|
On January 18 2013 23:31 TypeLex wrote:
On the Type Gaming side, we did get our payments but indeed after a while.
Still, overall Own3D staff was overall quite helpful especially regarding technical issues.
From what I've gathered, the payments are not really in their hands, I was working in Dubai on similar deals and here's how it panned out every-time:
Viewers see Adverts(Ads) on Streamer -> Agency (Own3D for example) collects all the statistics + Ads provider collects all the statistics -> Agency sends data to Ads Provider -> Ads Provider checks the data against its own Database -> *if* there are no issue, Ads Provider pays the Agency (It takes a long time) -> Agency pays Streamer
It's not as straight forward as it looks and I personally think we should try to find a way to support initiatives like Own3D and TwitchTV, they really are pushing the industry in a new direction which is micro-advertizing, without them we'd have seen a lot of players go out of eSports already.
None-the-less, there should be more transparency, but we all know how lawyers are in terms of Corporate Image so do we even want these guys to take the risk ?
Well, If the decision is not on Own3d, they should at least be honest with the people who didn't get paid for half a year. That's the least someone could expect. Not getting paid for your work is horrible and demands the truth, not some fishy delaying tactcis.
Also: If someone doesn't get paid for half a year and then decides to leave the contract because it's hurting his financial existence gets threatened with lawayers then there is something seriously wrong. The only one who should be afraid of lawayers in this case is Own3d. It's sad that the people who are affected lack the money to hire a good lawyer and sue this company.
|
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
|
|
|
On January 19 2013 00:42 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote:
Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work". you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works?
People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money.
The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games?
Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
|
On January 19 2013 00:51 NoobCrunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:42 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote:
Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work". you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works? People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money. The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games? Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
Well, you don't understand how this works. Own3d generates revenue with ads. To get people view these ads they have to offer something interesting, which in this case is live streaming games by professional gamers. So why do you think they do not generate revenue?
|
On January 19 2013 00:51 NoobCrunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:42 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote:
Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work". you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works? People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money. The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games? Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
Why would you pay NFL players, NHL players, movie celebrities, etc etc etc... Should we not pay for our entertainment anymore?
|
Destiny is a different person than most people would like to see. He has his audience and it supports him. /congrats to that.
Destiny is a flavor that not all enjoy. He has his flaws, and his strong qualities and characteristics. I wish people would stop flaming him.
He hasn't killed anyone
He's not a sex offender
He's not a rapist.
Hating on Destiny seems pretty weak when you stand up out of your chair and step into the real world with real problems.
|
On January 19 2013 00:51 NoobCrunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:42 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote:
Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work". you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works? People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money. The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games? Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
Think of them as entertainers. TV stars, athletes, people who perform in plays, musicians, and many other forms of entertainment are equal to what these people do. TV stars are the prime example, as no one shows up to watch them live, and are paid purely through ad revenue that the network makes.
They aren't being payed to play a game. They are being paid because they entertain enough people to make to make it profitable(or beneficial at the very least) for ad agency's to pay them to put their ads on their channels.
|
We don't like Destiny? I like Destiny!
I feel like we're getting to the point where no one will be willing to work with anyone in this industry... If people don't become more tact/professional, this could lead to the downfall of *gasp* eSports!
Seriously.
|
On January 19 2013 00:58 purecarnagge wrote:
Destiny is a different person than most people would like to see. He has his audience and it supports him. /congrats to that.
Destiny is a flavor that not all enjoy. He has his flaws, and his strong qualities and characteristics. I wish people would stop flaming him.
He hasn't killed anyone
He's not a sex offender
He's not a rapist.
Hating on Destiny seems pretty weak when you stand up out of your chair and step into the real world with real problems.
It's pretty much irrelevant to the actual conversation when it comes to payment. I find it funny every other person posts something pertaining to his character when it serves no purpose here. Good show. 
|
On January 19 2013 00:51 NoobCrunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:42 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote:
Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work". you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works? People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money. The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games? Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
Why would somebody pay other people for chasing a ball.
(hint, ads).
|
On January 18 2013 23:28 costinii wrote:These are very serious allegations. Happy to see this kind of issues being on the spotlight. Teamliquid is very important because it gives voice to the community in these situations. Confirming this is true, I will not ever again visit Own3d nor will I watch, stream or mention this brand to anyone who is within my circle of friends. Well, the part of not fulfilling with contracts and all the lying will be mentioned as well. This seems just too bad to be true. This character, Oleg Kogut, seems to be a criminal. It is this kind of people that don't matter to our society. If he was to be killed or dead, I guess not many people would miss him and even some would be probably happy with it. I am sorry if I seem to hard on this character, but for me when you give your word, it is whole different level.. you break it, you are as good as dead (unless you have a strong motive to fail with your obligations, I do know that sometimes things don't go the way we planned.. but this trail of lies makes me really mad). Best of luck for the people who had this unlucky experience! Keep it strong! Cheers! 
It's this kind of rhetoric that is absolutely poisonous. How you can say something like that without regard is disturbing.
While no doubt he appears as scum from Destiny's post, we have not even heard his side of the story. And even in the case that the account of Destiny is perfectly representative, death is hardly a justifiable punishment for what essentially is lying and stealing.
|
You should have just finished out your last couple weeks on own3d and then brought your contract to a lawyer.
|
I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
|
On January 19 2013 00:42 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote:
Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work". you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works?
If we put the volatility of the banking and stockmarket sector vs the internet streaming sector then yes streaming is lightyears away. If you are as naive to put your life's income that your wife and kid count on into the hands of some internet company that isn't operating from the same country you live in and within a medium that is still new and unstable, well, then you're simply gambling.
|
You'd think all these people together could band together and get a single lawyer and threaten legal action. One person may not have the financial clout to do so, but the sheer volume of complaints suggests if everyone got together it wouldn't be prohibitively expensive.
|
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
|
Has any of the bigger League of legends or Dota players commented on this? I know joindota streams on Own3d, and so does Navi (dendi often pulls around 10k viewers just on a regular streaming session) and also a lot of the most popular streamers in LoL stream on own3d as far as I know (Don't really know the viewerships there that much but think someone like Ocelote, and maybe also CLG or TSM or both, are both pretty high up there).
|
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
This is true. I've written many contracts and signed many contracts for my business over many many years. Destiny can whine about the CEO contacting a lawyer, but that's what you're supposed to do (in fact, that's what he should do as well). He's simply naive on that point.
He does have a real grievance with the company, no doubt. Failure to pay (on time or at all) is one of the reasons you have a contract in the first place. The problem here, and I've seen it written elsewhere, is many of the people signing these contracts have no real idea what they are signing.
You must *always* read the contract, especially if you didn't write it. Bring it to your lawyer and have them look it over. Contracts are negotiable, you are allowed to add/subtract/veto anything in it. All that matters is that at the end of the day the terms work for both parties. If they don't, you simply don't sign it.
Contracts I write (or modify) are always slanted in my favor as much as possible. Failure to pay on time imposes late fees that compound over time. Default in payment means the other party pays the legal fees for me to sue them. I own all copyright. I can cancel the contract at any time for any reason with full payment regardless, etc, etc.
And before you ask why any company would sign something like that, it's because many of them read the contracts about as much as some of these people in the esports scene do. Also, if they really want you, they will bend some rules to get you. Basically, Destiny needs to both learn a little more about how contract negotiations work, and not sell himself so short.
|
On January 19 2013 01:37 Urasim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag. I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS. FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties.
This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
