hurry until the deadline(which is what btw ?)
"The Beauty of a move is not in its appearance, but the thought behind it" Nimzovitch
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
September 04 2011 13:02 GMT
#915
7. 0-0

+ Show Spoiler +
I hate the position we are at right now, so messy... If we played 0-0 on move 5 we won't be in such of position. I first thought cxd is a good move, and it is I think. But later black and threat Bb4+, and we might have to move our king into the open and can't castle anymore. That knight on e4 is such a threat, I don't like our positioning at all.
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
MrProphylactic
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
296 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 13:19:31
September 04 2011 13:11 GMT
#916
On September 04 2011 22:02 chesshaha wrote:
7. 0-0

+ Show Spoiler +
I hate the position we are at right now, so messy... If we played 0-0 on move 5 we won't be in such of position. I first thought cxd is a good move, and it is I think. But later black and threat Bb4+, and we might have to move our king into the open and can't castle anymore. That knight on e4 is such a threat, I don't like our positioning at all.

+ Show Spoiler +
imo white still has the natural advantage from moving first , or should I say natural initiative . I do not care for the position as much after cxd4 as qe2 , as I have said but it is a matter of style and what I think gives us the most winning chances against a player of NG5's strength. I would prefer keeping the tension myself , but others have provided mainline theory which I admit I am a little rusty in the central variation of the ruy lopez , not really a e4 player much anymore in tournaments . In response to chesshaha , our weak d4 point will be the greatest annoyance possibly after cxd4 (later in the game) I will have to look at 0-0 here
"The Beauty of a move is not in its appearance, but the thought behind it" Nimzovitch
Shootist
Profile Joined May 2011
Singapore405 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-04 14:16:58
September 04 2011 14:16 GMT
#917
cxd4

+ Show Spoiler +
in short I feel more comfortable without an opponent's pawn so far up the board (should black capture it in this game). Easier to move the knight later as well.
Picklesicle
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States64 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-05 21:13:09
September 04 2011 14:22 GMT
#918
Deleted due to bad bad bad analysis. I'll repost an analysis on cxd now that I'm actually paying attention, eh?

Sorry, all.
Sc1pio
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States823 Posts
September 04 2011 14:45 GMT
#919
7. cxd4
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's there are few. " -Shunro Suzuki | fortuna fortes adiuvat
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
September 04 2011 15:51 GMT
#920
7. Bxc6

+ Show Spoiler +
7. 0-0 appears to me to drop a pawn, and 7. cxd4 gives a very nasty check that isn't much fun either. If we take the Knight first, we alleviate the threat and get our pawn back.
Write your own song!
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