EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXXIII - Page 36
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threesr
73 Posts
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
On December 21 2012 19:48 OmniEulogy wrote: ... Shz fits into a middle ground for me. I am neutral about him for the time being. I'll need to look through the filter again. ... Read on shz? By now you should have had enough time to look through his filter. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On December 22 2012 02:00 Mocsta wrote: You have asked Omni to present information to questions asked prior. @Chromatically. Do you think Omnis motivates are town or scum oriented? Why? @Chromatically. Since you pestering Shz for a question you asked. Care to answer of this one please? | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On December 22 2012 02:06 Mocsta wrote: Shz.. I realise I have spammed tonight. I also do not have a problem if you are suspicious of me. Please be, at least that means you will read my content in more detail. Regardless.. if you were to only read ONE of my posts tonight. I urge you to explore in detail.. this one. Scum Read/Tells If that catches your eye, another of potential merit is: Aquanim Meta-Read Best of luck with your decision making. Ensuring this does not get lost in sea of posts. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On December 22 2012 00:35 cDgCorazon wrote: @Aqua On the issue of voting me without really meaning it: What did a vote do that a FOS would not have done? Did you need to react that hasty? There were other measure you could have come back to. I think that a FoS is pretty much worthless. A vote commits you a lot more, and if everybody commits to things scum have to make mistakes. | ||
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FatChunk
Canada93 Posts
@Mocsta: Scum read is an opinion on someone and a scum tell is a specific incident that occurs which hints at scum behaviour. With regards to your post on Aqua being town, I think I might agree. I may have misinterpreted a possible scum read based on overly aggressive and incomplete arguments, and pushing a town lynch. I did not know the information about him being an aggressive townie in the past, and if this is truly his style, then it seems like he is being consistent. Will leave it at that for now. Mocsta: Why do you find it important to discuss what a scum read and a scum tell is? Why do you value this information? I'm very busy and am trying to get a couple posts in per day. Will try to be more active as I will be on holidays as of tomorrow. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
I want to tell you now, but will have to wait till deadline. Trust me.. its all explained (hopefully to a standard ppl accept) | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On December 22 2012 06:26 Aquanim wrote: For the record, about that case on Kick in XXXI day 1 - nobody much jumped on it, and I weakened on it myself over night one. Kick turned out to be scum in the end, and the feedback for me from every coach, observer and host was to have more confidence in my scumreads. Which is what I've been trying for this game. Aquanim.. this is precisely why i said Townies can make mistakes, when talking about Spagehtticus. Mafia were very lucky with that, because you found the motive yourself, and by pressuring him.. he slipped things that I picked up. Thus, in my opinion mafia were not responsible for your actions. (They definitely assisted with mine though.. as I believe it was their pressure that gave me the qutoes I used) Woudl have to double check which posts I sourced from though to confirm. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On December 21 2012 00:15 OmniEulogy wrote: Alright. This will be my first time doing anything with multiple posts in it let alone have it be this big... if I mess up and hide anything in spoilers I apologize in advance lol  + Show Spoiler + On December 20 2012 23:20 Spaghetticus wrote: Bugger tomorrow IDGAF While I actually liked the last part and even took a note in the satisfactory column, Omni does little here but say a bunch of safe stuff. He came across as a little bold when he proclaimed his disapproval of thoughtless lynching, but in retrospect this is actually a very safe move. ty, ofc. I'm going to play safe in my first game as VT in mafia. + Show Spoiler + (points finger at Threesr and Corazon) Another safe play. These guys were destined to get it. I predicted the shitstorm (though admittedly I named Shz as well), if the info was available to me it was available to Omni. Targeting the weaker town is a move that a scum naturally does whether they are new or not. What would you do if you were scum? I'd play the same way I am right now but wouldn't have switched my vote from Corazon. Draws unneeded attention. As well as advise my team mates not to make any large plays until day 2 and if possible and there are 3 scum discuss throwing one under the bus themselves N2/D3 to establish one or both of the other scum as good townies. imo pretty basic stuff. + Show Spoiler + If he latched onto Corazon because he realized he would be extremely easy to put him under suspicion. (followed by Corazon actually stating he's Mafia) I can't really see Corazon being town but if he is and has just made every mistake he could then my reason behind Theesr being shitty town would disappear and he would become my #1 scum read instead of #1 shitty town See how if Corazon comes up innocent (which I think he will) then Omni has set the stage to move onto the next easiest player. Even if these players were scum they would pose very little threat. This is positioning for an incredibly strong day three for the mafia, leaving 2-3 strong players, a bunch of lurkers, and zero leads. I've already thought about what happens if Corazon comes up innocent and shz and myself had a nice talk about that earlier. The information we get if he is innocent would still help town. I also like how you take a post from early on in the game and apply its rationale to a point after we have more information. + Show Spoiler + Also Chunk is the only one who has tried to defend Corazon but hasn't come completely out and said he thinks he's innocent, just that with ALL the evidence he still can't vote for him? I'm going to stick with Corazon as my #1 scum read but Chunk seems suspicious just based on that to me. More bagging on the lowest players. The big three are common knowledge and a safe sell at the point of writing the above quote. Omni continues to say absolutely nothing at all risky. He is waiting for things to be safe and then stating the obvious. He openly displays all the signs of posing bluster I resent to demonstrate myself. Why be risky when I am town. scumhunt and give my input is all I've been doing so far in D1. You caught me. doing my role as I intended. + Show Spoiler + If anybody can clearly give us a way to gain more information while at the same time getting rid of suspicion of Corazon I am all for it. I don't want to lynch somebody who could be town just because we all tunnel him. Let's try and get some information from other lurkers. What do they think of the current situation ect. See this? This is someone that has the gall to ask for someone to do the very thing I have been doing, then nails me for it (but only after someone else does... can't be too safe). Clear difference in somebody who scumhunts and somebody who has posted fluff all game, gets voted on for it, and for his defense posts more pointless fluff that doesn't answer anything. What information have you given us exactly? have you seen the results of all of your posts? Any information come out of them? nope. + Show Spoiler + This defense of his vote almost seems like he's committing to a lynch, until you realise he was just waiting for a better lynch for scum to present itself. Yes I believe I'm a bigger prize than Corazon's entirely compromised town play, because I have a better position, and because I play more like a blue role would (less aggression). I still believe he's scum. There is no better lynch than scum. Other scum =/= better. + Show Spoiler + I was ready to tunnel Corazon until your horrid defense to Aqua's case. 100% believe he is scum. Doesn't mean I'm not going to look for other scum though. My defense was not horrid. I take offense. You repeat everything that he is attacking you for. it's horrible. If it wasn't I wouldn't need to be typing right now. + Show Spoiler + and if by bandwagon you mean make the case and stick with it for 30~ hours while continuing to bring up new material that hasn't been said. Yup total bandwagon. I ignore the original vote on him as a way to gauge how he reacts and gets conversation started. He slips - argues with Threesr and then I make the 3rd vote on him (2nd with evidence) and push for others to also vote and put pressure on him. On a person which the zeitgeist favours as a bandwagon. I don't care how long you spent blustering at the obvious pickups of non-town behaviour. The guy's level of play was inadequate and the case made itself. Do you really think his door would not have been knocked down without you? He was in for pressure, from you or otherwise. You wasted your time while pretending to contribute. Scummy. pretending to contribute - putting out information nobody has stated yet and clearly YOU missed his slip. .+ Show Spoiler + I don't think I have to play this game at a higher level than simple. It establishes me as town, helps in scum hunts and I give my input about how people are acting and how I feel about them. Why would I try to be more complex than that in my first game? I'd just confuse people and myself. "I don't know if I'm doing the right thing, so I will assume that I am and not try to improve my play, as playing dumb will convince people I'm town." I know I'm playing D1 1st mafia game ever, I also know I have absolutely no feedback on my play so far. I also know I've built a case based on Corazon both being scum and flipping VT for information (again you are more than welcome to see shz's post for that) I said it myself but it wasn't very clear. He made it make a lot more sense. + Show Spoiler + am actually genuinely impressed with your expression here, regardless of your alignment. The problem I have is that you are pushing to lynch me and my two best town reads because of your failure to look deeper. Try harder. When you address me or speak of me in any way, please refrain from throwing emotional garbage about. It makes me like you more if you don't. Tell me what's wrong with what I said, not how wrong it is. Words without reason are meaningless fluff, or peripheral associative priming depending on who the listener is. A townie should have logic behind his claims. Or just not give any input at all and pretend to be helping I guess. Then get called out for it and still post the fluff you hate. I didn't get emotional stop getting so defensive because I called your defense trash. which it was. Horrid really. + Show Spoiler + Rebuke of Mocsta's Early Town Tells: He was potentially misleading town, and setting himself up to take control. I stopped him the same way I did SS, though I did not make a case out of it because there wasn't one. Theory of Town and Scum: I have not stated my thoughts but that does not mean I haven't devoted a lot of time developing them. I'm confirming with a large degree of confidence that neither Threesr nor Corazon are scum. This degree of confidence is a big deal for a meticulous SOAB like me. I've determined that Chromatiacally, Aquinim, Cakepie, and Mocsta will need to be dealt with later rather than now if they happen to be scum. That's narrowed the list of lynchable candidates down to six for me, this is no small analysis! Your assertion that I have not developed any theory is BS. Rather than flaunt every thought that tickles my ol' brain I know my understanding will only get better with time, and voting now is pretentious or whimsical. Asking Kickstart for meta reads: You say this wasn’t useful. Surely you could see the potential of such a move? I am lighting a fire under a lurker, and attempting to mine a new vein of data. As far as post efficiency goes you can’t fault me on this. “So Spag thinks that the best way to get town back to scumhunting is to defend someone under pressure, not make a case himself? Words fail me.” In this particular instance this is exactly what I thought. I don’t have any really solid cases, I am still narrowing down suspects. Any case I would post at that point would likely fall on deaf ears and I really believed I could benefit town by taking pressure off of the obvious targets and spreading the suspicion around. "Spag's whole "I'm defending Corazon but still happy to vote for him" BS is a classic scum move too - keeping his options open for new developments so he doesn't have to contradict himself later. I'm not saying that town would never do this, but it's pretty damn scummy." I am no longer happy to vote for Corazon which I believe I expressed in the same post. Through writing the post I came to the conclusion that he is the towniest person here, and I will stand by that statement. I am sorry I did not go back through and edit for consistency, I was tired after doing a LOT of legwork for this game. You’re welcome. Where in that is anything not just smoke and mirrors? You don't answer a single thing. You still don't take a firm stance on anything other than ignoring other reads, that you have stayed consistent with, and you still don't offer any scum hunting but instead you say you still don't have enough information to even post on who you think might be scum. You were called out, I didn't think much of it, you returned with nothing, I voted. Aqua's case against you was much stronger than your defense of yourself. Here once again is the part of the post where OE claims VT. This happens before the Spag flip, and while OE's vote was still on Spag. In this very same post, he attacks Spag and does not change his mind about Spag at any point before the town flip. When I ask him why he claimed, here is his justification and clarification: On December 22 2012 01:52 OmniEulogy wrote: quick thing about claiming VT. You would have forced me to role claim about 20 minutes after I had made that original post. I saw it coming (not from you in particular but knew somebody was going to come after me after the lynch) so doing it 10 minutes before D1 ended or 10 minutes into N1 doesn't really make the largest difference. If I don't role claim early in that situation imo D2 I'm the easiest lynch at that point in time. Anyway on to Corazon, as I mentioned in the quote you posted his starting game was bad, as I was going to sleep and reading everything over he was already becoming scum in my mind, I woke up and read through 6~ more pages of him making bad posts, excuses and no real answers to anything and then posts that he's mafia. I honestly just had a hard time anybody would be so nervous that even while being careful they would post so many scummy things. as per what he means about the NK from what I take from it and the only thing that makes sense is that scum will avoid targeting me because they know I'm not blue. If that isn't what he meant about the NK then I don't know. On December 22 2012 02:21 OmniEulogy wrote: because Spag made it his last case to try and convince somebody I was scum. He was town its not hard to assume I'll become a target. Also something I'm painfully aware of and I'm sure everybody else has noticed as well is that when I mapped out who should be town and why I don't actually have a place on that list. I had tried to help scum hunt and give my thoughts D1 but given that I didn't defend anybody I just need to use my consistent play and the fact that I am VT. Poor planning on my part but I think the information we got isn't the worst trade off. Hopefully everyone realizes that at the time all my scum reads and the one tell on Corazon made sense. However I wasn't about to let us waste 72 hours to get myself lynched and we end up with 3 dead townies going into N2. Let's examine Omni's claims: - he voted for Spag and had a scum read on him up until the lynch - he claimed VT before the flip, while he had a scumread on Spag - his justification for the claim was that he expected to come under pressure the next day - he clarified that he expected to come under pressure specifically as a result of Spag's case + because he expected Spag's case to put suspicion on him, he actually expected Spag to flip town (a case from flipped scum would practically confirm him as town instead) Why would a town Omni, who is voting for Spag and has a clear scumread on him, expect Spag to flip town? He wouldn't. Why would a scum Omni, trying to mislynch Spag, expect Spag to flip town? Because he knows that Spag is actually town. Other Reasons Why OmniEulogy is Scum On December 20 2012 09:29 OmniEulogy wrote: Hey guys, I just got home sorry for being so late. After reading through everything first and foremost ##Vote: cDgCorazon He slipped up so badly I can't believe it was a mistake. He actually claimed mafia after an already terrible start while being defensive and being overly cautious of most of his posts. I think Theesr's constant back and forth with him made him slip up. He constantly says who benefits from a 1 day Lynch. Town does in this situation even if we lynch him and he turns out town. If this happens I'm almost positive Theesr is scum, he's been trying to spread confusion and is openly claiming he doesn't want to post a lot or explain himself. Extremely scummy behavior. If it wasn't for the fact that Corazon literally said he was mafia and didn't even correct it until somebody else brought it up (meaning in his mind the sentence made sense) then I would be trying to start a hunt on Theesr. The only thing making me think Theesr is just a bad town is the way he's been aggressively going for Corazon, on D1 I would never expect two mafia players to try and lynch each other they just can't afford to. I believe at the moment our best bet is to lynch Corazon at the end of D1, see who jumps on the bandwagon and if he flips scum we'll be able to look at who tried to defend him, who eventually gave in, and who was set on lynching him right away. If he flips town and I've made a mistake on my reads than Theesr is most likely scum and used the fact that Corazon was not posting comfortably at the start to secure a town lynch D1. Either way we as town get an extremely large amount of information if we lynch Corazon at the moment. Unless proven otherwise Corazon's slips have made him 100% scum in my mind. I'm going to make something to eat and then I'll look over everything again just to make sure I've read everything correctly. Here's Omni's first real stance in the thread. The votes at this time were 2 on Corazon and 3 on threesr, and Omni puts suspicion on both of them in this post, a very safe position to take. He tries extra hard in this post to make it look like he's not sheeping by focusing on the scumslip, which really was not convincing at all. Note that he says: "Corazon's slips have made him 100% scum in my mind", not "Corazon's scummy actions". He avoids talking about the other reasons for voting Corazon almost completely, despite later saying that those were some of the reasons he voted for Cora. He's paranoid about being seen as suspicious, so he tries really hard to not look suspicious. Also starts lining up some mislynches of threesr for d2. His next real stance is his switch to Spag: On December 20 2012 21:51 OmniEulogy wrote: #Unvote ##Vote: Spaghetticus ##FoS: cDgCorazon Congrats Corazon. I still think you are scum but I'm going to hunt your buddies for the rest of the day. This post reads to me "I'm playing my game and I don't care what yours is, I'll just sit in the middle of the room so you know I'm here" And I must have missed the part where you were ever happy to vote for somebody instead of defend them without giving us any other leads. For such a big post it doesn't say very much. Please stop coaching and ask one of the real ones for help because if you are town you've just dragged me away from my top scum reads for a moment. Personally I read Mocsta as town and don't mind him trying to lead conversation for the next day and night. If he is scum the amount of talking he'll have to do will eventually make him slip up. I'll also ask you how Corazon is the towniest person here when as soon as he received a few more votes + Show Spoiler + On December 20 2012 13:27 cDgCorazon wrote: Sigh, I thought this was newbie Mafia, and all of you seem to be using strategies that newbie Mafia players shouldn't know. TL Mafia surfs, maybe? and On December 20 2012 13:28 cDgCorazon wrote: GG were the first things he said. Even if he is being sarcastic it's still just another scum tell in my eyes. You don't post a bunch of potentially scummy things, get told people think you are scum for doing it, and then do it even more. If you are town you try to convince other people that it was a mistake and give them feedback and correct your actions. That taken into account I can explain this massive post as "please don't lynch my scummate" and it all sounds pretty reasonable. Wait, what? His earlier post said that Corazon was "100% scum" in his mind. In fact, this post strongly implies that his view of Corazon hasn't changed at all. But he's fine switching from his 100% scum read to Spag? He actually says, flat out, that he was "dragged away from his top scum reads", meaning that he's voting Spag over his top scum reads. Notice the zero justification given for voting Spag. Here's the votecount at the time of his switch: + Show Spoiler + On December 20 2012 20:50 Dandel Ion wrote: Votecount: cDgCorazon (5): Chromatically, OmniEulogy, threesr, shz, Sylencia threesr (3): FatChunk, Mocsta, cDgCorazon Orangeremi (1): cakepie Spaghetticus (1): Aquanim Not voting (3): Kickstart, Orangeremi, Spaghetticus Currently, cDgCorazon is set to be lynched! ~12 hours remaining in day 1. Please PM any of your friendly neighborhood hosts if your vote is counted incorrectly. Please also "##unvote" when your vote is already on somebody, makes it easier on the votecount bitches. Remember: If you don't vote at all, you will be smitten by divine wrath. Full version: + Show Spoiler + cDgCorazon (5): threesr (3): FatChunk, Mocsta, Corazon Orangeremi (1): cakepie Spaghetticus (1): Aquanim Mocsta (0): FatChunk (0): Aquanim (0): shz (0): Not voting (4): Kickstart, Orangeremi, Spaghetticus At this point, it was looking pretty likely that either Corazon or threesr would get lynched. So Omni switches off of his top scumread onto a person with only one vote. This really demonstrates that he didn't care about who was lynched, By switching, he made the vote closely divided between Corazon, threesr, and Spag, allowing any one of them to be lynched by a few votes. Apart from that, Omni has done nothing. He hasn't had any original scumreads at all. Look at his latest reads post: On December 21 2012 19:48 OmniEulogy wrote: Alright, so to get more conversation going I'm going to go over pretty much everything I believe we've learned from D1. Reads I'll start off with Corazon. After re-reading everything he's said a few times I believe I owe him an apology. As he defended Spag while the vote was on him I'm willing to say I believe he is town. He stuck with his vote on Theesr the entire time. I am willing to overlook every mistake up to this point in his posting and trust that what ever he says from now on is from the mouth of a townie. I believe strong town reads are Mocsta, Chromatically, and Aquanim. If Aquanim were scum, he didn't need to try to get Spag lynched to save Corazon, as Corazon defended Spag and imo proved his innocence. If Aqua were scum he could have sat back and let us lynch Cora. - same thing happens N1 but his name isn't out there for starting the lynch. For this I believe Aqua is town. FC's actions at the end of D1 still throw me off a little bit. On one hand he's defending him (much too late) and if he were scum and knew Spag would turn up town it would make it easy for him to try and give a last minute case about why he thinks he's innocent. Hard to tell as he makes a few good points as well. He also tried to defend Corazon when nobody else would. Makes it much harder for me to call him scum now. Theesr moves to my #1 scum read as even during the lynch of Spag he really doesn't seem to care. I believe he even says at one point he doesn't care. Again I owe an apology to Corazon as I believe he might be right in thinking Theesr is Scum or possible SK. Shz fits into a middle ground for me. I am neutral about him for the time being. I'll need to look through the filter again. with them gone the people I really have trouble marking come out. Orange, Kick, Cakepie, and Sylencia. I'll enjoy having Sylencia around more often now and it should bring some more insight on him but I find it incredibly hard to read the other three and can't tell if they represent town or scum at all. TL:DR sorry Cora, I believe you are town along with Mocsta, Aqua, Chrom, and maybe shz/fc Aqua I think you should look this over and see if it makes sense to you. Moc/Chrom/shz/cora as well. I believe if we use D1 as any indicator we can assume this to be correct. I admit I was wrong about Corazon after reading through everything again and thinking about it for awhile. Hopefully we can move on and get some of these lurkers out in the open He conveniently moves off of Corazon after I stop pushing it and the momentum on that wagon has run out. He doesn't provide any reasons for switching off, he just says that he "read through everything again". How do you go from "100% scum" to a town read by just "thinking about it for a while"? This is just an excuse to drop his scum read on Cora. The rest of his reads are super safe. Town reads on the accepted townies, no read on shz, and a scum read on threesr because he knows that FatChunk and Corazon will still go for that. He's not invested in finding scum, he's sheeped all the cases, he's playing the safest game possible, and he slipped pretty hard. Thoughts? | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
Aqua also raises a good point when he says: He doesn't provide any reasons for switching off, he just says that he "read through everything again". How do you go from "100% scum" to a town read by just "thinking about it for a while"? If you claim something is 100% scum, you better know they are 100% scum. You should have read all the posts and "thought about it for awhile" before you give a scum read, not after. Switching your point-of-view just because the one you were currently on is not something a townie does. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On December 22 2012 07:40 cDgCorazon wrote: Switching your point-of-view just because the one you were currently on is not something a townie does. EBWOP: ...just because the one you were currently on loses popularity is not something a townie does. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
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threesr
73 Posts
theesr: you were quite defensive without actually providing a defense. Personally, I applied a pressure vote for you early in the game, and I did not call you definitive scum. There maybe no conclusive evidence, but there is a reason for suspicion. I will drop my weak case on threesr for now because I promised to be rational, yet I don't think his possible motives should be overlooked. This is gibberish, and you are 100% mafia fmpov. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On December 22 2012 07:45 threesr wrote: This is gibberish, and you are 100% mafia fmpov. Threesr, we all know you think FC is Mafia. Please give us some of your other reads and go on the offensive for once instead of only playing defensive and OMGUS(OMG You Suck)-ing. | ||
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