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On December 21 2012 22:47 OmniEulogy wrote:
I was intending to switch my vote back to Cora after Spag cleared himself because until that point I hadn't actually thought of him as scummy in the least. but I said it a few times, Aqua's case was much stronger than Spag's defense in my eyes.
Aquas case didnt actually win me over. (Similar to I believe ?FatChunk?)
FWIW, the case was too aggressive, and thus, manifested itself with severe bias.
Though solid points were dashed throughout the case, the overall tone suggested turning a blind eye to anything that suggest Spag was innocent.
In my opinion, a rational case needs to present both points of view. It is from here, that a fair and well-reasoned case can reach a conclusion.
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@ALL
Do you think there is a difference between a scum read and a scum tell?
On December 21 2012 23:37 Sylencia wrote:
I think a scum read is based on the way someone behaves and interpreting it as being suspicious
On December 21 2012 23:37 Sylencia wrote:
whereas a scum tell is like a read but it's more or less accepted in the community as being a misplay that reveals your role.
I think you are getting closer to the MONEY ANSWER
Let me open your thought process a little wider, and re-phrase the question in more detail.
@ALL
(1)
Consider a townie point of view:
-What is a scum read
-What is a scum tell
(2)
Consider a mafia point of view:
-What is a scum read
-What is a scum tell
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So I took a look through some filters and the person who stuck out most to me was SHZ. Just a quick lookthrough of his posts shows you that he been very wishy-washy on everything and committed to absolutely nothing. In my mind there are only 2 options for this sort of play, 1 is a timid towny who is unsure of themselves, 2 is scum trying to leave themselves options to try and work their way out of bad commitments. Since I believe this is SHZ's first game I am somewhat inclined to think that he is just a timid towny, but then I look at his voting and his justification behind them (read: NONE) and it seems he doesn't care at all about who gets lynched. Townys should worry very much about who gets lynched because they do not want to lynch town, even first time players know this and typically show that they care about who gets lynched.
His votes are a big issue with me and I read them as scummy right now because to me it seems SHZ does not care who gets lynched (it is typical of mafia to not care who gets lynched, as long as it is town getting lynched), look at his vote posts:
On December 19 2012 18:33 shz wrote:
So if we need another wagon to jump, or not, to jump on:
##Vote: Mocsta
Why?
He/She did start a discussion, but I don't think that was all that useful, other than proving him being active and establish an alibi. Questions like the seafood one waste time and distract from substantial discussion. Also he/she is quite fast on "reading" someone as Town. Additionally he/she asked repeatedly about Mafia strategies.
This is no way a waterproof case, but I think its a start and something we could work with.
On December 20 2012 13:17 shz wrote:
I would have done it tomorrow but I can do it now I guess.
##Unvote
##Vote cDgCorazon
On December 21 2012 07:25 shz wrote:
It seems like we have the strongest case against Spag at the moment. I will still keepmy eye on Cora, but for now:
##unvote
##Vote Spaghetticus
@Aqua:
If you did not argue that, then its all good. Of course rational not equals town, but its not equal mafia either. Its neutral.
He takes every chance to hop on whatever bandwagon is popular at the moment, providing no reason for being on any of them. Given this I think he is the person I am most suspicious of at the moment and want to see some real reads and commitment, not wishy-washy posts that don't commit himself to anything.
@SHZ
Why did you jump on every bandwagon without giving any reasons at all for why you think those players are scummy? Do you have any current scum reads that you would be willing to push instead of sheeping?
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On December 22 2012 00:04 Kickstart wrote:
@SHZ
Why did you jump on every bandwagon without giving any reasons at all for why you think those players are scummy? Do you have any current scum reads that you would be willing to push instead of sheeping?
I do not mean this to be facetious; however
I was genuinely not expecting that type of post from you.
Its thrown a spanner in the works for me.
I am going to have to digest this before jumping to a conclusion.
[Sarcasm is not intended]x2
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On December 21 2012 23:47 Mocsta wrote:
(1)
Consider a townie point of view:
-What is a scum read
-What is a scum tell
(2)
Consider a mafia point of view:
-What is a scum read
-What is a scum tell
From a town perspective, a scum read is when someone has not contributed enough new information to the discussion, and has only repeated one or two weak arguments over and over again. They refuse to see the error of their ways. Their arguments are mis-constructed and are without reason. They are afraid to call people out (a mistake I have made that might have made you all think I was scum, but I already have 2-3 people I would like to question once the Day cycle starts again) in fear of being called out themselves. That is why they are more likely to bandwagon.
I kind of jumbled the town perspective into one, so here is the mafia side:
When you ask "From a mafia point of view, what is a scum read/tell?", I'm going to assume it means ways that they have to paint others in a negative light to keep them from getting lynched. Remember, if the mafia have to accuse someone who is town of being scum, the townie has to make a ridiculous error, or their case has to be a very good lie in order to sway the town to vote for them. So they would need to have a logical post, but it would also need to turn a lie into a really strong argument. They need to convince the town that this person is scum, but they cannot go too far, for fear they are trying to push a lynch and get a townie voted. Another thing they have to worry about is pushing too hard for a lynch of a townie. If someone is a driving force behind a lynch, and that player flips town, they're going to have an immense amount of suspicion put on them. To them, a scum tell (which would be a reason to accuse a townie of being scum) would be someone who is lurking, someone who has only done things to anger others, and people who have already been given suspicion. These people are either easy targets, or have already been pressured upon (which would make them a bandwagoner).
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I think that my suspicion of Omni may have been hasty. There's a few posts I'd like you to explain, but other than those you come out clean.
FatChunk and Corazon I'm still having doubts on noob vs scum, hopefully they contribute more during d2.
I think shz and Orangeremi need to be looked at more, I'll definately write something on shz. I agree with what Kick said about it (sniped me) but shz is also hardcore blending in. He hasn't taken any positions on anything and is being mostly ignored by everyone, which just bothers me. He's also been basically active lurking all day.
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On December 20 2012 19:36 Aquanim wrote:
##Vote: Spaghetticus
I'm not messing around with pressure votes anymore, this is a vote with intent to lynch. All aboard!
@Everyone: If you're not on this wagon you'd better have a really good reason why.
I would like to say, in Aqua's defense. He did call for a lack of sheep and bandwagons on his vote for spag. He would have been fine with one vote. While this does not change my opinion of him, I think he deserves to have this reminded to you guys.
@Aqua On the issue of voting me without really meaning it: What did a vote do that a FOS would not have done? Did you need to react that hasty? There were other measure you could have come back to.
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Corazon.. thank you for answering this with the integrity of a fellow townie.
Spaghetticus final list did not go to waste.
Your post is obvious town, just in the confidence between when writing about town perspective. When you target mafia, and identify great points.. they are still skewed to a townie mentality.
I purposely did not quote.. such that others would go back and re-read it. (OK here you go for lazy Sons of Guns)
+ Show Spoiler +On December 22 2012 00:25 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2012 23:47 Mocsta wrote:
(1)
Consider a townie point of view:
-What is a scum read
-What is a scum tell
(2)
Consider a mafia point of view:
-What is a scum read
-What is a scum tell From a town perspective, a scum read is when someone has not contributed enough new information to the discussion, and has only repeated one or two weak arguments over and over again. They refuse to see the error of their ways. Their arguments are mis-constructed and are without reason. They are afraid to call people out (a mistake I have made that might have made you all think I was scum, but I already have 2-3 people I would like to question once the Day cycle starts again) in fear of being called out themselves. That is why they are more likely to bandwagon. I kind of jumbled the town perspective into one, so here is the mafia side: When you ask "From a mafia point of view, what is a scum read/tell?", I'm going to assume it means ways that they have to paint others in a negative light to keep them from getting lynched. Remember, if the mafia have to accuse someone who is town of being scum, the townie has to make a ridiculous error, or their case has to be a very good lie in order to sway the town to vote for them. So they would need to have a logical post, but it would also need to turn a lie into a really strong argument. They need to convince the town that this person is scum, but they cannot go too far, for fear they are trying to push a lynch and get a townie voted. Another thing they have to worry about is pushing too hard for a lynch of a townie. If someone is a driving force behind a lynch, and that player flips town, they're going to have an immense amount of suspicion put on them. To them, a scum tell (which would be a reason to accuse a townie of being scum) would be someone who is lurking, someone who has only done things to anger others, and people who have already been given suspicion. These people are either easy targets, or have already been pressured upon (which would make them a bandwagoner).
I agree with many things you have said .. in particular
On December 22 2012 00:25 cDgCorazon wrote:
When you ask "From a mafia point of view, what is a scum read/tell?", I'm going to assume it means ways that they have to paint others in a negative light to keep them from getting lynched. Remember, if the mafia have to accuse someone who is town of being scum, the townie has to make a ridiculous error, or their case has to be a very good lie in order to sway the town to vote for them. So they would need to have a logical post, but it would also need to turn a lie into a really strong argument. They need to convince the town that this person is scum, but they cannot go too far, for fear they are trying to push a lynch and get a townie voted.
@ALL
Please consider what I have asked us to discuss regarding scum tells/reads.
And then consider these two posts. Let me know if you find anything interesting. [I have quoted them in their entirety to show I am not creating or fabricating a biased opinion]
(1)
On December 21 2012 20:58 Chromatically wrote:
@Omni
Elaborate on Mocsta?
On December 21 2012 21:23 OmniEulogy wrote:
no problem Chrom, I think Mocsta has been fairly good at posting his reasons and logic behind most of his moves so far in this game. He's posted a lot and I can't really say much of it has seemed scummy. He's also agreed with and worked with Aqua on some cases which could be him trying to hitch a ride but at the moment I have no reason to doubt him and there is a LOT to go through and still not have any solid scum reads on him.
He generally feeds off what other people say and starts conversations with them to try and scum hunt without leading a player in a direction which I also think is a pretty big sign of a helpful townie.
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(2)
On December 21 2012 22:24 Mocsta wrote:
LOL!
@Omni
Elaborate on Chromatically.
On December 21 2012 22:40 OmniEulogy wrote:I feel like you two are having a conversation through me. lol For very similar reasons as you Mocsta I believe Chrom is town. He was the one who originally made the case against Corazon which at that point was the correct move imo. He advanced our conversations and gave us a lot of information, even with this lynch it has still been helpful in clearing some of the confusion I had after I went over all of the posts. He pressures well, he asks good questions. and again there is a lot to go through but I couldn't find any real scum tells. He made his major cases against FC and Cora and they were both very well thought out imo. Very easy to see him as town at this point. and idk if I take offense to that or not Mocsta  but if you see an error in the way I've said I see things please let me know. That goes for anybody.
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On December 22 2012 00:35 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 19:36 Aquanim wrote:
##Vote: Spaghetticus
I'm not messing around with pressure votes anymore, this is a vote with intent to lynch. All aboard!
@Everyone: If you're not on this wagon you'd better have a really good reason why. I would like to say, in Aqua's defense. He did call for a lack of sheep and bandwagons on his vote for spag. He would have been fine with one vote. While this does not change my opinion of him, I think he deserves to have this reminded to you guys. @Aqua On the issue of voting me without really meaning it: What did a vote do that a FOS would not have done? Did you need to react that hasty? There were other measure you could have come back to.
I was going to save this for my later post.
BUT.. im tired.. and to be honest.. i am finding this scum read/tell development way more fun than trawling through the thread pages.
... Corazon.. Aquanim and Chromatically (heloknight) have actually played in the same newbie game before (XXXI).
Ironically.. Aquanim was VT, and Chromatically was a Scum, Framer. (Ironic, because some may argue the state has barely changed).
Have a read of Aquanims Hammer Case (against Kickstarter)
Ultimately, he lost that battle and was lynched.
However, to me.. there is a LOT of similarities between that hammer case, and his his hammer case vs Spaghetticus.
If you view his filter, the aggression in giving someone a vote is also there for all to see. Its just his style of play as a townie.
Thus, I view Aqua is a townie, set in stone... with his ways.
I bring this up, because if you agree with my rational, that Aqua is in indeed a townie.. your energy may be spent better on other targets.
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Guys.. see you in the morning.
Sorry for throwing some of my stuff away before the night deadline. This was the minor stuff anyways.
Will have my hammer case ready to go for the deadline, I suggest you all do the same.
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@Omni
Here are the posts that I'd like you to explain:
On December 20 2012 09:29 OmniEulogy wrote:
Hey guys, I just got home sorry for being so late.
After reading through everything first and foremost
##Vote: cDgCorazon He slipped up so badly I can't believe it was a mistake. He actually claimed mafia after an already terrible start while being defensive and being overly cautious of most of his posts. I think Theesr's constant back and forth with him made him slip up.
He constantly says who benefits from a 1 day Lynch. Town does in this situation even if we lynch him and he turns out town. If this happens I'm almost positive Theesr is scum, he's been trying to spread confusion and is openly claiming he doesn't want to post a lot or explain himself. Extremely scummy behavior. If it wasn't for the fact that Corazon literally said he was mafia and didn't even correct it until somebody else brought it up (meaning in his mind the sentence made sense) then I would be trying to start a hunt on Theesr.
The only thing making me think Theesr is just a bad town is the way he's been aggressively going for Corazon, on D1 I would never expect two mafia players to try and lynch each other they just can't afford to.
I believe at the moment our best bet is to lynch Corazon at the end of D1, see who jumps on the bandwagon and if he flips scum we'll be able to look at who tried to defend him, who eventually gave in, and who was set on lynching him right away. If he flips town and I've made a mistake on my reads than Theesr is most likely scum and used the fact that Corazon was not posting comfortably at the start to secure a town lynch D1.
Either way we as town get an extremely large amount of information if we lynch Corazon at the moment. Unless proven otherwise Corazon's slips have made him 100% scum in my mind.
I'm going to make something to eat and then I'll look over everything again just to make sure I've read everything correctly.
You make it sound like your entire justification for voting Corazon is his "slip". Why did you find it convincing enough to call him "100% scum"? Do you really not see how a townie could have written that? Supposed slip in question:
+ Show Spoiler +On December 20 2012 06:25 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 06:21 threesr wrote:
So you make your voting decisions based on who you like or dislike? Now you are just trying to play the victim card. I have made one voting decision in my time as mafia, and it was a vote to defend myself, not on who I liked or not. Make a useful post, not all of this silly questioning and stuff.
The other post, which I brought up earlier:
On December 21 2012 00:15 OmniEulogy wrote:Alright. This will be my first time doing anything with multiple posts in it let alone have it be this big... if I mess up and hide anything in spoilers I apologize in advance lol  + Show Spoiler +On December 20 2012 23:20 Spaghetticus wrote:Bugger tomorrow IDGAF Show nested quote +To play devils advocate for Theesr on his stance on lurkers. I could see scum using LAL to their advantage and making us waste most of D1 while they play it safe and then bandwagon a lurker, we lynch said lurker he turns up to be town and if things have really gone poorly we learn nothing and scum comes out ahead of us on D1.
I agree with Kickstart entirely when he says we should push scum reads over policy lynches. Truthfully I'm more worried about anybody who thinks we should lynch lurkers without second thought. While I actually liked the last part and even took a note in the satisfactory column, Omni does little here but say a bunch of safe stuff. He came across as a little bold when he proclaimed his disapproval of thoughtless lynching, but in retrospect this is actually a very safe move.
Why did you claim VT? All claiming VT does is expose to the NK. You've answered this before , but it doesn't justify your claim. Do you just not understand why VTs shouldn't claim?
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Hi.. Conveniently.. I couldn't sleep
@Chromatically.. please explain to me why VTs shouldnt claim?
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please detail why he is exposed to NK? I was under the opinion, mafia knew their team. Thus the remainder is of town alliance? The logic appears flawed to me? Any reason you would advocate this?
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Let's say that the mafia is looking at the remaining 9 townies for their nk. With two blues (as an example), mafia has a 2/9 chance to hit a blue. If one of the townies claims VT, the mafia won't kill that townie and their chance of sniping a blue goes up to 2/8 or 1/4. It obviously gets worse if multiple VTs claim.
There's also just no town reason to do it. It doesn't benefit town at all.
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quick thing about claiming VT. You would have forced me to role claim about 20 minutes after I had made that original post. I saw it coming (not from you in particular but knew somebody was going to come after me after the lynch) so doing it 10 minutes before D1 ended or 10 minutes into N1 doesn't really make the largest difference. If I don't role claim early in that situation imo D2 I'm the easiest lynch at that point in time.
Anyway on to Corazon, as I mentioned in the quote you posted his starting game was bad, as I was going to sleep and reading everything over he was already becoming scum in my mind, I woke up and read through 6~ more pages of him making bad posts, excuses and no real answers to anything and then posts that he's mafia. I honestly just had a hard time anybody would be so nervous that even while being careful they would post so many scummy things.
as per what he means about the NK from what I take from it and the only thing that makes sense is that scum will avoid targeting me because they know I'm not blue. If that isn't what he meant about the NK then I don't know.
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ha you beat me to it but at least I understood what you meant and I agree. I still would have claimed as soon as you questioned me though.
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Germany2687 Posts
On December 22 2012 00:04 Kickstart wrote:
@SHZ
Why did you jump on every bandwagon without giving any reasons at all for why you think those players are scummy? Do you have any current scum reads that you would be willing to push instead of sheeping?
"Whatever bandwagon is popular right now" is not true. My mocsta vote was to push for an discussion and I did explain my Corazone vote before. If you want to quote, don quote out of context.
+ Show Spoiler [Corazone reasons] +On December 20 2012 11:19 shz wrote:
The question is, what information do we get if we lynch one of the current suspects.
Corazon
If Mafia:
- threesr most likely not scum.
- FatChunk unknown, but showing scummy tendencies as he/she did kinda defend Corazon and plans on voting to lynch threesr.
If Town:
- threesr not off the hook, but still not confirmed either.
- FatChunk unknown, but leaning towards town, for the same reason as stated before.
FatChunk
If Mafia:
- Corazone possible mafia, but not confirmed.
- threesr most likely not scum.
If Town:
- Corazone still possible mafia.
- threesr still possbile mafia.
threesr
If Mafia:
- Likely town: Mocsta, Corazon (Very likely town), and FatChunk
If Town:
- Corazone still possible mafia.
- FatChunk still possible mafia.
I'm starting to think that Corazon is indeed the best vote at the moment. On December 20 2012 12:53 shz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 11:50 Chromatically wrote:
@shz
We should be lynching the player who is most likely to flip scum, not based on any information we might gain. We can look at association stuff after the flip, but we want to focus on lynching scum before. Based solely on who will flip scum, who do you want to lynch and can you move your vote there? Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 12:48 Chromatically wrote:
@Spag
Our objective as town is to lynch mafia. What we should not be doing is lynching for information instead of lynching mafia. The information gained from a flip is not great enough that we should lynch a townier player. If you look at what shz's post actually says, there's very little actual conclusions that could be drawn. Most of it is just "x is possible scum". All of it is just worrying about the d2 lynch, which we should do on d2 instead of now.
I dislike your post saying that we should "expect a town lynch". Good towns can find scum d1. Good players can be correct in their reads with over "40%" certainty. We we will never be able to be sure, so we have to single some guys out, discuss, search for tells, and lynch one. And I think it is to our benifit to also include possible information we can get from it in our decisions. We will most certainly lynch town too, so better make it worthwhile in terms of information. This is not me saying we should lynch town for information, it is saying we should always keep in mind that our lynch can flip as town, so better take the safe bet and at least get some information out of, if the worst case will happen. I think all three are good (for the amount of information we have) picks. Show nested quote +On December 20 2012 11:56 OmniEulogy wrote:
That is true but I think he's saying all three of them are the top scum picks and then based on information we gain from each of them the one we benefit the greatest from is Corazon from his list. Excactly.
But after I read the reasons to vote for Spaghetti, it made sense. Of course it didn't matter anyway because he was dead at that point, but whatever.
At the moment I'm leaning forwards FatChunk. But not sure at all at the moment, and I'm busy as fuck so I don't think I can contribute more tonight, I am working on a post with my thoughs on anyone but I have to go now~~. Sorry for the lack of contributions. I will look into FatChunk and see if my suspicion holds true. And I still have the feeling that out of the big mass contributors, there is a scum somewhere.Chroma, Mocsta, etc.
Do whatever you think of it.
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On December 22 2012 01:47 Chromatically wrote:
Let's say that the mafia is looking at the remaining 9 townies for their nk. With two blues (as an example), mafia has a 2/9 chance to hit a blue. If one of the townies claims VT, the mafia won't kill that townie and their chance of sniping a blue goes up to 2/8 or 1/4. It obviously gets worse if multiple VTs claim.
There's also just no town reason to do it. It doesn't benefit town at all.
You have asked Omni to present information to questions asked prior.
@Chromatically.
Do you think Omnis motivates are town or scum oriented? Why?
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@Omni
Why did you think that someone would be coming after you after the lynch?
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Shz..
I realise I have spammed tonight.
I also do not have a problem if you are suspicious of me.
Please be, at least that means you will read my content in more detail.
Regardless.. if you were to only read ONE of my posts tonight. I urge you to explore in detail.. this one.
Scum Read/Tells
If that catches your eye, another of potential merit is:
Aquanim Meta-Read
Best of luck with your decision making.
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because Spag made it his last case to try and convince somebody I was scum. He was town its not hard to assume I'll become a target. Also something I'm painfully aware of and I'm sure everybody else has noticed as well is that when I mapped out who should be town and why I don't actually have a place on that list. I had tried to help scum hunt and give my thoughts D1 but given that I didn't defend anybody I just need to use my consistent play and the fact that I am VT. Poor planning on my part but I think the information we got isn't the worst trade off.
Hopefully everyone realizes that at the time all my scum reads and the one tell on Corazon made sense. However I wasn't about to let us waste 72 hours to get myself lynched and we end up with 3 dead townies going into N2.
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EPT
