EPTForeigners and their invisible handicap. - Page 3
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On July 04 2013 08:06 Prog455 wrote: Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans. A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples: Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice) I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when. The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long. A few foreigners beating some lower-tier Koreans occasionally doesn't mean that the gap is closing. In 2011, players like Huk, Naniwa and Idra were able to beat even the top Koreans in the world. They weren't the favourites, but they were at least competitive. Now, is there even a single foreigner in the world who could compete with the very top Koreans? | ||
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i zig zag around you
70 Posts
On July 04 2013 09:04 GolemMadness wrote: A few foreigners beating some lower-tier Koreans occasionally doesn't mean that the gap is closing. In 2011, players like Huk, Naniwa and Idra were able to beat even the top Koreans in the world. They weren't the favourites, but they were at least competitive. Now, is there even a single foreigner in the world who could compete with the very top Koreans? what does it matter if there is? | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
Not that I don't love to see foreigners tear through koreans in some tournament... I would hate to see bad foreigners get free WCS finals spots and get demolished. If a foreigner rises, it's awesome, but if not well too bad. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On July 04 2013 09:06 i zig zag around you wrote: what does it matter if there is? That's the argument here...? | ||
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GorbadTheGreat
22 Posts
On July 04 2013 08:50 theking1 wrote: The technology includes such things as infrastructure, strategy, culture and mindset.in lol and dota asians rip foreigners to shreads to.And lol did not have a succesfull precursor in korea In many computer games you research military doctrines with scientists, like in Civilization when you get Chivalry, Nationalism, etc. The same is true in e-sports generally. "Civil Service" doesn't count as technology, right? Wrong. God help the foreigners when it gets researched and out pop the Korean Macemen. | ||
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i zig zag around you
70 Posts
i'm trying to understand why it's an issue. | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
On July 04 2013 08:57 tsango wrote: Foreigners are generally not as good as koreans at starcraft because there isnt the same supportive atmosphere in most western countries that exists in Korea to nuture the talent through the team houses. Starcraft is still seen more as a competitive hobby in western nations whilst in korea there would be a lot more people who view it as a legitimate profession and something worthwhile pursuing. Naturally as the esports scene grows in America, Europe, etc more kids will get into and keep playing RTS games like starcraft and eventually we could end up with a more supportive atmosphere for pro-gamers, but until that happens - the available talent pool of players in korea will always vastly out-number that of foreigners and aside from the occasional out-liers will generally always produce superior players at the top end. Nah, it's thematic among Korean pro-gamers that their parents are NOT happy with their decision to go into gaming. Foreigner parents may be able to do more about it, however, since Korean kids might play more in PC bangs while everyone else plays more at home. I think it's more of legacy issue. Korean pro-gamers go on to coach other players and try to find and develop talents in newcomers. It doesn't seem like that happens as often with foreigners. The most prominent StarCraft gamers who have stopped playing have tended to become personalities and casters rather than coaches. It's a shame that someone like Stephano will simply quit and leave the community altogether for his own career. It's fine for him as an individual, but he could probably be a great asset as a coach, helping younger players approach the game like he did. Same goes for Idra, who is independent but seemingly uninterested in helping to develop young foreigners. | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
On July 04 2013 07:32 GolemMadness wrote: The longer the competitive scene goes on, the farther behind foreigners will get, just like in Brood War. ^ Yep. SC2 is just round 2 of what we saw with BW. | ||
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i zig zag around you
70 Posts
On July 04 2013 09:19 DyEnasTy wrote: ^ Yep. SC2 is just round 2 of what we saw with BW. one can only hope :D | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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intense555
United States474 Posts
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
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ETisME
12502 Posts
koreans train harder and just tend to have much better fundermentals such as mouse accuracy. | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia987 Posts
No-one knows how hard foreign players play. No-one really knows if there is a different mentality or anything like this. It's all conjecture and you can argue forever in circles about it. There is one thing that is purely objective that we can look at to make OBVIOUS this "invisible" handicap. MONEY There is more money for SC2 in Korea. This is undisputable fact. The key reason is: - Over 100 sc2 pros living in teamhouses with all their costs covered --> This is a HUGE cost That's it. They have their living costs covered. Even though there are more small Several thousand dollar tournaments here and there for foreigners which Koreans don't get, you can't possibly compare that to the massive cost of housing and feeding 100+ people. An issue with eSports has always been that there is a lot of bullshit, scamming and lying to try and inflate people's worth and gain sponsorship or artificially grow the scene. This means that a lot of people new to the scene hear about foreign progamers and that they are "paid a salary", and that Koreans all want to join EG because "foreign teams have more money". People then assume this means foreign progamers receive more support then Korean progamers. I think this is probably accurate, but only for the top ~30 foreigners. A lot of the time these progamers also don't have a teamhouse so despite getting paid MORE, when you factor in living costs the difference is not always so huge. Some more points: Many teams refer to their players "salary" and yet deduct travel costs from this so it is artificially inflated Salaries are often between the $1200-2000/year mark. That's right as little as $100/month. Many pro players receive no salary and only travel support IF their team has faith they will do well. So when you hear the words "progamer" don't just assume they are one of the select few foreign players who earn enough to pay rent and feed themselves. Many are hoping they can make a breakout performance, because despite having worked really hard for a long time and getting good at the game, being good will get you zero support in the foreign scene. There will always be a large window of time where the player needs to work the balancing act of devoting themselves to improving whilst working part-time to pay rent, or whilst being in conflict with their family who see no money coming in from the players huge amount of time put in, and hence heavily criticise playing the game. On the other hand you have a very healthy, sporting community in Korea where young players, whilst still needing to devote a lot of time and effort with no support to get "good", are often picked up based on dedication and improvement, not just suddenly doing well at an MLG. These players instantly get a roof over their head and are allowed to focus just on the game in a house full of like-minded players, all working to the same goal. In this environment they excel. Foreign players who have shown the same improvement and dedication are often offered $100/month salary (or none) and one flight across the country to an event a year. Their team environment introduces them to practice partners, but everything is still done online and it doesn't come close to sitting side-by-side and talking about and practicing the game all day. This isn't saying the foreign scene is horrible and bad. It's just not really professional yet, until you reach that tip-top level of 30 or 50 players that are can afford their rent based on playing the game. Even there at the top, you don't get that amazing environment to live in, and so it's very hard for the foreign scene to ever have as many good players as Korea. I hope this clears up some of the misinformation going around about the differences between the scenes, and gives a decent answer to the question in the thread. I'd say I'm qualified to answer it as a result of playing as a professional gamer, and part-time coach, for the last 2 years, supporting myself entirely through the game. In that time I've lived with the Prime team in Korea for 1 month and traveled a lot talking to a lot of other "progamers" so I know what many peoples situations are and have been shocked myself when learning how little even quite famous streamers and players are sometimes paid. It's growing, very fast, but don't get fooled by the word "progamer" guys, it just means you're pretty good at this game, not raking in the cash. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
My 2c. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
On July 04 2013 10:29 ETisME wrote: from what I see, the more hardworking foreigners do beat koreans or do good consistently, maybe with the exception of stephano. koreans train harder and just tend to have much better fundermentals such as mouse accuracy. By "consistently" it's once every tournament and still having zero shot at winning. If there were that many tournaments and a lil bit more volatility in BW, the same feat could easily be achieved Conclusion: the inferiority complex is valid | ||
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
On July 04 2013 08:06 Prog455 wrote: Allow me to call bullshit on this one. MLG Anaheim and Raleigh 2011 were an all time low for foreign progamers. From Raleigh 2011 foreigners have consistently improved compared to Koreans. A lot of Europeans are consistently winning against Koreans. If you look at the recent Dreamhack events it is not uncommen to see well known Koreans not even making it out of the group play.Let me give you a couple of examples: Dreamhack Open: Stockholm - Xlord and TLO finishing 1st and 2nd, JYP finishing 3rd - TLO, Sase and Nerchio finishing 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Forgg finishing 4th - Naniwa finishing 2nd, Yugioh and MC finishing 3rd and 4th - Naniwa knocks out Jaedong 2-1 - Naniwa loses 2-3 to Leenock who was at the time considered atleast top 5 in the world Dreamhack Summer - not as convincing as in Stockholm - Sjow beats Life (the prodigy) 2-1 - Lucifon wins his group over Stardust, who would eventually win the tournament MLG Spring 2013 - Naniwa knocks out: Thestc (2-0), Jaedong (2-0) and Dear (2-0) - 3 Kespa players enter this tournament, finishing 5th, and 9th (twice) I don't think that Koreans are as dominant as people make them sound all the time. Let me quote Hot_Bid (from Elephant in the room threat): Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when. The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. I for one is still waiting to see Jaedong mob the floor with foreigners, because in spite of training under Coach Park he is still being knocked out by a Swede that has not been anywhere near a teamhouse for god knows how long. You're delusional. There are like twenty premier tournaments a year and you choose to pick a couple bo3 that support your argument. Dreamhack Stockholm: Koreans-Foreigners 159-50 Dreamhack Summer: 182-37 MLG Spring Championship: 117-33 Premier tournaments since 2012: MLG Spring Championship - Polt Homestory Cup - Taeja Dreamhack Open Summer - StarDust WCS Season 1 Final - INnoVation WCS Europe - MVP WCS Season 1 America - Hero Dreamhack Open Stockholm - Leenock MLG Winter Championship - Life IEM Season 7 Championship -YoDa IEM Season 7 Katowice - First Homestory Cup 6- Snute WCG 2012 - PartinG IGN ProLeague Season 5 - Leenock Iron Squid II - Life 2012 Dreamhack Open - Winter - HerO IEM Season 7 Singapore - Sting 2012 Battle.net World Championship - PartinG 2012 MLG Fall Championship - Life Electronic Sports World Cup 2012 - MaNa 2012 Dreamhack Budapest - Nerchio (against Rain, StC, Sage only) Dreamhack Open Valencia - Taeja NASL Season 4 - HerO 2012 MLG Summer Championship - Life IEM Season 7 Cologne - MVP ASUS ROG Summer 2012 - Taeja TSL 4 - Creator 2012 MLG Summer Arena - Taeja Homestory Cup V - Nerchio 2012 Dreamhack Open Summer - MaNa 2012 MLG Spring Championship - DRG 2012 Spring Arena 2 - viOLet 2012 Dreamhack Stockholm - Thorzain NASL Season 3 - Stephano IGN ProLeague Season 4 - aLive 2012 MLG Winter Championship - MKP IEM Season 6 World - MC Iron Squid 1 - MMA 2012 MLG Spring Arena - MarineKing ASUS ROG Winter 2012 - Polt IEM Season 6 Sao Paulo - viOLet IEM Season 6 Kiev - MMA Homestory Cup 4 - MC Won by foreigners: ECG World Cup (?), Homestory Cup 5 and 6, Dreamhack Bucharest, Dreamhack Open Summer, Dreamhack Stockholm, NASL Season 3 Koreans in ECG: ForGG and Squirtle HSC 5: MC, MVP, ReaL, HSC 6: MC, Symbol, MKP, MMA Dreamhack Bucharest: Sage, Rain, TheSTC Dreamhack Open Summer: HerO, JYP, Vampire, Daisy, PuMa, Dragon, TaeJa, KeeN, Dreamhack Stockholm: Genius, Polt, Puma, HyuN NASL Season 3: HerO, Puzzle, HwangSin, Alicia, MC, GanZi, Puma, SeleCT (?), Rain, Polt, Ryung, aLive, CrazymoviNG, Zenio 42 Korean wins, 7 foreigner There hasn't been a single premier tournament win for a foreigner in HotS, or even 2013. So yes, Naniwa beat Jaedong's legendarily bad ZvP and beat Dear in a PvP. Sjow took a bo3 off Life after Life has played like 25-30 sets against foreigners without losing. MC has unfortunately been performing poorly. Definitely signs of foreigners not being dominated, right? | ||
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-Switch-
Canada506 Posts
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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