Okay, so I know we don't like Destiny here and that we do our background checks before singling anyone out, but I think this warrants a thread, if only to warn other pros that this is going on.
To sum it up, he signed a contract with own3d about streaming for a set period. He was promised money to host an event which was never made available, his subscription fees have allegedly been pocketed by own3d, and his paychecks from ad revenue have been unavailable for months.
I'm hoping that we'll see a response from own3d on this, as well as the opinions / statements of some more progamers in the near future. This could be a serious issue for a lot of people.
EDIT: Also I am an idiot, could a mod please change the title to "Own3d not paying its streamers?" >.>
It would be nice if this was the only company in new media that behaved like this, but sadly that is far from the truth.
In dealing with companies like this for the last 4 years I can tell you that it currently is a bit like the wild west. Most of the companies out there are full of amateurs who are just looking to make money and the problem is even worse because a lot of the people signing the contracts have no clue whats actually in them.
I'd say the majority of people (at least 85% in my experience) do not fully grasp or understand the contracts they are signing. On top of that, even a higher percentage (I'd say around 99%) do not have the means to pursue legal action against a company that is breaching their contract.
I have worked very closely with streaming companies, youtube networks, new media companies, event organizers/companies, websites, fansites, and everything in-between. Something that is extremely frustrating in both Esports and new media is the lack of professionalism in the scene.
It literally is like walking through a mine field of inept, greedy, and shittily ran companies when it comes to being an online entertainer for a living or being a pro-gamer.
I'm sorry to hear about how Own3d treated you, and am sure we'll hear a rebuttal back and forth as these things develop, but I cant say that I'm surprised. I was fortunate enough to dodge many bullets in companies looking to take advantage of me and decided to start my own, seeing as how most other companies out there are jack shit.
Not sure what the point of this is, but all I will say is currently new media/esports is a joke, and I really hope more people like Totalbiscuit step up and kick the trash to the curb.
TL;DR - There are very few honest people in new media/esports, most of them are amateurs. Do FULL research before working with ANYBODY, or you will regret it in a year or less.
i totaly agree with you ! for last 2012 i streamed a lot for owned near 9 months i get payed only once for first 3 months and for 6 other months i still didnt get the money. Its not totatly the same situation, cause my situation is a little bit more complicated cause of my previous team mTw becuase they had contract with Oleg (owned), and last time i talked to him and ask to send money directly to me not to team he said he cant because of contract with team. As far as i know team get some money from this 6 months(didnt pay me) but still waiting money from owned(team said if they will recived money they will transfer it to me). Anyway it still suxxx hard to wait so long for your money you already earned and spend a lot of time etc etc. And i still dont think i will get this money for that 6 months of work(streaming). T__T
I brought up similar issues, such as slow payment, incorrect fill rates, deceiving the public etc. a long time ago on my blog. They have been around for a long time, twitch has since fixed it to the best of their ability. But things could be a lot better overall in the industry.
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Its a company based out of Austria and lawyers are not cheap.
If you are a big time independent player with a contract like his. or you have a team......its a very good idea to have a lawyer just for shit like this. I know its eSports and them eSports dollars aren't always the most reliable, but to not get paid for nearly 6 months would definitely warrant a lawsuit even with the cheapest lawyers.
Lawyers are incredibly expensive in general...and frankly you can't hire any old lawyer...they have to have some expertise in contract disputes or they'll be utterly worthless.
In his contract he takes a 60% penalty on money earned/owed, which is probably favorable to shelling out to a lawyer.
All that aside people saying just sue over it or any contract dispute...are being naive at best in regards to legal costs.
To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
Number of anyone involved in esports who can afford those kinds of legal fees is next to none. Less a handful of entertainers, teams, and organizations who can and probably do spend money on that sort of thing. Quite a few 'contracts' at best are notarized and are not really drafted up by a lawyer.
Just some perspective as to why most players / people in esports appeal to the public rather then a lawyer.
On January 18 2013 16:05 FXO.Slavik wrote: NaVi got contract with Own3d and it was horrible, in the beginning it seemed fine, but we didnt get paid for a long time;; after leaving navi i asked manager if there was any payment, and he said no only promising
so yeah +1 to all the guys who msged
UPDATE: "to make things clear, as i see that iam added to the op, in the end, i got paid by own3d full amount, though after a long time."
On January 18 2013 16:14 vVvRuFF wrote: As a partner of Own3d.tv I do have to say that after reading Destiny's post I am fully aware of how he feels as I am going through the same problem with being told I'd get paid then hearing absolutely nothing randomly. My payments are backed up 6 months now and lets just say I am missing X amount in K's. I originally was living on the east coast until I had some family related issues and decided to move to the west coast. With no job, I made streaming my primary platform as income until I could find work. My credit cards are backed up a lot right now and still awaiting payment from own3d.tv. I have been rather stressed out (I'm sure people who have bills understand). Thank god I have good credit and am able to hold a lot or I would have gone bankrupt by now.
I am forced to make a very hard call and have decided to move back to the east coast to get my old job back because I haven't been able to find work and with no financel support from my streaming I am out of time. I literally had to make this very hard decision yesterday and now will be leaving on Monday for a good 2000+ mile drive......... So I will be gone from streaming for who knows how long until I get settled again. (Sorry viewers, but I'll be back soon for those who watch)
I just can't seem to understand the issue with own3d.tv.... It is a 50/50 shares so 50% of what you make revenue wise goes to them so they shouldn't have any money issues? It did cause me a huge mess in RL....
I just wish that if Own3d.tv was having issues they would just come straight out and say it! Then I could of prepared for the worse a long time ago.
I'm having the same issues, it took 35 days to recieve my second paycheck from them, and I still to this day haven't gotten the next, and I'm still owed a good chunk of change.
I do this for a living and it sucks that they aren't paying on time, my life is miserable atm, because I'm owed all this money and I don't even know if I'm going to get that money because I made the switch to twitch " breaching my contract "
Type Gaming weighs in on the corporate side of things: + Show Spoiler +
On January 18 2013 23:31 TypeLex wrote: On the Type Gaming side, we did get our payments but indeed after a while. Still, overall Own3D staff was overall quite helpful especially regarding technical issues.
From what I've gathered, the payments are not really in their hands, I was working in Dubai on similar deals and here's how it panned out every-time: Viewers see Adverts(Ads) on Streamer -> Agency (Own3D for example) collects all the statistics + Ads provider collects all the statistics -> Agency sends data to Ads Provider -> Ads Provider checks the data against its own Database -> *if* there are no issue, Ads Provider pays the Agency (It takes a long time) -> Agency pays Streamer
It's not as straight forward as it looks and I personally think we should try to find a way to support initiatives like Own3D and TwitchTV, they really are pushing the industry in a new direction which is micro-advertizing, without them we'd have seen a lot of players go out of eSports already. None-the-less, there should be more transparency, but we all know how lawyers are in terms of Corporate Image so do we even want these guys to take the risk ?
I tried to get Reis/Own3d to pay sage about 1000-1500$ but they would never budge. He kept saying Sage had to sign another contract in order to get any money.. =/
Plansix weighs in with some professional legal advice: + Show Spoiler +
On January 19 2013 06:59 LimeNade wrote: Because you'll end up in more debt when trying to sue people who are in different states/countries/continents with how long it can be drawn out at times for the amount of money they aren't be paid. Going to court can cost an insane amount especially if you don't end up winning the case.
Doesn't the losing party pay the legal fees?
Ok, I am going to break this down for people, because I file legal actions professionally:
A: Yes, the winner of a legal action can request the loser pay legal fees. However, Court orders are not magic and do not give you access to their bank account. Even if you get it enforced, if all the money is over seas or not in a bank that the judge has the ability to order to do stuff, your still screwed.
B: Owned is not an US business. Having filed legal actions against companies who are overseas, it is a pain in the ass and takes forever. Like super forever, as in, two years or more.
C: No attorney is going to work one of these cases without being paid up front is some way. The only time counsels work cases for no cost is when they are sure the other party will pay out, ie: Huge bank like Bank of America, Health Care company, Ford Motors. Owned is not one of those companies and may file for bankruptcy before the legal action completes.
To quote one of our local justices in the Boston area: “There are a lot problems in the world and many of them the Court cannot solve.”
ChanManV's show Climing the Ladder regarding unprofessionalism in esports: (touches heavily on the own3D issue)
If you feel something needs adding to the OP, please tell me in a PM and I will.
On January 18 2013 10:35 LeafMeAlone wrote: From his site, wouldn't want him getting site views now would we =O
I don't think many pro's use Own3d so kinda irrelevant, not to mention the ones that do are sponsored and don't have a private contract going on
-mod edit-
Eh, I guess that's down to personal preference, I don't hate him enough to go out of my way to prevent him from getting money. That said I guess it's alright to have the text here
Hi. My name is Destiny, and I am one of the most prolific streamers in the world at the moment. I stream League of Legends, primarily, and I used to stream Starcraft 2.
In December of 2011, I was approached by own3d.tv to switch over from twitch.tv. I wrote a relatively detailed article explaining that my decision was primarily motivated by financial reasons. Basically, own3d.tv promised me more money for advertising plus a cash incentive for signing up with them. According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” I was also promised “60% of all Premium Subscription” revenue, referring to the people that subscribed to me via the $5/month system on own3d.
Let’s look at a few different things that I was promised as part of my contract:
Signing Bonus Upon signing up with own3d.tv, they agreed to pay me a cash incentive bonus for signing up with their service. According to the contract, “50% upfront payments for the first month” was to be paid out. I also had a smaller amount ($5,000) to be used for an event of my choice, such as hosting a tournament or showmatch series, that own3d.tv would put up for me. In requesting whether or not the cash incentive would be paid out, I contacted Oleg (CEO of own3d.tv) multiple times [1] [2]. After the first three times, he said that it would be wired to me next week, back in April. I inquired again about it and received no response, then was assured sometime in May that I’d be receiving it within the week. Finally, on May 25th, Oleg assured me that the signing bonus was wired to me. Of course, later I’d find out it was only 1/3rd of what I was owed, and that I’d be receiving it in 1/3rd “chunks” over the next few months. So after 7 months of streaming with own3d, I was finally paid my cash incentive for signing up with them. Not the greatest, but at least I received all of it.
Event Bonus I was given a certain dollar amount “to be managed by own3D.tv to run events for the Publisher.” As time went on with own3d.tv, my paychecks gradually came in later and later. They were incredibly unreliable with paying me, and I was incredibly uncomfortable trying to manage an event with them being responsible for paying anything out. I wasn’t willing to risk my name and reputation with them in regards to paying out prizes or payments. As a compromise, I inquired about using my event budget to schedule a trip to Poland to stay at the Ministry of Win with my family. Although this wasn’t in the contract, Oleg assured me it would be okay via Skype on June 12th. At this time, I told Ministry of Win I would be coming to visit them and entered contract negotiations with them for my stay. I messaged Oleg later asking how I would go about booking the plane tickets, but (as usual) received no response. Eventually I received an e-mail from someone working with own3d.tv that it would be impossible to use it unless I signed another contract with them to “unlock” the money. Since they were incredibly shaky with payments (among other things) I imagine they were worried that I would be switching streaming platforms upon the expiration of my contract. That’s just conjecture, of course. Finally, Oleg told me on Skype that it would be impossible to use said funds for traveling.
As of January 17th, I haven’t been able to use this event money for anything, and I assume that I’ll never have the opportunity to.
Paychecks By the time August rolled around, I had to pester Oleg fairly often on Skype about when paychecks were going out. When we got to September, paychecks were being paid months late. Oleg became increasingly less responsive on Skype. At this point I was stuck in Poland after having exhausted a large majority of my savings. I could barely afford food and necessities for my child and his mother while staying there.
The last paycheck I received from own3d was marked for July. I don’t believe I will ever be paid for the last 5 months I streamed with them. I’m trying to keep this as formal and non-sensationalist as possible, but it’s hard to imagine the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I get from even typing that out.
Subscriptions On own3d.tv you had the option to subscribe to my stream for a fee of $5.00/month. I was promised to be compensated for 60% of the revenue generated from subscribers. I love and appreciate all of you guys that subscribed to me more than you will ever imagine, but I was never (and probably will never be) paid for anyone who subscribed to my stream. own3d.tv literally pocketed that money and kept it for themselves. I pestered numerous times on Skype for it, but was never given a flat answer.
Other problems Among all of the other silly problems that came along with such a newly emerging technology such as streaming, one of the most pervasive and disruptive problems I had was with transcodes. The transcodes on my stream (the ability to watch in a lower resolution at a lower framerate) were consistently laggy or otherwise unwatchable. Based on my estimates from when I’ve streamed in the past, about 40% of a person’s audience of a 1080p or 60fps stream is watching transcodes. My transcodes were consistently broken and I feel as though it impacted my viewership, especially during my later months with own3d.
———————
To summarize, during the first few months, aside from not being paid for subscriptions or my cash incentive, things were relatively okay. As the year continued on, however, things became unbearable for me. Everything came to a head when I was essentially forced to switch from own3d.tv to twitch.tv before my contract end date in December. I hadn’t received a paycheck in so long that I was becoming worried about my ability to provide for my family while in Poland (or when we returned home) so I switched to twitch.tv 2 weeks before my contract’s end date in order to pursue a more reliable paycheck.
This was the conversation I had with Oleg in regards to leaving earlier than planned -
Of course as I’ve already left, now all of the promises are being made in regards to fixing the transcodes and what not. And of course my payments were late due to both hurricane Sandy and CBS not paying own3d.tv on time. I’m not sure how that affects all of the previous months of being paid so horrendously late, but whatever.
Penalty for leaving the contract early The reason I left my contract early was because I was well aware of the penalties for leaving. They were expressly written in the contract I signed and agreed to, and a simple cost-benefit analysis would show that it was worth it for me to bail on the contract 2 weeks early.
My penalty for leaving the contract early is as outlined, quoted from my contract -
“In case of termination without good reason and without any breach of obligations – the terminating party is obliged to pay a termination penalty. The penalty fee amounts to 60 percent of the average monthly revenues (including sponsorship fees) that have been generated before termination for the remaining months of the Agreement. For example, if the contract is terminated after 10 months and average monthly revenues have been $1000 during this period – the terminating party is obliged to pay $600 for the remaining 8 months of the contract or $4800.”
That means that I should have owed own3d.tv half of ~60% of my average revenue for a month. This penalty was nothing considering my last paycheck from them was marked for July.
Here is my final conversation with Oleg, where he threatens that his lawyers had frozen paychecks to me (because I’m sure he was just -just- about to send them out) due to me leaving the contract early -
Of course at the end he assures me that I will be paid eventually, but that was early December, and he has since stopped responding to my inquiries.
————————–
My motivation for writing this is that I hope to dissuade others from signing up with own3d or making any kind of agreements with them in the future. I am in an incredibly tight bind, financially, as I’m finally coming to accept that I worked entirely for free for half of 2012. If you subscribe to streamers on own3d, I would hope that you check with the streamer to make sure they’re actually being paid, otherwise you’re essentially shipping off $5/month to own3d with no benefit (actually, a detriment since you see no ads) whatsoever to the streamer. If you’re an aspiring streamer or a member of a pro team and you’re looking to set up a stream for yourself or your team, I would highly encourage you to stay away from own3d.
Eh, I guess that's down to personal preference, I don't hate him enough to go out of my way to prevent him from getting money. That said I guess it's alright to have the text here
It's just that he plays LoL and this is the SC2 subforum, not the general subforum
this explains why many people switched from own3d back to twitch lately.
Is this true to dota community as well? I remember not watching tobiwan's casts because it was always through own3d, which for some reason is incredibly laggy and shitty for me(I'd assume it's my connection's fault, but the lag only occurs on own3d streams).
One thing is for certain, it's good that people out when this kind of situation occur. If you just sit on yourself and move on without calling them out, these kind of issues will just occur more and more.
Own3D has always been shitty and laggy for me. I don't think they have the same level of infrastructure as twitch and from this news it appears that they don't even have much professionalism.
Hi. My name is Destiny, and I am one of the most prolific streamers in the world at the moment. I stream League of Legends, primarily, and I used to stream Starcraft 2.
In December of 2011, I was approached by own3d.tv to switch over from twitch.tv. I wrote a relatively detailed article explaining that my decision was primarily motivated by financial reasons. Basically, own3d.tv promised me more money for advertising plus a cash incentive for signing up with them. According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” I was also promised “60% of all Premium Subscription” revenue, referring to the people that subscribed to me via the $5/month system on own3d.
Let’s look at a few different things that I was promised as part of my contract:
Signing Bonus Upon signing up with own3d.tv, they agreed to pay me a cash incentive bonus for signing up with their service. According to the contract, “50% upfront payments for the first month” was to be paid out. I also had a smaller amount ($5,000) to be used for an event of my choice, such as hosting a tournament or showmatch series, that own3d.tv would put up for me. In requesting whether or not the cash incentive would be paid out, I contacted Oleg (CEO of own3d.tv) multiple times [1] [2]. After the first three times, he said that it would be wired to me next week, back in April. I inquired again about it and received no response, then was assured sometime in May that I’d be receiving it within the week. Finally, on May 25th, Oleg assured me that the signing bonus was wired to me. Of course, later I’d find out it was only 1/3rd of what I was owed, and that I’d be receiving it in 1/3rd “chunks” over the next few months. So after 7 months of streaming with own3d, I was finally paid my cash incentive for signing up with them. Not the greatest, but at least I received all of it.
Event Bonus I was given a certain dollar amount “to be managed by own3D.tv to run events for the Publisher.” As time went on with own3d.tv, my paychecks gradually came in later and later. They were incredibly unreliable with paying me, and I was incredibly uncomfortable trying to manage an event with them being responsible for paying anything out. I wasn’t willing to risk my name and reputation with them in regards to paying out prizes or payments. As a compromise, I inquired about using my event budget to schedule a trip to Poland to stay at the Ministry of Win with my family. Although this wasn’t in the contract, Oleg assured me it would be okay via Skype on June 12th. At this time, I told Ministry of Win I would be coming to visit them and entered contract negotiations with them for my stay. I messaged Oleg later asking how I would go about booking the plane tickets, but (as usual) received no response. Eventually I received an e-mail from someone working with own3d.tv that it would be impossible to use it unless I signed another contract with them to “unlock” the money. Since they were incredibly shaky with payments (among other things) I imagine they were worried that I would be switching streaming platforms upon the expiration of my contract. That’s just conjecture, of course. Finally, Oleg told me on Skype that it would be impossible to use said funds for traveling.
As of January 17th, I haven’t been able to use this event money for anything, and I assume that I’ll never have the opportunity to.
Paychecks By the time August rolled around, I had to pester Oleg fairly often on Skype about when paychecks were going out. When we got to September, paychecks were being paid months late. Oleg became increasingly less responsive on Skype. At this point I was stuck in Poland after having exhausted a large majority of my savings. I could barely afford food and necessities for my child and his mother while staying there.
The last paycheck I received from own3d was marked for July. I don’t believe I will ever be paid for the last 5 months I streamed with them. I’m trying to keep this as formal and non-sensationalist as possible, but it’s hard to imagine the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I get from even typing that out.
Subscriptions On own3d.tv you had the option to subscribe to my stream for a fee of $5.00/month. I was promised to be compensated for 60% of the revenue generated from subscribers. I love and appreciate all of you guys that subscribed to me more than you will ever imagine, but I was never (and probably will never be) paid for anyone who subscribed to my stream. own3d.tv literally pocketed that money and kept it for themselves. I pestered numerous times on Skype for it, but was never given a flat answer.
Other problems Among all of the other silly problems that came along with such a newly emerging technology such as streaming, one of the most pervasive and disruptive problems I had was with transcodes. The transcodes on my stream (the ability to watch in a lower resolution at a lower framerate) were consistently laggy or otherwise unwatchable. Based on my estimates from when I’ve streamed in the past, about 40% of a person’s audience of a 1080p or 60fps stream is watching transcodes. My transcodes were consistently broken and I feel as though it impacted my viewership, especially during my later months with own3d.
———————
To summarize, during the first few months, aside from not being paid for subscriptions or my cash incentive, things were relatively okay. As the year continued on, however, things became unbearable for me. Everything came to a head when I was essentially forced to switch from own3d.tv to twitch.tv before my contract end date in December. I hadn’t received a paycheck in so long that I was becoming worried about my ability to provide for my family while in Poland (or when we returned home) so I switched to twitch.tv 2 weeks before my contract’s end date in order to pursue a more reliable paycheck.
This was the conversation I had with Oleg in regards to leaving earlier than planned -
Of course as I’ve already left, now all of the promises are being made in regards to fixing the transcodes and what not. And of course my payments were late due to both hurricane Sandy and CBS not paying own3d.tv on time. I’m not sure how that affects all of the previous months of being paid so horrendously late, but whatever.
Penalty for leaving the contract early The reason I left my contract early was because I was well aware of the penalties for leaving. They were expressly written in the contract I signed and agreed to, and a simple cost-benefit analysis would show that it was worth it for me to bail on the contract 2 weeks early.
My penalty for leaving the contract early is as outlined, quoted from my contract -
“In case of termination without good reason and without any breach of obligations – the terminating party is obliged to pay a termination penalty. The penalty fee amounts to 60 percent of the average monthly revenues (including sponsorship fees) that have been generated before termination for the remaining months of the Agreement. For example, if the contract is terminated after 10 months and average monthly revenues have been $1000 during this period – the terminating party is obliged to pay $600 for the remaining 8 months of the contract or $4800.”
That means that I should have owed own3d.tv half of ~60% of my average revenue for a month. This penalty was nothing considering my last paycheck from them was marked for July.
Here is my final conversation with Oleg, where he threatens that his lawyers had frozen paychecks to me (because I’m sure he was just -just- about to send them out) due to me leaving the contract early -
Of course at the end he assures me that I will be paid eventually, but that was early December, and he has since stopped responding to my inquiries.
————————–
My motivation for writing this is that I hope to dissuade others from signing up with own3d or making any kind of agreements with them in the future. I am in an incredibly tight bind, financially, as I’m finally coming to accept that I worked entirely for free for half of 2012. If you subscribe to streamers on own3d, I would hope that you check with the streamer to make sure they’re actually being paid, otherwise you’re essentially shipping off $5/month to own3d with no benefit (actually, a detriment since you see no ads) whatsoever to the streamer. If you’re an aspiring streamer or a member of a pro team and you’re looking to set up a stream for yourself or your team, I would highly encourage you to stay away from own3d.
Eh, I guess that's down to personal preference, I don't hate him enough to go out of my way to prevent him from getting money. That said I guess it's alright to have the text here
It's just that he plays LoL and this is the SC2 subforum, not the general subforum
A major streaming company not paying their streamers is relevant to SC2 streamers as well. Also seems kind of mean to actively try to prevent people from going to his site.
On January 18 2013 10:42 Zephirdd wrote: this explains why many people switched from own3d back to twitch lately.
Is this true to dota community as well? I remember not watching tobiwan's casts because it was always through own3d, which for some reason is incredibly laggy and shitty for me(I'd assume it's my connection's fault, but the lag only occurs on own3d streams).
One thing is for certain, it's good that people out when this kind of situation occur. If you just sit on yourself and move on without calling them out, these kind of issues will just occur more and more.
can't comment on other streamers, but Sing2x mentioned not being payed as well
On January 18 2013 10:42 Zephirdd wrote: this explains why many people switched from own3d back to twitch lately.
Is this true to dota community as well? I remember not watching tobiwan's casts because it was always through own3d, which for some reason is incredibly laggy and shitty for me(I'd assume it's my connection's fault, but the lag only occurs on own3d streams).
One thing is for certain, it's good that people out when this kind of situation occur. If you just sit on yourself and move on without calling them out, these kind of issues will just occur more and more.
The Defense is sponsored by own3d - so they're probably forced to go through them. Also tobi did some vlog on his youtube page about the streaming situation overall and why joinDota sticks to own3d (2-3 weeks ago, google if interested). The most upvoted comment in the dota2 subreddit about the same topic is: "SingSing mentioned on stream he wasn't getting paid too for the last few months.", so yeah it's likely to assume that they have similar problems.
Concerning lag/quality: The thing is that own3d has a good infrastructure in Europe. I personally have absolutely no problems with them, while I have problems with twitch (who have a better infrastructure outside of Europe). So it's partly your connection's fault and partly their connections infrastructure fault. And the same thing on my end with twitch. So it really sucks for me that they're so unprofessional, since the alternative isnt good enough quality wise
On January 18 2013 10:51 Pokebunny wrote: This is a longtime issue with own3d and is why It's Gosu left.
We havent gotten paid since the april revenue of last year and they promise payment within 3 months.
That's actually incredible. Sorry to hear about that. Regardless of how I feel about destiny aside it really is unacceptable that he has not been paid. It's actually kind of sad considering they're really the only other competitor to Twitch, but I guess for that exact reason, they're not able to expand as fast as twitch. Pretty unfortunate for destiny though since he switched over to Owned when he had a VERY high twitch viewer rate and just wanted the higher cpm even if only a fraction of people moved with him...
On January 18 2013 10:42 Zephirdd wrote: this explains why many people switched from own3d back to twitch lately.
Is this true to dota community as well? I remember not watching tobiwan's casts because it was always through own3d, which for some reason is incredibly laggy and shitty for me(I'd assume it's my connection's fault, but the lag only occurs on own3d streams).
One thing is for certain, it's good that people out when this kind of situation occur. If you just sit on yourself and move on without calling them out, these kind of issues will just occur more and more.
The Defense is sponsored by own3d - so they're probably forced to go through them. Also tobi did some vlog on his youtube page about the streaming situation overall and why joinDota sticks to own3d (2-3 weeks ago, google if interested). The most upvoted comment in the dota2 subreddit about the same topic is: "SingSing mentioned on stream he wasn't getting paid too for the last few months.", so yeah it's likely to assume that they have similar problems.
Concerning lag/quality: The thing is that own3d has a good infrastructure in Europe. I personally have absolutely no problems with them, while I have problems with twitch (who have a better infrastructure outside of Europe). So it's partly your connection's fault and partly their connections infrastructure fault. And the same thing on my end with twitch. So it really sucks for me that they're so unprofessional, since the alternative isnt good enough quality wise
I'm european and I have issues with own3d. Their transcoding is horrendous. Their player is underwhelming and it becomes increasingly laggy the longer the page is open and not refreshed. Gets even worse if you hoover the mouse to reveal the player interface.
Really sad to hear, I hope he and others can get it sorted.
I remember Twitch getting a lot of venture capital (I think) and they said they want to improve there EU infrastructure, so hopefully they can produce a better service than Own3d shortly and people can switch without having issues for there viewers.
Apparently AzubuTV is a thing now also, so maybe we will get a third party in the game to push the quality up more.
Seems if you were not getting paid after 2 months some action should have been taken. Not waiting 5 months on empty promises. I imagine they are on a monthly cycle to assess revenue, then 2-4 weeks to verify and pay out.
Think on own3d rise they got a lot of LoL players to use their service.
This is bullshit, and it's a farce to me that they're involving lawyers in this issue about a contractual breach when it's clearly own3d that is at blame for any breach of contract. Pay your fucking streamers, enough said. Hope Destiny and everyone else gets their money, this type of thing shouldn't happen.
The only problem I have with Own3d is that it's really bad. Whenever I mouse over the screen to bring up the controls, it slows down my browser until it goes away again. I don't even understand how this is acceptable for release.
And yeah, I feel bad for everyone who didn't get paid according to the terms. You should consider legal action, sounds like there may be enough of you to file a class action!
On January 18 2013 10:51 Pokebunny wrote: This is a longtime issue with own3d and is why It's Gosu left.
We havent gotten paid since the april revenue of last year and they promised payment within 3 months.
If it has been a problem for so long has anyone considered finding all the own3d streamers who aren't getting payed by asking everyone on own3d if they are having the same problem and demand payment as one big group from a much stronger position? The entire group of people not getting payed could better afford legal help or threaten to leave with similar public warnings all at once if they don't get money now.
Wow that's a shame. Not a fan of destiny at all, but he certainly deserves his paychecks when earned. A shame by own3d. I suppose the only thing I can do is be naively optimistic and hope that own3d really does end up paying its dues.
You assume everyone here hates destiny. We all don't hate him, just that TL administration don't like him (or maybe he is just streamer on LoL which isnt a supported game on this site). He has improved throughout his stream though and his attitude is not as bad as before. I really wish the best of luck to those who got cheated from Own3d.
However, e-sport is growing. It all starts off as a bunch of amateurs (sorry if there are professionals) making fansites, etc. to professional organizations with full time players/casters/others (EG, TL, JoinDota). We gotta learn from the mistakes and move on. When we see someone being cheated or someone cheating others out, thats when we know what to do and just not support them.
Hi. My name is Destiny, and I am one of the most prolific streamers in the world at the moment. I stream League of Legends, primarily, and I used to stream Starcraft 2.
In December of 2011, I was approached by own3d.tv to switch over from twitch.tv. I wrote a relatively detailed article explaining that my decision was primarily motivated by financial reasons. Basically, own3d.tv promised me more money for advertising plus a cash incentive for signing up with them. According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” I was also promised “60% of all Premium Subscription” revenue, referring to the people that subscribed to me via the $5/month system on own3d.
Let’s look at a few different things that I was promised as part of my contract:
Signing Bonus Upon signing up with own3d.tv, they agreed to pay me a cash incentive bonus for signing up with their service. According to the contract, “50% upfront payments for the first month” was to be paid out. I also had a smaller amount ($5,000) to be used for an event of my choice, such as hosting a tournament or showmatch series, that own3d.tv would put up for me. In requesting whether or not the cash incentive would be paid out, I contacted Oleg (CEO of own3d.tv) multiple times [1] [2]. After the first three times, he said that it would be wired to me next week, back in April. I inquired again about it and received no response, then was assured sometime in May that I’d be receiving it within the week. Finally, on May 25th, Oleg assured me that the signing bonus was wired to me. Of course, later I’d find out it was only 1/3rd of what I was owed, and that I’d be receiving it in 1/3rd “chunks” over the next few months. So after 7 months of streaming with own3d, I was finally paid my cash incentive for signing up with them. Not the greatest, but at least I received all of it.
Event Bonus I was given a certain dollar amount “to be managed by own3D.tv to run events for the Publisher.” As time went on with own3d.tv, my paychecks gradually came in later and later. They were incredibly unreliable with paying me, and I was incredibly uncomfortable trying to manage an event with them being responsible for paying anything out. I wasn’t willing to risk my name and reputation with them in regards to paying out prizes or payments. As a compromise, I inquired about using my event budget to schedule a trip to Poland to stay at the Ministry of Win with my family. Although this wasn’t in the contract, Oleg assured me it would be okay via Skype on June 12th. At this time, I told Ministry of Win I would be coming to visit them and entered contract negotiations with them for my stay. I messaged Oleg later asking how I would go about booking the plane tickets, but (as usual) received no response. Eventually I received an e-mail from someone working with own3d.tv that it would be impossible to use it unless I signed another contract with them to “unlock” the money. Since they were incredibly shaky with payments (among other things) I imagine they were worried that I would be switching streaming platforms upon the expiration of my contract. That’s just conjecture, of course. Finally, Oleg told me on Skype that it would be impossible to use said funds for traveling.
As of January 17th, I haven’t been able to use this event money for anything, and I assume that I’ll never have the opportunity to.
Paychecks By the time August rolled around, I had to pester Oleg fairly often on Skype about when paychecks were going out. When we got to September, paychecks were being paid months late. Oleg became increasingly less responsive on Skype. At this point I was stuck in Poland after having exhausted a large majority of my savings. I could barely afford food and necessities for my child and his mother while staying there.
The last paycheck I received from own3d was marked for July. I don’t believe I will ever be paid for the last 5 months I streamed with them. I’m trying to keep this as formal and non-sensationalist as possible, but it’s hard to imagine the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I get from even typing that out.
Subscriptions On own3d.tv you had the option to subscribe to my stream for a fee of $5.00/month. I was promised to be compensated for 60% of the revenue generated from subscribers. I love and appreciate all of you guys that subscribed to me more than you will ever imagine, but I was never (and probably will never be) paid for anyone who subscribed to my stream. own3d.tv literally pocketed that money and kept it for themselves. I pestered numerous times on Skype for it, but was never given a flat answer.
Other problems Among all of the other silly problems that came along with such a newly emerging technology such as streaming, one of the most pervasive and disruptive problems I had was with transcodes. The transcodes on my stream (the ability to watch in a lower resolution at a lower framerate) were consistently laggy or otherwise unwatchable. Based on my estimates from when I’ve streamed in the past, about 40% of a person’s audience of a 1080p or 60fps stream is watching transcodes. My transcodes were consistently broken and I feel as though it impacted my viewership, especially during my later months with own3d.
———————
To summarize, during the first few months, aside from not being paid for subscriptions or my cash incentive, things were relatively okay. As the year continued on, however, things became unbearable for me. Everything came to a head when I was essentially forced to switch from own3d.tv to twitch.tv before my contract end date in December. I hadn’t received a paycheck in so long that I was becoming worried about my ability to provide for my family while in Poland (or when we returned home) so I switched to twitch.tv 2 weeks before my contract’s end date in order to pursue a more reliable paycheck.
This was the conversation I had with Oleg in regards to leaving earlier than planned -
Of course as I’ve already left, now all of the promises are being made in regards to fixing the transcodes and what not. And of course my payments were late due to both hurricane Sandy and CBS not paying own3d.tv on time. I’m not sure how that affects all of the previous months of being paid so horrendously late, but whatever.
Penalty for leaving the contract early The reason I left my contract early was because I was well aware of the penalties for leaving. They were expressly written in the contract I signed and agreed to, and a simple cost-benefit analysis would show that it was worth it for me to bail on the contract 2 weeks early.
My penalty for leaving the contract early is as outlined, quoted from my contract -
“In case of termination without good reason and without any breach of obligations – the terminating party is obliged to pay a termination penalty. The penalty fee amounts to 60 percent of the average monthly revenues (including sponsorship fees) that have been generated before termination for the remaining months of the Agreement. For example, if the contract is terminated after 10 months and average monthly revenues have been $1000 during this period – the terminating party is obliged to pay $600 for the remaining 8 months of the contract or $4800.”
That means that I should have owed own3d.tv half of ~60% of my average revenue for a month. This penalty was nothing considering my last paycheck from them was marked for July.
Here is my final conversation with Oleg, where he threatens that his lawyers had frozen paychecks to me (because I’m sure he was just -just- about to send them out) due to me leaving the contract early -
Of course at the end he assures me that I will be paid eventually, but that was early December, and he has since stopped responding to my inquiries.
————————–
My motivation for writing this is that I hope to dissuade others from signing up with own3d or making any kind of agreements with them in the future. I am in an incredibly tight bind, financially, as I’m finally coming to accept that I worked entirely for free for half of 2012. If you subscribe to streamers on own3d, I would hope that you check with the streamer to make sure they’re actually being paid, otherwise you’re essentially shipping off $5/month to own3d with no benefit (actually, a detriment since you see no ads) whatsoever to the streamer. If you’re an aspiring streamer or a member of a pro team and you’re looking to set up a stream for yourself or your team, I would highly encourage you to stay away from own3d.
Eh, I guess that's down to personal preference, I don't hate him enough to go out of my way to prevent him from getting money. That said I guess it's alright to have the text here
It's just that he plays LoL and this is the SC2 subforum, not the general subforum
Why would that mean that you don't want his site getting views?
Doesnt matter if you hate or love Destiny, when people sign a contract and work, they should be paid for their work. If it was anyone other than Destiny (lets say if it was TLO or someone you people like complaining about this), Own3ed would be up in flames right now from TL.
On January 18 2013 11:10 Fionn wrote: I have a rule that I don't trust companies that use leet speak. It's a rule that most of the world should follow.
I just wanted to make sure everybody's reading this awesome and absolutely TRUTHFUL statement.
Sucks that destiny, and other professional gamers aren't getting paid by them. As somebody said before, I'm curious as to why destiny hasn't filed a law suit against them yet?
If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Hi. My name is Destiny, and I am one of the most prolific streamers in the world at the moment. I stream League of Legends, primarily, and I used to stream Starcraft 2.
In December of 2011, I was approached by own3d.tv to switch over from twitch.tv. I wrote a relatively detailed article explaining that my decision was primarily motivated by financial reasons. Basically, own3d.tv promised me more money for advertising plus a cash incentive for signing up with them. According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” I was also promised “60% of all Premium Subscription” revenue, referring to the people that subscribed to me via the $5/month system on own3d.
Let’s look at a few different things that I was promised as part of my contract:
Signing Bonus Upon signing up with own3d.tv, they agreed to pay me a cash incentive bonus for signing up with their service. According to the contract, “50% upfront payments for the first month” was to be paid out. I also had a smaller amount ($5,000) to be used for an event of my choice, such as hosting a tournament or showmatch series, that own3d.tv would put up for me. In requesting whether or not the cash incentive would be paid out, I contacted Oleg (CEO of own3d.tv) multiple times [1] [2]. After the first three times, he said that it would be wired to me next week, back in April. I inquired again about it and received no response, then was assured sometime in May that I’d be receiving it within the week. Finally, on May 25th, Oleg assured me that the signing bonus was wired to me. Of course, later I’d find out it was only 1/3rd of what I was owed, and that I’d be receiving it in 1/3rd “chunks” over the next few months. So after 7 months of streaming with own3d, I was finally paid my cash incentive for signing up with them. Not the greatest, but at least I received all of it.
Event Bonus I was given a certain dollar amount “to be managed by own3D.tv to run events for the Publisher.” As time went on with own3d.tv, my paychecks gradually came in later and later. They were incredibly unreliable with paying me, and I was incredibly uncomfortable trying to manage an event with them being responsible for paying anything out. I wasn’t willing to risk my name and reputation with them in regards to paying out prizes or payments. As a compromise, I inquired about using my event budget to schedule a trip to Poland to stay at the Ministry of Win with my family. Although this wasn’t in the contract, Oleg assured me it would be okay via Skype on June 12th. At this time, I told Ministry of Win I would be coming to visit them and entered contract negotiations with them for my stay. I messaged Oleg later asking how I would go about booking the plane tickets, but (as usual) received no response. Eventually I received an e-mail from someone working with own3d.tv that it would be impossible to use it unless I signed another contract with them to “unlock” the money. Since they were incredibly shaky with payments (among other things) I imagine they were worried that I would be switching streaming platforms upon the expiration of my contract. That’s just conjecture, of course. Finally, Oleg told me on Skype that it would be impossible to use said funds for traveling.
As of January 17th, I haven’t been able to use this event money for anything, and I assume that I’ll never have the opportunity to.
Paychecks By the time August rolled around, I had to pester Oleg fairly often on Skype about when paychecks were going out. When we got to September, paychecks were being paid months late. Oleg became increasingly less responsive on Skype. At this point I was stuck in Poland after having exhausted a large majority of my savings. I could barely afford food and necessities for my child and his mother while staying there.
The last paycheck I received from own3d was marked for July. I don’t believe I will ever be paid for the last 5 months I streamed with them. I’m trying to keep this as formal and non-sensationalist as possible, but it’s hard to imagine the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I get from even typing that out.
Subscriptions On own3d.tv you had the option to subscribe to my stream for a fee of $5.00/month. I was promised to be compensated for 60% of the revenue generated from subscribers. I love and appreciate all of you guys that subscribed to me more than you will ever imagine, but I was never (and probably will never be) paid for anyone who subscribed to my stream. own3d.tv literally pocketed that money and kept it for themselves. I pestered numerous times on Skype for it, but was never given a flat answer.
Other problems Among all of the other silly problems that came along with such a newly emerging technology such as streaming, one of the most pervasive and disruptive problems I had was with transcodes. The transcodes on my stream (the ability to watch in a lower resolution at a lower framerate) were consistently laggy or otherwise unwatchable. Based on my estimates from when I’ve streamed in the past, about 40% of a person’s audience of a 1080p or 60fps stream is watching transcodes. My transcodes were consistently broken and I feel as though it impacted my viewership, especially during my later months with own3d.
———————
To summarize, during the first few months, aside from not being paid for subscriptions or my cash incentive, things were relatively okay. As the year continued on, however, things became unbearable for me. Everything came to a head when I was essentially forced to switch from own3d.tv to twitch.tv before my contract end date in December. I hadn’t received a paycheck in so long that I was becoming worried about my ability to provide for my family while in Poland (or when we returned home) so I switched to twitch.tv 2 weeks before my contract’s end date in order to pursue a more reliable paycheck.
This was the conversation I had with Oleg in regards to leaving earlier than planned -
Of course as I’ve already left, now all of the promises are being made in regards to fixing the transcodes and what not. And of course my payments were late due to both hurricane Sandy and CBS not paying own3d.tv on time. I’m not sure how that affects all of the previous months of being paid so horrendously late, but whatever.
Penalty for leaving the contract early The reason I left my contract early was because I was well aware of the penalties for leaving. They were expressly written in the contract I signed and agreed to, and a simple cost-benefit analysis would show that it was worth it for me to bail on the contract 2 weeks early.
My penalty for leaving the contract early is as outlined, quoted from my contract -
“In case of termination without good reason and without any breach of obligations – the terminating party is obliged to pay a termination penalty. The penalty fee amounts to 60 percent of the average monthly revenues (including sponsorship fees) that have been generated before termination for the remaining months of the Agreement. For example, if the contract is terminated after 10 months and average monthly revenues have been $1000 during this period – the terminating party is obliged to pay $600 for the remaining 8 months of the contract or $4800.”
That means that I should have owed own3d.tv half of ~60% of my average revenue for a month. This penalty was nothing considering my last paycheck from them was marked for July.
Here is my final conversation with Oleg, where he threatens that his lawyers had frozen paychecks to me (because I’m sure he was just -just- about to send them out) due to me leaving the contract early -
Of course at the end he assures me that I will be paid eventually, but that was early December, and he has since stopped responding to my inquiries.
————————–
My motivation for writing this is that I hope to dissuade others from signing up with own3d or making any kind of agreements with them in the future. I am in an incredibly tight bind, financially, as I’m finally coming to accept that I worked entirely for free for half of 2012. If you subscribe to streamers on own3d, I would hope that you check with the streamer to make sure they’re actually being paid, otherwise you’re essentially shipping off $5/month to own3d with no benefit (actually, a detriment since you see no ads) whatsoever to the streamer. If you’re an aspiring streamer or a member of a pro team and you’re looking to set up a stream for yourself or your team, I would highly encourage you to stay away from own3d.
I don't think many pro's use Own3d so kinda irrelevant, not to mention the ones that do are sponsored and don't have a private contract going on
Yeah, we wouldn't want someone providing valuable information about a streaming platform, who has a kid to support and was basically streaming for free for 6 months.
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Its a company based out of Austria and lawyers are not cheap.
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Its a company based out of Austria and lawyers are not cheap.
and being in Austria, its pretty hard to pursue them legally, and they know this.
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Its a company based out of Austria and lawyers are not cheap.
If you are a big time independent player with a contract like his. or you have a team......its a very good idea to have a lawyer just for shit like this. I know its eSports and them eSports dollars aren't always the most reliable, but to not get paid for nearly 6 months would definately warrant a lawsuit even with the cheapest lawyers.
On January 18 2013 11:10 Fionn wrote: I never used Own3d.
I have a rule that I don't trust companies that use leet speak. It's a rule that most of the world should follow.
I have a feeling that this will make a very important impact on my life, within the next couple of years. Thank you for sharing this truth. Worth reading this thread just to read this line.
On January 18 2013 11:32 Kaitokid wrote: uhh.. sorry to hear. did you or anyone else have any problems with twitch?
From what I remember (It's a little hazy at this point) he switched from Twitch to Own3d because Twitch was slow with payments or was short-changing him or something along those lines. I can't remember but it was something like that.
On January 18 2013 11:32 Kaitokid wrote: uhh.. sorry to hear. did you or anyone else have any problems with twitch?
From what I remember (It's a little hazy at this point) he switched from Twitch to Own3d because Twitch was slow with payments or was short-changing him or something along those lines. I can't remember but it was something like that.
Slow payments are better than no payments.
He switched because he was promised more money, that was pretty much the gist of it. Perhaps twitch was a bit slow on the payments, I remember Idra bringing that up on a weekly ages ago, but that's about it. The switch was just to better his finances to help support his family and what not.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
This is a good question. I doubt he wants to get into a prolonged legal battle since he is low on funds.
I also want to say that, though I am not a big fan of Destiny myself, and find his antics, along with his vocabulary disconcerting, TL doesn't hate destiny. There are some players are that aren't discussed on TL due to other reasons I've come to find, but Destiny's stuff has really quieted down after ROOT let him go because of certain issues (some of which can be found in the TL lookback on 2012). Not everyone is a fan, and not everyone likes him, but it isn't like TL attempts to sabotage him or anything.
I have considered the own3d player and interface to be garbage for some time. Twitch has been so much better from the perspective of both a casual streamer and a viewer. Stuff like this cements it for me, I'm never going back. As much as I don/'t really like Destiny's personality (unless he's changed since he switched to League), he really got shafted here, and I truly hope he gets paid what he's owed. What a terrible situation to be in for him.
On January 18 2013 11:39 docvoc wrote: I also want to say that, though I am not a big fan of Destiny myself, and find his antics, along with his vocabulary disconcerting, TL doesn't hate destiny. There are some players are that aren't discussed on TL due to other reasons I've come to find, but Destiny's stuff has really quieted down after ROOT let him go because of certain issues (some of which can be found in the TL lookback on 2012). Not everyone is a fan, and not everyone likes him, but it isn't like TL attempts to sabotage him or anything.
On January 18 2013 10:35 LeafMeAlone wrote: From his site, wouldn't want him getting site views now would we =O
Hi. My name is Destiny, and I am one of the most prolific streamers in the world at the moment. I stream League of Legends, primarily, and I used to stream Starcraft 2.
In December of 2011, I was approached by own3d.tv to switch over from twitch.tv. I wrote a relatively detailed article explaining that my decision was primarily motivated by financial reasons. Basically, own3d.tv promised me more money for advertising plus a cash incentive for signing up with them. According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” I was also promised “60% of all Premium Subscription” revenue, referring to the people that subscribed to me via the $5/month system on own3d.
Let’s look at a few different things that I was promised as part of my contract:
Signing Bonus Upon signing up with own3d.tv, they agreed to pay me a cash incentive bonus for signing up with their service. According to the contract, “50% upfront payments for the first month” was to be paid out. I also had a smaller amount ($5,000) to be used for an event of my choice, such as hosting a tournament or showmatch series, that own3d.tv would put up for me. In requesting whether or not the cash incentive would be paid out, I contacted Oleg (CEO of own3d.tv) multiple times [1] [2]. After the first three times, he said that it would be wired to me next week, back in April. I inquired again about it and received no response, then was assured sometime in May that I’d be receiving it within the week. Finally, on May 25th, Oleg assured me that the signing bonus was wired to me. Of course, later I’d find out it was only 1/3rd of what I was owed, and that I’d be receiving it in 1/3rd “chunks” over the next few months. So after 7 months of streaming with own3d, I was finally paid my cash incentive for signing up with them. Not the greatest, but at least I received all of it.
Event Bonus I was given a certain dollar amount “to be managed by own3D.tv to run events for the Publisher.” As time went on with own3d.tv, my paychecks gradually came in later and later. They were incredibly unreliable with paying me, and I was incredibly uncomfortable trying to manage an event with them being responsible for paying anything out. I wasn’t willing to risk my name and reputation with them in regards to paying out prizes or payments. As a compromise, I inquired about using my event budget to schedule a trip to Poland to stay at the Ministry of Win with my family. Although this wasn’t in the contract, Oleg assured me it would be okay via Skype on June 12th. At this time, I told Ministry of Win I would be coming to visit them and entered contract negotiations with them for my stay. I messaged Oleg later asking how I would go about booking the plane tickets, but (as usual) received no response. Eventually I received an e-mail from someone working with own3d.tv that it would be impossible to use it unless I signed another contract with them to “unlock” the money. Since they were incredibly shaky with payments (among other things) I imagine they were worried that I would be switching streaming platforms upon the expiration of my contract. That’s just conjecture, of course. Finally, Oleg told me on Skype that it would be impossible to use said funds for traveling.
As of January 17th, I haven’t been able to use this event money for anything, and I assume that I’ll never have the opportunity to.
Paychecks By the time August rolled around, I had to pester Oleg fairly often on Skype about when paychecks were going out. When we got to September, paychecks were being paid months late. Oleg became increasingly less responsive on Skype. At this point I was stuck in Poland after having exhausted a large majority of my savings. I could barely afford food and necessities for my child and his mother while staying there.
The last paycheck I received from own3d was marked for July. I don’t believe I will ever be paid for the last 5 months I streamed with them. I’m trying to keep this as formal and non-sensationalist as possible, but it’s hard to imagine the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I get from even typing that out.
Subscriptions On own3d.tv you had the option to subscribe to my stream for a fee of $5.00/month. I was promised to be compensated for 60% of the revenue generated from subscribers. I love and appreciate all of you guys that subscribed to me more than you will ever imagine, but I was never (and probably will never be) paid for anyone who subscribed to my stream. own3d.tv literally pocketed that money and kept it for themselves. I pestered numerous times on Skype for it, but was never given a flat answer.
Other problems Among all of the other silly problems that came along with such a newly emerging technology such as streaming, one of the most pervasive and disruptive problems I had was with transcodes. The transcodes on my stream (the ability to watch in a lower resolution at a lower framerate) were consistently laggy or otherwise unwatchable. Based on my estimates from when I’ve streamed in the past, about 40% of a person’s audience of a 1080p or 60fps stream is watching transcodes. My transcodes were consistently broken and I feel as though it impacted my viewership, especially during my later months with own3d.
———————
To summarize, during the first few months, aside from not being paid for subscriptions or my cash incentive, things were relatively okay. As the year continued on, however, things became unbearable for me. Everything came to a head when I was essentially forced to switch from own3d.tv to twitch.tv before my contract end date in December. I hadn’t received a paycheck in so long that I was becoming worried about my ability to provide for my family while in Poland (or when we returned home) so I switched to twitch.tv 2 weeks before my contract’s end date in order to pursue a more reliable paycheck.
This was the conversation I had with Oleg in regards to leaving earlier than planned -
Of course as I’ve already left, now all of the promises are being made in regards to fixing the transcodes and what not. And of course my payments were late due to both hurricane Sandy and CBS not paying own3d.tv on time. I’m not sure how that affects all of the previous months of being paid so horrendously late, but whatever.
Penalty for leaving the contract early The reason I left my contract early was because I was well aware of the penalties for leaving. They were expressly written in the contract I signed and agreed to, and a simple cost-benefit analysis would show that it was worth it for me to bail on the contract 2 weeks early.
My penalty for leaving the contract early is as outlined, quoted from my contract -
“In case of termination without good reason and without any breach of obligations – the terminating party is obliged to pay a termination penalty. The penalty fee amounts to 60 percent of the average monthly revenues (including sponsorship fees) that have been generated before termination for the remaining months of the Agreement. For example, if the contract is terminated after 10 months and average monthly revenues have been $1000 during this period – the terminating party is obliged to pay $600 for the remaining 8 months of the contract or $4800.”
That means that I should have owed own3d.tv half of ~60% of my average revenue for a month. This penalty was nothing considering my last paycheck from them was marked for July.
Here is my final conversation with Oleg, where he threatens that his lawyers had frozen paychecks to me (because I’m sure he was just -just- about to send them out) due to me leaving the contract early -
Of course at the end he assures me that I will be paid eventually, but that was early December, and he has since stopped responding to my inquiries.
————————–
My motivation for writing this is that I hope to dissuade others from signing up with own3d or making any kind of agreements with them in the future. I am in an incredibly tight bind, financially, as I’m finally coming to accept that I worked entirely for free for half of 2012. If you subscribe to streamers on own3d, I would hope that you check with the streamer to make sure they’re actually being paid, otherwise you’re essentially shipping off $5/month to own3d with no benefit (actually, a detriment since you see no ads) whatsoever to the streamer. If you’re an aspiring streamer or a member of a pro team and you’re looking to set up a stream for yourself or your team, I would highly encourage you to stay away from own3d.
On January 18 2013 11:44 Velinath wrote: I have considered the own3d player and interface to be garbage for some time. Twitch has been so much better from the perspective of both a casual streamer and a viewer. Stuff like this cements it for me, I'm never going back. As much as I don/'t really like Destiny's personality (unless he's changed since he switched to League), he really got shafted here, and I truly hope he gets paid what he's owed. What a terrible situation to be in for him.
Agreed, and it really was telling how 'professional' Destiny came out of this ordeal looking [at least for now]. Hes got a fair argument here that is well developed and at least initially pretty damming....
This certainly helps swing things in twitch's favor, at least on my end.!
Seriously, what was Destiny thinking!? He needed to press them into paying him on time and basically make it a breach of contract on the other end. Waiting until the end and then admit breaching the contract was really dumb. If he was trying to make a living, it really should have been top priority.
On January 18 2013 11:57 EnumaAvalon wrote: I think a lot of the DotA 2 pros use own3d. I know Dendi used to, so did Tobi and Lightofheaven. Haven't seen them stream recently so I can't be sure.
A lot of Dota pros still use own3d but it's not as many as it used to be. Even Tobi has been experimenting on twitch for StarLadder stuff lately.
I would have suggested not to have broken the contract, but them taking 60% of something you aren't getting (nothing) is still nothing..so understandable...GL and at least we all know what kind of ship ownd is running, thx for the warning
Edit: At least we have TL to put on some pressure and raise awareness! Front page news, own3d not going to be happy
Husky certainly brings up a good point about professionalism and knowing the people associated with certain companies I cannot say I'm surprised about getting short changed. He hit a lot of good points.
I saw dimaga made a post on this subject over in the reddit thread describing the issue from the standpoint of someone who's team (well, now ex-team) had an agreement with own3d:
"i totaly agree with you ! for last 2012 i streamed a lot for owned near 9 months i get payed only once for first 3 months and for 6 other months i still didnt get the money. Its not totatly the same situation, cause my situation is a little bit more complicated cause of my previous team mTw becuase they had contract with Oleg (owned), and last time i talked to him and ask to send money directly to me not to team he said he cant because of contract with team. As far as i know team get some money from this 6 months(didnt pay me) but still waiting money from owned(team said if they will recived money they will transfer it to me). Anyway it still suxxx hard to wait so long for your money you already earned and spend a lot of time etc etc. And i still dont think i will get this money for that 6 months of work(streaming). T__T"
I'm glad this issue is being raised on TL since so many big, usual streamers use it. Twitch has always seemed so much more reliable and efficient, + the fact that it sponsors much bigger events than Owned makes it more trust-worthy. Owned is just a mess. The interface has been buggy for as long as I can remember (almost 3 years) from multiple bugs, the VODS on Owned regularly (but not always) have issues when playing, resulting in the impossibility to watch VODS (this recently happened during December). The stream itself is usually more laggy and buggy than Twitch, this is probably caused by faulty programming and such, which is evidently extremely disappointing for a decently large company such as Owned. The fact that they don't even pay their loyal platform-users is an utter shame and if one adds all of the above with the poor relationship Owned's staff has with its platform-users, Owned ends up being just a terrible, terrible company.
On January 18 2013 11:57 EnumaAvalon wrote: I think a lot of the DotA 2 pros use own3d. I know Dendi used to, so did Tobi and Lightofheaven. Haven't seen them stream recently so I can't be sure.
A lot of Dota pros still use own3d but it's not as many as it used to be. Even Tobi has been experimenting on twitch for StarLadder stuff lately.
I saw Dendi a long time ago stream on twitch even though it conflicted with his sponsor conflict. It was a really long time ago though and i forgot what the name of the channel was.
On January 18 2013 12:17 tribulator wrote: I saw dimaga made a post on this subject over in the reddit thread describing the issue from the standpoint of someone who's team (well, now ex-team) had an agreement with own3d:
"i totaly agree with you ! for last 2012 i streamed a lot for owned near 9 months i get payed only once for first 3 months and for 6 other months i still didnt get the money. Its not totatly the same situation, cause my situation is a little bit more complicated cause of my previous team mTw becuase they had contract with Oleg (owned), and last time i talked to him and ask to send money directly to me not to team he said he cant because of contract with team. As far as i know team get some money from this 6 months(didnt pay me) but still waiting money from owned(team said if they will recived money they will transfer it to me). Anyway it still suxxx hard to wait so long for your money you already earned and spend a lot of time etc etc. And i still dont think i will get this money for that 6 months of work(streaming). T__T"
What a nutty issue.
man poor even poor dimaga is getting mistreated as well.. I cant believe we(most of us) are finding out about this now. Something definately needs to be done. If Oleg cannot run a bussiness correctly then he needs to quit and let another platform step up.
The OP needs to update with the new comments from husky, dimaga and others. Its apparent that this problem isnt only about destiny
Oh wow. I never liked Destiny, but that was just a personal thing. If this is actually happening, it's unacceptable, not to mention the HR guy or whatever seems very unprofessional. Really shady.
On January 18 2013 11:10 Fionn wrote: I never used Own3d.
I have a rule that I don't trust companies that use leet speak. It's a rule that most of the world should follow.
I have a feeling that this will make a very important impact on my life, within the next couple of years. Thank you for sharing this truth. Worth reading this thread just to read this line.
Quote so hard... just from personal experience, i have no problem with leetspeak, but would never do business with a company or group that uses leetspeak. For the exact reason that leetspeak has no purpose. On a more related topic, I really hope Destiny gets his money because whether or not I like or agree with the guy, everyone has a right to the money they have earned.
Why haven't all these people who have had their paychecks stolen by own3d.tv taken legal action against this organization? If I was any of them I would be threatening it the moment I had one late paycheck, but that's just me. Either way months of no paychecks, and zero subscription revenue? That is downright evil and ridiculous.
Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay.
True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field.
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote: Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.
But the team signings? If they were reporting on this, how would they tweet who was signed to what team after leaving their old team? How would we stay informed?
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Its a company based out of Austria and lawyers are not cheap.
and being in Austria, its pretty hard to pursue them legally, and they know this.
errr thats pretty contrary to what i actually learned in university. If they are a registered company in Austria and Destiny signed a contract with them as a consumer (which he should have done, obviously he didn't post the details) there are numerous laws to protect him, including one that basically amounts to, in doubt the jurisdiction lies within the living sphere of the consumer not the company.
On the other hand he might still not consider it worth it, but frankly he is probably making a mistake here. From personal experience most companies who did not meet their contracts obligation pretty obviously (and that should be VERY easy to prove considering the amount of time he says he has not been paid), get advised by their own lawyers to settle out of court long before it truly reaches a judge, simply because there is nothing to be gained if the case truly is as clear cut as he said.
Meaning he would probably have to pay about 300€ to get a lawyer to write a pretty standard lawsuit and send a mean letter.
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote: Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.
Because Alex Garfield hates it when eSports journalists break news.
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote: Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.
TB, that takes effort.
As for the OP, not being able to expect payment when you're guaranteed through a contract is really unfortunate. I really hope he and those having this issue switch to Twitch.
Welcome to the world of start-ups. Slow-paying, "forgetting" bills, using any and every possible thing as an excuse for delays, that's how they survive with low or negative cash flow.
Own3d and Twitch are probably being screwed over themselves by the advertisers who are supposed to be paying them.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay.
True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field.
Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt.
Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria.
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote: Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.
You really want to take it there? Funny how players are speaking up about it now in droves, no?
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote: Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.
Because Alex Garfield hates it when eSports journalists break news.
Not meaning to derail the topic...
Nah, because this wouldn't have gotten the quick page views and would have been difficult to do. Why do the hard work when teams go through all the effort and then you just have to leak the signing information? Way easier than collecting information from 20 Owned broadcasters and writing a story about it.
I brought up similar issues, such as slow payment, incorrect fill rates, deceiving the public etc. a long time ago on my blog. They have been around for a long time, twitch has since fixed it to the best of their ability. But things could be a lot better overall in the industry.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay.
True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field.
Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt.
Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria.
He lives in the United States. Can you sue people and then not show up for the court case, because I think he might have to fly there to sue them? Here in the US you need to show up in Court at some point, even if you have an attorney. I don't know how you folks do things down there, though.
It's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny, he acts like a douche even while he's being wronged. Doesn't bode well for Own3d but at least they stayed professional in the dialogue I guess.
On January 18 2013 12:56 Rah wrote: It's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny, he acts like a douche even while he's being wronged. Doesn't bode well for Own3d but at least they stayed professional in the dialogue I guess.
I don't really care for destiny, but imagine not being paid for 3 months, at least. And when you do get paid, it's late. All that salary, gone. I think any kind of language would be perfectly justifiable, Destiny was downright civil compared to what I'm sure some people would do.
This is some crazy shit.. Everything I see from tournaments and teams is all happy and giddy(besides random player/team drama which I think is normal). I watch great games,casters,players,events but deep deep in the underground of esports theres players being unpaid and the people who promised to pay acting shady as hell.
On January 18 2013 12:56 Rah wrote: It's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny, he acts like a douche even while he's being wronged. Doesn't bode well for Own3d but at least they stayed professional in the dialogue I guess.
You've obviously never asked someone to pay you late. The furthest you'll go is polite and reasonable pleading because "RAAAGHH PAY ME NOW" won't get you anywhere.
If Destiny is feeling mean, he should sell the payment he's owed to a debt collector for 20 cents on the dollar and let them mercilessly hound own3d for the rest.
On January 18 2013 13:00 Doodsmack wrote: What country does Oleg live in?
If I was Destiny I would definitely be in touch with a lawyer if I straight up didn't get paid.
Would probably be too expensive to do so. Let's suppose that Destiny did have enough money to pay for lawyer and court fees. He would only do so only if he expects to get a net positive in the lawsuit. I'm not sure how much money is involved but it may not be cost effective to do so.
Supposing Destiny doesn't have the money, I don't know if there are lawyers that work only on commissions in Europe (take ~40% of winnings or something).
And finally, does own3d even have enough money given a loss to pay Destiny.
There's probably too much uncertainty to make a lawsuit worth while. He should however figure out the statutes of limitations on a potential lawsuit in case at some point the expected values change.
On January 18 2013 12:56 Rah wrote: It's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny, he acts like a douche even while he's being wronged. Doesn't bode well for Own3d but at least they stayed professional in the dialogue I guess.
They stayed professional? Did you even read the thing? They repeatedly promised him that he would get paid, which never happened. And eventually, they simply stopped responding to him at all, which is the only reason Destiny has to make this post in the first place. If you think this is Destiny being a douche then I'd like to see how you would respond to someone who has broken repeated promises, ignored you, and refused to pay you for half a years worth of your full time job.
No one is asking you to like Destiny. I don't particularly like Destiny a lot of the time. But this Destiny hate is getting stupid.
On January 18 2013 12:54 FXOBoSs wrote: I brought up similar issues, such as slow payment, incorrect fill rates, deceiving the public etc. a long time ago on my blog. They have been around for a long time, twitch has since fixed it to the best of their ability. But things could be a lot better overall in the industry.
I only remember your rant about how youtube was the way to go. Okay, after going through like 14 or so pages and I found it. Remember that conversation now and heck that was over a year ago. >_<
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay.
True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field.
Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt.
Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria.
He lives in the United States. Can you sue people and then not show up for the court case, because I think he might have to fly there to sue them? Here in the US you need to show up in Court at some point, even if you have an attorney. I don't know how you folks do things down there, though.
Without making this too complicated no he does not need to show up. Frankly depending on where the contract was signed and what they agreed on he might not even need to sue in Austria itself. If he does a lawyer can do everything that needs to be done. It might be a bit more annoying finding a lawyer and arranging skype calls and couriers to get all the necessary documents to that lawyer, but it's something I've personally done while working at a law office. It would probably increase the amount of money he has to pay the lawyer (most of them bill by the hour) but he would almost certainly come out with a profit.
One stumbling block might be if he lacks the funds to get the whole thing started, most lawyers require a deposit (the one where i worked usually required 500€ for stuff like this) in advance to work such a case. (Mostly because if things truly go to court you have to deposit a similar amount of cover the court date before it actually happens).
On January 18 2013 13:06 Nimic wrote: I'm not sure you can do that in Austria.
You can, though usually the going rate would be either higher or lower depending on the companies credit rating. It's fairly common for debts considered "too small" to involve a lawyer yourself.
Edit: regarding working for commission, no that is not allowed in Austria. The "Rechtsanwaltskammer" sets rates for the hour of work required, the rates vary by a lot depending on a number of factors (including the "Streitsumme" the amount owed basically) but they are set and it is expressively forbidden to go below them. It is considered fairly normal to only require a token sum in advance and pay most of the other fees out of the expected settlement, but that is usually for longstanding clients or buisness relationships.
I think that because e-sports is pretty young it's going to take mistakes like theses and companies like these before the industry itself actually matures. There will be companies that don't perform as well as others and they will need to be identified so that other companies, like Twitch, have the ability to grow. So, although this sucks for Destiny and anyone else that may have encountered similar problems it's somewhat necessary, in my opinion, to help the streaming industry. There could have been things done better on both sides but I do think that eventually the entire e-sports industry will have no more issues like this in the next couple of years!
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay.
True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field.
Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt.
Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria.
He lives in the United States. Can you sue people and then not show up for the court case, because I think he might have to fly there to sue them? Here in the US you need to show up in Court at some point, even if you have an attorney. I don't know how you folks do things down there, though.
He would likely win a case in US court, but enforcement would still be an issue.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay.
True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field.
Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt.
Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria.
But according to Destiny it says: "According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” " So that part reminds me a bit of the IEM price money delay story. "our sponsors dont pay on time - so we have to pay the players later".
Of course the other part is the whole 60% of subscribers stuff. Which is not excused by that.
Wow, this is terrible news, and it seems that it doesn't only happen to Destiny either
Yet another reason why Twitch >>> Own3d. Trying to get rich quick isn't worth trading away the quality of the better network or professionalism, not to mention actually getting the money at all!
On January 18 2013 12:56 Rah wrote: It's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny, he acts like a douche even while he's being wronged. Doesn't bode well for Own3d but at least they stayed professional in the dialogue I guess.
Yeah, because its sooooooooo professional to not pay people their hard earned money.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay.
True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field.
Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt.
Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria.
He lives in the United States. Can you sue people and then not show up for the court case, because I think he might have to fly there to sue them? Here in the US you need to show up in Court at some point, even if you have an attorney. I don't know how you folks do things down there, though.
He would likely win a case in US court, but enforcement would still be an issue.
lawyer fees, court fees and other fees would probably amount to his yearly income
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Obvious answer. Suing costs a lot of money, time, and involves a high degree of uncertainty, especially if own3d is still unable to pay.
True point, even if you win a law the case, they may not pay. And then you need to spend more money force them to pay, which by that point, they may have no money. Its all being "judgment proof" in the legal field.
Please do not bring US law into a discussion regarding a firm which allegedly resides in Austria. Suing someone does not involve any degree of uncertainty over here. Either someone owes you a debt you can prove, or they don't. If they do your lawyer (technically you don't need one for something like this, but let's keep it simple) has about 1h work to prepare it for court. In most cases (as in about 80% of those i worked on), the firm mysteriously decided to pay up before the court date arrived, simply because they know just as well that "Schuldrecht" is very iron clad in Austria. All they can gain by not paying (or arranging a settlement of some kind) is getting the court costs (including execution of their assets) added on top of their debt.
Destiny has a contract of some kind, and he can clearly show that he did not receive any payment from July onwards (I think, would need to reread his post), that is more than enough to sue someone without incurring almost any cost in Austria.
He lives in the United States. Can you sue people and then not show up for the court case, because I think he might have to fly there to sue them? Here in the US you need to show up in Court at some point, even if you have an attorney. I don't know how you folks do things down there, though.
He would likely win a case in US court, but enforcement would still be an issue.
lawyer fees, court fees and other fees would probably amount to his yearly income
That depends how much he makes. Court fees might be a few hundred at most here, and I would take a simple contract case like this for about a grand (secure a summary judgment on this, assuming his story is true and the contract is legit).
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Its a company based out of Austria and lawyers are not cheap.
If you are a big time independent player with a contract like his. or you have a team......its a very good idea to have a lawyer just for shit like this. I know its eSports and them eSports dollars aren't always the most reliable, but to not get paid for nearly 6 months would definitely warrant a lawsuit even with the cheapest lawyers.
Lawyers are incredibly expensive in general...and frankly you can't hire any old lawyer...they have to have some expertise in contract disputes or they'll be utterly worthless.
In his contract he takes a 60% penalty on money earned/owed, which is probably favorable to shelling out to a lawyer.
All that aside people saying just sue over it or any contract dispute...are being naive at best in regards to legal costs.
To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
Number of anyone involved in esports who can afford those kinds of legal fees is next to none. Less a handful of entertainers, teams, and organizations who can and probably do spend money on that sort of thing. Quite a few 'contracts' at best are notarized and are not really drafted up by a lawyer.
Just some perspective as to why most players / people in esports appeal to the public rather then a lawyer.
This seems to be a case exclusive to destiny as I havent seen anyone else complaining about not getting paid by own3d or delayed payment. This is probably destiny doing what he does best, starting random shit to try to get views/attention.
On January 18 2013 13:40 LarJarsE wrote: This seems to be a case exclusive to destiny as I havent seen anyone else complaining about not getting paid by own3d or delayed payment. This is probably destiny doing what he does best, starting random shit to try to get views/attention.
A number of others have reported the same thing as destiny.
On January 18 2013 13:40 LarJarsE wrote: This seems to be a case exclusive to destiny as I havent seen anyone else complaining about not getting paid by own3d or delayed payment. This is probably destiny doing what he does best, starting random shit to try to get views/attention.
As a friendly suggestion...you may want to actually read a few follow up posts before posting.
On January 18 2013 13:40 LarJarsE wrote: This seems to be a case exclusive to destiny as I havent seen anyone else complaining about not getting paid by own3d or delayed payment. This is probably destiny doing what he does best, starting random shit to try to get views/attention.
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
On January 18 2013 13:40 LarJarsE wrote: This seems to be a case exclusive to destiny as I havent seen anyone else complaining about not getting paid by own3d or delayed payment. This is probably destiny doing what he does best, starting random shit to try to get views/attention.
Wrong. Come on do you even read or just blindly make statements.
Many people have this issue. All of TSM, Phantoml0rd, Guardsman, & many more have made the switch to Twitch.
This could well be within the remit of the small claims court which is a requirement under EU law. If this were the case then it would cost very little to take action.... Small breaches of contract in self-employment cases often go to court in the SCC. Representation isn't even needed: often it's just an hour briefing outlining the process. If this is the case in Austria then it would be simple for this guy to sort this out...
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Dunno about you TB, but I'm much more polite when I'm lying my ass off.
Refering to the argument about small claims court in austria, i'm curious as to what the monetary limit is for their small claims court regarding these matter?
He said on stream that the money owed is somewhere between "15 and 30 thousand dollars", without giving an exact amount. Depending on the state in the US, the limit tends to be around 10 thousand on these disputes, so I'm curious as to how something like that would be approached internationally.
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
. I'd suppose some of it is perspective, but in dealing with a contract dispute...I would highly doubt you get the job done in 200 bucks, it's not like you are going to traffic court on a speeding violation. If you pay for some cheapo lawyer and whoever you are going up against has a decent lawyer...you'll probably get your butt handed to you on a platter. Not to mention many of these disputes cross country lines which requires a different level of legal knowledge.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
This this this.
I own a small business. I communicate with my employees and clients via text message. On the other hand, I fulfill my obligations at the exact time that I promise I will or I refund their money and/or give them free stuff.
There is no excuse for paying someone late. If you can't trust someone to pay you in a timely fashion in the manner agreed upon, there is no reason to be doing business with them.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
So fucking true. I am a professional working for a professional lab, surrounded by professional people with doctorates. We all curse constantly. If a machine misbehaves we curse at it, if a person is dickish we curse at it. And if being polite was a necessity for being a professional, than maybe .001% of the scientists I have met are this mythical professional.
Doctors swear like sailors sometimes, lawyers most certainly do (although they can't in court rooms but still do sometime). The only time people aren't professional is when they violate some part of the professional code of conduct, the law, or the ethics of their profession.
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
What? Most lawyers won't even see you for a initial meeting for 200 bucks...
On January 18 2013 13:59 tribulator wrote: Refering to the argument about small claims court in austria, i'm curious as to what the monetary limit is for their small claims court regarding these matter?
He said on stream that the money owed is somewhere between "15 and 30 thousand dollars", without giving an exact amount. Depending on the state in the US, the limit tends to be around 10 thousand on these disputes, so I'm curious as to how something like that would be approached internationally.
Average limit in the US is 5k, some go up to 10k and a few are as low as 3k.
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote: Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.
We already determined that investigative journalism into esports business was unnecessary because there are no hidden stories from the public and it would be impossible to get people to talk on the record anyways. This was confirmed by multiple industry people here:
So we are left with slasher and esfi world volunteers to catch things like this. Everyone agreed esfi world was enough though so lets hope they keep up the good work!
I'm going to guess lots of people not getting payed by one of the major stream sites for so long were pretty talkative to their friends about this and that this news was not surprising information within the industry. Why didn't the story break from any of them sooner? I'm going to guess the answer was it is bad news so it would hurt esports but I could be wrong.
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
. I'd suppose some of it is perspective, but in dealing with a contract dispute...I would highly doubt you get the job done in 200 bucks, it's not like you are going to traffic court on a speeding violation. If you pay for some cheapo lawyer and whoever you are going up against has a decent lawyer...you'll probably get your butt handed to you on a platter. Not to mention many of these disputes cross country lines which requires a different level of legal knowledge.
Either way using public pressure is 100% cheaper.
Sorry, that was supposed to read $200/hr. I said I wouldn't expect it to cost me more than $1k, pending what information he has. I also don't charge $200 an hour... maybe I should though if people like you think that's "normal"...
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
What? Most lawyers won't even see you for a initial meeting for 200 bucks...
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
Um... I am a paralegal and I bill out at $105 an hour. My attorneys bill out at $205 and you cannot find a counsel in our area who bills out for less. We are not high end and there are firms that bill out at $400 an hours in out field. Lawyers cost a lot of money. If they don't, you are hiring a shitty lawyer.
People do not respect that level fees cost a shit ton of money. Nothing is cheap in law.
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
. I'd suppose some of it is perspective, but in dealing with a contract dispute...I would highly doubt you get the job done in 200 bucks, it's not like you are going to traffic court on a speeding violation. If you pay for some cheapo lawyer and whoever you are going up against has a decent lawyer...you'll probably get your butt handed to you on a platter. Not to mention many of these disputes cross country lines which requires a different level of legal knowledge.
Either way using public pressure is 100% cheaper.
Sorry, that was supposed to read $200/hr. I said I wouldn't expect it to cost me more than $1k, pending what information he has. I also don't charge $200 an hour... maybe I should though if people like you think that's "normal"...
I did say 75 to 300 per hour...either way the only point I was trying to make is it's a bit silly that people always jump into these contract dispute threads screaming 'sue them'. There is a ton more financially that goes into 'just sue them', that makes it not always a great option vs. use public pressure.
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
What? Most lawyers won't even see you for a initial meeting for 200 bucks...
Then I'm not most.
No, you are a rare breed. Most cost a lot. I cost a lot and I am only a paralegal.
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
Um... I am a paralegal and I bill out at $105 an hour. My attorneys bill out at $205 and you cannot find a counsel in our area who bills out for less. We are not high end and there are firms that bill out at $400 an hours in out field. Lawyers cost a lot of money. If they don't, you are hiring a shitty lawyer.
People do not respect that level fees cost a shit ton of money. Nothing is cheap in law.
Quick question on Legal fees would the people involved not be able to form 1 lawsuit and sue for legal fees as well as payment? This is payment they are due by contract they shouldn't be having to sue just wondering
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
Um... I am a paralegal and I bill out at $105 an hour. My attorneys bill out at $205 and you cannot find a counsel in our area who bills out for less. We are not high end and there are firms that bill out at $400 an hours in out field. Lawyers cost a lot of money. If they don't, you are hiring a shitty lawyer.
People do not respect that level fees cost a shit ton of money. Nothing is cheap in law.
o.O
What state/city are you in?
Boston, Ma. Highest cost of living outside of NYC. We cost a lot, because everything else costs a lot.
Thread's been put on Community News & Headlines now. Own3d better get on the damage control quick if they want to salvage any semblance of a reputation.
Hi. My name is Destiny, and I am one of the most prolific streamers in the world at the moment. I stream League of Legends, primarily, and I used to stream Starcraft 2.
In December of 2011, I was approached by own3d.tv to switch over from twitch.tv. I wrote a relatively detailed article explaining that my decision was primarily motivated by financial reasons. Basically, own3d.tv promised me more money for advertising plus a cash incentive for signing up with them. According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” I was also promised “60% of all Premium Subscription” revenue, referring to the people that subscribed to me via the $5/month system on own3d.
Let’s look at a few different things that I was promised as part of my contract:
Signing Bonus Upon signing up with own3d.tv, they agreed to pay me a cash incentive bonus for signing up with their service. According to the contract, “50% upfront payments for the first month” was to be paid out. I also had a smaller amount ($5,000) to be used for an event of my choice, such as hosting a tournament or showmatch series, that own3d.tv would put up for me. In requesting whether or not the cash incentive would be paid out, I contacted Oleg (CEO of own3d.tv) multiple times [1] [2]. After the first three times, he said that it would be wired to me next week, back in April. I inquired again about it and received no response, then was assured sometime in May that I’d be receiving it within the week. Finally, on May 25th, Oleg assured me that the signing bonus was wired to me. Of course, later I’d find out it was only 1/3rd of what I was owed, and that I’d be receiving it in 1/3rd “chunks” over the next few months. So after 7 months of streaming with own3d, I was finally paid my cash incentive for signing up with them. Not the greatest, but at least I received all of it.
Event Bonus I was given a certain dollar amount “to be managed by own3D.tv to run events for the Publisher.” As time went on with own3d.tv, my paychecks gradually came in later and later. They were incredibly unreliable with paying me, and I was incredibly uncomfortable trying to manage an event with them being responsible for paying anything out. I wasn’t willing to risk my name and reputation with them in regards to paying out prizes or payments. As a compromise, I inquired about using my event budget to schedule a trip to Poland to stay at the Ministry of Win with my family. Although this wasn’t in the contract, Oleg assured me it would be okay via Skype on June 12th. At this time, I told Ministry of Win I would be coming to visit them and entered contract negotiations with them for my stay. I messaged Oleg later asking how I would go about booking the plane tickets, but (as usual) received no response. Eventually I received an e-mail from someone working with own3d.tv that it would be impossible to use it unless I signed another contract with them to “unlock” the money. Since they were incredibly shaky with payments (among other things) I imagine they were worried that I would be switching streaming platforms upon the expiration of my contract. That’s just conjecture, of course. Finally, Oleg told me on Skype that it would be impossible to use said funds for traveling.
As of January 17th, I haven’t been able to use this event money for anything, and I assume that I’ll never have the opportunity to.
Paychecks By the time August rolled around, I had to pester Oleg fairly often on Skype about when paychecks were going out. When we got to September, paychecks were being paid months late. Oleg became increasingly less responsive on Skype. At this point I was stuck in Poland after having exhausted a large majority of my savings. I could barely afford food and necessities for my child and his mother while staying there.
The last paycheck I received from own3d was marked for July. I don’t believe I will ever be paid for the last 5 months I streamed with them. I’m trying to keep this as formal and non-sensationalist as possible, but it’s hard to imagine the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I get from even typing that out.
Subscriptions On own3d.tv you had the option to subscribe to my stream for a fee of $5.00/month. I was promised to be compensated for 60% of the revenue generated from subscribers. I love and appreciate all of you guys that subscribed to me more than you will ever imagine, but I was never (and probably will never be) paid for anyone who subscribed to my stream. own3d.tv literally pocketed that money and kept it for themselves. I pestered numerous times on Skype for it, but was never given a flat answer.
Other problems Among all of the other silly problems that came along with such a newly emerging technology such as streaming, one of the most pervasive and disruptive problems I had was with transcodes. The transcodes on my stream (the ability to watch in a lower resolution at a lower framerate) were consistently laggy or otherwise unwatchable. Based on my estimates from when I’ve streamed in the past, about 40% of a person’s audience of a 1080p or 60fps stream is watching transcodes. My transcodes were consistently broken and I feel as though it impacted my viewership, especially during my later months with own3d.
———————
To summarize, during the first few months, aside from not being paid for subscriptions or my cash incentive, things were relatively okay. As the year continued on, however, things became unbearable for me. Everything came to a head when I was essentially forced to switch from own3d.tv to twitch.tv before my contract end date in December. I hadn’t received a paycheck in so long that I was becoming worried about my ability to provide for my family while in Poland (or when we returned home) so I switched to twitch.tv 2 weeks before my contract’s end date in order to pursue a more reliable paycheck.
This was the conversation I had with Oleg in regards to leaving earlier than planned -
Of course as I’ve already left, now all of the promises are being made in regards to fixing the transcodes and what not. And of course my payments were late due to both hurricane Sandy and CBS not paying own3d.tv on time. I’m not sure how that affects all of the previous months of being paid so horrendously late, but whatever.
Penalty for leaving the contract early The reason I left my contract early was because I was well aware of the penalties for leaving. They were expressly written in the contract I signed and agreed to, and a simple cost-benefit analysis would show that it was worth it for me to bail on the contract 2 weeks early.
My penalty for leaving the contract early is as outlined, quoted from my contract -
“In case of termination without good reason and without any breach of obligations – the terminating party is obliged to pay a termination penalty. The penalty fee amounts to 60 percent of the average monthly revenues (including sponsorship fees) that have been generated before termination for the remaining months of the Agreement. For example, if the contract is terminated after 10 months and average monthly revenues have been $1000 during this period – the terminating party is obliged to pay $600 for the remaining 8 months of the contract or $4800.”
That means that I should have owed own3d.tv half of ~60% of my average revenue for a month. This penalty was nothing considering my last paycheck from them was marked for July.
Here is my final conversation with Oleg, where he threatens that his lawyers had frozen paychecks to me (because I’m sure he was just -just- about to send them out) due to me leaving the contract early -
Of course at the end he assures me that I will be paid eventually, but that was early December, and he has since stopped responding to my inquiries.
————————–
My motivation for writing this is that I hope to dissuade others from signing up with own3d or making any kind of agreements with them in the future. I am in an incredibly tight bind, financially, as I’m finally coming to accept that I worked entirely for free for half of 2012. If you subscribe to streamers on own3d, I would hope that you check with the streamer to make sure they’re actually being paid, otherwise you’re essentially shipping off $5/month to own3d with no benefit (actually, a detriment since you see no ads) whatsoever to the streamer. If you’re an aspiring streamer or a member of a pro team and you’re looking to set up a stream for yourself or your team, I would highly encourage you to stay away from own3d.
I don't think many pro's use Own3d so kinda irrelevant, not to mention the ones that do are sponsored and don't have a private contract going on
Was gonna say something snarky about your post, then I saw your sig. Makes sense lol.
Wow...I'm not a Destiny fan (I don't play zerg or LoL) but seeing how he hasn't been paid for months and having difficulties supporting his family makes me really sad. Hopefully this gets sorted out soon because I do watch ForGG's stream which is also on Own3d...
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote: Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.
We already determined that investigative journalism into esports business was unnecessary because there are no hidden stories from the public and it would be impossible to get people to talk on the record anyways. This was confirmed by multiple industry people here:
So we are left with slasher and esfi world volunteers to catch things like this. Everyone agreed esfi world was enough though so lets hope they keep up the good work!
I'm going to guess lots of people not getting payed by one of the major stream sites for so long were pretty talkative to their friends about this and that this news was not surprising information within the industry. Why didn't the story break from any of them sooner? I'm going to guess the answer was it is bad news so it would hurt esports but I could be wrong.
I'd say it's because people getting paid late / contracts not being held up is extremely common in esports. Players have very little rights.
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
What? Most lawyers won't even see you for a initial meeting for 200 bucks...
Then I'm not most.
I mean you can always get an attorney for free from the state.... but the 2 times I've had to appear in court I paid around 2k in total lawyer fees each time and I was getting a pretty nice personal discount. Yea I bought a high end lawyer but it ended up saving me money/time/hassle in court.
On January 18 2013 14:15 CajunMan wrote: Quick question on Legal fees would the people involved not be able to form 1 lawsuit and sue for legal fees as well as payment? This is payment they are due by contract they shouldn't be having to sue just wondering
Ok, Boston doesn't surprise me that much.
This can depend on jurisdiction and/or the terms of the contract. As a default rule, however, the answer is no in the USA.
On January 18 2013 12:40 TotalBiscuit wrote: Can someone tell me where all the eSports journalists were to break this story? This is actual important shit vital to the health of the scene and not a fucking peep for the many months it's supposedly been going on.
We already determined that investigative journalism into esports business was unnecessary because there are no hidden stories from the public and it would be impossible to get people to talk on the record anyways. This was confirmed by multiple industry people here:
So we are left with slasher and esfi world volunteers to catch things like this. Everyone agreed esfi world was enough though so lets hope they keep up the good work!
I'm going to guess lots of people not getting payed by one of the major stream sites for so long were pretty talkative to their friends about this and that this news was not surprising information within the industry. Why didn't the story break from any of them sooner? I'm going to guess the answer was it is bad news so it would hurt esports but I could be wrong.
I'd say it's because people getting paid late / contracts not being held up is extremely common in esports. Players have very little rights.
To be honest, how many of you guys actually retain lawyers and make them pay? How many of you consult a lawyer before signing sponsorship contracts? When's the last time someone has sued for delivery of money they were promised?
You can't really fault the sponsors and event organizers for not upholding their end if you guys are never going to hold them to their word. I mean, yeah, I know you're not the ones at fault, but seriously, stand up for yourselves once in a while.
I have to say that I'm a little pleased to hear this because it hopefully means own3d is on the way out. In the time twitch has made tons of big improvements I've seen very little from own3d. Their player is clunky and laggy (moving the mouse over the video to reveal the UI turns the video into a slideshow on older computers), their stream quality seems worse overall than twitch (plus it takes forever for the video to load compared to twitch), and I can't recall seeing any big effort to get involved in the community like twitch has (though I may have missed something on that front). It took own3d months to fix a bug where volume wouldn't stay muted. I pretty much dread having to watch stuff on own3d and am relieved when something turns out to be on twitch.
As much as it would be nice to have competition for twitch to gauge themselves against, I think twitch is so far ahead of own3d that it doesn't bear comparing. I do hope the streamers can get their money in the end, of course. And I hope that twitch has gotten or will get their act together in Europe so EU guys can get lag-free streams
On January 18 2013 14:15 AgentW wrote: Thread's been put on Community News & Headlines now. Own3d better get on the damage control quick if they want to salvage any semblance of a reputation.
I think its the right step. This is pretty big news.. and its not good news.
On January 18 2013 13:36 Nerski wrote: To keep a half way competent lawyer on retainer you are probably talking 5k to 15k. Hourly wages to just hire a lawyer are anywhere between $75 to $300 per/hr.
I think you have very overinflated ideas of what a lawyer costs. Anything over $200 is simply a ripoff (unless you're super rich and simply want the .001% most experienced guy ever), even for a super specialist. And contracts isn't exactly that specialized, every lawyer has to take the basics.
What? Most lawyers won't even see you for a initial meeting for 200 bucks...
Then I'm not most.
I mean you can always get an attorney for free from the state.... but the 2 times I've had to appear in court I paid around 2k in total lawyer fees each time and I was getting a pretty nice personal discount. Yea I bought a high end lawyer but it ended up saving me money/time/hassle in court.
That's only true in criminal courts if you don't have enough money. Also, some of those lawyers are damn good, better than some privately retained lawyers.
On January 18 2013 14:15 AgentW wrote: Thread's been put on Community News & Headlines now. Own3d better get on the damage control quick if they want to salvage any semblance of a reputation.
You'd imagine they would have done that when it was #1 on all of reddit earlier today for a few hours... it even beat out a cat picture.
i heard some of this stuff was happening, didnt know so much of it was going on . I hope this kind of shit get sorted out fast...but i guess its the growing pains of esports in general.
It's hard to get legal fees recovery but in some instances it is possible.
Suing is a very expensive and time consuming process and since this is against a company, they probably have money and access to better attorneys etc. I have heard from many of my fellow students (I am taking law at the moment) that their firms don't even consider cases that clients pay under $30k for medium cases because it's not worth it to the firm for its time and man power.
This type of case you really need a lawyer to navigate the mine field with you from beginning to end if you want to be successful so =\ it's hard to get justice. I feel for the scene in this regard.
It's no secret, in the past I have expressed my deep dislike for this individual. However, no one, NO ONE should be scammed like this. Even without the family involved, he is doing this for a living. I have no clue how he keeps up with bills (unless checks are that substantial)... owned needs to be brought to justice, not just for his family, not for all the other streamers being scammed, but out of principal. Too many sites get away with banking off of others successes.
On January 18 2013 14:30 Grettin wrote: Doesn't surprise me one bit and frankly, i won't feel a thing when the whole company goes down. Twitch is far superior in many ways anyway.
Sad to hear that people are missing their paychecks though.
Agreed, sorry for the people hurt but they can switch over to twitch once Own3d is out of business. We must wash away the stain they have left on the industry post-haste!
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
While TB may have used a bit too harsh language... he did make a good point that too often what is called professional is in fact just polite. He didn't quote you with your username or anything, so I wouldn't take it as a direct attack. I think his goal was just to point out that the community has different viewpoints on what professional means.
Which has nothing to do with the conversation we're having here, so how about you shut the fuck up and read the rest of my post.. Not you Eventine but the mob that's got a taste for blood suddenly.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
Dude he has been working a job and not getting paid.. Are you honestly defending not paying an employee because the guy was angry when he didn't get paid?
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
Dude he has been working a job and not getting paid.. Are you honestly defending not paying an employee because the guy was angry when he didn't get paid?
No so stop getting carried away with the accusations.
On January 18 2013 14:54 Rah wrote: Which has nothing to do with the conversation we're having here, so how about you shut the fuck up and read the rest of my post.. Not you Eventine but the mob that's got a taste for blood suddenly.
Because responding just as blood thirsty and with the same exact wording "shut the fuck up" is surely going to get people on your side. I'm all against being politically correct, however it works. And being an assclown because people want to discuss particular portions of everything isn't going to help you. The entire thing is up to be viewed and criticized, whether that means the fact that they didn't pay, or the professionalism, or whatever else people deem appropriate to discuss.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
Dude he has been working a job and not getting paid.. Are you honestly defending not paying an employee because the guy was angry when he didn't get paid?
No so stop getting carried away with the accusations.
That's not an accusation. Rofl. Why in the fuck are you so against Destiny? I understand the hate for him, I'm not a fan either. But to not pay somebody when they did what they said they were going to do is bullshit. Even if it's your worst enemy, because one day that could be way. It is black and white. He signed a contract, they didn't pay. What the fuck is hard to comprehend about that?
On January 18 2013 14:54 Rah wrote: Which has nothing to do with the conversation we're having here, so how about you shut the fuck up and read the rest of my post.. Not you Eventine but the mob that's got a taste for blood suddenly.
Because responding just as blood thirsty and with the same exact wording "shut the fuck up" is surely going to get people on your side. I'm all against being politically correct, however it works. And being an assclown because people want to discuss particular portions of everything isn't going to help you. The entire thing is up to be viewed and criticized, whether that means the fact that they didn't pay, or the professionalism, or whatever else people deem appropriate to discuss.
That's fine, but I came back to two pages of people slamming me for a point I didn't even make, and there it almost started up again.. People on the internet, whatever.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
Dude he has been working a job and not getting paid.. Are you honestly defending not paying an employee because the guy was angry when he didn't get paid?
No so stop getting carried away with the accusations.
ambivalent about Destiny but he's outlined some clear information about getting screwed by Own3d. IMO that 'polite' patter is pretty much pre-emptive passive aggressive behaviour. They knew they owed him money but by trying to keep him (and others I guess) at arms length and saying they were 'working on it' they make Destiny... or anyone that escalated the situation via rougher language etc look like a douche.
I would have worded it differently but I fully agree with TB. Politeness does not = professionalism. It can be a great mask for the shitty behaviour you are trying to get away with.
Sucks that Destiny and Co are yet to be paid for a substantial amount of work. While we've had a lot of these sort of situations it's good that the shabby muppets are gradually being weeded out.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
While TB may have used a bit too harsh language... he did make a good point that too often what is called professional is in fact just polite. He didn't quote you with your username or anything, so I wouldn't take it as a direct attack. I think his goal was just to point out that the community has different viewpoints on what professional means.
I'm not sure TB's point fulfills the criteria of what professionalism is though... yes its more than speaking politely but failing to meet contractual obligations under x circumstances does not mean a lack of professionalism as a number of factors could influence ones ability to complete, Most recently the slasher incident. Where EG promise more click traffic due to announcement which was blown before hand by slasher resulting in EG not meet that obligation but does that mean a lack of professionalism? I wouldn't think so.... but I do agree with the sentiment that is the wild west at the moment.
My take is that we are moving into an age of 'attention' economics and being so new like the gold rush we're still waiting for stability which requires a number of booms and bust cycles to weed out the root.
Do players have agents or representation in any form? Without it (and even with it, but it would help) players will suffer from a huge imbalance of power. This sort of thing really pisses me off and it makes me want to get involved. I'm about to finish law school and I wonder if representing players is viable economically. I hope so.
I don't understand why players/teams continue to do business with an organization after it's breached the contract. If payment is not rendered as per the contract then it is breached and no longer valid. I don't understand why Destiny would take an early termination fee when they haven't lived up to their end of the bargain. While in most cases I would expect some leeway, 30-90days beyond that take your services elsewhere.
Hi. My name is Destiny, and I am one of the most prolific streamers in the world at the moment. I stream League of Legends, primarily, and I used to stream Starcraft 2.
In December of 2011, I was approached by own3d.tv to switch over from twitch.tv. I wrote a relatively detailed article explaining that my decision was primarily motivated by financial reasons. Basically, own3d.tv promised me more money for advertising plus a cash incentive for signing up with them. According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” I was also promised “60% of all Premium Subscription” revenue, referring to the people that subscribed to me via the $5/month system on own3d.
Let’s look at a few different things that I was promised as part of my contract:
Signing Bonus Upon signing up with own3d.tv, they agreed to pay me a cash incentive bonus for signing up with their service. According to the contract, “50% upfront payments for the first month” was to be paid out. I also had a smaller amount ($5,000) to be used for an event of my choice, such as hosting a tournament or showmatch series, that own3d.tv would put up for me. In requesting whether or not the cash incentive would be paid out, I contacted Oleg (CEO of own3d.tv) multiple times [1] [2]. After the first three times, he said that it would be wired to me next week, back in April. I inquired again about it and received no response, then was assured sometime in May that I’d be receiving it within the week. Finally, on May 25th, Oleg assured me that the signing bonus was wired to me. Of course, later I’d find out it was only 1/3rd of what I was owed, and that I’d be receiving it in 1/3rd “chunks” over the next few months. So after 7 months of streaming with own3d, I was finally paid my cash incentive for signing up with them. Not the greatest, but at least I received all of it.
Event Bonus I was given a certain dollar amount “to be managed by own3D.tv to run events for the Publisher.” As time went on with own3d.tv, my paychecks gradually came in later and later. They were incredibly unreliable with paying me, and I was incredibly uncomfortable trying to manage an event with them being responsible for paying anything out. I wasn’t willing to risk my name and reputation with them in regards to paying out prizes or payments. As a compromise, I inquired about using my event budget to schedule a trip to Poland to stay at the Ministry of Win with my family. Although this wasn’t in the contract, Oleg assured me it would be okay via Skype on June 12th. At this time, I told Ministry of Win I would be coming to visit them and entered contract negotiations with them for my stay. I messaged Oleg later asking how I would go about booking the plane tickets, but (as usual) received no response. Eventually I received an e-mail from someone working with own3d.tv that it would be impossible to use it unless I signed another contract with them to “unlock” the money. Since they were incredibly shaky with payments (among other things) I imagine they were worried that I would be switching streaming platforms upon the expiration of my contract. That’s just conjecture, of course. Finally, Oleg told me on Skype that it would be impossible to use said funds for traveling.
As of January 17th, I haven’t been able to use this event money for anything, and I assume that I’ll never have the opportunity to.
Paychecks By the time August rolled around, I had to pester Oleg fairly often on Skype about when paychecks were going out. When we got to September, paychecks were being paid months late. Oleg became increasingly less responsive on Skype. At this point I was stuck in Poland after having exhausted a large majority of my savings. I could barely afford food and necessities for my child and his mother while staying there.
The last paycheck I received from own3d was marked for July. I don’t believe I will ever be paid for the last 5 months I streamed with them. I’m trying to keep this as formal and non-sensationalist as possible, but it’s hard to imagine the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I get from even typing that out.
Subscriptions On own3d.tv you had the option to subscribe to my stream for a fee of $5.00/month. I was promised to be compensated for 60% of the revenue generated from subscribers. I love and appreciate all of you guys that subscribed to me more than you will ever imagine, but I was never (and probably will never be) paid for anyone who subscribed to my stream. own3d.tv literally pocketed that money and kept it for themselves. I pestered numerous times on Skype for it, but was never given a flat answer.
Other problems Among all of the other silly problems that came along with such a newly emerging technology such as streaming, one of the most pervasive and disruptive problems I had was with transcodes. The transcodes on my stream (the ability to watch in a lower resolution at a lower framerate) were consistently laggy or otherwise unwatchable. Based on my estimates from when I’ve streamed in the past, about 40% of a person’s audience of a 1080p or 60fps stream is watching transcodes. My transcodes were consistently broken and I feel as though it impacted my viewership, especially during my later months with own3d.
———————
To summarize, during the first few months, aside from not being paid for subscriptions or my cash incentive, things were relatively okay. As the year continued on, however, things became unbearable for me. Everything came to a head when I was essentially forced to switch from own3d.tv to twitch.tv before my contract end date in December. I hadn’t received a paycheck in so long that I was becoming worried about my ability to provide for my family while in Poland (or when we returned home) so I switched to twitch.tv 2 weeks before my contract’s end date in order to pursue a more reliable paycheck.
This was the conversation I had with Oleg in regards to leaving earlier than planned -
Of course as I’ve already left, now all of the promises are being made in regards to fixing the transcodes and what not. And of course my payments were late due to both hurricane Sandy and CBS not paying own3d.tv on time. I’m not sure how that affects all of the previous months of being paid so horrendously late, but whatever.
Penalty for leaving the contract early The reason I left my contract early was because I was well aware of the penalties for leaving. They were expressly written in the contract I signed and agreed to, and a simple cost-benefit analysis would show that it was worth it for me to bail on the contract 2 weeks early.
My penalty for leaving the contract early is as outlined, quoted from my contract -
“In case of termination without good reason and without any breach of obligations – the terminating party is obliged to pay a termination penalty. The penalty fee amounts to 60 percent of the average monthly revenues (including sponsorship fees) that have been generated before termination for the remaining months of the Agreement. For example, if the contract is terminated after 10 months and average monthly revenues have been $1000 during this period – the terminating party is obliged to pay $600 for the remaining 8 months of the contract or $4800.”
That means that I should have owed own3d.tv half of ~60% of my average revenue for a month. This penalty was nothing considering my last paycheck from them was marked for July.
Here is my final conversation with Oleg, where he threatens that his lawyers had frozen paychecks to me (because I’m sure he was just -just- about to send them out) due to me leaving the contract early -
Of course at the end he assures me that I will be paid eventually, but that was early December, and he has since stopped responding to my inquiries.
————————–
My motivation for writing this is that I hope to dissuade others from signing up with own3d or making any kind of agreements with them in the future. I am in an incredibly tight bind, financially, as I’m finally coming to accept that I worked entirely for free for half of 2012. If you subscribe to streamers on own3d, I would hope that you check with the streamer to make sure they’re actually being paid, otherwise you’re essentially shipping off $5/month to own3d with no benefit (actually, a detriment since you see no ads) whatsoever to the streamer. If you’re an aspiring streamer or a member of a pro team and you’re looking to set up a stream for yourself or your team, I would highly encourage you to stay away from own3d.
Eh, I guess that's down to personal preference, I don't hate him enough to go out of my way to prevent him from getting money. That said I guess it's alright to have the text here
It's just that he plays LoL and this is the SC2 subforum, not the general subforum
That shouldn't have anything to do with it. He's an important figure for the StarCraft 2 community. I personally can't stand the guy, but it shouldn't matter what game he plays now; because regardless of what he's doing now he still was a big name in the StarCraft 2 community. Also, the subject of the matter has nothing to do with the fact that Destiny plays League, but rather that he is streaming video games.
Twitch isn't getting mixed up in nonsense like this, right? own3d not paying sucks, just like the quality of streaming they have, so I think it'd actually better if esports rallied unanimously behind a company like Twitch
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
what's wrong with you?
IF a person worked for half a year not receiving ANY stable form of payment and you don't feel nothing for him, then obviously something is wrong about you. Maybe you haven't worked before? Or maybe you don't understand his circumstances just because you don't like the guy?
On January 18 2013 15:09 DavoS wrote: Twitch isn't getting mixed up in nonsense like this, right? own3d not paying sucks, just like the quality of streaming they have, so I think it'd actually better if esports rallied unanimously behind a company like Twitch
I believe everyone has said that twitch is fine and they haven't had these issues with them.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
what's wrong with you?
IF a person worked for half a year not receiving ANY stable form of payment and you don't feel nothing for him, then obviously something is wrong about you. Maybe you haven't worked before? Or maybe you don't understand his circumstances just because you don't like the guy?
Said this already... imagine not getting a paycheck for 6 months. Yeah. It sucks. Imagine sucking up your savings because you aren't getting a paycheck, and those bills haven't stopped. Yeah. It also sucks.
Regardless of whether or not you like the guy, he did work, so he deserves to be paid.
I've always intrinsically trusted twitch.tv/justin.tv b/c of their reputable silicon valley investors (fwiw). Plus you can always post something on Hacker News to complain.
Tobi Wan (Dota 2 famous caster) is testing a twitch stream for the first time right now: http://www.twitch.tv/tobiwandota after such a long time of complete dedication to Own3d. Just thought it might be related.
I'm not sure TB's point fulfills the criteria of what professionalism is though... yes its more than speaking politely but failing to meet contractual obligations under x circumstances does not mean a lack of professionalism as a number of factors could influence ones ability to complete, Most recently the slasher incident. Where EG promise more click traffic due to announcement which was blown before hand by slasher resulting in EG not meet that obligation but does that mean a lack of professionalism? I wouldn't think so.... but I do agree with the sentiment that is the wild west at the moment.
My take is that we are moving into an age of 'attention' economics and being so new like the gold rush we're still waiting for stability which requires a number of booms and bust cycles to weed out the root.
No, fuck no. There is no excuse for not paying out your talent on time. If I didn't pay my staff on time they'd fucking leave and rightfully so. What if I delayed paying the Axiom players and that got out? Would you defend me? You shouldn't, because I am contractually obliged to. Fulfilling your promises is the very essence of what professionalism entails. The EG comparison is a poor one, it is not the same as signing someone up to an agreement to pay X CPM on a monthly basis as well as X% of subscriber fees and then not doing it. That isn't just unprofessional, it's flat out illegal. Internet slap to anyone who feels otherwise.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
what's wrong with you?
IF a person worked for half a year not receiving ANY stable form of payment and you don't feel nothing for him, then obviously something is wrong about you. Maybe you haven't worked before? Or maybe you don't understand his circumstances just because you don't like the guy?
I'll do one more comment on here for the people who are illiterate enough to keep fueling this argument, or maybe I wasn't clear. I never sided against Destiny on this. I said I couldn't sympathize with him, because he's done worse shit. I never sided with Own3d, I don't plan to use that site unless this somehow gets cleared up. Anyone still throwing the accusation around after that, I can't help you. You clowns are just looking for someone to rage at.
My team is sponsored by own3D's streaming platform, and we are facing the same issues with our contract with own3D.
We were promised monthly pay after a number of hours of streaming, however, even though we have met the requirements, we haven't gotten any message or money from own3D for the past 3 months.
On January 18 2013 15:08 VillageBC wrote: I don't understand why players/teams continue to do business with an organization after it's breached the contract. If payment is not rendered as per the contract then it is breached and no longer valid. I don't understand why Destiny would take an early termination fee when they haven't lived up to their end of the bargain. While in most cases I would expect some leeway, 30-90days beyond that take your services elsewhere.
I would guess that he'd take the early termination fee because he wants to get paid something. If own3d won't pay him 100% of what he's due, he was probably hoping that they'd pay him 50% (or X%) of what he's due to keep this quiet. For him, that works out a lot better than getting nothing for 6 months of work.
However, we've now gotten to the point where he's still gotten nothing and so he's making it public.
According to the contract, own3d.tv would pay “within 30 (thirty) days of receipt of revenues from advertising.” - that is a fucking mindblower. Virtually they covered their ass, so that they can pay people whenever they want. Aren't such clauses illegal in US? I thought Poland has payment gridlock problems, but US?
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
what's wrong with you?
IF a person worked for half a year not receiving ANY stable form of payment and you don't feel nothing for him, then obviously something is wrong about you. Maybe you haven't worked before? Or maybe you don't understand his circumstances just because you don't like the guy?
I'll do one more comment on here for the people who are illiterate enough to keep fueling this argument, or maybe I wasn't clear. I never sided against Destiny on this. I said I couldn't sympathize with him, because he's done worse shit. I never sided with Own3d, I don't plan to use that site unless this somehow gets cleared up. Anyone still throwing the accusation around after that, I can't help you. You clowns are just looking for someone to rage at.
Worse shit? Worse that not paying someone for 6 months? I'd love to hear that. He's done some stupid shit in the past... but nothing actually bad.
My experience with own3d has been negative, to say the least. Constantly laggy streams and chatrooms that didn't work. Hopefully they shape up or good riddance to them if they lose all their business.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
what's wrong with you?
IF a person worked for half a year not receiving ANY stable form of payment and you don't feel nothing for him, then obviously something is wrong about you. Maybe you haven't worked before? Or maybe you don't understand his circumstances just because you don't like the guy?
Said this already... imagine not getting a paycheck for 6 months. Yeah. It sucks. Imagine sucking up your savings because you aren't getting a paycheck, and those bills haven't stopped. Yeah. It also sucks.
Regardless of whether or not you like the guy, he did work, so he deserves to be paid.
In defense of the poor guy getting bashed, Destiny is not an employee of Own3d, he's an independent contractor.
And this wasn't 6 months worth of problems, this came to a head in November when he switched to Twitch. There's a lot that is unsaid about what he was doing for three months while apparently not being paid and then deliberately breaking his contract two weeks before its end date.
I think saying it's hard to sympathize with Destiny was a poor choice of words, but he seemed to have as big a problem with transcoding as he did with not being paid. His story is focused more on trashing Own3d than getting paid, which seems like a douche-y thing to do although the missing piece is that he's given up on getting his money.
On January 18 2013 15:26 Bagration wrote: Jesus, that is quite a big deal. Why the hell was this kept silent for so long? I'm surprised that this did not get attention earlier.
My bet is that people haven't said anything because they are all hoping that the money would come through. I think Destiny has just resigned himself to never getting the money, so has just decided to shame Own3d.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
While TB may have used a bit too harsh language... he did make a good point that too often what is called professional is in fact just polite. He didn't quote you with your username or anything, so I wouldn't take it as a direct attack. I think his goal was just to point out that the community has different viewpoints on what professional means.
I'm not sure TB's point fulfills the criteria of what professionalism is though... yes its more than speaking politely but failing to meet contractual obligations under x circumstances does not mean a lack of professionalism as a number of factors could influence ones ability to complete, Most recently the slasher incident. Where EG promise more click traffic due to announcement which was blown before hand by slasher resulting in EG not meet that obligation but does that mean a lack of professionalism? I wouldn't think so.... but I do agree with the sentiment that is the wild west at the moment.
My take is that we are moving into an age of 'attention' economics and being so new like the gold rush we're still waiting for stability which requires a number of booms and bust cycles to weed out the root.
Actually, from a normal business standpoint, that DOES mean that EG lacked professionalism. Don't get me wrong, I take EG's side in the matter, but one of the reasons EG can be so angry at Slasher is because Slasher makes EG look so unprofessional by not being able to keep their own confidential information under wraps. Organizations need to be talking to other organizations to make sure no information is leaked, but not enough is being done to do so. Overall, the scene needs a big make over in order to move forward professionally, and some people are taking steps to help out, but EG looks bad due to their inability to keep Slasher from spilling the beans. So your example used to counteract TB's point is not a good one whatsoever.
You are right though in that this is an unstable period that needs to be looked at with economic logic and a plan come up with to make sure eSports comes out ahead and with a stable future afterwards.
Own3d has never been a great provider. They were a cheap alternative to Twitch, and they were mostly taken up by people who were promised a lot of stuff or who couldn't get sponsorships from Twitch (or Own3d just promised more). Twitch has always been better overall, in absolutely every single way. It wouldn't surprise me if Own3d has been cheating players, but aside from that, the only thing left to say is that activity like that is what's hurting the progress of the scene.
Only thing to hope is that people learn from this and everyone moves forward positively.
On January 18 2013 15:09 DavoS wrote: Twitch isn't getting mixed up in nonsense like this, right? own3d not paying sucks, just like the quality of streaming they have, so I think it'd actually better if esports rallied unanimously behind a company like Twitch
I think having some competition would be better than only having Twitch, just like having Dreamhack and MLG both exist is key. Own3d seems to be dedicated to kneecapping themselves though, so I guess it already isn't real competition.
Also, props to TL for putting this on the front page.
After it being late or not paid after like 6 weeks that should have been a red flag. Needed to lawyer up then and there. Im aware his money is tight but Own3d streams are garbage and have been that way for so long, why would someone pulling in his kind of numbers risk going to such a low quality service like them. :/ not a fan of destiny but no one should have to put up with this bs from anyone, hope he can get a lawyer together and get his money and then some.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
what's wrong with you?
IF a person worked for half a year not receiving ANY stable form of payment and you don't feel nothing for him, then obviously something is wrong about you. Maybe you haven't worked before? Or maybe you don't understand his circumstances just because you don't like the guy?
Said this already... imagine not getting a paycheck for 6 months. Yeah. It sucks. Imagine sucking up your savings because you aren't getting a paycheck, and those bills haven't stopped. Yeah. It also sucks.
Regardless of whether or not you like the guy, he did work, so he deserves to be paid.
In defense of the poor guy getting bashed, Destiny is not an employee of Own3d, he's an independent contractor.
And this wasn't 6 months worth of problems, this came to a head in November when he switched to Twitch. There's a lot that is unsaid about what he was doing for three months while apparently not being paid and then deliberately breaking his contract two weeks before its end date.
I think saying it's hard to sympathize with Destiny was a poor choice of words, but he seemed to have as big a problem with transcoding as he did with not being paid. His story is focused more on trashing Own3d than getting paid, which seems like a douche-y thing to do although the missing piece is that he's given up on getting his money.
It was absolutely 6 months worth of problems, or did you just turn a blind eye to half the article?
On January 18 2013 15:33 Siwelcela wrote: After it being late or not paid after like 6 weeks that should have been a red flag. Needed to lawyer up then and there. Im aware his money is tight but Own3d streams are garbage and have been that way for so long, why would someone pulling in his kind of numbers risk going to such a low quality service like them. :/ not a fan of destiny but no one should have to put up with this bs from anyone, hope he can get a lawyer together and get his money and then some.
International law suit on a streamer's (who isn't being payed) salary... Yeah.... Sure....
On January 18 2013 15:33 Siwelcela wrote: After it being late or not paid after like 6 weeks that should have been a red flag. Needed to lawyer up then and there. Im aware his money is tight but Own3d streams are garbage and have been that way for so long, why would someone pulling in his kind of numbers risk going to such a low quality service like them. :/ not a fan of destiny but no one should have to put up with this bs from anyone, hope he can get a lawyer together and get his money and then some.
I dunno about lawyer up but I totally agree that he needed to take much more aggressive action after the first payment was weeks late.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
what's wrong with you?
IF a person worked for half a year not receiving ANY stable form of payment and you don't feel nothing for him, then obviously something is wrong about you. Maybe you haven't worked before? Or maybe you don't understand his circumstances just because you don't like the guy?
Said this already... imagine not getting a paycheck for 6 months. Yeah. It sucks. Imagine sucking up your savings because you aren't getting a paycheck, and those bills haven't stopped. Yeah. It also sucks.
Regardless of whether or not you like the guy, he did work, so he deserves to be paid.
In defense of the poor guy getting bashed, Destiny is not an employee of Own3d, he's an independent contractor.
And this wasn't 6 months worth of problems, this came to a head in November when he switched to Twitch. There's a lot that is unsaid about what he was doing for three months while apparently not being paid and then deliberately breaking his contract two weeks before its end date.
I think saying it's hard to sympathize with Destiny was a poor choice of words, but he seemed to have as big a problem with transcoding as he did with not being paid. His story is focused more on trashing Own3d than getting paid, which seems like a douche-y thing to do although the missing piece is that he's given up on getting his money.
It was absolutely 6 months worth of problems, or did you just turn a blind eye to half the article?
It is 6 months worth of problems today on January 18, 2013. It was 3 months worth of problems when he ditched Own3d in mid-November. It's still a big problem, but not as big as the pitchfork crowd is saying.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
what's wrong with you?
IF a person worked for half a year not receiving ANY stable form of payment and you don't feel nothing for him, then obviously something is wrong about you. Maybe you haven't worked before? Or maybe you don't understand his circumstances just because you don't like the guy?
I'll do one more comment on here for the people who are illiterate enough to keep fueling this argument, or maybe I wasn't clear. I never sided against Destiny on this. I said I couldn't sympathize with him, because he's done worse shit. I never sided with Own3d, I don't plan to use that site unless this somehow gets cleared up. Anyone still throwing the accusation around after that, I can't help you. You clowns are just looking for someone to rage at.
Done worse shit? Are you saying Shit talking and racists are worse than not paying for legit working hours? I don't think it's hard to feel sympathy for those who worked and didn't get paid, even if they have done "worse shit" and obviously it shouldn't be.
Thanks for letting us know you ain't using own3d but we don't care. We care for those who have used the service and got delayed payment like dimaga. Destiny has posted so to let the community know more about what happen with own3d as a warning to the others like you, so you can say things like just "stick with twitch"
This has been known in the LoL community for a while now since they all started switching. I read on reddit before that the rumour is own3d owes 500k in back pay to streamers. Not sure why none of the LoL streamers ever came forward, maybe out of fear or hope they would still get paid.
I'm sure it's been said in the previous 10 pages but sounds like he got Own3d by Own3d.tv.
I guess karma really is what people claim her to be. Own3d should have cancelled his contract like most of his other sponsors at the same time he got booted out of SC2.
Should have stayed with the proven, reliable Twitch.
This is why I left own3d.tv as well, it took 35 days to get my 2nd payment from them. I do this full time same as destiny and when I read that blog i knew exactly how he feels. I will say that the only contact that's actually worth anything in that community is Alan Jones, big thanks to him for making the payment actually happen, and he's not even part of the money side of things at own3d.
I wouldn't recommend own3d.tv to anyone who expects to get paid for streaming as they simply don't pay on time. Needless to say my life has been a mess since I started streaming with them.
On January 18 2013 15:51 Stonedviper wrote: I'm sure it's been said in the previous 10 pages but sounds like he got Own3d by Own3d.tv.
I guess karma really is what people claim her to be. Own3d should have cancelled his contract like most of his other sponsors at the same time he got booted out of SC2.
Should have stayed with the proven, reliable Twitch.
You seem a bit upset, and to be taking part in schadenfreude over a guy with a kid getting completely screwed out of money he needs. Classy post. Also twitch is still mediocre, streaming in general is. Either you have ridiculous viewer counts and a sub button or you get just enough money to drink yourself to sleep regularly. Youtube is and always has been better for money if you get a good following.
On January 18 2013 15:51 Stonedviper wrote: I'm sure it's been said in the previous 10 pages but sounds like he got Own3d by Own3d.tv.
I guess karma really is what people claim her to be. Own3d should have cancelled his contract like most of his other sponsors at the same time he got booted out of SC2.
Should have stayed with the proven, reliable Twitch.
What's wrong with you? Also, he didn't get "booted out" of Starcraft 2. He just switched games.
NaVi got contract with Own3d and it was horrible, in the beginning it seemed fine, but we didnt get paid for a long time;; after leaving navi i asked manager if there was any payment, and he said no only promising
Their player is crap. Their vods are still bugged. It has been known they didn't pay. They had potential to be better since all league players streamed on own3d at the start. Sadly nothing will match twitch monopoly
On January 18 2013 15:51 Stonedviper wrote: I'm sure it's been said in the previous 10 pages but sounds like he got Own3d by Own3d.tv.
I guess karma really is what people claim her to be. Own3d should have cancelled his contract like most of his other sponsors at the same time he got booted out of SC2.
Should have stayed with the proven, reliable Twitch.
/facepalm
Some people should stay away anything that allows them to communicate their thoughts to other persons.
As a partner of Own3d.tv I do have to say that after reading Destiny's post I am fully aware of how he feels as I am going through the same problem with being told I'd get paid then hearing absolutely nothing randomly. My payments are backed up 6 months now and lets just say I am missing X amount in K's. I originally was living on the east coast until I had some family related issues and decided to move to the west coast. With no job, I made streaming my primary platform as income until I could find work. My credit cards are backed up a lot right now and still awaiting payment from own3d.tv. I have been rather stressed out (I'm sure people who have bills understand). Thank god I have good credit and am able to hold a lot or I would have gone bankrupt by now.
I am forced to make a very hard call and have decided to move back to the east coast to get my old job back because I haven't been able to find work and with no financel support from my streaming I am out of time. I literally had to make this very hard decision yesterday and now will be leaving on Monday for a good 2000+ mile drive......... So I will be gone from streaming for who knows how long until I get settled again. (Sorry viewers, but I'll be back soon for those who watch)
I just can't seem to understand the issue with own3d.tv.... It is a 50/50 shares so 50% of what you make revenue wise goes to them so they shouldn't have any money issues? It did cause me a huge mess in RL....
I just wish that if Own3d.tv was having issues they would just come straight out and say it! Then I could of prepared for the worse a long time ago.
edit: yes, I know this isn't going to happen. I just wish someone WOULD actually stand up to them and sue for once. A lot of gamers are young kids who are just being taken advantage of by companies and sponsors.
One part that confuses me the most is why Destiny had to or would be penalized for switching to twitch.tv. Without seeing the actual contract, it would seem that Own3d's lack of ability to fulfill their end of the contract would lead to the contract itself becoming null and void. Which, in in the case of Destiny, would mean Own3d lose their right to even seek money.
Of course, without seeing the contract and the rest of the information needed, I can only go with the presumption and cannot be 100% certain.
What strikes me the as the most surprising fact of all of this is just how problematic Own3d seems to be and how little I have heard about it. Esports as a whole does seem to have issues (and drama) when it comes to contracts and finances. But reading through many comments where people speak of their own problems with Own3d, I just find it hard to believe that more of these sort of threads have not come out.
This sort of situation (as well as other situations) really does make me sad because it ultimately hurts and hinders the growth of Esports. How is Esports expected to be taken seriously when we have companies that are suppose to be there for their employees/contractors and end up acting in such an unprofessional manner.
On January 18 2013 13:51 TotalBiscuit wrote: "They stayed professional"
Shut the fuck up. My god this attitude stinks. This is what people THINK is professional, speaking politely and using proper sentences. You know what is actually professional? Fulfilling your goddamn contractual obligations and running your business properly.
Jeez if all it took to be considered professional was politeness then what a world we'd live in. Hint, it'd be shit. Lying is just as easy to do while being polite as it is while being offensive.
Way to rant about a single sentence taken out of context.. that was the only good thing I could say about Own3d, because they did stay polite in the conversation, while Destiny fell back on the standard blackmail and threats. I said something positive and negative about both parties. While everyone else is just pitchforking it up like argh everything's all black and white etc. I wouldn't trust Own3d with my paycheck, but at the same time it's hard to feel sympathy for Destiny. Why everyone else gets all emotionally invested in this I don't know. Just stick with twitch..
what's wrong with you?
IF a person worked for half a year not receiving ANY stable form of payment and you don't feel nothing for him, then obviously something is wrong about you. Maybe you haven't worked before? Or maybe you don't understand his circumstances just because you don't like the guy?
Said this already... imagine not getting a paycheck for 6 months. Yeah. It sucks. Imagine sucking up your savings because you aren't getting a paycheck, and those bills haven't stopped. Yeah. It also sucks.
Regardless of whether or not you like the guy, he did work, so he deserves to be paid.
In defense of the poor guy getting bashed, Destiny is not an employee of Own3d, he's an independent contractor.
And this wasn't 6 months worth of problems, this came to a head in November when he switched to Twitch. There's a lot that is unsaid about what he was doing for three months while apparently not being paid and then deliberately breaking his contract two weeks before its end date.
I think saying it's hard to sympathize with Destiny was a poor choice of words, but he seemed to have as big a problem with transcoding as he did with not being paid. His story is focused more on trashing Own3d than getting paid, which seems like a douche-y thing to do although the missing piece is that he's given up on getting his money.
It was absolutely 6 months worth of problems, or did you just turn a blind eye to half the article?
It is 6 months worth of problems today on January 18, 2013. It was 3 months worth of problems when he ditched Own3d in mid-November. It's still a big problem, but not as big as the pitchfork crowd is saying.
'The last paycheck I received from own3d was marked for July. I don’t believe I will ever be paid for the last 5 months I streamed with them. I’m trying to keep this as formal and non-sensationalist as possible, but it’s hard to imagine the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that I get from even typing that out.'
On January 18 2013 16:05 FXO.Slavik wrote: NaVi got contract with Own3d and it was horrible, in the beginning it seemed fine, but we didnt get paid for a long time;; after leaving navi i asked manager if there was any payment, and he said no only promising
so yeah +1 to all the guys who msged
lold so they are doing it for a loooong time
i wonder is there ANY people who recieve some money for last 6 month?
On January 18 2013 16:14 vVvRuFF wrote: As a partner of Own3d.tv I do have to say that after reading Destiny's post I am fully aware of how he feels as I am going through the same problem with being told I'd get paid then hearing absolutely nothing randomly. My payments are backed up 6 months now and lets just say I am missing X amount in K's. I originally was living on the east coast until I had some family related issues and decided to move to the west coast. With no job, I made streaming my primary platform as income until I could find work. My credit cards are backed up a lot right now and still awaiting payment from own3d.tv. I have been rather stressed out (I'm sure people who have bills understand). Thank god I have good credit and am able to hold a lot or I would have gone bankrupt by now.
I am forced to make a very hard call and have decided to move back to the east coast to get my old job back because I haven't been able to find work and with no financel support from my streaming I am out of time. I literally had to make this very hard decision yesterday and now will be leaving on Monday for a good 2000+ mile drive......... So I will be gone from streaming for who knows how long until I get settled again. (Sorry viewers, but I'll be back soon for those who watch)
I just can't seem to understand the issue with own3d.tv.... It is a 50/50 shares so 50% of what you make revenue wise goes to them so they shouldn't have any money issues? It did cause me a huge mess in RL....
I just wish that if Own3d.tv was having issues they would just come straight out and say it! Then I could of prepared for the worse a long time ago.
Basically the same situation I'm in. I don't think they seem to understand what kind of hell they're actually putting some of us through.
It always pisses me off when I read how crap e-sports related things are at holding their end of the bargain. This is especially stupid for things such as tournament winnings, which I'd argue you should have the money ready beforehand, rather than let the sponsers get away with paying late. I'd imagine streaming sites would be a bit more complicated as there'd be some calculations on exactly how much you earn, but here I'm thinking 1 or 2 months max.
Destiny is one of the biggest d bags in the gaming scene, I wouldn't pay him a penny either. If everyone is aware of this, why doesn't everyone just switch to twitch.tv, or any other sites for streams and boycott own3d all together??
On January 18 2013 16:34 Skoe420 wrote: Destiny is one of the biggest d bags in the gaming scene, I wouldn't pay him a penny either. If everyone is aware of this, why doesn't everyone just switch to twitch.tv, or any other sites for streams and boycott own3d all together??
Does it really matter how much of a D bag someone is? If you sign a contract, and you do the work, then you need to pay the person. It doesn't matter how much of a D bag someone is. Your logic makes absolutely no sense and should get a warning for a dumb post like that.
On January 18 2013 16:34 Skoe420 wrote: Destiny is one of the biggest d bags in the gaming scene, I wouldn't pay him a penny either. If everyone is aware of this, why doesn't everyone just switch to twitch.tv, or any other sites for streams and boycott own3d all together??
Doesn't matter if he's a fucking dbag or the biggest scum alive, a contract's a contract. For the longest time, Destiny was the face of own3d and for them to shaft them like this is pretty pathetic.
On January 18 2013 16:34 Skoe420 wrote: Destiny is one of the biggest d bags in the gaming scene, I wouldn't pay him a penny either. If everyone is aware of this, why doesn't everyone just switch to twitch.tv, or any other sites for streams and boycott own3d all together??
They and many others have signed a fucking contract. While he might be the biggest douchebag, he still has worked for the money that Own3d has promised.
To me it seems like Own3d is financially in a really bad shape. More and more players are coming out with the exact same problem with Own3d, people who are with Own3d right now are moving to another platforms (mostly Twitch) etc.
On January 18 2013 16:34 Skoe420 wrote: Destiny is one of the biggest d bags in the gaming scene, I wouldn't pay him a penny either. If everyone is aware of this, why doesn't everyone just switch to twitch.tv, or any other sites for streams and boycott own3d all together??
He's bringing attention to this issue and putting it out into the open but you're going to go and call him a douchebag when he hasn't gotten the money he's earned and he's supporting a child? Get the fuck out of here.
while i don't like destiny at all, own3d is pretty much fucking him over and if this is really how they do business.. i guess i will actively avoid watching their streams now.
wow, really had no idea that own3d was this shady. Really really disappointing, as this was my go-to stream site about a year and abit ago.
Also why do we hate destiny?? such an intelligent individual and i don't really think he's done anything to the community but bring laughter and awesome plays? is it really just cause he switched to LoL?
On January 18 2013 16:45 SpaceFighting wrote: wow, really had no idea that own3d was this shady. Really really disappointing, as this was my go-to stream site about a year and abit ago.
Also why do we hate destiny?? such an intelligent individual and i don't really think he's done anything to the community but bring laughter and awesome plays? is it really just cause he switched to LoL?
Hm while this sucks for the players I hope this means no more own3D as I hate them as it is, always laggy for me :/. Them not paying the players is a joke as well. Well I expect them to die and rightfully so as it seems a lot of people got ripped from this crappy company.
Whoa, I thought I'm the only one experienced the problem with revenues payments. I'm russian caster, own3d has to pay me ~$130. It's not a big deal, but i had a plans for it. They say I have to sign contract to get my payments... still I hadn't received a word from them since 2012/12/14, it is not even funny. Thanks TS for destroying my doubts, I'll switch to twitch. Nami.
On January 18 2013 16:44 sc14s wrote: while i don't like destiny at all, own3d is pretty much fucking him over and if this is really how they do business.. i guess i will actively avoid watching their streams now.
And it's not just destiny, which I hope most of the community understands that. It's a massive amount of people who don't speak up about it in fear of not getting the money at all!
Like I said before, it's a massive problem for some of us. ( myself included ) Some of do this full time all day everyday with no other source of income. You might argue that we should have some sort of different income, but for some of us that's just not the case. When you sign the contract you enter an agreement for both parties, and for the streamers, we're doing our part, own3d.tv is not and it really sucks, because for me personally my social / financial life is completely ruined with not getting paid. It's a miserable existence right now, and the only thing we're all asking for is what we rightfully worked for and earned.
Bye bye own3d. Hope this is a lesson for twitch. But, I bet people still won't learn the lesson and once in a while another organization or team will pop up doing some sort of scam.
On January 18 2013 16:56 NoGasfOu wrote: Bye bye own3d. Hope this is a lesson for twitch. But, I bet people still won't learn the lesson and once in a while another organization or team will pop up doing some sort of scam.
Oh of course there will be scams. But I don't think twitch is one of those companies.
On January 18 2013 16:52 mHaith wrote: Whoa, I thought I'm the only one experienced the problem with revenues payments. I'm russian caster, own3d has to pay me ~$130. It's not a big deal, but i had a plans for it. They say I have to sign contract to get my payments... still I hadn't received a word from them since 2012/12/14, it is not even funny. Thanks TS for destroying my doubts, I'll switch to twitch. Nami.
Same, I haven't received the contract yet, but I have payments backed up 6 months. Also its quiet a lump sum of cash. Weither or not contracted I will make sure I get payment as documentation is notified on the site and I have many screenshots every month of the progress made.
On January 18 2013 16:56 NoGasfOu wrote: Bye bye own3d. Hope this is a lesson for twitch. But, I bet people still won't learn the lesson and once in a while another organization or team will pop up doing some sort of scam.
I saw this one Reddit post by a Twitch employee, Justin Wong, being retweeted by TheGunRun. I have MUCH better feeling about Twitch overall compared to Own3d for example, how they operate and run their business, i believe they know what they are doing. So I'm not afraid.
Twitch employee here. I've seen the unease that, if competitors are removed from the market, we'll get complacent in development and screw over our streamers. I'd like to allay some of these concerns. The internet landscape is littered with the corpses of companies that stopped innovating once they took the lead, opening the door for hungry competitors to dethrone them. That's not how we operate at Twitch, which has lead to our success and will hopefully carry us further. While I can't share specifics, I assure you we're not resting on our laurels. Our recent VC funding round is being used to greatly increase our existing infrastructure and hire more employees to continue improving Twitch. Work never stops here, and significant advances are in development for all areas of our product. Our technology is an advantage but, given identical QoS, you choose a platform because of the content. Keeping partners happy, listening to their needs, and making sure we're doing everything we can to show them we truly appreciate their choice to use Twitch -- that's how you run a business.
I look at Destiny's move from Twitch to own3D last year as a massive success story for our relationship management team. Destiny cited a "personal financial decision" as his reason, but still felt compelled to write 10 paragraphs telling everyone how much he appreciated everyone at Twitch (we didn't ask him to write anything). Money's money, but when someone who makes the choice to go to a competitor leaves you a heartfelt "thank you" on reddit, I consider it a huge win. We strive to offer deals that are both fair and sustainable. It doesn't do us any good to mistreat our partners because it creates an environment where they resent us and are only with us until a better opportunity comes along. That's completely at odds with our desire to form long-term relationships built on trust and respect. Changing that would be a departure from what has made us the company we are today.
As a final note, despite our competition with own3D, we've always endeavored to keep it respectful. Stuart Saw, a former employee of own3D who is now at Twitch, once told me "there's rivalry, and then there's war." Ultimately, we don't make money from schadenfreude. Twitch is filled with passionate, talented people who truly love what they are doing and believe in the company's vision to create something meaningful and long-lasting. As a fellow start-up, I'd like to believe own3D has similar people.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
I'd say the majority of people (at least 85% in my experience) do not fully grasp or understand the contracts they are signing. On top of that, even a higher percentage (I'd say around 99%) do not have the means to pursue legal action against a company that is breaching their contract.
The one and only thing I ponder still in all of this, is the advertisers buying the space or selling the space on owned paying owned in a timely manner? From the sounds of what I read it may have sounded like a part in the issue was owned couldn't pay out because they hadn't be paid yet. Now if that's largely just because owned is setting up contracts with streamers in a payment window that there is no way they could keep then that's just stupid of them.
One thing I'd encourage anyone getting into esports or even those established in esports...stop allowing any service / tournament / team etc. the ability to make a bunch of bullshit excuses for not paying out when promised. Don't keep it on the down low in 'good faith' that they'll pay you 'eventually'. If anyone ever doesn't pay up on time they should have an amazing reason that just blows your mind to explain why they can't pay on time. I get that it's nothing new but if these organizations are ever going to be held accountable people need to quit giving them so much lee way. You make an agreement you stick to the agreement end of story.
Not actually surprised in the least. There have been several complaints and I haven't seen them mended nor have I ever seen a response from an Own3d representative.
Well, more drama! Sad that even in E-sports there is such corruption. Grabs your pitchforks ladies and gentleman, the wicked shall pay for their sins! (But seriously, this can NOT go unpunished and we have to take action)
On January 18 2013 17:19 NoGasfOu wrote: ^^^ I don't see any Korean streaming on own3d anymore except forgg. He likes to jump back and forth between different sites.
Didn't ProTech just go through a similar situation? I thought he switched to Own3d and then ran back to Twitch. Love or hate Destiny, hopefully this provides some illumination on the situation.
On January 18 2013 16:56 NoGasfOu wrote: Bye bye own3d. Hope this is a lesson for twitch. But, I bet people still won't learn the lesson and once in a while another organization or team will pop up doing some sort of scam.
I saw this one Reddit post by a Twitch employee, Justin Wong, being retweeted by TheGunRun. I have MUCH better feeling about Twitch overall compared to Own3d for example, how they operate and run their business, i believe they know what they are doing. So I'm not afraid.
Twitch employee here. I've seen the unease that, if competitors are removed from the market, we'll get complacent in development and screw over our streamers. I'd like to allay some of these concerns. The internet landscape is littered with the corpses of companies that stopped innovating once they took the lead, opening the door for hungry competitors to dethrone them. That's not how we operate at Twitch, which has lead to our success and will hopefully carry us further. While I can't share specifics, I assure you we're not resting on our laurels. Our recent VC funding round is being used to greatly increase our existing infrastructure and hire more employees to continue improving Twitch. Work never stops here, and significant advances are in development for all areas of our product. Our technology is an advantage but, given identical QoS, you choose a platform because of the content. Keeping partners happy, listening to their needs, and making sure we're doing everything we can to show them we truly appreciate their choice to use Twitch -- that's how you run a business.
I look at Destiny's move from Twitch to own3D last year as a massive success story for our relationship management team. Destiny cited a "personal financial decision" as his reason, but still felt compelled to write 10 paragraphs telling everyone how much he appreciated everyone at Twitch (we didn't ask him to write anything). Money's money, but when someone who makes the choice to go to a competitor leaves you a heartfelt "thank you" on reddit, I consider it a huge win. We strive to offer deals that are both fair and sustainable. It doesn't do us any good to mistreat our partners because it creates an environment where they resent us and are only with us until a better opportunity comes along. That's completely at odds with our desire to form long-term relationships built on trust and respect. Changing that would be a departure from what has made us the company we are today.
As a final note, despite our competition with own3D, we've always endeavored to keep it respectful. Stuart Saw, a former employee of own3D who is now at Twitch, once told me "there's rivalry, and then there's war." Ultimately, we don't make money from schadenfreude. Twitch is filled with passionate, talented people who truly love what they are doing and believe in the company's vision to create something meaningful and long-lasting. As a fellow start-up, I'd like to believe own3D has similar people.
It's good that twitch is going for the long terms because I've been following them since the justintv days to watch restream hockey games. They were a tiny little website and are now dominating the video streaming field..
Ive never been a fan of own3d. Twitch has always in my eyes been a premier streaming website and that wont change. own3d used to be good but i dont even look at it anymore. Unless own3d can resolve this problem quickly then shit will hit the fan!
I never stuck to Own3d. I only watched Own3d for very specific reason e.g. online cups and such. Always felt twitch was the superior streaming site anyway.
But in any case, I hope this prompts Own3d to get their shit together.
As many people have said before, own3d vods works like shit, you have to let the idiotic thing buffer before you can skip in the vods, thats like 1990 technology...
Also, I would be interested to hear what joindota has to say as they're fronting own3d HARD and has done so pretty much from the beginning...
I always said Own3d was a shit website, but some streamers still used it over Twitch because "they pay more"... which seems to have been a big lie. So yeah, why doesn't everyone just leave Own3d immediately and start streaming on twitch? Quality, and at least they keep up their end of their bargain, mostly.
It's cute how when twitch was not giving the players as much money as it seemed like they should because of whatever reasons like ads not playing etc, everyone was bashing how shitty the service twitch offered was. That's all just crap, this has nothing to do with how good either product is.
If a company is this shady or just scamming it's users, it doesn't matter how good the stuff they are offering is. My wishful thinking is it'll all workout in the end, but likely, I'm just hoping that the people using own3d learn a lesson about being careful on the internet. From a legal stand-point of such online business, I'd say there isn't much that can be done.
People who stream on Own3d do it because they actually pay more than twitch, but apparently (a lot?) slower. Tobi uses own3d because it's one of the main sponsors of The Defense. My personal experience as a dota 2 viewer is better with own3d. I cannot tell you how many times a Twitch stream was freezing and lagging like hell in every team fight while own3d had no problem. sucks ass that they don't pay their streamers in time or at all, but as far as stream quality goes, my experience is that they're better than twitch.
On January 18 2013 17:55 Kabras wrote: People who stream on Own3d do it because they actually pay more than twitch, but apparently (a lot?) slower. Tobi uses own3d because it's one of the main sponsors of The Defense. My personal experience as a dota 2 viewer is better with own3d. I cannot tell you how many times a Twitch stream was freezing and lagging like hell in every team fight while own3d had no problem. sucks ass that they don't pay their streamers in time or at all, but as far as stream quality goes, my experience is that they're better than twitch.
Well, other people had different experiences. Lots of people complain that the defense is using own3d because of streaming issues.
On January 18 2013 17:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Is there anyone who can translate this to Korean?
Team sponsored by twitch wants to translate a own3d hate speech to korean.
I am totally sure you just want to be infromative and helpful to the community. No toughts behind the scenes.
¿?¿?¿?
If it was only Destiny's case.... this is not about twitch vs own3d, it's about people who are trying to set up a stream, or whatever, to know what's going on with own3d behind the scenes. Specially people who ARE SIGNING A CONTRACT.
That is really too bad, I can stand dishonest people. I trust Destiny, I am never visiting that site again, I hope streamers are able to leave to another provider.
never really liked destiny's stream but whether hate him or like him no one deserves to be treated like this. I know what it's like to be in a position where you have bills pileing up and you have lots of money owed to you but nothing is being sent, it's a horrible feeling.
Never liked ownedtv. The only thing why I would tune in on it was becasue of Destiny. But actualy I couldnt watch it because blackscreens (chat was telling that my browser is the problem lol...) or the lag. My internet connection is shit i admint (245 kb/s download) but I have no problems watching 720p on Twich and quality is more that OK. Also couldnt whatch the archives. It is a big clutter and its difficult to find what you need.
Destiny is a persone that Owned should have not messed around with. He loves to talk and write. He knows hot to do it and he has a small army of people that folow him. And if what, the news will spread quick.
I hope that this fraud (that is now public) from Owned force them to pay people on time or just leave the business and stop parasitizing esports.
I never liked Own3d, but twitch still cant more than a ~2mbit stream smoothly to my 7mbit down connection (no data transfer suddenly for 5-10+ seconds, stream freezes)
On January 18 2013 18:38 Cyro wrote: I never liked Own3d, but twitch still cant more than a ~2mbit stream smoothly to my 7mbit down connection (no data transfer suddenly for 5-10+ seconds, stream freezes)
It mostly your provider fault, not twitch. I was on 50Mbit, have a lot of freezes and lags, after switching the internet provider (same speed) my watching expirience is perfect.
Kind of unrelated but did we ever find out about the Playhem 'frozen' funds been resolved? I believe Snute or Targa (one of the Norwegian's) was just one of many pros who was owed a couple of hundred Euros. It's one thing when a team goes under but it's pretty sad/worrying to see these horizontal companies (which so many pros rely on for some form of income) not honoring promised remuneration
Corruption and greed are the most appalling aspects of the business world. I do not really like Destiny, but that does not take away the feeling of sympathy that I have for him. This situation is sad to hear about and should not be happening to streamers who basically make a living out of it.
This explains why some people/organizations won't switch to Own3d even though Twitch is worse connection wise (at least from my side). Maybe that even explains why Own3d is better connection wise in the first place. Guess I'll need to hold back my complain about Twitch for a while.
i dont understand the hate against Destiny but i agree on the hate against own3D.tv... they have the worst stream quality and now THIS? if Steven wasnt waiting for his money for about 6 months or so now, i`d suggest to him to sue the shit out of own3D.. if there is a written contract, he will crush thoser F***ers
really hope he gets his money and I really, REALLY hope for more honor in this industry.. there`s enough shit going on in the east...
Lol! By the way the comment you quoted from him is so totally true
From what I know, it's usually not really a good idea to have monopolies in any industry. Hopefully, if own3d goes down (which it should if the allegations are true and they're as unprofessional as they seem to be), there'd maybe be another stream provider who'd step up to at least challenge Twitch a bit to keep them on their toes.
On January 18 2013 19:08 run.at.me wrote: Twitch are stoked right now
Yeah I actually don't know about that. Twitch must be pretty happy with the current market position they have. If anything news like this might scare away investors from the branch as a whole. So long term this might be an inconvenience for them as well. Pure speculation of course.
On January 18 2013 17:10 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Is there anyone who can translate this to Korean?
Team sponsored by twitch wants to translate a own3d hate speech to korean.
I am totally sure you just want to be infromative and helpful to the community. No toughts behind the scenes.
There can always only be one single motivation behind any action! You are either serving your own needs, or completely being altruistic! Never a mix of both!
I'm glad that Destiny decided to go public on this and show what a bunch of assholes (his words) own3d allegedly are. Too bad he has nothing to show for 6+months of streaming.
I dislike this a lot I mean there needs to be 2 company's in the same branch atleast to keep both sharp and it will make them keep trying to improve. When there is 1 with a hugeeee monopoly the quality will go down I am scared
As Husky said. The industry is ran by people who do not take this as a serious job. All and everyone try to grab money where and while they can, if something goes awry it is all just a "game" with no legal consequences. If an E-sports job does not work they go bac to college, over.
If Own3D wont pay video game streamers they shoot themselves in the knee. Thats their only Market.
Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
I believe this was why TSM moved to Twitch as well, correct?
I like that Own3d has much better stream quality than tiwtch imo, but it's all worthless if they're not gonna be paying their streamers. Twitch has always been my favorite anyways, just less laggy overall for some reason.
Who exactly do you imagine you are speaking for? Are you one of those kids that keep spamming his fb statuses about "betraying" SC2? Because those people are beyond ridiculous.
As for O3D, I stopped watching alot of streamers because they used it, because it didn't work. Twitch does everything right that O3D did wrong, and I'm not surprised they're sinking.
Whatever Destiny has done to SCII in the past (and he did a lot) I think this makes up for it. I know what it's like to not get paid on time, and this is to an extreme. As far as I'm concerned, he's done his penance. I hope players can agree to use Twitch or a third service to go ahead and put Own3D out of business.
Day[9], if you're reading, I think it would mean a lot for guys like you and DJWheat to call this out publicly during one of your casts.
Is there any way to get player confirmations that they actually recieve the subscription money from when we subscribe, whether it be Twitch or Own3d? Otherwise I'd want my money back -_-
On January 18 2013 19:36 Jojo131 wrote: I believe this was why TSM moved to Twitch as well, correct?
I like that Own3d has much better stream quality than tiwtch imo, but it's all worthless if they're not gonna be paying their streamers. Twitch has always been my favorite anyways, just less laggy overall for some reason.
I've always found Own3d streams to be much worse quality than your average twitch stream... Half the time it's so laggy you can't watch anything.
These companies are bloody silly and shouldn't offer "contracts" if they don't know what it is, i hope amateurs don't get into business in the future and ruin people's life that have to pay bills.
On January 18 2013 19:45 diplomatten wrote: Whatever Destiny has done to SCII in the past (and he did a lot) I think this makes up for it. I know what it's like to not get paid on time, and this is to an extreme. As far as I'm concerned, he's done his penance. I hope players can agree to use Twitch or a third service to go ahead and put Own3D out of business.
Day[9], if you're reading, I think it would mean a lot for guys like you and DJWheat to call this out publicly during one of your casts.
Wheat should never get involved in this now that he works for Twitch. I think he knows better.
What?! This is insane! I have never been so pissed at anything in regards to esports before! Are you bloody kidding me?! So many players not getting paid for so many months!!!! O3wned needs to get punished hard for this! I sincerely hope that all streamers and viewers are going to boycott this service asap!!
Also could someone please make a place to donate for hiring a laywer to sue the **** of these ******** and *********** on behalf of the players ?!
This is beyond unacceptable! Their service is already inferior to twich for the viewers, but this is nothing compared to the fact that they don't even bloody pay the players! What a bunch of ***** !
ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Some people in this topic I swear. They see a topic saying "Destiny: Own3d not paying their streamers" etc. and their first reaction isn't "That seems serious, let's read the topic to get a better idea of what is happening" but the first thing they come up with is "Who the fuck cares about what Destiny has to say". ( like the first post suggesting we shouldn't go to the destiny site to avoid giving him traffic...) The hate him and his fans are getting is really over the top.
But on topic, with so many people having suffered abuse from Own3d, isn't there a way to file some kind of collective claim or something as a group instead of individual statements that meet once in a while in a TL topic ? You'd think that some kind of alliance would force own3d's hand a bit.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Yeah, for esports sake let's just ignore a whole bunch of professional gamers (some of whom are in financial troubles) not getting paid for months. It'll really help grow esports if we just ignore these problems and just have some fun instead.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Not sure if troll or Own3d-owner...
Esports isnt "FUUUUUN", its not something that u can play with your mates after school; "Hey guys, lets play cowboys and indians, nah we did that yesterday, I want to play Esports!".
"Esports" is trying to be a legit business, where people can make a living out of the entertainment.
In order to do so, theres no place for scumbag non-legit companies such as own3d.
Why shouldnt everyone be enlightened about shady business so we, as consumers of the provided entertainment, can do something about it?
I for one am never going to watch another own3d-stream again, will you do your part?
As a person who has worked for a company which has gone through serious financial difficulties, I must say that the best way to piss off your contractors, staff, and suppliers is to consistently pay them late, and not tell them why.
Seriously, everyone leaves like rats on a sinking ship. If someone works for you, pay them. Simple as that.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Yeah, for esports sake let's just ignore a whole bunch of professional gamers (some of whom are in financial troubles) not getting paid for months. It'll really help grow esports if we just ignore these problems and just have some fun instead.
You keep saying that ( professional ) ... i don't think it means what you think it means !
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Yeah, for esports sake let's just ignore a whole bunch of professional gamers (some of whom are in financial troubles) not getting paid for months. It'll really help grow esports if we just ignore these problems and just have some fun instead.
You keep saying that ( professional ) ... i don't think it means what you think it means !
I don't think you know what you are speaking about.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Yeah, for esports sake let's just ignore a whole bunch of professional gamers (some of whom are in financial troubles) not getting paid for months. It'll really help grow esports if we just ignore these problems and just have some fun instead.
You keep saying that ( professional ) ... i don't think it means what you think it means !
It means someone that does that as their PROFESSION (JOB). I don't think you quite understand what it means. If they are seriously not getting paid (and haven't been getting paid) for doing their JOB, this is very serious.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Yeah, for esports sake let's just ignore a whole bunch of professional gamers (some of whom are in financial troubles) not getting paid for months. It'll really help grow esports if we just ignore these problems and just have some fun instead.
You keep saying that ( professional ) ... i don't think it means what you think it means !
I don't think you know what you are speaking about.
A professional doesn't go out screaming that he didn't get paid to the community, he solves his problem ... in a number of different ways ( use your imagination ) and focuses on growing the community ... not acting like a pussy.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Not sure if troll or Own3d-owner...
Esports isnt "FUUUUUN", its not something that u can play with your mates after school; "Hey guys, lets play cowboys and indians, nah we did that yesterday, I want to play Esports!".
"Esports" is trying to be a legit business, where people can make a living out of the entertainment.
In order to do so, theres no place for scumbag non-legit companies such as own3d.
Why shouldnt everyone be enlightened about shady business so we, as consumers of the provided entertainment, can do something about it?
I for one am never going to watch another own3d-stream again, will you do your part?
So, esports is not fun, but people want to make a living out of entertainment. Also, own3d is a shady business because a few people there seem to be completely clueless about the point of contracts, and then you're throwing EVERYTHING away own3d.tv did for eSports, stop supporting most korean streamers(LG-IM exclusively streams on own3d, mind you) and the occasional foreigner because of that?
You're doing your part. Your part of being destructive for the community. People like you are the reason major companies will most likely NEVER invest into eSports, because once something goes wrong you all pull out and boycott.
I am consistently mind blown how this sort of thing just keeps happening in this industry.
This is not a difficult thing for Own3d. They've got contracts signed. Follow the terms of the contract. If they have financial problems which means they can't then they should be letting people streaming on their platform know. If they're just not following the terms then its entirely their fault for screwing up.
Same goes for tournaments that don't pay out. People are largely not evil and looking to burn your house down if payment is late for a good reason. But if you don't say anything then it looks extremely dodgy.
Honestly its really, really not that hard to work with people rather than against them and communicate a bit. I reckon I could manage it quite easily. -_-
On January 18 2013 20:28 DMaster wrote: A professional doesn't go out screaming that he didn't get paid to the community, he solves his problem ... in a number of different ways ( use your imagination ) and focuses on growing the community ... not acting like a pussy.
This is a foolish, uninformed statement. You can clearly read that he tried solving the problem for months beforehand and was put off and ignored by Own3d. Going public is pretty well a last resort and I doubt Destiny hopes for any personal gain from doing so, instead to inform and bring the issue into the scrutiny of the public eye to ensure they cannot continue to benefit from shady business practices.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Yeah, for esports sake let's just ignore a whole bunch of professional gamers (some of whom are in financial troubles) not getting paid for months. It'll really help grow esports if we just ignore these problems and just have some fun instead.
You keep saying that ( professional ) ... i don't think it means what you think it means !
I don't think you know what you are speaking about.
A professional doesn't go out screaming that he didn't get paid to the community, he solves his problem ... in a number of different ways ( use your imagination ) and focuses on growing the community ... not acting like a pussy.
I'm glad you can formulate well thought out responses that contribute to the thread.
/sarcasm
The point of the thread is to warn other pros and aspiring streams that Own3d is a shady organization with bad business practices.. If you read the article, which clearly you haven't, you would know that.
Im sad to see this kind of things.. But really, Own3d never had a good layout, or stream player.. i like twitch way more.. so its just a good thing imo for Destiny!
Who exactly do you imagine you are speaking for? Are you one of those kids that keep spamming his fb statuses about "betraying" SC2? Because those people are beyond ridiculous.
As for O3D, I stopped watching alot of streamers because they used it, because it didn't work. Twitch does everything right that O3D did wrong, and I'm not surprised they're sinking.
Maybe the multitudes of people who usually go "MAN, FUCK DESTINY" whenever his name is mentioned. I for one have no problem with him.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Not sure if troll or Own3d-owner...
Esports isnt "FUUUUUN", its not something that u can play with your mates after school; "Hey guys, lets play cowboys and indians, nah we did that yesterday, I want to play Esports!".
"Esports" is trying to be a legit business, where people can make a living out of the entertainment.
In order to do so, theres no place for scumbag non-legit companies such as own3d.
Why shouldnt everyone be enlightened about shady business so we, as consumers of the provided entertainment, can do something about it?
I for one am never going to watch another own3d-stream again, will you do your part?
So, esports is not fun, but people want to make a living out of entertainment. Also, own3d is a shady business because a few people there seem to be completely clueless about the point of contracts, and then you're throwing EVERYTHING away own3d.tv did for eSports, stop supporting most korean streamers(LG-IM exclusively streams on own3d, mind you) and the occasional foreigner because of that?
You're doing your part. Your part of being destructive for the community. People like you are the reason major companies will most likely NEVER invest into eSports, because once something goes wrong you all pull out and boycott.
how can we possibly know if own3d did pay any of those people you were talking about? Esports doesnt mean jack unless people can make a living out of it, business first, then the "fun". If workers for any company wouldnt get paid for their work, the system doesnt work.
this moronic, head inside your ass attitude towards companies has to end, its insane to support companies no matter what, companies only want to make a profit, therefore, the way to show a company that you no longer support them, is to take away their profit somehow....
So basically, by not supporting a company that is tricking their employees, im scaring away major companies?
Unless those "MAJOR COMPANIES" youre talking about are shady themselves, I see no reason whatsoever as why they should run away from esports.... youre making absolutely no sense whatsoever.
In fact, the only way to attract "MAJOR COMPANIES" is to sort out the bullshit within esport so people think of esports as a legit business thus a safe investment.
your way of looking at companies as some scared wild animal which we have to approach slowly, carefully with silk-gloves and let them do whatever the hell they wish, makes me so filled with rage that I dont know what to do, im going to go and lift bro, g'day.
On January 18 2013 20:33 Lightspeaker wrote: I am consistently mind blown how this sort of thing just keeps happening in this industry.
This is not a difficult thing for Own3d. They've got contracts signed. Follow the terms of the contract. If they have financial problems which means they can't then they should be letting people streaming on their platform know. If they're just not following the terms then its entirely their fault for screwing up.
Same goes for tournaments that don't pay out. People are largely not evil and looking to burn your house down if payment is late for a good reason. But if you don't say anything then it looks extremely dodgy.
Honestly its really, really not that hard to work with people rather than against them and communicate a bit. I reckon I could manage it quite easily. -_-
It's not because it's difficult for Own3d to follow the contract and pay, it's more likely they're pocketing the money while they can while laughing all the way to the bank with it.
And honestly, you judge each individual post separately, and I found Destiny's one quite well written and logical.
Since I heard of Owned I expected they would own a few people at some point. Would be sad if they were in debts though. US Servers can be quiet bitchy for some outside of NA, so its nice to have an alternative.
Unfortunatelly, we had the same problem. We have left Own3D.TV due to failed promises with advertising fill-rate (ads for Poland and so on). We were waiting for it around one or two months, we've been said several times that they areworking on that, and it's coming on Monday (several times I guess, it was "beeing worked out") etc.
The CPM offered for us haven't really worked, but it doesn't matter anymore. I don't have to say that there are payments pending from May, that we won't see most probably. What we have been told is that we can get the money back if we stream on Own3D again - that will not happen.
Twitch is one of the coolest companies we are in touch at the moment.
It's a bit of a calculated risk on the part of Own3D in that they can get away with breaching contracts. One of the only ways you're ever going to sort this is with a group action but good luck getting everyone to co-operate on that.
Shame, really. Sounds like a company that started off well but got shittier over time. Will avoid.
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
On January 18 2013 21:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: Unfortunatelly, we had the same problem. We have left Own3D.TV due to failed promises with advertising fill-rate (ads for Poland and so on). We were waiting for it around one or two months, we've been said several times that they areworking on that, and it's coming on Monday (several times I guess, it was "beeing worked out") etc.
The CPM offered for us haven't really worked, but it doesn't matter anymore. I don't have to say that there are payments pending from May, that we won't see most probably. What we have been told is that we can get the money back if we stream on Own3D again - that will not happen.
Twitch is one of the coolest companies we are in touch at the moment.
Never thought I would see the day when MoW complained about an organization's broken promises, hah.
The cat is out of the bag then? lol Hopefully we get to see own3d make a public statement that addresses these issues ...then again, the damage has already been done, this *could* turn away future potential streamers I guess
On January 18 2013 21:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: Unfortunatelly, we had the same problem. We have left Own3D.TV due to failed promises with advertising fill-rate (ads for Poland and so on). We were waiting for it around one or two months, we've been said several times that they areworking on that, and it's coming on Monday (several times I guess, it was "beeing worked out") etc.
The CPM offered for us haven't really worked, but it doesn't matter anymore. I don't have to say that there are payments pending from May, that we won't see most probably. What we have been told is that we can get the money back if we stream on Own3D again - that will not happen.
Twitch is one of the coolest companies we are in touch at the moment.
Never thought I would see the day when MoW complained about an organization's broken promises, hah.
So it's okay when people complain on MoW, but MoW can't complain on anything - got it, Sir.
I am still pretty sure that Own3D will take care of their business and will develop their product. Best of luck in that.
On January 18 2013 20:20 ControlMonkey wrote: As a person who has worked for a company which has gone through serious financial difficulties, I must say that the best way to piss off your contractors, staff, and suppliers is to consistently pay them late, and not tell them why.
Seriously, everyone leaves like rats on a sinking ship. If someone works for you, pay them. Simple as that.
And if you cannot pay them for whatever reason, communicate! Tell them, be honest with people, most people will understand as long as you're honest with them.
On January 18 2013 21:35 Nisyax wrote: Does he really need to go public every goddamn time, he should be able to handle this on his own.
If anything I wish people didn't wait this long to go public tbh. It's redicilous imo that so many entities in e-sports can get away with paying late/not at all in the safety of it being very unlikely that people in the industry can sue. It being standard practice from some organisations to pay tournament winnings years later... Redicilous
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
Own3d not paying the streamers directly concerns SC2
Own3d never streamed well for me so I never understood why people used that instead of Twitch, which was not only a better service, but actively involved in the community.
On January 18 2013 21:46 Dr.Sin wrote: Own3d never streamed well for me so I never understood why people used that instead of Twitch, which was not only a better service, but actively involved in the community.
They offered more $, but then never paid up. Wonder how they managed to offer more $ eh
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
Tell me why own3D doesn't have any relation to SC2 ? It's not only about Destiny financial problems but also how own3D work with streamer and SC2 community is a part of it. Don't read thread as a no brainer, think it over dude
Reading the skype exchanges, it's obvious that own3d is using the usual scamming method of "it'll be done tomorrow". every time Destiny is asking, he's being answered that they were busy but it's done today or tomorrow, basically own3d representative is acting the same way as a Nigerian scammer, classy. Now own3d needs a lawyer which is obviously a lie, as if own3d can't pay his streamers, own3d can't pay a lawyer either. It's just, again, a delaying tactic "sorry we can't pay, we're waiting that our fantasy lawyer to work on this". Usually the exit door for scammers is that after months and months, Destiny will get angry, and own3d will reply "If it's your way to do things, I won't pay" or "You breached the contract, I won't pay", and they'll expect their client to no go in court because it's inconvenient. Basically own3d is showing all the signs of being a scam, in both their way of doing "business" and in their way of handling their clients. If they can't pay a guy like Destiny who can give them a lot of bad press, I doubt they can pay anyone.
I really hope someone will warn the korean teams, if they scam Prime I'll be very very angry.
Who exactly do you imagine you are speaking for? Are you one of those kids that keep spamming his fb statuses about "betraying" SC2? Because those people are beyond ridiculous.
As for O3D, I stopped watching alot of streamers because they used it, because it didn't work. Twitch does everything right that O3D did wrong, and I'm not surprised they're sinking.
Maybe the multitudes of people who usually go "MAN, FUCK DESTINY" whenever his name is mentioned. I for one have no problem with him.
My question was, do those people qualify as "around here"? Surely retardation of that magnitude cannot be the majority?
Sad to see but Own3d look like a bunch of crooks if they are not paying out. Seems like they have screwed over everyone. Has anyone actually recieved full payment forom these guys or is it just some folks?
On January 18 2013 11:06 FollowKronborg wrote: Add it to the list of reasons why streamers should use twitch and not pwned
Although ive heard that twitch doesn't deliver but in a different way. DeMuslim was complaining he was getting like 1 dollar for 8 hours of streaming on twitch orso. So, he was guessing why it was so low : Does addblock at viewers side affect income? or is it a twitch-problem? or is he doing something wrong?
Im guessing huskystarcraft is right. In every business that is extremely new, it's like the wildwildwest. Just when the internet hyped on wallstreet, there was a similar wildwildwest. Millions for a company where just 2 people were working is, really really wierd. Well just have to patient until "new business" grows up
On January 18 2013 11:06 FollowKronborg wrote: Add it to the list of reasons why streamers should use twitch and not pwned
Although ive heard that twitch doesn't deliver but in a different way. DeMuslim was complaining he was getting like 1 dollar for 8 hours of streaming on twitch orso. So, he was guessing why it was so low : Does addblock at viewers side affect income? or is it a twitch-problem? or is he doing something wrong?
Im guessing huskystarcraft is right. In every business that is extremely new, it's like the wildwildwest. Just when the internet hyped on wallstreet, there was a similar wildwildwest. Millions for a company where just 2 people were working is, really really wierd. Well just have to patient until "new business" grows up
Still like twitch tho
Yes adblock does affect streamers (which is why I never adblock streamers), but $1 for 8 hours makes absolutely no sense given the number of peopel watching Demuslim's stream.
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
Tell me why own3D doesn't have any relation to SC2 ? It's not only about Destiny financial problems but also how own3D work with streamer and SC2 community is a part of it. Don't read thread as a no brainer, think it over dude
As i said in my first post :
but then i read the other quotes
This is sc2 related with the other quotes, this wouldn't be the case if it was only destiny's issue. Don't be a no brainer, read the whole things you quote/comment.
On January 18 2013 11:06 FollowKronborg wrote: Add it to the list of reasons why streamers should use twitch and not pwned
Although ive heard that twitch doesn't deliver but in a different way. DeMuslim was complaining he was getting like 1 dollar for 8 hours of streaming on twitch orso. So, he was guessing why it was so low : Does addblock at viewers side affect income? or is it a twitch-problem? or is he doing something wrong?
Im guessing huskystarcraft is right. In every business that is extremely new, it's like the wildwildwest. Just when the internet hyped on wallstreet, there was a similar wildwildwest. Millions for a company where just 2 people were working is, really really wierd. Well just have to patient until "new business" grows up
Still like twitch tho
Yes adblock does affect streamers (which is why I never adblock streamers), but $1 for 8 hours makes absolutely no sense given the number of peopel watching Demuslim's stream.
It are just growing up probs i guess. All the viewers are satisfied, now, the streamers and the company, and it has a nice future
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
I don't like the guy, and i don't watch his stream, but what you are saying is not right.
Own3d doesn't pay their streamers. Several SC2 pro players who use or used own3d and had confirmed this in this very thread. So yeah, it's not about "Destiny" but so any SC2 people can be aware of the situation aswell.
On January 18 2013 11:06 FollowKronborg wrote: Add it to the list of reasons why streamers should use twitch and not pwned
Although ive heard that twitch doesn't deliver but in a different way. DeMuslim was complaining he was getting like 1 dollar for 8 hours of streaming on twitch orso. So, he was guessing why it was so low : Does addblock at viewers side affect income? or is it a twitch-problem? or is he doing something wrong?
Im guessing huskystarcraft is right. In every business that is extremely new, it's like the wildwildwest. Just when the internet hyped on wallstreet, there was a similar wildwildwest. Millions for a company where just 2 people were working is, really really wierd. Well just have to patient until "new business" grows up
Still like twitch tho
Yes adblock does affect streamers (which is why I never adblock streamers), but $1 for 8 hours makes absolutely no sense given the number of peopel watching Demuslim's stream.
It's also because ads aren't worth shit in january. I recall KingKongor constantly having 2000-2500viewers of the course of 6 hours and the day after he complained that he only earned 6$ that day. So yeah, ads are worthless in january.
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
Tell me why own3D doesn't have any relation to SC2 ? It's not only about Destiny financial problems but also how own3D work with streamer and SC2 community is a part of it. Don't read thread as a no brainer, think it over dude
This is sc2 related with the other quotes, this wouldn't be the case if it was only destiny's issue. Don't be a no brainer, read the whole things you quote/comment.
While I agree that Destiny as a person isn't SC2 related in general, you can't seriously argue that a very popular streaming service essentially being a scam isn't related to this community. Streams are basically the reason this game is popular, the reason that we can watch better or entertaining players, and the way this market makes money. If anything, this post serves as a general warning to anyone trying to make any money whatsoever off of streaming, and even small streamers who may not want to stream now on Own3d based on principle.
What I'm trying to say is that this isn't a post about Destiny, it's a post about a popular SC2 streaming service written by Destiny, who used to be a popular SC2 celebrity which makes it even more relevant.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Not sure if troll or Own3d-owner...
Esports isnt "FUUUUUN", its not something that u can play with your mates after school; "Hey guys, lets play cowboys and indians, nah we did that yesterday, I want to play Esports!".
"Esports" is trying to be a legit business, where people can make a living out of the entertainment.
In order to do so, theres no place for scumbag non-legit companies such as own3d.
Why shouldnt everyone be enlightened about shady business so we, as consumers of the provided entertainment, can do something about it?
I for one am never going to watch another own3d-stream again, will you do your part?
So, esports is not fun, but people want to make a living out of entertainment. Also, own3d is a shady business because a few people there seem to be completely clueless about the point of contracts, and then you're throwing EVERYTHING away own3d.tv did for eSports, stop supporting most korean streamers(LG-IM exclusively streams on own3d, mind you) and the occasional foreigner because of that?
You're doing your part. Your part of being destructive for the community. People like you are the reason major companies will most likely NEVER invest into eSports, because once something goes wrong you all pull out and boycott.
how can we possibly know if own3d did pay any of those people you were talking about? Esports doesnt mean jack unless people can make a living out of it, business first, then the "fun". If workers for any company wouldnt get paid for their work, the system doesnt work.
this moronic, head inside your ass attitude towards companies has to end, its insane to support companies no matter what, companies only want to make a profit, therefore, the way to show a company that you no longer support them, is to take away their profit somehow....
So basically, by not supporting a company that is tricking their employees, im scaring away major companies?
Unless those "MAJOR COMPANIES" youre talking about are shady themselves, I see no reason whatsoever as why they should run away from esports.... youre making absolutely no sense whatsoever.
In fact, the only way to attract "MAJOR COMPANIES" is to sort out the bullshit within esport so people think of esports as a legit business thus a safe investment.
your way of looking at companies as some scared wild animal which we have to approach slowly, carefully with silk-gloves and let them do whatever the hell they wish, makes me so filled with rage that I dont know what to do, im going to go and lift bro, g'day.
So you want eSports to be a money-run business that is not about the game, passion and players behind all of it? You want money to rule everything? eSports as a big business where money's first all the time? eSports always did fine and always will do fine, whether major companies are in it or not. Steelseries is in for 10 years now and they're not planning to go. eSports is still fine even if there are no million-dollar contracts, hell even if there are no contracts at all. eSports isn't about the fucking money. I'm not scared of major companies. I'm scared of people like you running eSports, caring only about how much money they can take out of it.
Although I see eSports as something about passion for the game, I know that there has to be a certain amount of money to sustain it. But as a small business there will always be shady stuff like that. You can't stop that, sadly. But what we as a community have to do is try to SOLVE this together with those companies. Not by shitstorming and boycotting them to death. Why would anybody have motivation to start and try to make money with eSports if they're losing everything when some guy fucks up? Do you even know whether that guy Destiny talked to said the truth? Maybe own3d arranged everything but that guy fucked up. Do you know all the details? No. So what you're doing is assuming that own3d is literally a mafia-like organisation that only tries to fuck over players. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but one thing I can tell you: With your attitude we're never going to find out the truth.
You're saying you want eSports to be business first and then fun. Well, you're actually working against that with your attitude. First of all: There is no entertainment in "Business first". And if you want business out of entertainment, you gotta put the fucking entertainment first. Also, business is about shady stuff aaall the fucking time. All the major companies out there do shady business on a daily basis and thats the reason for their money they earn. Money is not made with being a charity run. Hell, even the small companies and things around the small eSports business are shady. There's not a single entity in this community that is completely transparent. I'm not defending it and saying it is simply okay to hide everything and damage players. Thats not what I mean, but companies need to be like that in certain areas; however if it's to a harmful agree (and if the experience Destiny made happens on a regular basis, then it IS harmful), then we need to CHANGE things. But not completely ABANDON it.
Your rage against someone doing wrong things fills you with such blind ignorance that you don't see that the solution is NOT, and I repeat myself but it is important, NOT to boycott those people and take them out of business. The solution is to WORK TOGETHER with them to change the way they work and make it a profitable business for everyone. If they refuse to do that, well THEN boycott them and take them out. Because THAT is harmful to the community, to eSports in general.
Also, just a sidenote: Destiny is not making money with eSports, he is making money with streaming in general. He attracts eSports viewers as well but right now he's just practicing LoL but is not really going competetive(please correct me if I'm wrong, didn't follow Destiny for a long time).
Another edit: To sum it up. My opinion is simply to work together with them first. If they refuse to coorperate well then they deserve all the shit they get. But if they change the way they do business well then good for them and for us.
Korea is full of shady business(Just take a look at the past troubles and FXOBoss's blog about making business in Korea) and nobody is boycotting them, too. Why the hypocrisy?
On January 18 2013 21:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: Unfortunatelly, we had the same problem. We have left Own3D.TV due to failed promises with advertising fill-rate (ads for Poland and so on). We were waiting for it around one or two months, we've been said several times that they areworking on that, and it's coming on Monday (several times I guess, it was "beeing worked out") etc.
The CPM offered for us haven't really worked, but it doesn't matter anymore. I don't have to say that there are payments pending from May, that we won't see most probably. What we have been told is that we can get the money back if we stream on Own3D again - that will not happen.
Twitch is one of the coolest companies we are in touch at the moment.
Never thought I would see the day when MoW complained about an organization's broken promises, hah.
So it's okay when people complain on MoW, but MoW can't complain on anything - got it, Sir.
I am still pretty sure that Own3D will take care of their business and will develop their product. Best of luck in that.
Just so we're clear, you're fully in your right to post what you did and it's good that you did. Yeah a lot of people are going to feel a crushing sense of irony, but it's good to weigh in more personal experiences.
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
This affects everyone who streams on Own3d, including SC2 pro's.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Not sure if troll or Own3d-owner...
Esports isnt "FUUUUUN", its not something that u can play with your mates after school; "Hey guys, lets play cowboys and indians, nah we did that yesterday, I want to play Esports!".
"Esports" is trying to be a legit business, where people can make a living out of the entertainment.
In order to do so, theres no place for scumbag non-legit companies such as own3d.
Why shouldnt everyone be enlightened about shady business so we, as consumers of the provided entertainment, can do something about it?
I for one am never going to watch another own3d-stream again, will you do your part?
So, esports is not fun, but people want to make a living out of entertainment. Also, own3d is a shady business because a few people there seem to be completely clueless about the point of contracts, and then you're throwing EVERYTHING away own3d.tv did for eSports, stop supporting most korean streamers(LG-IM exclusively streams on own3d, mind you) and the occasional foreigner because of that?
You're doing your part. Your part of being destructive for the community. People like you are the reason major companies will most likely NEVER invest into eSports, because once something goes wrong you all pull out and boycott.
how can we possibly know if own3d did pay any of those people you were talking about? Esports doesnt mean jack unless people can make a living out of it, business first, then the "fun". If workers for any company wouldnt get paid for their work, the system doesnt work.
this moronic, head inside your ass attitude towards companies has to end, its insane to support companies no matter what, companies only want to make a profit, therefore, the way to show a company that you no longer support them, is to take away their profit somehow....
So basically, by not supporting a company that is tricking their employees, im scaring away major companies?
Unless those "MAJOR COMPANIES" youre talking about are shady themselves, I see no reason whatsoever as why they should run away from esports.... youre making absolutely no sense whatsoever.
In fact, the only way to attract "MAJOR COMPANIES" is to sort out the bullshit within esport so people think of esports as a legit business thus a safe investment.
your way of looking at companies as some scared wild animal which we have to approach slowly, carefully with silk-gloves and let them do whatever the hell they wish, makes me so filled with rage that I dont know what to do, im going to go and lift bro, g'day.
So you want eSports to be a money-run business that is not about the game, passion and players behind all of it? You want money to rule everything? eSports as a big business where money's first all the time? eSports always did fine and always will do fine, whether major companies are in it or not. Steelseries is in for 10 years now and they're not planning to go. eSports is still fine even if there are no million-dollar contracts, hell even if there are no contracts at all. eSports isn't about the fucking money. I'm not scared of major companies. I'm scared of people like you running eSports, caring only about how much money they can take out of it.
Although I see eSports as something about passion for the game, I know that there has to be a certain amount of money to sustain it. But as a small business there will always be shady stuff like that. You can't stop that, sadly. But what we as a community have to do is try to SOLVE this together with those companies. Not by shitstorming and boycotting them to death. Why would anybody have motivation to start and try to make money with eSports if they're losing everything when some guy fucks up? Do you even know whether that guy Destiny talked to said the truth? Maybe own3d arranged everything but that guy fucked up. Do you know all the details? No. So what you're doing is assuming that own3d is literally a mafia-like organisation that only tries to fuck over players. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but one thing I can tell you: With your attitude we're never going to find out the truth.
You're saying you want eSports to be business first and then fun. Well, you're actually working against that with your attitude. First of all: There is no entertainment in "Business first". And if you want business out of entertainment, you gotta put the fucking entertainment first. Also, business is about shady stuff aaall the fucking time. All the major companies out there do shady business on a daily basis and thats the reason for their money they earn. Money is not made with being a charity run. Hell, even the small companies and things around the small eSports business are shady. There's not a single entity in this community that is completely transparent. I'm not defending it and saying it is simply okay to hide everything and damage players. Thats not what I mean, but companies need to be like that in certain areas; however if it's to a harmful agree (and if the experience Destiny made happens on a regular basis, then it IS harmful), then we need to CHANGE things. But not completely ABANDON it.
Your rage against someone doing wrong things fills you with such blind ignorance that you don't see that the solution is NOT, and I repeat myself but it is important, NOT to boycott those people and take them out of business. The solution is to WORK TOGETHER with them to change the way they work and make it a profitable business for everyone. If they refuse to do that, well THEN boycott them and take them out. Because THAT is harmful to the community, to eSports in general.
Also, just a sidenote: Destiny is not making money with eSports, he is making money with streaming in general. He attracts eSports viewers as well but right now he's just practicing LoL but is not really going competetive(please correct me if I'm wrong, didn't follow Destiny for a long time).
Another edit: To sum it up. My opinion is simply to work together with them first. If they refuse to coorperate well then they deserve all the shit they get. But if they change the way they do business well then good for them and for us.
Korea is full of shady business and nobody is boycotting them, too. Why the hypocrisy?
You seem to think Fun and Major Business led money cannot exist together.
With good fundings from sponsors, more money can go into the scene, more tournaments, more players, better training facilities, more streaming etc Sure, without the money, there can be players, but can there be players that needs to make a living out of it? Several players have switched out because the stream doesn't provide what they were expected to get. How is it wrong that they should switch out and leaving a warning for the rest?
A shady business has already discouraged a pro from streaming in the OP. IF the game has the popularity, there will always be competition rising up.
Just look at sports like badminton, a multi billions industry in China, right now with much better equipments and trainings leading to much more competitive, higher skilled player providing more fun games to watch.
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Its a company based out of Austria and lawyers are not cheap.
If you are a big time independent player with a contract like his. or you have a team......its a very good idea to have a lawyer just for shit like this. I know its eSports and them eSports dollars aren't always the most reliable, but to not get paid for nearly 6 months would definately warrant a lawsuit even with the cheapest lawyers.
eSports isn't nearly as big enough to have lawyers on retainers.... it's loads of money.
[/QUOTE] eSports isn't about the fucking money [/QUOTE].
Lol...wut?
people playing a game in order to sustain their whole living, looking for sponsors, wearing shirts full of company logos, trying to attract viewerships, streaming their games/practice sessions....
eports is about the money. and how it is. but that doesnt mean there is no passion and ideology behind it. but money rules the world and you know it.
[/QUOTE] You're saying you want eSports to be business first and then fun. Well, you're actually working against that with your attitude. First of all: There is no entertainment in "Business first" [/QUOTE]
every sport on a competitive level is about BUSINESS first. you think it is "fun" to play in the NBA,NFL, NHL knowing that every major fuck up or injury may end your career?
At the top of every competitiv area, be it chess or music or sport or dancing there IS business.and competition. and high risk. and very little fun. and.....of....course.....MONEY!
and whether there is entertainement in business first...should be decided by the consumers....if theres none for you, im sorry....
This is a shame, if we want as a community to gain more mainstream success and recognition for our legitimacy we can't get keep doing these things to eachother. People need to one do their homework, and two not just work to gain moeny but to grow the scene.
All the streamers that I care to watch are on Twitch. All the tournaments that I care to watch are on Twitch. When I want to watch a stream, my immediate reaction is to go to Twitch. I honestly thought most people stopped their streaming on own3d last year with how much ground Twitch was gaining.
Oleg sounds like he's just a medium - he doesn't really know anything and he just conveys the information from the person higher than him to his clients. Just the fact that Destiny was forced to use Skype rather than phone just shows how separated Oleg wanted to be from Destiny (it's just easier to bullshit through text than through verbal messages).
I've always had stability issues whenever I tried to watch own3d in 2011 and early 2012, but it's always been subpar to Twitch. This bad publicity will only hurt them, which is good for Twitch. Hopefully own3d streamers that are getting bullied like this will make the switch after their contacts are done (if they have contracts).
Destiny is a scumbag. If anyone else were to be the main face of this I would consider supporting. Destiny is self-centered and finds it fun to do these kinds of things. He has a job in this business not because he is good, but because people watch his stuff because its controversial. Please, stop watching and supporting this esports villain.
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Its a company based out of Austria and lawyers are not cheap.
If you are a big time independent player with a contract like his. or you have a team......its a very good idea to have a lawyer just for shit like this. I know its eSports and them eSports dollars aren't always the most reliable, but to not get paid for nearly 6 months would definately warrant a lawsuit even with the cheapest lawyers.
eSports isn't nearly as big enough to have lawyers on retainers.... it's loads of money.
The hell it isn't. I make 45k a year and have a lawyer on retainer. Its called "The Ex-Wife". If I can afford it a pro or a pro team can afford it to handle the situation if they really wanted to go after them. At the very least they could put these crooks out of business. Stop others from being ripped off. I guess thats the moral high ground and might effect someones macro though.
These are very serious allegations. Happy to see this kind of issues being on the spotlight.
Teamliquid is very important because it gives voice to the community in these situations.
Confirming this is true, I will not ever again visit Own3d nor will I watch, stream or mention this brand to anyone who is within my circle of friends. Well, the part of not fulfilling with contracts and all the lying will be mentioned as well. This seems just too bad to be true.
This character, Oleg Kogut, seems to be a criminal. It is this kind of people that don't matter to our society. If he was to be killed or dead, I guess not many people would miss him and even some would be probably happy with it. I am sorry if I seem to hard on this character, but for me when you give your word, it is whole different level.. you break it, you are as good as dead (unless you have a strong motive to fail with your obligations, I do know that sometimes things don't go the way we planned.. but this trail of lies makes me really mad).
Best of luck for the people who had this unlucky experience! Keep it strong! Cheers!
On the Type Gaming side, we did get our payments but indeed after a while. Still, overall Own3D staff was overall quite helpful especially regarding technical issues.
From what I've gathered, the payments are not really in their hands, I was working in Dubai on similar deals and here's how it panned out every-time: Viewers see Adverts(Ads) on Streamer -> Agency (Own3D for example) collects all the statistics + Ads provider collects all the statistics -> Agency sends data to Ads Provider -> Ads Provider checks the data against its own Database -> *if* there are no issue, Ads Provider pays the Agency (It takes a long time) -> Agency pays Streamer
It's not as straight forward as it looks and I personally think we should try to find a way to support initiatives like Own3D and TwitchTV, they really are pushing the industry in a new direction which is micro-advertizing, without them we'd have seen a lot of players go out of eSports already. None-the-less, there should be more transparency, but we all know how lawyers are in terms of Corporate Image so do we even want these guys to take the risk ?
Clearly own3d is having major financial problems if they basically haven't paid any streamers for six months. Better for streamers to get out now before the ship has sunk completely.
EDIT: I stand corrected on original statement, however main point of my argument remains.
Sorry to hear that this is an ongoing problem. Perhaps you professional gamers need some serious legal backing moving forward, I don't think these contracts are iron clad, at all.
Would love to speak more on the issue if anyone is interested.
On January 18 2013 21:42 HornyHerring wrote: Let the witchhunt begin.
*facepalm*
This really needs to stop. People throw the term "witchhunt" around far too often inappropriately on here. Witchhunting is when people are digging around to undermine others because of their point of view under the pretext of searching for illicit activity. It is when the search for wrongdoing is ABUSED. It ISN'T genuinely looking into illicit activity or going after someone who has actually done something.
When people were complaining about Stephano's offensive "jokes"? That wasn't witchhunting because he'd actually done something that didn't even need searching to find out about. Nor were the various Destiny things this past year, he'd actually done them and they turned up. Going back to Brood War, the Match Fixing Scandal being found out was the result of digging around; but that wasn't a witchhunt against sAviOr or any of the others involved, it was a genuine investigation into suspicions. Regardless of what you think of any of them or their outcomes none of these things were "witchhunting" because in every case people were punished only because they'd DONE stuff. Not just "convicted" based on an accusation.
This isn't a witchhunt. Own3d has done something blatantly wrong without explanation. Its not people digging into their business practices trying to make Own3d look bad, they've done that perfectly well by themselves.
Still think biggest prob of twith and owned is the ads. They should be ingame, not popup. They should easily embed this the the stream itself. no addblock, no irritating popups for the viewer. its a big win for everybody.
On January 18 2013 23:26 1handsomE wrote: Destiny is a scumbag. If anyone else were to be the main face of this I would consider supporting. Destiny is self-centered and finds it fun to do these kinds of things. He has a job in this business not because he is good, but because people watch his stuff because its controversial. Please, stop watching and supporting this esports villain.
Does it even matter WHO is the "face" of all of this? It concerns many involved with Own3d, from Starcraft II players to LoL and Dota 2 players.
Just read the damn thread and you'll see how many, most likely familiar people for you too, are or has been involved with the same shit own3d has done.
On January 18 2013 23:26 1handsomE wrote: Destiny is a scumbag. If anyone else were to be the main face of this I would consider supporting. Destiny is self-centered and finds it fun to do these kinds of things. He has a job in this business not because he is good, but because people watch his stuff because its controversial. Please, stop watching and supporting this esports villain.
User was warned for this post
I'm sure if Destiny wasn't the main "face" of this, you would still complain regardless because of his involvement.
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
way to not be man enough to stand up for your own words... we all know what you meant, Destiny is still a name connected with sc2, and on top of other things, this is mostly important for sc2players who use own3d.
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
Sorry to hear that this is an ongoing problem. Perhaps you professional gamers need some serious legal backing moving forward, I don't think these contracts are iron clad, at all.
Would love to speak more on the issue if anyone is interested.
Good Luck, Destiny.
You can break the contract when the other party isn't deliverying on the terms and you advise them of this. Destiny didn't do anything wrong.
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
way to not be man enough to stand up for your own words... we all know what you meant, Destiny is still a name connected with sc2, and on top of other things, this is mostly important for sc2players who use own3d.
Since when did not caring about someone become disliking someone?
On January 18 2013 23:26 1handsomE wrote: Destiny is a scumbag. If anyone else were to be the main face of this I would consider supporting. Destiny is self-centered and finds it fun to do these kinds of things. He has a job in this business not because he is good, but because people watch his stuff because its controversial. Please, stop watching and supporting this esports villain.
User was warned for this post
I cannot believe such ignorance still exists on these boards. This man was supposed to be temporarily banned, not just warned.
First of all, who Destiny is has NOTHING to do with the problem at hand, even though I do not agree with your views on Destiny and think they are all blind hate. He has a job not because he's good at the game? Why does that matter? Streaming is entertainment, whether you provide that with skill or other ways is completely irrelevant. Destiny has also gone from 1300 Elo to 1900 in the span of 2 months, which is a considerable improvement that anyone should be proud of. Whether or not he has the skill to compete with the pros remains to be seen, but - again, it does't matter. There are plenty streamers who get ridiculous viewer counts and are helping ''e-sports'' without competing (wingsofdeathx comes to mind, consistently gets 15k-20k viewers)
Also, why the hell are you even calling Destiny a villain? Has he done anything (apart from acting like a dick and not caring what little men think) to deserve being called a villain? Has he stolen anybody's money? Has he done selfish things to hurt the industry for his own gains? Not feeling pity for Destiny is fine, but not caring about this subject simply means you care more about your own opinion that Destiny is a scumbag and that he should be hated more than you care about E-sports. You won't support support a legitimate claim and problem just because somebody you don't like is the one who brought it to light? People like you are the reason e-Sports cannot advance to higher levels.
I apologize for this rant that makes me look like a fan boy. I was simply thrown off guard by the ignorance and close mindedness.
On January 18 2013 23:31 TypeLex wrote: On the Type Gaming side, we did get our payments but indeed after a while. Still, overall Own3D staff was overall quite helpful especially regarding technical issues.
From what I've gathered, the payments are not really in their hands, I was working in Dubai on similar deals and here's how it panned out every-time: Viewers see Adverts(Ads) on Streamer -> Agency (Own3D for example) collects all the statistics + Ads provider collects all the statistics -> Agency sends data to Ads Provider -> Ads Provider checks the data against its own Database -> *if* there are no issue, Ads Provider pays the Agency (It takes a long time) -> Agency pays Streamer
It's not as straight forward as it looks and I personally think we should try to find a way to support initiatives like Own3D and TwitchTV, they really are pushing the industry in a new direction which is micro-advertizing, without them we'd have seen a lot of players go out of eSports already. None-the-less, there should be more transparency, but we all know how lawyers are in terms of Corporate Image so do we even want these guys to take the risk ?
I understand what they are doing, and think it's great, but as an individual, I can't back anything they do if they don't legally fulfill their contracts. If it was just a minor discrepancy with one player, it'd be a different story. But to hear all of these professional gamers talk about how they haven't been paid, no way is there going to be a positive outcome of this for Own3D. There's a certain level of professional courtesy that is expected from anyone and everyone when going into a business transaction, and Own3D obviously hasn't lived up to theirs.
It's great what they've provided for eSports, however at the cost of 6 months worth of backed up payments? No way would I stay at my job for 6 months if they were telling me that I'd be getting paid in 2 weeks for what I earned 6 months ago, with no mention of the other 5 months or fixes to the problems I have just doing my job. I'd be more than happy to quit that company and take my skill set to their rival company across the street (TwitchTV) and resume my career where they actually pay their employees.
Also, why the hell are you even calling Destiny a villain? Has he done anything (apart from acting like a dick and not caring what little men think) to deserve being called a villain?
Is that not reason enough to be considered a villain? If you don't like someone's personality you aren't exactly going to be praising them whenever they make headlines.
On January 18 2013 23:31 TypeLex wrote: On the Type Gaming side, we did get our payments but indeed after a while. Still, overall Own3D staff was overall quite helpful especially regarding technical issues.
From what I've gathered, the payments are not really in their hands, I was working in Dubai on similar deals and here's how it panned out every-time: Viewers see Adverts(Ads) on Streamer -> Agency (Own3D for example) collects all the statistics + Ads provider collects all the statistics -> Agency sends data to Ads Provider -> Ads Provider checks the data against its own Database -> *if* there are no issue, Ads Provider pays the Agency (It takes a long time) -> Agency pays Streamer
It's not as straight forward as it looks and I personally think we should try to find a way to support initiatives like Own3D and TwitchTV, they really are pushing the industry in a new direction which is micro-advertizing, without them we'd have seen a lot of players go out of eSports already. None-the-less, there should be more transparency, but we all know how lawyers are in terms of Corporate Image so do we even want these guys to take the risk ?
Well, If the decision is not on Own3d, they should at least be honest with the people who didn't get paid for half a year. That's the least someone could expect. Not getting paid for your work is horrible and demands the truth, not some fishy delaying tactcis.
Also: If someone doesn't get paid for half a year and then decides to leave the contract because it's hurting his financial existence gets threatened with lawayers then there is something seriously wrong. The only one who should be afraid of lawayers in this case is Own3d. It's sad that the people who are affected lack the money to hire a good lawyer and sue this company.
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote: Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work".
you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works?
People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money.
The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games?
Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote: Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work".
you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works?
People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money.
The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games?
Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
Well, you don't understand how this works. Own3d generates revenue with ads. To get people view these ads they have to offer something interesting, which in this case is live streaming games by professional gamers. So why do you think they do not generate revenue?
On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote: Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work".
you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works?
People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money.
The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games?
Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
Why would you pay NFL players, NHL players, movie celebrities, etc etc etc... Should we not pay for our entertainment anymore?
On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote: Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work".
you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works?
People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money.
The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games?
Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
Think of them as entertainers. TV stars, athletes, people who perform in plays, musicians, and many other forms of entertainment are equal to what these people do. TV stars are the prime example, as no one shows up to watch them live, and are paid purely through ad revenue that the network makes.
They aren't being payed to play a game. They are being paid because they entertain enough people to make to make it profitable(or beneficial at the very least) for ad agency's to pay them to put their ads on their channels.
I feel like we're getting to the point where no one will be willing to work with anyone in this industry... If people don't become more tact/professional, this could lead to the downfall of *gasp* eSports!
On January 19 2013 00:58 purecarnagge wrote: Destiny is a different person than most people would like to see. He has his audience and it supports him. /congrats to that.
Destiny is a flavor that not all enjoy. He has his flaws, and his strong qualities and characteristics. I wish people would stop flaming him.
He hasn't killed anyone He's not a sex offender He's not a rapist.
Hating on Destiny seems pretty weak when you stand up out of your chair and step into the real world with real problems.
It's pretty much irrelevant to the actual conversation when it comes to payment. I find it funny every other person posts something pertaining to his character when it serves no purpose here. Good show.
On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote: Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work".
you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works?
People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money.
The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games?
Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
Why would somebody pay other people for chasing a ball.
On January 18 2013 23:28 costinii wrote: These are very serious allegations. Happy to see this kind of issues being on the spotlight.
Teamliquid is very important because it gives voice to the community in these situations.
Confirming this is true, I will not ever again visit Own3d nor will I watch, stream or mention this brand to anyone who is within my circle of friends. Well, the part of not fulfilling with contracts and all the lying will be mentioned as well. This seems just too bad to be true.
This character, Oleg Kogut, seems to be a criminal. It is this kind of people that don't matter to our society. If he was to be killed or dead, I guess not many people would miss him and even some would be probably happy with it. I am sorry if I seem to hard on this character, but for me when you give your word, it is whole different level.. you break it, you are as good as dead (unless you have a strong motive to fail with your obligations, I do know that sometimes things don't go the way we planned.. but this trail of lies makes me really mad).
Best of luck for the people who had this unlucky experience! Keep it strong! Cheers!
It's this kind of rhetoric that is absolutely poisonous. How you can say something like that without regard is disturbing.
While no doubt he appears as scum from Destiny's post, we have not even heard his side of the story. And even in the case that the account of Destiny is perfectly representative, death is hardly a justifiable punishment for what essentially is lying and stealing.
I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote: Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work".
you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works?
If we put the volatility of the banking and stockmarket sector vs the internet streaming sector then yes streaming is lightyears away. If you are as naive to put your life's income that your wife and kid count on into the hands of some internet company that isn't operating from the same country you live in and within a medium that is still new and unstable, well, then you're simply gambling.
You'd think all these people together could band together and get a single lawyer and threaten legal action. One person may not have the financial clout to do so, but the sheer volume of complaints suggests if everyone got together it wouldn't be prohibitively expensive.
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
Has any of the bigger League of legends or Dota players commented on this? I know joindota streams on Own3d, and so does Navi (dendi often pulls around 10k viewers just on a regular streaming session) and also a lot of the most popular streamers in LoL stream on own3d as far as I know (Don't really know the viewerships there that much but think someone like Ocelote, and maybe also CLG or TSM or both, are both pretty high up there).
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
This is true. I've written many contracts and signed many contracts for my business over many many years. Destiny can whine about the CEO contacting a lawyer, but that's what you're supposed to do (in fact, that's what he should do as well). He's simply naive on that point.
He does have a real grievance with the company, no doubt. Failure to pay (on time or at all) is one of the reasons you have a contract in the first place. The problem here, and I've seen it written elsewhere, is many of the people signing these contracts have no real idea what they are signing.
You must *always* read the contract, especially if you didn't write it. Bring it to your lawyer and have them look it over. Contracts are negotiable, you are allowed to add/subtract/veto anything in it. All that matters is that at the end of the day the terms work for both parties. If they don't, you simply don't sign it.
Contracts I write (or modify) are always slanted in my favor as much as possible. Failure to pay on time imposes late fees that compound over time. Default in payment means the other party pays the legal fees for me to sue them. I own all copyright. I can cancel the contract at any time for any reason with full payment regardless, etc, etc.
And before you ask why any company would sign something like that, it's because many of them read the contracts about as much as some of these people in the esports scene do. Also, if they really want you, they will bend some rules to get you. Basically, Destiny needs to both learn a little more about how contract negotiations work, and not sell himself so short.
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties.
This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing?
Well, I guess what we can learn from this is that Own3d is a failing company whose biggest problem was ad agencies who simply wouldn't pay on time. And it's ridiculous to say "long time" when we're talking about 6-9 month back payments. That's not just a "long time." That's 6-9 months of not being able to pay bills, not being able to eat well, not being able to do much of anything. Destiny's case is even worse. His family would have starved if he didn't have a huge savings. vV.RuFF has run his credit into the ground just so that he could avoid bankruptcy. He's going to spend years paying that off. 6-9 months in this case is an utter failure of responsibility on Own3d's part, and the part of the ad agencies.
I've never really understood Destiny's appeal, but goddamn. The man should be able to eat and support his family. And anyone saying he's awful so why should we care is why, once again, I'm going to reiterate that the SC2 community is getting more and more ridiculous.
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
No! A thousand times no in fact.
Being a professional at something does not in any way shape or form imply that you should adhere to a contract that the other side broke. It's as simple as that. If Own3d had paid Destiny properly he most likely would still stream for them, since they don't he should most certainly switch.
Maybe he should have contacted a lawyer and sued them (in fact I've argued exactly that earlier in this thread), but he most certainly should have made sure he can actually earn enough money to live as soon as possible, given the communication with Own3d he made the right step.
You are correct that you should involve a lawyer often to cover your options, but frankly your comparing apples to oranges, you work for a big corporation in an established legal department, Destiny is basically a free agent and thanks to Own3d he is literally struggling to feed his wife and kid, he doesn't have the time to involve a lawyer and jump through twelve hoops before he starts earning money again (most likely he can't even afford to hire a lawyer to begin with).
Let me reiterate my point, no matter where you work and what contract you are under if the other party does not give you what they owe you for more than 3 months almost anyone would cancel the contract. They might do it by contacting their lawyer and suing, or they might simply send a letter/email telling them to get lost, either way they would be well within their rights to stop working for them.
On January 19 2013 01:38 Earll wrote: Has any of the bigger League of legends or Dota players commented on this? I know joindota streams on Own3d, and so does Navi (dendi often pulls around 10k viewers just on a regular streaming session) and also a lot of the most popular streamers in LoL stream on own3d as far as I know (Don't really know the viewerships there that much but think someone like Ocelote, and maybe also CLG or TSM or both, are both pretty high up there).
Wickd, from CLG, was playing in a game the other day with Ocelote and they read the article on stream. They both agreed with Destiny, and that is why CLG and TSM moved to Twitch.
"sad thing is own3d.tv had a huge opportunity, to make a shit load of money. I had 42k viewers on their platform once, I have no idea how they couldn't invest their profits into streamers making them bigger." - Dyrus.
On January 19 2013 01:38 Earll wrote: Has any of the bigger League of legends or Dota players commented on this? I know joindota streams on Own3d, and so does Navi (dendi often pulls around 10k viewers just on a regular streaming session) and also a lot of the most popular streamers in LoL stream on own3d as far as I know (Don't really know the viewerships there that much but think someone like Ocelote, and maybe also CLG or TSM or both, are both pretty high up there).
TSM switched to twitch a while ago because of the same issue (weren't being paid). Some other LoL teams/streamers did at around the same time as well. No clue why some teams like Curse stuck around on own3d. Could be the difference in how important streaming revenue is to each team.
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties.
This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing?
A honest question from someone who is not at all into law: If one party breaches the contract isnt the contract broken? Does it matter that the other party no longer follows the contract after that?
On January 18 2013 23:31 TypeLex wrote: On the Type Gaming side, we did get our payments but indeed after a while. Still, overall Own3D staff was overall quite helpful especially regarding technical issues.
From what I've gathered, the payments are not really in their hands, I was working in Dubai on similar deals and here's how it panned out every-time: Viewers see Adverts(Ads) on Streamer -> Agency (Own3D for example) collects all the statistics + Ads provider collects all the statistics -> Agency sends data to Ads Provider -> Ads Provider checks the data against its own Database -> *if* there are no issue, Ads Provider pays the Agency (It takes a long time) -> Agency pays Streamer
It's not as straight forward as it looks and I personally think we should try to find a way to support initiatives like Own3D and TwitchTV, they really are pushing the industry in a new direction which is micro-advertizing, without them we'd have seen a lot of players go out of eSports already. None-the-less, there should be more transparency, but we all know how lawyers are in terms of Corporate Image so do we even want these guys to take the risk ?
If they are not in their hands, maybe give an explanation to the streamers who they owe money. For example many teams just dodge and lie to their players why they don't get their salary. "I wired the money to your bank account today, it should arrive there in few days", which is bullshit and players doesn't get the money. If they would just tell the truth like sponsors haven't paid us yet etc.. players would be more understanding, but instead they wait for months and months before finally leaving the team after begin owed a lot of money and told countless of lies.
Seems like own3d is indeed a tad shady. Which is sad, because it is usually a lot less laggy than twitch for me. Are there still any notable SC2 players streaming on Own3D? My impression was that most of our community are on twitch, right?
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties.
This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing?
A honest question from someone who is not at all into law: If one party breaches the contract isnt the contract broken? Does it matter that the other party no longer follows the contract after that?
You are 100% correct. The contract is then null and void. If Destiny had the resources I am sure he would have taken his case to court.
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
No! A thousand times no in fact.
Being a professional at something does not in any way shape or form imply that you should adhere to a contract that the other side broke. It's as simple as that. If Own3d had paid Destiny properly he most likely would still stream for them, since they don't he should most certainly switch.
Maybe he should have contacted a lawyer and sued them (in fact I've argued exactly that earlier in this thread), but he most certainly should have made sure he can actually earn enough money to live as soon as possible, given the communication with Own3d he made the right step.
You are correct that you should involve a lawyer often to cover your options, but frankly your comparing apples to oranges, you work for a big corporation in an established legal department, Destiny is basically a free agent and thanks to Own3d he is literally struggling to feed his wife and kid, he doesn't have the time to involve a lawyer and jump through twelve hoops before he starts earning money again (most likely he can't even afford to hire a lawyer to begin with).
Let me reiterate my point, no matter where you work and what contract you are under if the other party does not give you what they owe you for more than 3 months almost anyone would cancel the contract. They might do it by contacting their lawyer and suing, or they might simply send a letter/email telling them to get lost, either way they would be well within their rights to stop working for them.
No no, I do not work for a big corporation. We have 8 people in our office, therefore I can speak to what contract terms mean for your business.
The point I'm trying to make is that there is a legal process and precedents set throughout the legal world that provide for anyone to protect themselves.
You make assumptions on what the contract says, a common mistake that people make. The contract language stipulates the relationship. If the contract did not have any language regarding the Company not paying wages and the employees rights of action should that happen, well, then that's just the way it is.
Again, I was only offering advice for "after-the-fact," hopefully he will learn to protect himself better in the future endeavors he involves himself in. Just because your awesome at one thing does not mean you are qualified to understand another thing.
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties.
This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing?
A honest question from someone who is not at all into law: If one party breaches the contract isnt the contract broken? Does it matter that the other party no longer follows the contract after that?
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
Maybe a cultural thing, but here in Germany, you can get a 'Rechtsschutzversicherung' - direct translation would be 'law protection insurance - that covers all costs of court cases, unless of course you commit a crime yourself or something like that, starting at about 6 dollars per month. Do such things exist in the US?
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties.
This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing?
A honest question from someone who is not at all into law: If one party breaches the contract isnt the contract broken? Does it matter that the other party no longer follows the contract after that?
Actually, no, it all depends what was written into the contract. Failure to pay does *not* necessarily mean the contract was breeched. Until we see the exact contract, we do not know if it was broken.
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
Maybe a cultural thing, but here in Germany, you can get a 'Rechtsschutzversicherung' - direct translation would be 'law protection insurance - that covers all costs of court cases, unless of course you commit a crime yourself or something like that, starting at about 6 dollars per month. Do such things exist in the US?
Doesn't work like that in the USA, sadly. The only time we are appointed an attorney for free is if we commit a crime. We have to pay a lot in the USA for lawyers. Jealous that you only have to pay 6 dollars though...
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties.
This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing?
A honest question from someone who is not at all into law: If one party breaches the contract isnt the contract broken? Does it matter that the other party no longer follows the contract after that?
Actually, no, it all depends what was written into the contract. Failure to pay does *not* necessarily mean the contract was breeched. Until we see the exact contract, we do not know if it was broken.
Ah, but then the contract wouldnt be breached would it? I was asking a more general question since we're all just speculating what the full contract says anyway.
On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote: Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work".
you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works?
People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money.
The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games?
Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
gamers work long hours and get compensated for their time and effort they put in to give us, the community a great entertainment.
because its a business.
Because its entertainment value in it.
Because in this case, Destiny performed a service ( he streamed thus making it possible for companies to run commercials, which creates value).
Why would someone pay somebody for any sport event? soccer? Icehockey? Football? baseball? etc etc etc Because it brings entertainment value.
Imo, culture in itself brings value and thus should be supported.
IMO; Stocktraders and the stockmarket are parasites on the system and earns money by having a buttload of money in the first place to earn more money with.
On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote: I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake.
However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed.
If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile.
I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are.
On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:
On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote: Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it).
Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all.
I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS.
FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
While I agree in general, it would cost Destiny thousands of dollars to get this to court, Ctone is not wrong. By deliberately breaching the contract that was signed, Destiny is taking a risk. While he may believe he understands the contract fully, it's possible he's overlooking something or doesn't 100% understand the wording (though I want to point out that I feel he's probably got a good enough grasp on the issue to know what he's doing). Should he have broken the contract in a way that the written text allows Own3d to action, then he'd be up shit creek. Don't let your desire to see the right thing done blind you into thinking that the wrong thing cannot happen and happen legally is all.
It's also possible that the contract was written with loopholes allowing for delays in payment. Hell it's possible that the contract wasn't legally binding at all in the first place. I've heard stories of typos invalidating contracts, it's likely those were more sensationalist anecdotes than anything, but for serious contracts I can't imagine everything is simply accepted as written. If Own3d is a European company (which I've heard) it's also possible that contract law is different for them than it is for us, and it's possible that there are other ways around paying/breaching the contract that would be legal or cancel the contract out at all.
I guess not many care about Athene either, but he also made a video about his experiences with Own3d. I assume same goes with big WoW figure, Swifty, who streams on the same platform.
After watching both Athene's video and Destiny's blog, I have to say I'm pretty shocked to see how bad the situation is. I have to say that Destiny kind of should've seen this coming. I mean it really sucks for him and his family, but reading the skype log, it was kind of obvious this "Oleg" guy wasn't legit.
I sincerely hope this resolves for the best and Destiny and that streaming platforms get their shit together. Maybe AzubuTV will be more stable if it gets released.
PS. Weirdly enough, the video announcing AzubuTV (hosted on justintv / twitch) has been removed O.O
i read this article on destinys site earlier. it is really bad news it seems. i always thought that own was kinda a crappy site anyway. this stuff only makes it seem worse.
On January 19 2013 02:42 crbox wrote: After watching both Athene's video and Destiny's blog, I have to say I'm pretty shocked to see how bad the situation is. I have to say that Destiny kind of should've seen this coming. I mean it really sucks for him and his family, but reading the skype log, it was kind of obvious this "Oleg" guy wasn't legit.
I sincerely hope this resolves for the best and Destiny and that streaming platforms get their shit together. Maybe AzubuTV will be more stable if it gets released.
PS. Weirdly enough, the video announcing AzubuTV (hosted on justintv / twitch) has been removed O.O
edit how is this a beginner's guide? hasn't this kid been kicked off of multiple teams for being an asshole? I wouldn't pay this kid a haypenny no matter how "badass" of a gamer he is.
While I agree that you should get paid if you provided services inline with your contractual obligations, I still don't understand how someone continues to work under a breached contract AND not get paid for 6 months. If his family is so damn important to him, then why didn't he bail after month #2? It just seems apparent that the supposed "scene/industry/whateverthefuckyouwannacallit" is so bad that this is somewhat normal or at least not surprising.
Personally, the minute someone doesn't meet their contractual obligations with me, I'm out. I stop providing services or payment until things get worked out. I'm more interested in what Destiny was doing to support his family in the last 3 months before finally breaking his contract.
On January 19 2013 01:38 Earll wrote: Has any of the bigger League of legends or Dota players commented on this? I know joindota streams on Own3d, and so does Navi (dendi often pulls around 10k viewers just on a regular streaming session) and also a lot of the most popular streamers in LoL stream on own3d as far as I know (Don't really know the viewerships there that much but think someone like Ocelote, and maybe also CLG or TSM or both, are both pretty high up there).
I saw froggen at 30-35k yesterday, and the others from CLG often are between 5k and 15-20k. All of TSM is around 20k too. All on Twitch, of course. Only ones on own3d with those numbers are CLG.na, it's been a while tho.
It's a lot of viewers lost with only those two teams.
I'm still quite curious on how it's big news, I was sure everyone knew own3d had a lot of problems with their payment system. I've heard of those things since more than 6 months. I hope now, players will have the balls to stop their contracts with own3d if they have the same problems, since it doesn't appear it's getting better.
Own3d could have been good competition for Twitch.....now they just seem like a bunch of shady dudes who don't really know how to run a streaming infrastructure.
On January 19 2013 01:38 Earll wrote: Has any of the bigger League of legends or Dota players commented on this? I know joindota streams on Own3d, and so does Navi (dendi often pulls around 10k viewers just on a regular streaming session) and also a lot of the most popular streamers in LoL stream on own3d as far as I know (Don't really know the viewerships there that much but think someone like Ocelote, and maybe also CLG or TSM or both, are both pretty high up there).
I'm still quite curious on how it's big news, I was sure everyone knew own3d had a lot of problems with their payment system. I've heard of those things since more than 6 months.
It's been known forever, but it's big news cause this is the first time a streamer went public with it and in detail. All other streamers were too scared to before, I would guess. Every big LoL streamer could have made the same post destiny did, but they never did. Therefore, the general public who didn't hear about it before, just found out how bad it was yesterday.
On January 18 2013 10:42 Zephirdd wrote: this explains why many people switched from own3d back to twitch lately.
Is this true to dota community as well? I remember not watching tobiwan's casts because it was always through own3d, which for some reason is incredibly laggy and shitty for me(I'd assume it's my connection's fault, but the lag only occurs on own3d streams).
One thing is for certain, it's good that people out when this kind of situation occur. If you just sit on yourself and move on without calling them out, these kind of issues will just occur more and more.
I don't think it is your internet connection because I have a really good internet connection and own3d lags for me sometimes as well. I think it is own3d's infrastructure that sucks. I also don't know why people prefer to stream on own3d.
I don't think own3d provides a good viewing experience anyways (if there is no lag). The website design is pretty awful and I personally don't like the chat system on own3d.
On January 19 2013 03:27 farvacola wrote: Own3d could have been good competition for Twitch.....now they just seem like a bunch of shady dudes who don't really know how to run a streaming infrastructure.
U should place this in the right perspective tho. When destiny posts something, it isnt the truth, its his truth. Thats the big difference, a story like this has 2 sides. I see here alot of posts like the oleg/guy is an asshole, but be honest, destiney didnt hold to the contract, this is bad. After this, he is flaming oleg and owned.tv because he breached his contract. Thats nothing to be proud of if i were destiny... WIll be interesting how this turns out.
Why is it that destiny someway or another always finds himself in some kind of trouble LOL, in his stream he even said that he thinks SC might have a warrant for his arrest LMAO!.
On January 19 2013 03:27 farvacola wrote: Own3d could have been good competition for Twitch.....now they just seem like a bunch of shady dudes who don't really know how to run a streaming infrastructure.
U should place this in the right perspective tho. When destiny posts something, it isnt the truth, its his truth. Thats the big difference, a story like this has 2 sides. I see here alot of posts like the oleg/guy is an asshole, but be honest, destiney didnt hold to the contract, this is bad. After this, he is flaming oleg and owned.tv because he breached his contract. Thats nothing to be proud of if i were destiny... WIll be interesting how this turns out.
But before Destiny ended up leaving own3d, they had already been failing to pay him since July (which he received much much later than July). The contract at this point was already breached, how long was Destiny supposed to abide by these terms without pay but still streaming on their service?
And from the overall conversation from all the popular streamers on own3d, this does not seem to just be a "Destiny Problem". While own3d has their side of the story, not paying the people providing you content for nearly half a year is too much.
On January 19 2013 03:27 farvacola wrote: Own3d could have been good competition for Twitch.....now they just seem like a bunch of shady dudes who don't really know how to run a streaming infrastructure.
U should place this in the right perspective tho. When destiny posts something, it isnt the truth, its his truth. Thats the big difference, a story like this has 2 sides. I see here alot of posts like the oleg/guy is an asshole, but be honest, destiney didnt hold to the contract, this is bad. After this, he is flaming oleg and owned.tv because he breached his contract. Thats nothing to be proud of if i were destiny... WIll be interesting how this turns out.
You might want to look over how many people talk about how own3d had failed to live up to their promises and deliver pay to their streamers. Whether you like Destiny or not is irrelevant. Whether Oleg is an asshole is irrelevant. Clearly Destiny didn't hold to the contract, but there was an escape clause and he was willing to meet that clause. It wasn't flaming, it was more here's some information about own3d's business model.
The main topic to be discussed here should be getting more information about own3d and whether they are paying players/teams/streamers and not Destiny.
On January 19 2013 03:41 number01 wrote: Why is it that destiny someway or another always finds himself in some kind of trouble LOL, in his stream he even said that he thinks SC might have a warrant for his arrest LMAO!.
I'm appalled by this some members of this communities' willingness to focus on the relatively unimportant (Destiny) when discussing such an important topic (own3d doesn't pay streamers).
On January 19 2013 03:41 number01 wrote: Why is it that destiny someway or another always finds himself in some kind of trouble LOL, in his stream he even said that he thinks SC might have a warrant for his arrest LMAO!.
I'm appalled by this some members of this communities' willingness to focus on the relatively unimportant (Destiny) when discussing such an important topic (own3d doesn't pay streamers).
LOL! what own3d did is obviously wrong but destiny is a funny man XD
On January 19 2013 03:27 farvacola wrote: Own3d could have been good competition for Twitch.....now they just seem like a bunch of shady dudes who don't really know how to run a streaming infrastructure.
Not to mention they shot them selves in the foot by not paying Destiny, even if they were using some back alley tactics taking money from others to pay their former contracts to give them an appearance of legitimacy, not paying Destiny was a bad mistake.
if we assume that they are a legitimate buisness however, they are now screwed anyways because they will lose most others who streamed on their site and noone new will come to them. not to mention what they will lose to a class action lawsuit that is bound to come of this. im sure there is atleast one probono lawyer out there waiting to take this case.
in this thread, foreigners complain they dont get paid to play video games.
if you want money actually win a tournament for once.
I absouletly hate the streaming model, i believe in the long run it hurts the scene as a whole by watering down the amount of content viewable at any time. This detracts from the specialness of tournaments and creates an atmosphere where the viewer thinks they deserve things for free.
Awful, you all brough this upon yourselves. Read the contracts people, and think ahead. Shame.
I predict own3d will go bankrupt soon and no one will get any money owed because even if you sue them you can't extract any money from them, when they don't have any.
On January 19 2013 03:55 WackaAlpaca wrote: in this thread, foreigners complain they dont get paid to play video games.
if you want money actually win a tournament for once.
I absouletly hate the streaming model, i believe in the long run it hurts the scene as a whole by watering down the amount of content viewable at any time. This detracts from the specialness of tournaments and creates an atmosphere where the viewer thinks they deserve things for free.
Awful, you all brough this upon yourselves. Read the contracts people, and think ahead. Shame.
If you read destiny's statement, the whole problem is the fact that companies are not respecting the contracts not the other way around.
On January 19 2013 03:55 WackaAlpaca wrote: in this thread, foreigners complain they dont get paid to play video games.
if you want money actually win a tournament for once.
I absouletly hate the streaming model, i believe in the long run it hurts the scene as a whole by watering down the amount of content viewable at any time. This detracts from the specialness of tournaments and creates an atmosphere where the viewer thinks they deserve things for free.
Awful, you all brough this upon yourselves. Read the contracts people, and think ahead. Shame.
Well congratulations, you've actually gone beyond the usual level of retardation we see in these kind of threads to a place few have dared to tread. You are an embarrassment.
On January 19 2013 03:55 WackaAlpaca wrote: in this thread, foreigners complain they dont get paid to play video games.
if you want money actually win a tournament for once.
I absouletly hate the streaming model, i believe in the long run it hurts the scene as a whole by watering down the amount of content viewable at any time. This detracts from the specialness of tournaments and creates an atmosphere where the viewer thinks they deserve things for free.
Awful, you all brough this upon yourselves. Read the contracts people, and think ahead. Shame.
Are you 100% sure there is a clause in those contracts that say "we pay you when we please, and some times we never pay you"?
On January 19 2013 03:41 number01 wrote: Why is it that destiny someway or another always finds himself in some kind of trouble LOL, in his stream he even said that he thinks SC might have a warrant for his arrest LMAO!.
I'm appalled by this some members of this communities' willingness to focus on the relatively unimportant (Destiny) when discussing such an important topic (own3d doesn't pay streamers).
LOL! what own3d did is obviously wrong but destiny is a funny man XD
The point the other guy was trying to make is the fact you guys keep bombarding this thread with your thoughts on destiny when it has little to do with his actual character and has everything to do with how streamers collect their paychecks. This has been an issue for a very long time. Collecting for just about everything in this scene has always been problematic.
On January 19 2013 03:55 WackaAlpaca wrote: in this thread, foreigners complain they dont get paid to play video games.
if you want money actually win a tournament for once.
I absouletly hate the streaming model, i believe in the long run it hurts the scene as a whole by watering down the amount of content viewable at any time. This detracts from the specialness of tournaments and creates an atmosphere where the viewer thinks they deserve things for free.
Awful, you all brough this upon yourselves. Read the contracts people, and think ahead. Shame.
You do realize Destiny, for one, isn't a pro-gamer right? He dabbled in it sure, but I don't think he ever considered himself a 'pro-gamer'. His main source of income was always streaming, so winning a tournament for him, Athene and others like them wasn't feasible. And as for watering down content and tourneys, they do that to themselves with just the sheer amount of them.
By all accounts it sounds like own3d is on the fast track to bankruptcy lol. I don't know why any streamer would stick own3d anymore after this news. The ship is sinking.
On January 19 2013 03:41 number01 wrote: Why is it that destiny someway or another always finds himself in some kind of trouble LOL, in his stream he even said that he thinks SC might have a warrant for his arrest LMAO!.
I'm appalled by this some members of this communities' willingness to focus on the relatively unimportant (Destiny) when discussing such an important topic (own3d doesn't pay streamers).
LOL! what own3d did is obviously wrong but destiny is a funny man XD
The point the other guy was trying to make is the fact you guys keep bombarding this thread with your thoughts on destiny when it has little to do with his actual character and has everything to do with how streamers collect their paychecks. This has been an issue for a very long time. Collecting for just about everything in this scene has always been problematic.
I agree with you. But for some reason when you mix destiny with some type of issue it always causes controversy LMAO
On January 19 2013 03:31 Canucklehead wrote: It's been known forever, but it's big news cause this is the first time a streamer went public with it and in detail. All other streamers were too scared to before, I would guess. Every big LoL streamer could have made the same post destiny did, but they never did. Therefore, the general public who didn't hear about it before, just found out how bad it was yesterday.
Okay, thanks ! True that no one did a statement before.
On January 19 2013 03:55 WackaAlpaca wrote: in this thread, foreigners complain they dont get paid to play video games.
if you want money actually win a tournament for once.
I absouletly hate the streaming model, i believe in the long run it hurts the scene as a whole by watering down the amount of content viewable at any time. This detracts from the specialness of tournaments and creates an atmosphere where the viewer thinks they deserve things for free.
Awful, you all brough this upon yourselves. Read the contracts people, and think ahead. Shame.
Well congratulations, you've actually gone beyond the usual level of retardation we see in these kind of threads to a place few have dared to tread. You are an embarrassment.
TB my new Hero! good god there is still someone out there spanking all the narrowminded ppl
Athene (also a streamer on Own3D along with others on AtheneLive) has sparked a big debate here. If Own3D falls, this could give Twitch a monopoly, which Athene doesn't want.
On January 19 2013 04:31 Nomzter wrote: Some of the comments here are just as disgusting as own3d not paying streamers... But i guess that's just how the internet is.
Perhaps you can generalize to the internet, but at minimum, this is some members of the TL Sc2 community...
If Own3d is not paying streamers then they most likely have financial issues. They wont go out and say they have financial issues as that would make it even worse. Twitch.tv has become incredibly big and its due to a way better website in my opinion. So i guess Own3d will fall apart soon.
On January 19 2013 03:41 number01 wrote: Why is it that destiny someway or another always finds himself in some kind of trouble LOL, in his stream he even said that he thinks SC might have a warrant for his arrest LMAO!.
I'm appalled by this some members of this communities' willingness to focus on the relatively unimportant (Destiny) when discussing such an important topic (own3d doesn't pay streamers).
It should not surprise you that who is involved is as important as what is involved. That is the way real life works. No one is impartial.
Take this as a lesson: if you want support choose likable people to be the face. If this thread was titled "Husky has problems with own3d" the entire content of this thread would be different.
On January 19 2013 03:27 farvacola wrote: Own3d could have been good competition for Twitch.....now they just seem like a bunch of shady dudes who don't really know how to run a streaming infrastructure.
U should place this in the right perspective tho. When destiny posts something, it isnt the truth, its his truth. Thats the big difference, a story like this has 2 sides. I see here alot of posts like the oleg/guy is an asshole, but be honest, destiney didnt hold to the contract, this is bad. After this, he is flaming oleg and owned.tv because he breached his contract. Thats nothing to be proud of if i were destiny... WIll be interesting how this turns out.
He didn't get payed for 6 month, how is someone supposed to follow a contract then? If I do not get my payment I can leave the contract, it's as simple as that.
It annoys me so much as it discourages people from doing what I enjoy watching most and its just unfair on all of the streamers. This needs to be fixed.
Athene (also a streamer on Own3D along with others on AtheneLive) has sparked a big debate here. If Own3D falls, this could give Twitch a monopoly, which Athene doesn't want.
Anyone wants a monopoly but let's be honest here. own3D fu***** sucks. Deal with it. own3D already lost everyone due not providing the best services (both for customers/viewers as well as streamers) and the only ones remaining there are Na'Vi (Dendi gets 10,000 concurrent viewers almost every time he streams), Counter Logic Gaming, SingSing and joinDOTA.
If Twitch provides good content for us and keeps the streamers happy with everything and keeps improving I don't see any problem with that. Worry not because there will be a competitor sooner rather than later if that indeed happens.
On January 19 2013 03:55 WackaAlpaca wrote: in this thread, foreigners complain they dont get paid to play video games.
if you want money actually win a tournament for once.
I absouletly hate the streaming model, i believe in the long run it hurts the scene as a whole by watering down the amount of content viewable at any time. This detracts from the specialness of tournaments and creates an atmosphere where the viewer thinks they deserve things for free.
Awful, you all brough this upon yourselves. Read the contracts people, and think ahead. Shame.
Well congratulations, you've actually gone beyond the usual level of retardation we see in these kind of threads to a place few have dared to tread. You are an embarrassment.
TB my new Hero! good god there is still someone out there spanking all the narrowminded ppl
Really? huh. I just hear a pot calling a kettle black.
Livestream, ustream, dailymotion, youtube... there are several other streaming sites that people can use. The only difference is these do not actively target gamers.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Ya exactly why make the post.... I think he just makes noise. Just sue them not like we on to can do anything.
Have you considered the fact that not being paid for 5 months may not have left him in a financial position to hire a lawyer and pursue legal action, or that Owned is based in Austria, causing such pursuit to be much more difficult?
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Ya exactly why make the post.... I think he just makes noise. Just sue them not like we on to can do anything.
Because he doesn't have the funds to pursue legal action. Suing isn't free, you know.
I find it funny how many people think you can just up and sue someone. You have to have the cash to hire the lawyer to sue someone and you have to do a cost benefit analysis to see if it is even worth suing someone (ie you could get a settlement that would cover your lawyer fees and you still get what is owed to you).
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Ya exactly why make the post.... I think he just makes noise. Just sue them not like we on to can do anything.
Because he doesn't have the funds to pursue legal action. Suing isn't free, you know.
I find it funny how many people think you can just up and sue someone. You have to have the cash to hire the lawyer to sue someone and you have to do a cost benefit analysis to see if it is even worth suing someone (ie you could get a settlement that would cover your lawyer fees and you still get what is owed to you).
(Un)common sense is so hard to come by these days. Hire a lawyer for 15k to possibly reclaim the 5k owed to me? Great deal! Let's go!
Own3d's service has always been horrendous. I was incredibly shocked when Steven switched to streaming with them over twitch.tv, and I always imagined they must have incentivized him somehow.
I actually had to stop watching Steven's stream after he switched because it lagged when I put it on 1080p and flat out didn't work on anything lower. For the longest time I thought it was simply my internet or computer, but even after upgrading both of those things it still didn't work. It turns out I was right to assume the issue lies with Own3d.
Here's hoping this story reaches as many people as possible and Own3d phases out of existence. They way they've treated Steven is unacceptable. I'm definitely going to start watching Steven's stream again and possibly even subscribe, if for no other reason than I feel bad for the situation he's in.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Ya exactly why make the post.... I think he just makes noise. Just sue them not like we on to can do anything.
Because he doesn't have the funds to pursue legal action. Suing isn't free, you know.
I find it funny how many people think you can just up and sue someone. You have to have the cash to hire the lawyer to sue someone and you have to do a cost benefit analysis to see if it is even worth suing someone (ie you could get a settlement that would cover your lawyer fees and you still get what is owed to you).
(Un)common sense is so hard to come by these days. Hire a lawyer for 15k to possibly reclaim the 5k owed to me? Great deal! Let's go!
His rough estimation of the money he lost is between $15 000 and $30 000. He simply doesn't have the funds or the time to pursue that kind of legal action. But if telling the story helps clean up the industry, or prevents others from being cheated the way he was, then why wouldn't he tell the story? You certainly "on to can do anything", you can spread the information so that people make informed choices on which company they choose to work with or support.
This is the end of Own3d if this many players are having issues getting their money. It means their advert revenue and income is less than their operational costs.
They might hang around for a while, taking advantage of smaller players and people who will use their service for free, etc, but eventually, they will close.
If by some miracle they come into some money, satisfy their debts, and get back on the straight path, I will be truly amazed. I've seen many companies go broke, trying to stay afloat, making and breaking promises, it always ends the same.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Ya exactly why make the post.... I think he just makes noise. Just sue them not like we on to can do anything.
Because he doesn't have the funds to pursue legal action. Suing isn't free, you know.
I find it funny how many people think you can just up and sue someone. You have to have the cash to hire the lawyer to sue someone and you have to do a cost benefit analysis to see if it is even worth suing someone (ie you could get a settlement that would cover your lawyer fees and you still get what is owed to you).
(Un)common sense is so hard to come by these days. Hire a lawyer for 15k to possibly reclaim the 5k owed to me? Great deal! Let's go!
His rough estimation of the money he lost is between $15 000 and $30 000. He simply doesn't have the funds or the time to pursue that kind of legal action. But if telling the story helps clean up the industry, or prevents others from being cheated the way he was, then why wouldn't he tell the story? You certainly "on to can do anything", you can spread the information so that people make informed choices on which company they choose to work with or support.
I completely agree, spreading the story was by far the best move. My sarcastic comment was more aimed at people who seem to think that suing own3d will be a quick fix to the situation without considering the logistics behind it.
to all the people talking about lawyers, in these types of cases the attorney usually works on contingency (i.e., you dont pay unless they win). however, finding a lawyer who would do this case for such a low amount of damages is unlikely especially considering an out-of-country defendant. a lawsuit is not practical in this case.
The only reason I like own2d better ATM is because my little bro used my comp to post porn links in chat channels on Twitch and now I'm IP banned. I've contacted Twitch but they won't help me. I wish I wouldn't have paid for subbing to channels if I wasn't going to be able to use the service.
On January 19 2013 06:21 grockey wrote: The only reason I like own2d better ATM is because my little bro used my comp to post porn links in chat channels on Twitch and now I'm IP banned. I've contacted Twitch but they won't help me. I wish I wouldn't have paid for subbing to channels if I wasn't going to be able to use the service.
On January 19 2013 06:21 grockey wrote: The only reason I like own2d better ATM is because my little bro used my comp to post porn links in chat channels on Twitch and now I'm IP banned. I've contacted Twitch but they won't help me. I wish I wouldn't have paid for subbing to channels if I wasn't going to be able to use the service.
lol you deserved it
also changing IPs is really difficult, i seriously doubt they would ban a range of IPs for something so minor
On January 19 2013 06:17 dAPhREAk wrote: to all the people talking about lawyers, in these types of cases the attorney usually works on contingency (i.e., you dont pay unless they win). however, finding a lawyer who would do this case for such a low amount of damages is unlikely especially considering an out-of-country defendant. a lawsuit is not practical in this case.
Having gone through the effort to file a legal action for a client against someone who is not in the US or a citizen, it is a HUGE amount of work. Plus since the amount is over $25,000, it would be a Superior Court action, which take a minimum of two years to resolve, without an appeal. If he would like need to go to Federal Court because Owned is not based in the US, as well.
In short, it would be a crap ton of work over two years and even if he won, who knows if he would get the money. Owned might be gone by then, owners and founders nowhere to be found.
On January 19 2013 06:21 grockey wrote: The only reason I like own2d better ATM is because my little bro used my comp to post porn links in chat channels on Twitch and now I'm IP banned. I've contacted Twitch but they won't help me. I wish I wouldn't have paid for subbing to channels if I wasn't going to be able to use the service.
You are going to need to get a new ISP before they let you back on. Also, I would stop trying to call Twitch, since I’m pretty forgiving and I would never take that IP off my blacklist.
Also, once you get a new provider, I also strongly recommend slapping the hell out of our brother for being a idiot.
On January 19 2013 07:07 PuercoPop wrote: Maybe the streamers can unite? Isn't a class action suit made for this cases?
in which country and according to which set of laws? and even as a class, is there really enough money to justify it?
Well the US is the most valueable market, so that is where you would file suite. However, I don't know if non-citizens can be involved with a class-action or how any of that would work. So you are correct, not worth the money or time.
To quote one of the local judges around here: "There a lot of problems and many of them cannot be solved by the Court."
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
It seems so silly, you have a legally binding contract that they aren't fulfilling. Get a lawyer, make Owned pay for the lawyer fees and whatever they owe you. You can't lose...
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
It seems so silly, you have a legally binding contract that they aren't fulfilling. Get a lawyer, make Owned pay for the lawyer fees and whatever they owe you. You can't lose...
Costs for getting a lawyer, and even getting the case started will generally cost more than the money that's in question.
On January 19 2013 06:17 dAPhREAk wrote: to all the people talking about lawyers, in these types of cases the attorney usually works on contingency (i.e., you dont pay unless they win). however, finding a lawyer who would do this case for such a low amount of damages is unlikely especially considering an out-of-country defendant. a lawsuit is not practical in this case.
Having gone through the effort to file a legal action for a client against someone who is not in the US or a citizen, it is a HUGE amount of work. Plus since the amount is over $25,000, it would be a Superior Court action, which take a minimum of two years to resolve, without an appeal. If he would like need to go to Federal Court because Owned is not based in the US, as well.
In short, it would be a crap ton of work over two years and even if he won, who knows if he would get the money. Owned might be gone by then, owners and founders nowhere to be found.
requires 75k alleged damages to get diversity. it would be handled in a state court, likely whichever one Destiny resides in.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
It seems so silly, you have a legally binding contract that they aren't fulfilling. Get a lawyer, make Owned pay for the lawyer fees and whatever they owe you. You can't lose...
Unless the contract or state law stipulates otherwise, in America the general rule is AGAINST loser pays. This is different than most other systems.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
It seems so silly, you have a legally binding contract that they aren't fulfilling. Get a lawyer, make Owned pay for the lawyer fees and whatever they owe you. You can't lose...
Costs for getting a lawyer, and even getting the case started will generally cost more than the money that's in question.
This is a case where any lawyer could do it for you. You could really just pay a really cheap lawyer for this, it's not that complicated. Even if he's bad, he'll be good enough for this.
lol. lawsuits dont end when lawsuits end. lets say destiny sues him wherever destiny lives. owned says "fuck that, try to enforce it." destiny gets a default judgment for the full amount (court will still determine how much is due and you cant ask for an exorbitant amount). now what? unless owned has assets where destiny lives (or in the US), destiny has to take the judgment to austria (is that where owned is located?) and file a SECOND lawsuit to enforce the judgment. both lawsuits will be expensive, and the damages will not increase (except by interest).
On January 19 2013 06:17 dAPhREAk wrote: to all the people talking about lawyers, in these types of cases the attorney usually works on contingency (i.e., you dont pay unless they win). however, finding a lawyer who would do this case for such a low amount of damages is unlikely especially considering an out-of-country defendant. a lawsuit is not practical in this case.
Having gone through the effort to file a legal action for a client against someone who is not in the US or a citizen, it is a HUGE amount of work. Plus since the amount is over $25,000, it would be a Superior Court action, which take a minimum of two years to resolve, without an appeal. If he would likely need to go to Federal Court because Owned is not based in the US, as well.
In short, it would be a crap ton of work over two years and even if he won, who knows if he would get the money. Owned might be gone by then, owners and founders nowhere to be found.
requires 75k alleged damages to get diversity. it would be handled in a state court, likely whichever one Destiny resides in.
Ah, I have dealt with two international cases in my career and we were successor counsel on one. Mostly we deal with defendants dragging out cases up to Federal court and the court slapping them back down to the state courts like wack a mole.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
It seems so silly, you have a legally binding contract that they aren't fulfilling. Get a lawyer, make Owned pay for the lawyer fees and whatever they owe you. You can't lose...
Costs for getting a lawyer, and even getting the case started will generally cost more than the money that's in question.
This is a case where any lawyer could do it for you. You could really just pay a really cheap lawyer for this, it's not that complicated. Even if he's bad, he'll be good enough for this.
Does Owned even has a US branch to serve? From my understanding, they are in Australia and I don't know if they have a local(as in the US) office.
On January 19 2013 07:55 Yamaeda wrote: Yes, a lawer is quite expensive, but seeing that so many are missing money maybe some could group up for some joint or class act case? /Y
If there is an Austrian lawyer who is also an SC2 fan and was rich, he could offer to buy Destiny's and everyone else's claim on Owned.tv from at a reasonably large discount. Give Destiny 20% of what he is owned, in exchange get the claim on OwnedTV and hope they actually have enough money to make that worth it.
Anyway -- all the lawyers on here who are SC2 should get together and create a generic contract for both streamers and pros pro bono. And players need to make sure that they sign contracts with entities that have assets and that players can reach those assets.
On January 19 2013 07:55 Yamaeda wrote: Yes, a lawer is quite expensive, but seeing that so many are missing money maybe some could group up for some joint or class act case? /Y
If there is an Austrian lawyer who is also an SC2 fan and was rich, he could offer to buy Destiny's and everyone else's claim on Owned.tv from at a reasonably large discount. Give Destiny 20% of what he is owned, in exchange get the claim on OwnedTV and hope they actually have enough money to make that worth it.
Anyway -- all the lawyers on here who are SC2 should get together and create a generic contract for both streamers and pros pro bono. And players need to make sure that they sign contracts with entities that have assets and that players can reach those assets.
and subject themselves to malpractice lawsuits if things go south? nah.
On January 19 2013 07:03 FXO.Slavik wrote: to make things clear, as i see that iam added to the op, in the end, i got paid by own3d full amount, though after a long time.
I think this should be added to the OP.
To the lawyer discussion: we don't know the specific text of the contract. There might be a clause regarding payout time and/or more detail regarding the sponsored event. We just don't know. And I certainly won't take Destiny's word for it. I never take anyone's word for serious that has pics of his dick on the internet.
I hate streaming because you get to see guys who are basically cunts (KingKongor for example) that they dont care about their viewers and only for the moneyz. Not saying there arent any good people out there but seeing this kongor douche having so many viewers after all the hate he brings on them and they keep paying etc... makes me sick.
On January 19 2013 07:03 FXO.Slavik wrote: to make things clear, as i see that iam added to the op, in the end, i got paid by own3d full amount, though after a long time.
I think this should be added to the OP.
To the lawyer discussion: we don't know the specific text of the contract. There might be a clause regarding payout time and/or more detail regarding the sponsored event. We just don't know. And I certainly won't take Destiny's word for it. I never take anyone's word for serious that has pics of his dick on the internet.
Realistically I doubt there are more than a couple of people in this thread who don't have pictures of their dicks floating around on the internet.
On January 19 2013 07:55 Yamaeda wrote: Yes, a lawer is quite expensive, but seeing that so many are missing money maybe some could group up for some joint or class act case? /Y
If there is an Austrian lawyer who is also an SC2 fan and was rich, he could offer to buy Destiny's and everyone else's claim on Owned.tv from at a reasonably large discount. Give Destiny 20% of what he is owned, in exchange get the claim on OwnedTV and hope they actually have enough money to make that worth it.
Anyway -- all the lawyers on here who are SC2 should get together and create a generic contract for both streamers and pros pro bono. And players need to make sure that they sign contracts with entities that have assets and that players can reach those assets.
I'm not sure the 'no-cure-no-pay' system is legal in Austria, AFAIK in The Netherlands it is illegal for a lawyer to collect a certain % of the damages in a lawsuit.
This seems like a very straightforward contract case though, but I don't know if there's money to be collected from something that seems to be an insolvent company, run by individuals who're (apparently) Russian, which would increase the nr. of country suit needs to be filed...
Maybe there are too many americans here wanting to sue left and right here as they do over the atlantic, but can't you employ a debt collection agency to collect it for you? They charge a percent of the fee owned, but they usually have the muscle to collect small stuff like this. (it's their job doing so, they are employed by video rentals etc.) If your legal stuff is right that should be a cheaper option than a lawyer and suing for fraud. I would at least consider talking to them. If there are as many getting owed as it seems, you could even talk to one together and they could be interested. (preferably in austria where they are located)
This is what I would do if it was located here in Norway, but I should guess it's something similar in Austria, more so than a comparison to the US system.
because its not reduced to a judgment, the "debt" is not very valuable. if you were able to find a debt collection agency to take it, they would likely offer to pay pennies on the dollar. still better than nothing if you can find someone to buy the debt though.
I really hope Destiny and Dimaga get their money. Imagine how many hours they "worked". Spending all those hours for nothing? Imagine if they worked a regular job for that long. Would be a LOT more money too.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
It seems so silly, you have a legally binding contract that they aren't fulfilling. Get a lawyer, make Owned pay for the lawyer fees and whatever they owe you. You can't lose...
Costs for getting a lawyer, and even getting the case started will generally cost more than the money that's in question.
This is a case where any lawyer could do it for you. You could really just pay a really cheap lawyer for this, it's not that complicated. Even if he's bad, he'll be good enough for this.
Does Owned even has a US branch to serve? From my understanding, they are in Australia and I don't know if they have a local(as in the US) office.
I'm assuming that since Destiny is American and the contract was to be performed in America, that would be enough to get a US court to take it. I can't know for sure without seeing the contract and knowing more.
On January 19 2013 08:08 Sub40APM wrote: Anyway -- all the lawyers on here who are SC2 should get together and create a generic contract for both streamers and pros pro bono. And players need to make sure that they sign contracts with entities that have assets and that players can reach those assets.
I'd be happy to if there were a few pros and a few team managers that were willing to sit down and talk about problematic areas that tend to arise.
On January 19 2013 09:23 Canucklehead wrote: If own3d is broke, what good will lawsuits do? Even if you win, how are you going to divide $0 b/w everyone?
On January 19 2013 09:23 Canucklehead wrote: If own3d is broke, what good will lawsuits do? Even if you win, how are you going to divide $0 b/w everyone?
depends on the government, local bankruptcy laws, and who technically gets sued (and if a business, what they're registered as). But since we know Own3d has some infrastructure, forcing them into bankruptcy would force them to liquidate those assets and pay out what they can.
On January 19 2013 09:23 Canucklehead wrote: If own3d is broke, what good will lawsuits do? Even if you win, how are you going to divide $0 b/w everyone?
On January 19 2013 09:23 Canucklehead wrote: If own3d is broke, what good will lawsuits do? Even if you win, how are you going to divide $0 b/w everyone?
On January 19 2013 09:23 Canucklehead wrote: If own3d is broke, what good will lawsuits do? Even if you win, how are you going to divide $0 b/w everyone?
Jailtime! :D:D:D
revive debtor's prisons!!
We could just send them all to Australia.
Screw that man, we dont even like genuine refugees, let alove convicts!
On January 19 2013 08:29 ffswowsucks wrote: I hate streaming because you get to see guys who are basically cunts (KingKongor for example) that they dont care about their viewers and only for the moneyz. Not saying there arent any good people out there but seeing this kongor douche having so many viewers after all the hate he brings on them and they keep paying etc... makes me sick.
people choose to watch if theyre dumb enough to be entertained by being pissed off and abused why stop them?
Athene (also a streamer on Own3D along with others on AtheneLive) has sparked a big debate here. If Own3D falls, this could give Twitch a monopoly, which Athene doesn't want.
After careful consideration, I am gonna stick it out with own3d.tv unless it just completely crashes. Hell, wish they would of let me know what the problems were sooner. I am not heartless though, i feel pity, and I have friends in own3d.tv. May of screwed my RL up a tad, but sometimes I can be a bit soft.
Good Luck Own3d.tv
Don't watch League but Ethene you make a lot of sense here. Its never good when there are no competetors on the market. :p
On January 19 2013 08:29 ffswowsucks wrote: I hate streaming because you get to see guys who are basically cunts (KingKongor for example) that they dont care about their viewers and only for the moneyz. Not saying there arent any good people out there but seeing this kongor douche having so many viewers after all the hate he brings on them and they keep paying etc... makes me sick.
people choose to watch if theyre dumb enough to be entertained by being pissed off and abused why stop them?
You're right. Haha. I don't understand what's the problem. Even if the croud seems to not like the stream. They never leave. I think they just want drama. Honestly.
I think the streaming business would be a good venture for some of the bigger gaming companies like MLG or EG. It'd be a solid source of income for those sponsorship based companies
It cracks me up that now all of a sudden all these other streamers pipe in saying they haven't or hadn't been paid either. Destiny breached his contract (albeit by twoish weeks) to inform the public and kudos to him, but good grief, if this was my livelihood, I'd let someone in the media know, such as Slasher, even if it was under conditions of anonymity that this was going on. Sometimes public perception is all the attorney you need.
On January 19 2013 11:53 ParkwayDrive wrote: stop feeding destiny the troll. he could easily go to twitch if he wanted.
hes not good at games and now hes desperate for money. this kid is sad and you are all sadder for feeding him
Yes because not being paid for work is getting trolled. No, that's called bullshit. You like working so much for free then please go do my job for me and I'll accept the paycheck.
On January 19 2013 11:53 ParkwayDrive wrote: stop feeding destiny the troll. he could easily go to twitch if he wanted.
hes not good at games and now hes desperate for money. this kid is sad and you are all sadder for feeding him
This sort of post really is not needed here. A lot of people dislike Destiny, hell, even I do not like him. But this is not about Destiny specifically, this is about Own3d and the financial troubles that seem to stem from them.
Also, when you have kids, a family, and your income is not the greatest in the world, it makes it much more difficult to simply go to X or Y when Z supposedly pays better. Unfortnately, when Z does not actually fall through with their commitments, and your family can actually get hurt over it, of course you will speak out.
So drop the attitude and pay attention to what actually matters here (and if you are into Esports at all, this should matter a whole lot).
On January 19 2013 12:02 ParkwayDrive wrote: he plays games at a low level in front of a young audience with nothing better to do. how is that work and deserving of money?
you're an embarrassment to those of us who legitimately dislike him.
On January 19 2013 11:53 ParkwayDrive wrote: stop feeding destiny the troll. he could easily go to twitch if he wanted.
hes not good at games and now hes desperate for money. this kid is sad and you are all sadder for feeding him
This sort of post really is not needed here. A lot of people dislike Destiny, hell, even I do not like him. But this is not about Destiny specifically, this is about Own3d and the financial troubles that seem to stem from them.
Also, when you have kids, a family, and your income is not the greatest in the world, it makes it much more difficult to simply go to X or Y when Z supposedly pays better. Unfortnately, when Z does not actually fall through with their commitments, and your family can actually get hurt over it, of course you will speak out.
So drop the attitude and pay attention to what actually matters here (and if you are into Esports at all, this should matter a whole lot).
On January 19 2013 12:02 ParkwayDrive wrote: he plays games at a low level in front of a young audience with nothing better to do. how is that work and deserving of money?
you're an embarrassment to those of us who legitimately dislike him.
Agreed. Most people here hate Destiny, but we see what own3d is doing and it's wrong.
On January 19 2013 11:53 ParkwayDrive wrote: stop feeding destiny the troll. he could easily go to twitch if he wanted.
hes not good at games and now hes desperate for money. this kid is sad and you are all sadder for feeding him
This sort of post really is not needed here. A lot of people dislike Destiny, hell, even I do not like him. But this is not about Destiny specifically, this is about Own3d and the financial troubles that seem to stem from them.
Also, when you have kids, a family, and your income is not the greatest in the world, it makes it much more difficult to simply go to X or Y when Z supposedly pays better. Unfortnately, when Z does not actually fall through with their commitments, and your family can actually get hurt over it, of course you will speak out.
So drop the attitude and pay attention to what actually matters here (and if you are into Esports at all, this should matter a whole lot).
then the title of the thread should be changed
Or, instead of being trigger happy in attacking Destiny, you focus on the real implications of the situation. It needs a Mod to change the title anyway, and the Op even asked for it to be changed. Regardless, Destiny brought all of this into the light (more so than it has been done in the past), and the primary focus was on his post.
You accuse him of being a troll and yet you are the one coming off as one... sigh.
yes its sad that own3d isnt paying all the real talent that uses them but cmon we play video games, lets all be thankful and not be money whores for a change. things will work out when you do stuff you love. and second i think its in the best interest for all eports if destiny disappeared and i felt like this was a moment to voice my opinion on that. thank you for your time.
On January 19 2013 11:53 ParkwayDrive wrote: stop feeding destiny the troll. he could easily go to twitch if he wanted.
hes not good at games and now hes desperate for money. this kid is sad and you are all sadder for feeding him
This sort of post really is not needed here. A lot of people dislike Destiny, hell, even I do not like him. But this is not about Destiny specifically, this is about Own3d and the financial troubles that seem to stem from them.
Also, when you have kids, a family, and your income is not the greatest in the world, it makes it much more difficult to simply go to X or Y when Z supposedly pays better. Unfortnately, when Z does not actually fall through with their commitments, and your family can actually get hurt over it, of course you will speak out.
So drop the attitude and pay attention to what actually matters here (and if you are into Esports at all, this should matter a whole lot).
then the title of the thread should be changed
The OP has quotes nine other notable figures weighing in with similar grievances, and there are more in the thread, and there is also a request to change the title in the OP to "Own3d not paying it's streamers?"
You should at least read the OP before posting in the thread. That way you can avoid shoving your foot in your mouth up to the knee, instead of saying inane comments like "stop feeding the destiny troll", which is completely irrelevant to the actual issue at hand.
On January 19 2013 12:24 ParkwayDrive wrote: yes its sad that own3d isnt paying all the real talent that uses them but cmon we play video games, lets all be thankful and not be money whores for a change. things will work out when you do stuff you love. and second i think its in the best interest for all eports if destiny disappeared and i felt like this was a moment to voice my opinion on that. thank you for your time.
It's not about being money whores or about playing a video game. Money owed should be money paid. It's straight forward.
On January 19 2013 12:24 ParkwayDrive wrote: yes its sad that own3d isnt paying all the real talent that uses them but cmon we play video games, lets all be thankful and not be money whores for a change. things will work out when you do stuff you love. and second i think its in the best interest for all eports if destiny disappeared and i felt like this was a moment to voice my opinion on that. thank you for your time.
So why does playing video game make us not entitled to the same amount of money that other streamer gets? This is not being money whore, it getting back the money you deserved and were promised. If destiny demanded more money from streaming then that different story but he was denied money he was promised and there are also evidence of other people having the same problem. Things will not work out if you do the stuff you love because this is evidence of exactly what can happen. You can have your own opinion on destiny but saying that we dont deserved the money we were promised because it just from video game is dumb.
Mentioning the word Destiny on TL is akin to yelling "BOMB!" on an airplane. No matter what your intention, it isn't going to end well.
People's brains cease to function at the mention of Destiny. As if they were robots unplugged from their power source, they fidget, sparks fly, and the lights go out. Real conversation ceases and in its stead nonconstructive hate emanates.
On January 19 2013 07:08 Zorkmid wrote: John Clark just hit the nail on the head in ChanmanV's show.
There isn't enough money flowing through eSports for a large number of people to be able to sustain themselves from it.
This point may be accurate but isn't really relevant to this specific discussion. Owned promises to pay streamers a proportion of the money they receive for adverts. This is simply a matter of passing on the money once Owned themselves have received it, not difficult at all and should be pretty straight forward as each streamer receives an amount based on how popular they are. The additional promises that Owned made in regards to extra money to host tournaments etc on a stream was a decision that Owned themselves made and if they didn't have the cash to go through with it (which I suspect they did not) then they should not have made the promise in the first place. This isnt about generating additional money or whether esports is big enough to sustain a large population, it is about a company making promises that they cannot uphold and not complying with the contractual obligations they have imposed on themselves (again we arent 100% sure on the specific clauses of the contract but it is safe to say that the aforementioned would be in there somewhere, unless Destiny is lying).
On January 19 2013 12:02 ParkwayDrive wrote: he plays games at a low level in front of a young audience with nothing better to do. how is that work and deserving of money?
You are not entitled to make that call for everyone else. The public as a whole deems what is and what is not worthy of there time and thus what they watch. If advertisers then want to tap into that market and pay streamers for it then that is there decision. Just because you do not like the content doesn't mean it should not be rewarded.
On January 19 2013 06:21 grockey wrote: The only reason I like own2d better ATM is because my little bro used my comp to post porn links in chat channels on Twitch and now I'm IP banned. I've contacted Twitch but they won't help me. I wish I wouldn't have paid for subbing to channels if I wasn't going to be able to use the service.
lol you deserved it
also changing IPs is really difficult, i seriously doubt they would ban a range of IPs for something so minor
I really wish it wasn't true. I can log onto my account when I'm at other places... but it's a pain in the butt that I can't even watch from my own home.
It seems that if we want esports to become bigger we need pro's to feel safer with their income. Therefore I think a median needs to be established between the players and streaming/tournament functions. A legal entity that will regulate contracts, and pursue any contractual agreements. The players would probably have to give a portion of their earnings to these "lawyers". However the money stream for esports is borderline good, and not very consistent. Hopefully one of these organisations will emerge and take the risk. Many sports work this way on their way up in popularity. It will be a defining point in esports if these entities become a reality.
Except, I would have used a lot more straight lines instead of exclamation ! if my keyboard had them. If you're using normal letters so that it's readable easily anyway,it defeats the purpose of 1337. 0\/\/|\|3!).7\/
I wish Destiny came back to SC2. I really enjoyed watching him play. I think he was a really good player. And he was good at explaning his decisions to the stream.
On January 19 2013 23:08 CrtBalorda wrote: God so many Destiny haters. All he did was switch to another game. Geeez, give me a break.
I think it is a little more than that.
Such as the controversy with him being removed from complexity awhile ago. Not to mention his loose lipped attitude has got him into trouble. ( Look up Destiny's Reddit post regarding him leaving Quantic ). Lastly his latest stint that caused a major stink was the whole him showing nudes to some other chick online. He pissed off some girl and she had the passwords to his twitter. She then proceeded to post the "manhood" there which just led to a lot of nonsense.
All in all Destiny does not have the greatest image/reputation but he is a smart individual. To me he just makes poor choices that put him in a tough spot.
As for the OP, regarding own3d issue is a big deal within the esports industry I believe we need to filter out as many shady establishments as we can. In the real world that is retail/IT/human services you just cannot fulfill your contractual agreements as they can cost you a lot of money. Given the fact that these streaming providers are trying to pioneer something here means they have first mover's advantage. Unfortunately for the consumer which is the stream and the end user being the viewers get boned here. Overall poor quality and lack of support for the streamer lead to a more frustrated esports industry as a whole. If we want the world to view esports as something that is workable/functional then we got to step it up a notch. Just avoid own3d future streamer's and hopefully the guys behind it will crumple to their lack there of promises.
On January 18 2013 11:07 Lord Lunga wrote: Obvious question: Why isn't Destiny suing them?
Ya exactly why make the post.... I think he just makes noise. Just sue them not like we on to can do anything.
Have you considered the fact that not being paid for 5 months may not have left him in a financial position to hire a lawyer and pursue legal action, or that Owned is based in Austria, causing such pursuit to be much more difficult?
Lots of lawyers will work out plans with you, you can take out loans. The point is there is a way for him to get a lawyer if he wants. I may be judging him unfairly, but the way he has acted throughout his esports career tells me he is a whiney bitch.
On January 19 2013 12:24 ParkwayDrive wrote: yes its sad that own3d isnt paying all the real talent that uses them but cmon we play video games, lets all be thankful and not be money whores for a change. things will work out when you do stuff you love. and second i think its in the best interest for all eports if destiny disappeared and i felt like this was a moment to voice my opinion on that. thank you for your time.
This mindset is exactly what has gotten us to this point. We have accepted that what we spend our time doing and what others are willing to pay for is somehow just a 'game'. I agree that we play games... but twitch and own3d, leagues, investors and fans are willing to pay for the content and at that point this 'game we play' can become a business. I, myself, have been one of the worst at falling into this mindset.. and even worse, the mindset that "its 'just eSports'... nothing that I can do about not being paid and I really just do this because I love it... so who cares".
I am not advocating that we all go out and try to get 'what's ours' or worry only about the money..because that too has posioned this industry... but there is a fine line and we all just need to be better and understanding that and making the most of each situation.
We are a very young industry, but at the same time, we have allowed ourselves to believe that all we will ever be is a hobby and that is just simply not true. If we do not start to build more structure and put more 'business' in this industry... others will use up our resources and we will die off ... again.
It's not nice that own3d aren't paying Destiny. True.
I'm curious, though; why is this in the Starcraft 2 section? League of Legends or General would make more sense. It's been a long time since Destiny stopped streaming SC2.
On January 20 2013 01:22 dUTtrOACh wrote: It's not nice that own3d aren't paying Destiny. True.
I'm curious, though; why is this in the Starcraft 2 section? League of Legends or General would make more sense. It's been a long time since Destiny stopped streaming SC2.
Because destiny is not the only victim? A lot of sc2 players are not getting payed either. It is a general concern.
On January 20 2013 01:22 dUTtrOACh wrote: It's not nice that own3d aren't paying Destiny. True.
I'm curious, though; why is this in the Starcraft 2 section? League of Legends or General would make more sense. It's been a long time since Destiny stopped streaming SC2.
Did you read the thread or did you just see "destiny" in the title and decide to flame
On January 20 2013 01:22 dUTtrOACh wrote: It's not nice that own3d aren't paying Destiny. True.
I'm curious, though; why is this in the Starcraft 2 section? League of Legends or General would make more sense. It's been a long time since Destiny stopped streaming SC2.
Because destiny is not the only victim? A lot of sc2 players are not getting payed either. It is a general concern.
So what you are saying is that its in the Sc2 section because it s a GENERAL concern?
Anyway, its playing video games for money, imagine the hoops own3d has to jump through to get the money in the first place, most people shouldnt be suprised at the irregularity of the payments, but rather that they pay anyone anything.
I'm pretty depressed that people are focusing more on the person in question then the main idea in the OP. It's about Own3d.tv and how they are ripping off people. Yet, no one can get past "Okay, so I know we don't like Destiny here"... Come on, you all need to grow up.
On topic, i feel that Own3d.tv has completely disrespected their contracts with many people. It's one thing if its one person but this is many people coming out and saying that the company is being shady as hell. Own3d.tv deserves, in my opinion to go under, i don't even believe they should reorganize or restructure because i still think everyone would still look poorly on them. They apparently KNOW what they are doing and yet keep doing it, no restructuring is going to fix the fact that they are openly lying to their clients about money. Why the hell would anyone sign with them if he/she have mouths to feed at home? I feel bad for anyone who has to deal with that bullshit.
On January 20 2013 01:54 Catch]22 wrote: Anyway, its playing video games for money, imagine the hoops own3d has to jump through to get the money in the first place, most people shouldnt be suprised at the irregularity of the payments, but rather that they pay anyone anything.
There's an old internet axiom "someone will defend it"
Here people will happily defend terrible business practices in an industry they have zero experience in simply because they are salty that some people get paid to play videogames.
On January 20 2013 02:35 LOveRH wrote: I'm pretty depressed that people are focusing more on the person in question then the main idea in the OP. It's about Own3d.tv and how they are ripping off people. Yet, no one can get past "Okay, so I know we don't like Destiny here"... Come on, you all need to grow up.
On topic, i feel that Own3d.tv has completely disrespected their contracts with many people. It's one thing if its one person but this is many people coming out and saying that the company is being shady as hell. Own3d.tv deserves, in my opinion to go under, i don't even believe they should reorganize or restructure because i still think everyone would still look poorly on them. They apparently KNOW what they are doing and yet keep doing it, no restructuring is going to fix the fact that they are openly lying to their clients about money. Why the hell would anyone sign with them if he/she have mouths to feed at home? I feel bad for anyone who has to deal with that bullshit.
I think both the issues speak to the immaturity of everyone involved with eSports.
From the community side, we have too many people focusing on the person (who frankly should be thanked for even breaking this story) instead of the content.
From the business side, we seem to have a lack of robust operating procedures and instead have too many questionable business practices.
And it seems strange that the journalists don't do an adequate job investigating (maybe because they get berated when they break stories).
There just seems to be too much optimistic cheerleading (yay esports) and not enough administrative problem solving.
On January 20 2013 02:35 LOveRH wrote: I'm pretty depressed that people are focusing more on the person in question then the main idea in the OP. It's about Own3d.tv and how they are ripping off people. Yet, no one can get past "Okay, so I know we don't like Destiny here"... Come on, you all need to grow up.
On topic, i feel that Own3d.tv has completely disrespected their contracts with many people. It's one thing if its one person but this is many people coming out and saying that the company is being shady as hell. Own3d.tv deserves, in my opinion to go under, i don't even believe they should reorganize or restructure because i still think everyone would still look poorly on them. They apparently KNOW what they are doing and yet keep doing it, no restructuring is going to fix the fact that they are openly lying to their clients about money. Why the hell would anyone sign with them if he/she have mouths to feed at home? I feel bad for anyone who has to deal with that bullshit.
I think both the issues speak to the immaturity of everyone involved with eSports.
From the community side, we have too many people focusing on the person (who frankly should be thanked for even breaking this story) instead of the content.
From the business side, we seem to have a lack of robust operating procedures and instead have too many questionable business practices.
And it seems strange that the journalists don't do an adequate job investigating (maybe because they get berated when they break stories).
There just seems to be too much optimistic cheerleading (yay esports) and not enough administrative problem solving.
Well the age of our community is pretty young its pretty safe to say 13-26 is the age group. Players haven't had to deal with size of our community and the bussiness aspect because no one saw it getting as big as it is. The fact that you can hide behind an account on the internet means stupid things get said. My thing is there are options for people invovled to deal with things privately, everytime we make grand posts and rally the masses it hurts esports. There is no legal body to protect players from things. But even so a matter of not getting paid by so and so is a private matter and shouldn't really be debated by the public about this.
I hope people tuned in to the ChanmanV discussion on stream yesterday with Dima, Destiny, Husky and friends, as they gave some good information. And if you didn't tune in, I better hope you had a better reason than "I'm not going to tune in to a stream with Destiny in it."
On January 20 2013 06:27 NumberFive wrote: I hope people tuned in to the ChanmanV discussion on stream yesterday with Dima, Destiny, Husky and friends, as they gave some good information. And if you didn't tune in, I better hope you had a better reason than "I'm not going to tune in to a stream with Destiny in it."
how about the stream was during normal work hours?
On January 20 2013 06:27 NumberFive wrote: I hope people tuned in to the ChanmanV discussion on stream yesterday with Dima, Destiny, Husky and friends, as they gave some good information. And if you didn't tune in, I better hope you had a better reason than "I'm not going to tune in to a stream with Destiny in it."
On January 20 2013 06:27 NumberFive wrote: I hope people tuned in to the ChanmanV discussion on stream yesterday with Dima, Destiny, Husky and friends, as they gave some good information. And if you didn't tune in, I better hope you had a better reason than "I'm not going to tune in to a stream with Destiny in it."
how about the stream was during normal work hours?
Wow people like you and I who work during during the day... damn us for 'hurting' eSports by not watching that stream.
I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
I'm not ignoring his predicaments regarding the payments, that's another story. Working in McDonalds is 99.999% paid at fixed interval 100% of the time. While streaming is not, sometimes you get money, sometimes its not enough. And this is where I stand, using the family and supporting a child as an excuse is not acceptable to me. We all have our own excuses, its like being caught by the highway police for over speeding, always lame excuses - "it's an emergency, I didn't see the limit sign, I'm late for work... blah blah blah"
It's not like the money coming from streaming is guaranteed to be sufficient, if its the money is yours and yours alone, sure. But for family reasons, and mouths to feed to your family, that is very sensitive matters to me.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
I'm not ignoring his predicaments regarding the payments, that's another story. Working in McDonalds is 99.999% paid at fixed interval 100% of the time. While streaming is not, sometimes you get money, sometimes its not enough. And this is where I stand, using the family and supporting a child as an excuse is not acceptable to me. We all have our own excuses, its like being caught by the highway police for over speeding, always lame excuses - "it's an emergency, I didn't see the limit sign, I'm late for work... blah blah blah"
It's not like the money coming from streaming is guaranteed to be sufficient, if its the money is yours and yours alone, sure. But for family reasons, and mouths to feed to your family, that is very sensitive matters to me.
ooookkkkkk, so anyways, streaming to support yourself is perfectly fine especially when you have something in writing to ensure payment. Streaming also has the potential to pay a lot more in a year than working at mcdonalds can, so he could potentially support himself more doing something he likes with streaming. It's an attractive option if you can get a good offer and support from the site you stream from. You don't get the convenience of knowing someone will completely violate the terms they made with you when talking about pay and such.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
I'm not ignoring his predicaments regarding the payments, that's another story. Working in McDonalds is 99.999% paid at fixed interval 100% of the time. While streaming is not, sometimes you get money, sometimes its not enough. And this is where I stand, using the family and supporting a child as an excuse is not acceptable to me. We all have our own excuses, its like being caught by the highway police for over speeding, always lame excuses - "it's an emergency, I didn't see the limit sign, I'm late for work... blah blah blah"
It's not like the money coming from streaming is guaranteed to be sufficient, if its the money is yours and yours alone, sure. But for family reasons, and mouths to feed to your family, that is very sensitive matters to me.
He isn't using his family as an excuse for anything, though...
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
As someone who recently had a (much smaller) delay in getting paid for work I did at a startup, the streamers involved should not have to justify their finances to you or anyone else in order to get paid money they are owed. My former employer flat out said to me "pfft, you can put off a tmobile bill for like two months" when I told him that I needed the check ASAP to keep my phone service on. Guess what happened? My phone service got shut off before I got paid and I almost didn't have enough money for food.
Both parties agreed to a contract. Destiny does work (attracting eyeballs to ads), Own3d pays him at an agreed rate. What happens to the money after that is none of their concern. It doesn't matter if Destiny uses the money to do lines of cocaine off of his son's ass, they are still contractually obliged to pay him. Period. There is no judgement of his choice of work or lifestyle in the payment terms of the contract.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Working for money and then getting screwed over by a company not paying you? Wow, how irresponsible of him.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
Once again what you are saying about streaming is true about any form of self employment.
The whole argument smacks of jealousy to me. You think that because he enjoys his job its not a real job. That's not how the world works. You ever hear a professional poker player in an interview? Poker is their JOB. Streaming is Destiny's job. It fulfills every requirement of a job. It takes time and earns money - therefore: JOB.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job.
He had a contract. I'ts a job. Period. Had this contract been fulfilled, he would have been able to sustain his family. Neither of the things you brought up actually matter in Destiny's case, because they never became an issue. Who knows, maybe he was looking for a job besides streaming, considering his financial issues, but couldn't find one. Ever thought about that?
May I also point out, that you know jack and shit about the financial security of streaming?
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
Once again what you are saying about streaming is true about any form of self employment.
The whole argument smacks of jealousy to me. You think that because he enjoys his job its not a real job. That's not how the world works. You ever hear a professional poker player in an interview? Poker is their JOB. Streaming is Destiny's job. It fulfills every requirement of a job. It takes time and earns money - therefore: JOB.
You want to make an argument that streaming is a job, fine. Streaming is a job. Now accept this as fact. Streaming is not a safe stable source if income. I only have an issue with the fact that he brings his kid into this. If he wanted a job, to secure a financial future for his family, he should have looked elsewhere outside of esports. Btw by your classification of a job Destiny has been out of a job for 9 months
Again I don't understand why anyone used Owned in the first place. I do think they should pay their streamers, but they wont they will go into bankruptcy. From his article they're even wasting time/money looking for a legal way to not pay their streamers.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job.
He had a contract. I'ts a job. Period. Had this contract been fulfilled, he would have been able to sustain his family. Neither of the things you brought up actually matter in Destiny's case, because they never became an issue. Who knows, maybe he was looking for a job besides streaming, considering his financial issues, but couldn't find one. Ever thought about that?
May I also point out, that you know jack and shit about the financial security of streaming?
I believe I just pointed out many valid points about the financial security of streaming. Here is the best one. What happens if Destiny no longer has a following? How much money from commercials would he get? How much is 60% of $0?
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
K, it is a job. What was his hourly rate since August? I think 0 Dollars an hour is less than minimum wage. Again maybe I didn't make my point clear. If his sole purpose in life was to make enough money to raise a family, and not have to worry about whether he would be able to work the next day, he would not be streaming.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
Noobskills the reason people are getting annoyed at your answer is simple: The way you describe streaming is the same as any other form of self employment. It has irregular income and is not secure. Some people are self employed parents, who want to bring up a family in a good financial situation, and you are saying that this is a bad thing. Therefore, people will take offense to that. Can you see what i'm saying? I know i'm kinda taking this off topic, but i just wanted to explain to you why people will feel strongly against what you are saying.
On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote: I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this: Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible.
This is an extraordinarily ignorant statement and simply wrong.
Let me elaborate: Bill Amend, artist of FoxTrot, is Self Employed and is a parent. Both Gabe and Tycho of Penny Arcade are Self Employed and parents. Most actors who have children are self employed.
Self-employment is only risky if you are bad at what you do, or are abysmal with your money. Yes, streamers can possibly lose their ability to complete their job, but that doesn't make what they do for money "irresponsible" or "not a job".
I went to an art school, many of my former professors are no longer teaching, as they are able to contract their work out and earn enough money to not only survive, but also to keep their families alive, healthy, and happy.
Just because you don't know many instances where something exists, doesn't mean it does not exist.
EDIT: I'm keeping this up for the other guy. If you're honestly being sarcastic, then I apologize for my... aggressive statements.
On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote: I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this: Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible.
This is an extraordinarily ignorant statement and simply wrong.
On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote: I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this: Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible.
This is an extraordinarily ignorant statement and simply wrong.
It was sarcastic... i gotta stop my sarcastic comments on here man check out the following 2 posts i made...
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
what he said is true, if you are just starting a family, esports is a very risky investment to make. I certainly wouldn't do it, and I doubt many others would either. It is a brand new industry, full of risks and holes.... and yes showing up to mcdonalds and flipping burgers is a more stable way to feed a child. He is just using his family, and his child to amplify his shitstorm on own3d. Both parties involved are not very smart
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
what he said is true, if you are just starting a family, esports is a very risky investment to make. I certainly wouldn't do it, and I doubt many others would either. It is a brand new industry, full of risks and holes.... and yes showing up to mcdonalds and flipping burgers is a more stable way to feed a child. He is just using his family, and his child to amplify his shitstorm on own3d. Both parties involved are not very smart
If you have years of data showing that you are able to work in any field and make x amount of dollars on average, which is either well above what you're estimating your expenses will be or have sufficient savings in order to take losses that may occur, there is absolutely nothing too risky about making a living in eSports.
The guy has been streaming for over 2 years and has plenty of data showing what he is making, what he should be making, and estimates on what he lost due to not being paid. There is nothing "not very smart" about what he's doing in the least, and there's nothing sensational about his wording.
He has a child, he needs to support that child, and his contracted agreement with a group was supposed to ensure that at the least he would be paid for the job that he completed. If he saw that his streaming would not be enough, there's nothing to say that he wouldn't have gotten that job at mcdonalds, but that's not the case. He made enough through ad revenue to support his family, assuming he was paid by his employer. He is bringing up the point about his child simply to show that this is not just him being affected here, and to create empathy (which is less sensational, and more honest and effective imo).
On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote: I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this: Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible.
Precisely..
I could care less what happens to Destiny as a "professional" gamer. What I see is a man being irresponsible putting his kid at risk and using "the family" as an excuse.
On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote: I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this: Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible.
Precisely..
I could care less what happens to Destiny as a "professional" gamer. What I see is a man being irresponsible putting his kid at risk and using "the family" as an excuse.
It sucks what happened to him, but is it not something he expected? To feed his family off playing a video game? Sorry but we don't live in the perfect nerdballer world where there are schools you can apply to for video games.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
Once again what you are saying about streaming is true about any form of self employment.
The whole argument smacks of jealousy to me. You think that because he enjoys his job its not a real job. That's not how the world works. You ever hear a professional poker player in an interview? Poker is their JOB. Streaming is Destiny's job. It fulfills every requirement of a job. It takes time and earns money - therefore: JOB.
You want to make an argument that streaming is a job, fine. Streaming is a job. Now accept this as fact. Streaming is not a safe stable source if income. I only have an issue with the fact that he brings his kid into this. If he wanted a job, to secure a financial future for his family, he should have looked elsewhere outside of esports. Btw by your classification of a job Destiny has been out of a job for 9 months
Again I don't understand why anyone used Owned in the first place. I do think they should pay their streamers, but they wont they will go into bankruptcy. From his article they're even wasting time/money looking for a legal way to not pay their streamers.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job.
He had a contract. I'ts a job. Period. Had this contract been fulfilled, he would have been able to sustain his family. Neither of the things you brought up actually matter in Destiny's case, because they never became an issue. Who knows, maybe he was looking for a job besides streaming, considering his financial issues, but couldn't find one. Ever thought about that?
May I also point out, that you know jack and shit about the financial security of streaming?
I believe I just pointed out many valid points about the financial security of streaming. Here is the best one. What happens if Destiny no longer has a following? How much money from commercials would he get? How much is 60% of $0?
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
K, it is a job. What was his hourly rate since August? I think 0 Dollars an hour is less than minimum wage. Again maybe I didn't make my point clear. If his sole purpose in life was to make enough money to raise a family, and not have to worry about whether he would be able to work the next day, he would not be streaming.
His rate since august is somewhere between $3000 and $7000 per month (per his statements on stream he's out between 15 and 35 thousand dollars). So taking even his low-ball amount into consideration, $3000 a month is what he should have been paid. Think of it this way, most places I've gotten jobs I've had to sign employment paperwork. These are my contracts. If my employer doesn't pay me I have the US Department of Labor to go to. If Destiny's employer doesn't pay him, he has to sue. Neither is less legitimate or less accurate, simply different ways to go about the same conclusion.
If you read the original post, you'd see that he DID bring this information up immediately, however because he had a contract he did not want to risk breaching it early. As long as you have savings enough to cover a delay in payment, if you honestly believe in the company and believe they will do the right thing, it might not be the most intelligent thing in the world but I don't fault them for being afraid or unsure about what consequences the breach of contract would create. When it got too bad, and he realized that he would have an issue if he was not paid, he left.
This may be an issue of naivete on the part of the streamers, but also remember that this is an incredibly young occupation, and there are certainly still kinks to work out. I'm sure if you were the first person doing whatever it is you do for a living you'd be extremely cautious about what decisions you make as well.
On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote: I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this: Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible.
Precisely..
I could care less what happens to Destiny as a "professional" gamer. What I see is a man being irresponsible putting his kid at risk and using "the family" as an excuse.
It sucks what happened to him, but is it not something he expected? To feed his family off playing a video game? Sorry but we don't live in the perfect nerdballer world where there are schools you can apply to for video games.
Do you expect to not get paid when you do a job and are told you will be paid?
Where is this shit coming from? This is no different from being any other kind of personality, writers, artists, athletes, hell even business owners.
"Hey mr. cruise, do this movie for us! We'll give you a signing bonus and royalties" "Hey mr. director, that sounds fantastic!" movie is released. 6 months goes by. "Hey mr. director, where's my royalty money? I've been trying to get my monthly payments for a long time!" "Hey mr. cruise, we will pay you next month!" another 6 months... "Hey mr. director, where's my royalty money? I've been trying to get my monthly payments for a long time!" "Hey mr. cruise, we will pay you next month!" etc.
What you guys are posting leads me to believe you'd say the same thing about mr. cruise.
"To feed his family off pretending to be someone else?"
This is entertainment. It's a risky profession to have in general, but that doesn't mean you should expect to be dicked around, and should believe that it would be acceptable for you to be.
I'm not the biggest fan of Destiny, especially since he basically started the whole "sky is falling" nonsense that SC2 is dying. However, this is some really shady stuff going on from own3d.tv and as someone who streams (all be it, at a very low level) I don't like seeing this kind of thing happen to anyone.
I'd be very interested to see own3d's side of what happened, if there is some information on what, if anything, they have said I'd love it if someone could point me in the right direction.
On January 20 2013 09:37 Jockmcplop wrote: I think what birdaholic is now trying to get at is this: Being self employed is irresponsible when you have a child because its a risk.
Which is why outside of Starcraft there aren't any self employed parents. Its just irresponsible.
Precisely..
I could care less what happens to Destiny as a "professional" gamer. What I see is a man being irresponsible putting his kid at risk and using "the family" as an excuse.
It sucks what happened to him, but is it not something he expected? To feed his family off playing a video game? Sorry but we don't live in the perfect nerdballer world where there are schools you can apply to for video games.
Do you expect to not get paid when you do a job and are told you will be paid?
Where is this shit coming from? This is no different from being any other kind of personality, writers, artists, athletes, hell even business owners.
"Hey mr. cruise, do this movie for us! We'll give you a signing bonus and royalties" "Hey mr. director, that sounds fantastic!" movie is released. 6 months goes by. "Hey mr. director, where's my royalty money? I've been trying to get my monthly payments for a long time!" "Hey mr. cruise, we will pay you next month!" another 6 months... "Hey mr. director, where's my royalty money? I've been trying to get my monthly payments for a long time!" "Hey mr. cruise, we will pay you next month!" etc.
What you guys are posting leads me to believe you'd say the same thing about mr. cruise.
"To feed his family off pretending to be someone else?"
This is entertainment. It's a risky profession to have in general, but that doesn't mean you should expect to be dicked around, and should believe that it would be acceptable for you to be.
No because the film industry is old as fuck, and you know the legitimate sources of income. Own3d is not reputable, and thats because the esports industry is new and we dont really know who the reputable are.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
yea i really don't understand all this self employment bullshit, its completely besides the point. Destiny switched to owned and brought them TONS of viewers and owned was not on time or did not pay destiny at all. Teams/organizations seem to have it way easier with contracts because they pretty much know that a player wont come after them legally.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
Once again what you are saying about streaming is true about any form of self employment.
The whole argument smacks of jealousy to me. You think that because he enjoys his job its not a real job. That's not how the world works. You ever hear a professional poker player in an interview? Poker is their JOB. Streaming is Destiny's job. It fulfills every requirement of a job. It takes time and earns money - therefore: JOB.
You want to make an argument that streaming is a job, fine. Streaming is a job. Now accept this as fact. Streaming is not a safe stable source if income. I only have an issue with the fact that he brings his kid into this. If he wanted a job, to secure a financial future for his family, he should have looked elsewhere outside of esports. Btw by your classification of a job Destiny has been out of a job for 9 months
Again I don't understand why anyone used Owned in the first place. I do think they should pay their streamers, but they wont they will go into bankruptcy. From his article they're even wasting time/money looking for a legal way to not pay their streamers.
On January 20 2013 09:48 thekaas wrote:
On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:
On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job.
He had a contract. I'ts a job. Period. Had this contract been fulfilled, he would have been able to sustain his family. Neither of the things you brought up actually matter in Destiny's case, because they never became an issue. Who knows, maybe he was looking for a job besides streaming, considering his financial issues, but couldn't find one. Ever thought about that?
May I also point out, that you know jack and shit about the financial security of streaming?
I believe I just pointed out many valid points about the financial security of streaming. Here is the best one. What happens if Destiny no longer has a following? How much money from commercials would he get? How much is 60% of $0?
On January 20 2013 09:53 ch33psh33p wrote:
On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:
On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
K, it is a job. What was his hourly rate since August? I think 0 Dollars an hour is less than minimum wage. Again maybe I didn't make my point clear. If his sole purpose in life was to make enough money to raise a family, and not have to worry about whether he would be able to work the next day, he would not be streaming.
His rate since august is somewhere between $3000 and $7000 per month (per his statements on stream he's out between 15 and 35 thousand dollars). So taking even his low-ball amount into consideration, $3000 a month is what he should have been paid. Think of it this way, most places I've gotten jobs I've had to sign employment paperwork. These are my contracts. If my employer doesn't pay me I have the US Department of Labor to go to. If Destiny's employer doesn't pay him, he has to sue. Neither is less legitimate or less accurate, simply different ways to go about the same conclusion.
If you read the original post, you'd see that he DID bring this information up immediately, however because he had a contract he did not want to risk breaching it early. As long as you have savings enough to cover a delay in payment, if you honestly believe in the company and believe they will do the right thing, it might not be the most intelligent thing in the world but I don't fault them for being afraid or unsure about what consequences the breach of contract would create. When it got too bad, and he realized that he would have an issue if he was not paid, he left.
This may be an issue of naivete on the part of the streamers, but also remember that this is an incredibly young occupation, and there are certainly still kinks to work out. I'm sure if you were the first person doing whatever it is you do for a living you'd be extremely cautious about what decisions you make as well.
If your employer doesn't pay you. You have those avenues. If Owned goes out of business, he has no real course of action. My point of every post was NOT that he doesn't deserve the money, it was that if he wants to bring up his kid in every argument there are safer ways to provide for a child. Yes, Owned is shady. Yes, he provided a service which he should get paid for. Yes, he was a moron for allowing this to go on. If a company like Owned who has a delayed payment schedule cannot get you your money on schedule there is obviously an issue.
I saw that he brought it up immediately. But think about the timetable of how they pay their streamers. 5 months he has been without payment. That should obviously be a red flag. If your boss doesn't pay you for 5 months what would you do? Again if he was unsure of what was in his contract again he made a mistake. And if he was still unsure why switch to twitch if that would open a loophole for them to not pay him?
Your last paragraph is dead on. But I want to add that it isn't that the industry is too young. It is that the consumer and the talent are too young and mostly uneducated. They have no clue what to do in any situation regarding their contracts, and breaches of their contracts. And with this young and uneducated group of people there will be sharks. Owned might turn out to be alright, but in many other situations the owners of these companies have profited highly while scamming their employees and consumers. The same thing happens over and over again with teams and tournaments who do the wrong thing, but again these gamers are unaware of how they should act and respond in these situations, so this scene will never change. Maybe, eventually when the pros of past grow up and form some sort of esports union this will be avoided, but none of these posts surprise me anymore.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
yea i really don't understand all this self employment bullshit, its completely besides the point. Destiny switched to owned and brought them TONS of viewers and owned was not on time or did not pay destiny at all. Teams/organizations seem to have it way easier with contracts because they pretty much know that a player wont come after them legally.
The self employment stuff has nothing to do with the issue at hand in the thread, which is that owned is a scam. I don't like Destiny, but he is right to bring this out to the public, regardless of how his reasons or how he chooses to make a living.
That being said, it's an interesting topic to discuss. Is it smart for someone to try to rely on streaming to raise a family? I feel bad for Destiny sometimes because I'm not sure he really has options. The side effect to his controversial personality which helps him to make money from streaming is that his name is all over the internet associated with lots racist slurs and stuff like that. I think finding employment that could really give him a stable livelihood would be pretty difficult if you consider that. Streaming really may be his best option, and even if I'm not a fan of him I hope esports remains stable and companies actually pay out so he can support his family. He's made a niche for himself, but in doing so has really cut a lot of options out of his life for the future.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
yea i really don't understand all this self employment bullshit, its completely besides the point. Destiny switched to owned and brought them TONS of viewers and owned was not on time or did not pay destiny at all. Teams/organizations seem to have it way easier with contracts because they pretty much know that a player wont come after them legally.
The self employment stuff has nothing to do with the issue at hand in the thread, which is that owned is a scam. I don't like Destiny, but he is right to bring this out to the public, regardless of how his reasons or how he chooses to make a living.
That being said, it's an interesting topic to discuss. Is it smart for someone to try to rely on streaming to raise a family? I feel bad for Destiny sometimes because I'm not sure he really has options. The side effect to his controversial personality which helps him to make money from streaming is that his name is all over the internet associated with lots racist slurs and stuff like that. I think finding employment that could really give him a stable livelihood would be pretty difficult if you consider that. Streaming really may be his best option, and even if I'm not a fan of him I hope esports remains stable and companies actually pay out so he can support his family. He's made a niche for himself, but in doing so has really cut a lot of options out of his life for the future.
The whole self-employment issue is irreverent. Because even though those who are self employed have similar risks to Destiny they are far reduced from what Destiny faces. They produce a known product that is commonplace in the market (in most situations). He streams games there are so many factors in his choice of an occupation that could result in him not being paid or even paid enough, that stating he is doing this for his family is a shame. He streams because the money is fast and good now. He streams because he likes to play video games. He doesn't have a real job because streaming is considerably easy. I really don't blame him. Owned is at fault, but he is playing video games because he wants to play video games.
Also I'm pretty sure in the past Destiny said somewhere that he held a normal job. I also think that his stream is more a show. Most people, even those with a crude sense of humor, racist ideals, even highly combative personalities will tune down their opinions at work and/or even tune them out. I'm sure he is capable of holding another job, he just prefers this one.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I didn't like or dislike pro gamers,but I started hating hate pro gamers when i got a real job last year. I mean they are messing up their own futures. Come on!, it is just really dumb. When i think about. Wow, you screwed yourself is this is your best effort at living life? Really? Go to college and try and educate yourself. Whatever happens to you is your own fault for choose this. Destiny tries to use his child as an excuse to get money. His family has nothing to do with the money it is his own fault for being a streamer. It comes with the packet so deal with it yourself.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
yea i really don't understand all this self employment bullshit, its completely besides the point. Destiny switched to owned and brought them TONS of viewers and owned was not on time or did not pay destiny at all. Teams/organizations seem to have it way easier with contracts because they pretty much know that a player wont come after them legally.
The self employment stuff has nothing to do with the issue at hand in the thread, which is that owned is a scam. I don't like Destiny, but he is right to bring this out to the public, regardless of how his reasons or how he chooses to make a living.
That being said, it's an interesting topic to discuss. Is it smart for someone to try to rely on streaming to raise a family? I feel bad for Destiny sometimes because I'm not sure he really has options. The side effect to his controversial personality which helps him to make money from streaming is that his name is all over the internet associated with lots racist slurs and stuff like that. I think finding employment that could really give him a stable livelihood would be pretty difficult if you consider that. Streaming really may be his best option, and even if I'm not a fan of him I hope esports remains stable and companies actually pay out so he can support his family. He's made a niche for himself, but in doing so has really cut a lot of options out of his life for the future.
The whole self-employment issue is irreverent. Because even though those who are self employed have similar risks to Destiny they are far reduced from what Destiny faces. They produce a known product that is commonplace in the market (in most situations). He streams games there are so many factors in his choice of an occupation that could result in him not being paid or even paid enough, that stating he is doing this for his family is a shame. He streams because the money is fast and good now. He streams because he likes to play video games. He doesn't have a real job because streaming is considerably easy. I really don't blame him. Owned is at fault, but he is playing video games because he wants to play video games.
Also I'm pretty sure in the past Destiny said somewhere that he held a normal job. I also think that his stream is more a show. Most people, even those with a crude sense of humor, racist ideals, even highly combative personalities will tune down their opinions at work and/or even tune them out. I'm sure he is capable of holding another job, he just prefers this one.
I'm not saying that he couldn't hold a job, or that he doesn't like playing video games. I also agree that the self-employment thing is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
That being said, it's hard to apply for jobs and get them in the future when the google search results for your name turn up "baneling rape analogy", "dick pics", and "Destiny defends use of racial slurs". I'm positive he can be a good employee, it's more the getting the good job or good education that's the issue. Sure the money is fast and easy now, and sure he enjoys playing games now, but does he really want to have to do this to make money the rest of his life? His past job was carpet-cleaning - that doesn't qualify you for a lot of jobs, nor does streaming video games.
Again though, this is a complete tangent to this thread, but it'd be really interesting to see what a lot of these players plan on doing with their lives in the long run because this sport is so volatile it seems like a major risk to take in one's life, even if the money is good in the short term and it's a fun thing to do.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I didn't like or dislike pro gamers,but I started hating hate pro gamers when i got a real job last year. I mean they are messing up their own futures. Come on!, it is just really dumb. When i think about. Wow, you screwed yourself is this is your best effort at living life? Really? Go to college and try and educate yourself. Whatever happens to you is your own fault for choose this. Destiny tries to use his child as an excuse to get money. His family has nothing to do with the money it is his own fault for being a streamer. It comes with the packet so deal with it yourself.
OH man! lol this is priceless lol im cracking up
Im so confused with all the sarcasm in the thread lol. I cant tell if anyone is being serious or not
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I didn't like or dislike pro gamers,but I started hating hate pro gamers when i got a real job last year. I mean they are messing up their own futures. Come on!, it is just really dumb. When i think about. Wow, you screwed yourself is this is your best effort at living life? Really? Go to college and try and educate yourself. Whatever happens to you is your own fault for choose this. Destiny tries to use his child as an excuse to get money. His family has nothing to do with the money it is his own fault for being a streamer. It comes with the packet so deal with it yourself.
OH man! lol this is priceless lol im cracking up
Im so confused with all the sarcasm in the thread lol. I cant tell if anyone is being serious or not
Yeah... I will just go with sarcasm because I just really hope this person is not being serious.
In all honesty, I find that this thread in general to be quite depressing. It just comes off as a lot of people are blaming the victim here and not the one actually at fault (which is Own3d). If people care for Esports at all, they should be up in arms over this because this sort of problem kills Esports.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I didn't like or dislike pro gamers,but I started hating hate pro gamers when i got a real job last year. I mean they are messing up their own futures. Come on!, it is just really dumb. When i think about. Wow, you screwed yourself is this is your best effort at living life? Really? Go to college and try and educate yourself. Whatever happens to you is your own fault for choose this. Destiny tries to use his child as an excuse to get money. His family has nothing to do with the money it is his own fault for being a streamer. It comes with the packet so deal with it yourself.
OH man! lol this is priceless lol im cracking up
Im so confused with all the sarcasm in the thread lol. I cant tell if anyone is being serious or not
Yeah... I will just go with sarcasm because I just really hope this person is not being serious.
In all honesty, I find that this thread in general to be quite depressing. It just comes off as a lot of people are blaming the victim here and not the one actually at fault (which is Own3d). If people care for Esports at all, they should be up in arms over this because this sort of problem kills Esports.
I don't understand why these people are so hostile to progamers either. Destiny signed a contract that guaranteed he would get paid. He knew what his stream numbers were like so it was relatively safe in that regard anyway.
Also Destiny has also stated that he would go back to school and/or get a "real" job if streaming stopped providing for his family. This is not the issue of this problem though. He should have had no problem with income at all based on his stream numbers and the percentage of ad revenue that he is supposed to get. This issue is entirely that own3d either refuses to or can't pay the money that they owe to their streamers. Turning the blame on him is very puzzling. He did nothing wrong in this instance and based on the information provided he is owed a significant amount of money.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
Once again what you are saying about streaming is true about any form of self employment.
The whole argument smacks of jealousy to me. You think that because he enjoys his job its not a real job. That's not how the world works. You ever hear a professional poker player in an interview? Poker is their JOB. Streaming is Destiny's job. It fulfills every requirement of a job. It takes time and earns money - therefore: JOB.
You want to make an argument that streaming is a job, fine. Streaming is a job. Now accept this as fact. Streaming is not a safe stable source if income. I only have an issue with the fact that he brings his kid into this. If he wanted a job, to secure a financial future for his family, he should have looked elsewhere outside of esports. Btw by your classification of a job Destiny has been out of a job for 9 months
Again I don't understand why anyone used Owned in the first place. I do think they should pay their streamers, but they wont they will go into bankruptcy. From his article they're even wasting time/money looking for a legal way to not pay their streamers.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job.
He had a contract. I'ts a job. Period. Had this contract been fulfilled, he would have been able to sustain his family. Neither of the things you brought up actually matter in Destiny's case, because they never became an issue. Who knows, maybe he was looking for a job besides streaming, considering his financial issues, but couldn't find one. Ever thought about that?
May I also point out, that you know jack and shit about the financial security of streaming?
I believe I just pointed out many valid points about the financial security of streaming. Here is the best one. What happens if Destiny no longer has a following? How much money from commercials would he get? How much is 60% of $0?
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
K, it is a job. What was his hourly rate since August? I think 0 Dollars an hour is less than minimum wage. Again maybe I didn't make my point clear. If his sole purpose in life was to make enough money to raise a family, and not have to worry about whether he would be able to work the next day, he would not be streaming.
He signed a contract in which he was to make ~$30,000 up front. Wow, what an idiot! Go find a real job, right?
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
Once again what you are saying about streaming is true about any form of self employment.
The whole argument smacks of jealousy to me. You think that because he enjoys his job its not a real job. That's not how the world works. You ever hear a professional poker player in an interview? Poker is their JOB. Streaming is Destiny's job. It fulfills every requirement of a job. It takes time and earns money - therefore: JOB.
You want to make an argument that streaming is a job, fine. Streaming is a job. Now accept this as fact. Streaming is not a safe stable source if income. I only have an issue with the fact that he brings his kid into this. If he wanted a job, to secure a financial future for his family, he should have looked elsewhere outside of esports. Btw by your classification of a job Destiny has been out of a job for 9 months
Again I don't understand why anyone used Owned in the first place. I do think they should pay their streamers, but they wont they will go into bankruptcy. From his article they're even wasting time/money looking for a legal way to not pay their streamers.
On January 20 2013 09:48 thekaas wrote:
On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:
On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job.
He had a contract. I'ts a job. Period. Had this contract been fulfilled, he would have been able to sustain his family. Neither of the things you brought up actually matter in Destiny's case, because they never became an issue. Who knows, maybe he was looking for a job besides streaming, considering his financial issues, but couldn't find one. Ever thought about that?
May I also point out, that you know jack and shit about the financial security of streaming?
I believe I just pointed out many valid points about the financial security of streaming. Here is the best one. What happens if Destiny no longer has a following? How much money from commercials would he get? How much is 60% of $0?
On January 20 2013 09:53 ch33psh33p wrote:
On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote:
On January 20 2013 07:48 thekaas wrote:
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
K, it is a job. What was his hourly rate since August? I think 0 Dollars an hour is less than minimum wage. Again maybe I didn't make my point clear. If his sole purpose in life was to make enough money to raise a family, and not have to worry about whether he would be able to work the next day, he would not be streaming.
He signed a contract in which he was to make ~$30,000 up front. Wow, what an idiot! Go find a real job, right?
Yeah, the next time I sign any contract I'll make sure to have NoobSkills look at it. Since he's an authority with tons of experience in the industry and can tell me if it's a "real" job or not. Clearly knows more about the industry than that Totalbiscuit guy, I mean who is he? /sarcasm
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
what he said is true, if you are just starting a family, esports is a very risky investment to make. I certainly wouldn't do it, and I doubt many others would either. It is a brand new industry, full of risks and holes.... and yes showing up to mcdonalds and flipping burgers is a more stable way to feed a child. He is just using his family, and his child to amplify his shitstorm on own3d. Both parties involved are not very smart
If you have years of data showing that you are able to work in any field and make x amount of dollars on average, which is either well above what you're estimating your expenses will be or have sufficient savings in order to take losses that may occur, there is absolutely nothing too risky about making a living in eSports.
The guy has been streaming for over 2 years and has plenty of data showing what he is making, what he should be making, and estimates on what he lost due to not being paid. There is nothing "not very smart" about what he's doing in the least, and there's nothing sensational about his wording.
He has a child, he needs to support that child, and his contracted agreement with a group was supposed to ensure that at the least he would be paid for the job that he completed. If he saw that his streaming would not be enough, there's nothing to say that he wouldn't have gotten that job at mcdonalds, but that's not the case. He made enough through ad revenue to support his family, assuming he was paid by his employer. He is bringing up the point about his child simply to show that this is not just him being affected here, and to create empathy (which is less sensational, and more honest and effective imo).
You are incredibly stupid, perhaps you are just jealous that your stream didn't take off like destiny's. Money is made in the streaming business, hell I make a fine living off the amount of viewers i get, and it's no where near what destiny gets.
The amount of money he makes, is way more than enough to support his family and himself, and more. Own3d needs to do their part in the contract signed. The fact that you're making an argument that he's self-employed is just ridiculous, and he's speaking up about this because he's NOT THE ONLY PERSON who's getting screwed.
I'm sure if you saw the destiny's numbers you would shit your pants, because then you'd keep your mouth shut about things you have no clue about. Personally, what I get from your message is just someone who's starting flame and bringing up nonsensical bullshit and attacking someone who doesn't deserve to be attacked.
On January 20 2013 12:26 graveboy wrote:I didn't like or dislike pro gamers,but I started hating hate pro gamers when i got a real job last year. I mean they are messing up their own futures. Come on!, it is just really dumb. When i think about. Wow, you screwed yourself is this is your best effort at living life? Really? Go to college and try and educate yourself. Whatever happens to you is your own fault for choose this. Destiny tries to use his child as an excuse to get money. His family has nothing to do with the money it is his own fault for being a streamer. It comes with the packet so deal with it yourself.
It's priceless gj bro! But could be even more hilarious if you stated that you are proud employ of McDonald's...
Calling Plansix's comment "professional legal advice" is incredibly misleading and potentially illegal, FYI. It's the personal opinion of someone who works in law. HUGE difference. Not ragging on Plansix (to the best of my knowledge, everything they said was correct), but I'm guessing they'd be the first to say that their comments shouldn't be represented as 'professional legal advice'.
Goodness. I didn't realize just how fickle and uncertain the eSports business side of things was. But in retrospect I guess this makes sense, any sort of international business is about 100x harder to run smoothly than a national one.
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Yeah? And where would you get the money to pay for said legal action? Your streaming jo-- Oh wait.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
what he said is true, if you are just starting a family, esports is a very risky investment to make. I certainly wouldn't do it, and I doubt many others would either. It is a brand new industry, full of risks and holes.... and yes showing up to mcdonalds and flipping burgers is a more stable way to feed a child. He is just using his family, and his child to amplify his shitstorm on own3d. Both parties involved are not very smart
If you have years of data showing that you are able to work in any field and make x amount of dollars on average, which is either well above what you're estimating your expenses will be or have sufficient savings in order to take losses that may occur, there is absolutely nothing too risky about making a living in eSports.
The guy has been streaming for over 2 years and has plenty of data showing what he is making, what he should be making, and estimates on what he lost due to not being paid. There is nothing "not very smart" about what he's doing in the least, and there's nothing sensational about his wording.
He has a child, he needs to support that child, and his contracted agreement with a group was supposed to ensure that at the least he would be paid for the job that he completed. If he saw that his streaming would not be enough, there's nothing to say that he wouldn't have gotten that job at mcdonalds, but that's not the case. He made enough through ad revenue to support his family, assuming he was paid by his employer. He is bringing up the point about his child simply to show that this is not just him being affected here, and to create empathy (which is less sensational, and more honest and effective imo).
You are incredibly stupid, perhaps you are just jealous that your stream didn't take off like destiny's. Money is made in the streaming business, hell I make a fine living off the amount of viewers i get, and it's no where near what destiny gets.
The amount of money he makes, is way more than enough to support his family and himself, and more. Own3d needs to do their part in the contract signed. The fact that you're making an argument that he's self-employed is just ridiculous, and he's speaking up about this because he's NOT THE ONLY PERSON who's getting screwed.
I'm sure if you saw the destiny's numbers you would shit your pants, because then you'd keep your mouth shut about things you have no clue about. Personally, what I get from your message is just someone who's starting flame and bringing up nonsensical bullshit and attacking someone who doesn't deserve to be attacked.
So you're calling someone else incredibly stupid and not me, right?
I agree with the sharp "barracks lawyers" on this thread. Suing an overseas company that we are pretty sure has money problems doesn't inspire much confidence in lawyers, and the accuser would have to front enormous amounts of money to make it happen, even though the payoff would be small or nonexistant most likely. A grass roots response works better for gamers I think. Someone posts an article on a popular resource page, people read it and share it, and then everyone can vote with their feet/wallet so to speak. If all these gamers who attract large crowds to their stream switch to a streaming site that actually pays, own3d will soon enough be out of business.
I know it's not much consolation, but in my personal experience people who steal and cheat to get other people's money don't really enjoy it for long. Eventually their own personal excesses come back to haunt them and they end up worse than when they started.
Its funny about how much people can bitch about things so offtopic and nonsensical they completly make themselves look like even bigger 'pricks'. Who gives if you agree with Destiny's points of views in life? Why would you give him shit anyway in this thread?
He's not gettin payed, like others, final. End of the conversation... get your own important stream and bitch about that one you perfect lawyers
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
yea i really don't understand all this self employment bullshit, its completely besides the point. Destiny switched to owned and brought them TONS of viewers and owned was not on time or did not pay destiny at all. Teams/organizations seem to have it way easier with contracts because they pretty much know that a player wont come after them legally.
The self employment stuff has nothing to do with the issue at hand in the thread, which is that owned is a scam. I don't like Destiny, but he is right to bring this out to the public, regardless of how his reasons or how he chooses to make a living.
That being said, it's an interesting topic to discuss. Is it smart for someone to try to rely on streaming to raise a family? I feel bad for Destiny sometimes because I'm not sure he really has options. The side effect to his controversial personality which helps him to make money from streaming is that his name is all over the internet associated with lots racist slurs and stuff like that. I think finding employment that could really give him a stable livelihood would be pretty difficult if you consider that. Streaming really may be his best option, and even if I'm not a fan of him I hope esports remains stable and companies actually pay out so he can support his family. He's made a niche for himself, but in doing so has really cut a lot of options out of his life for the future.
The whole self-employment issue is irreverent. Because even though those who are self employed have similar risks to Destiny they are far reduced from what Destiny faces. They produce a known product that is commonplace in the market (in most situations). He streams games there are so many factors in his choice of an occupation that could result in him not being paid or even paid enough, that stating he is doing this for his family is a shame. He streams because the money is fast and good now. He streams because he likes to play video games. He doesn't have a real job because streaming is considerably easy. I really don't blame him. Owned is at fault, but he is playing video games because he wants to play video games.
Also I'm pretty sure in the past Destiny said somewhere that he held a normal job. I also think that his stream is more a show. Most people, even those with a crude sense of humor, racist ideals, even highly combative personalities will tune down their opinions at work and/or even tune them out. I'm sure he is capable of holding another job, he just prefers this one.
I'm not saying that he couldn't hold a job, or that he doesn't like playing video games. I also agree that the self-employment thing is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
That being said, it's hard to apply for jobs and get them in the future when the google search results for your name turn up "baneling rape analogy", "dick pics", and "Destiny defends use of racial slurs". I'm positive he can be a good employee, it's more the getting the good job or good education that's the issue. Sure the money is fast and easy now, and sure he enjoys playing games now, but does he really want to have to do this to make money the rest of his life? His past job was carpet-cleaning - that doesn't qualify you for a lot of jobs, nor does streaming video games.
Again though, this is a complete tangent to this thread, but it'd be really interesting to see what a lot of these players plan on doing with their lives in the long run because this sport is so volatile it seems like a major risk to take in one's life, even if the money is good in the short term and it's a fun thing to do.
The reason Destiny doesn't have a "Real Job" is that he is making more money from streaming then he was with a full time job, he used to work in a Casino iirc.. "He is playing video games because he wants to play video games"... And because..he's...making...more money...then he did...at ...a. "real Job" He's said so himself before on stream that he would never go back to typical job because he'd be making less money then he is right now, well less money unless he suddenly became a doctor/lawyer <insert High-paying job here>
On January 20 2013 19:34 sixfour wrote: Serious issue and the first thing the OP does is have a swipe at Destiny implying that the whole "community" is against him, disappointing
Ever hear of the boy who cried wolf, if you make big stinks about shit all the time for attention then when you have a real issue people will take it less seriously than someone who has only been professional in the past. I feel for him in this situation but i understand why you see comments like the OPs. I mean "its another big destiny rant" most people expect BS just on hearing that. edit
On January 21 2013 01:04 Angryn00b wrote: Its funny about how much people can bitch about things so offtopic and nonsensical they completly make themselves look like even bigger 'pricks'. Who gives if you agree with Destiny's points of views in life? Why would you give him shit anyway in this thread?
He's not gettin payed, like others, final. End of the conversation... get your own important stream and bitch about that one you perfect lawyers
Well first of all its not up to you to decide where the conversation begins and ends, you aren't a judge and this isn't a court room it doesn't matter if you think something is irrelevant. Second if you think that in this world it doesn't matter what you have done and said in the past and that people should only look at what you are currently saying or doing then you are going to be sorely disappointed later in life. Everything matters, you aren't the person you say you are, you are the person you have been your whole life and all the things you do and say effect the way that people look at you.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
I havent familiarized with the situation but I'm pretty sure destiny had a contract which implies that he shud get money when he streams (and has viewers), It's the same fucking thing as working in mcdonalds and not getting paid.
yea i really don't understand all this self employment bullshit, its completely besides the point. Destiny switched to owned and brought them TONS of viewers and owned was not on time or did not pay destiny at all. Teams/organizations seem to have it way easier with contracts because they pretty much know that a player wont come after them legally.
The self employment stuff has nothing to do with the issue at hand in the thread, which is that owned is a scam. I don't like Destiny, but he is right to bring this out to the public, regardless of how his reasons or how he chooses to make a living.
That being said, it's an interesting topic to discuss. Is it smart for someone to try to rely on streaming to raise a family? I feel bad for Destiny sometimes because I'm not sure he really has options. The side effect to his controversial personality which helps him to make money from streaming is that his name is all over the internet associated with lots racist slurs and stuff like that. I think finding employment that could really give him a stable livelihood would be pretty difficult if you consider that. Streaming really may be his best option, and even if I'm not a fan of him I hope esports remains stable and companies actually pay out so he can support his family. He's made a niche for himself, but in doing so has really cut a lot of options out of his life for the future.
The whole self-employment issue is irreverent. Because even though those who are self employed have similar risks to Destiny they are far reduced from what Destiny faces. They produce a known product that is commonplace in the market (in most situations). He streams games there are so many factors in his choice of an occupation that could result in him not being paid or even paid enough, that stating he is doing this for his family is a shame. He streams because the money is fast and good now. He streams because he likes to play video games. He doesn't have a real job because streaming is considerably easy. I really don't blame him. Owned is at fault, but he is playing video games because he wants to play video games.
Also I'm pretty sure in the past Destiny said somewhere that he held a normal job. I also think that his stream is more a show. Most people, even those with a crude sense of humor, racist ideals, even highly combative personalities will tune down their opinions at work and/or even tune them out. I'm sure he is capable of holding another job, he just prefers this one.
Come on guys, I am sure NoobSkills is an authority on real jobs! He probably issues out Certificates of Authenticity for jobs verified by him to be real, complete with a "NoobSkills Stamp of Approval"!
People bashing streaming and progaming in this tread as not being "real jobs" should really get a hold of themselves, it are the same disgusting comments that flooded the Gamespot thread about Quantic disbanding. Do you consider being an athlete a "real job" ? Like football players for example ? Do you consider being a television star like a news anchor, a sports commentator, a talk show host, and so on a "real job" ? After all, it's all the same thing, it's sports or entertainement in general.
I can just picture those haters as spoiled brats that grew up with the idea that some jobs are not meant for them and of 'lesser value', like being a gardener for example (I've seriously heard that before), and that they were meant to grow up to study and get a "real job". Except that job isn't really what they wanted, so now when they see someone that enjoys what they do, they are jealous and bash them for having picked a "fake job", which caused all their problems.
Reading some of the replies in this topic really reminds me how deep intolerance is rooted in some people's minds.
On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote: Streaming is not a job simple as that.
Lmao /agree
I am Sr. Manager of analytics for one of the worlds largest advertising agencies. It's my job to know how this all works. Despite your uninformed opinion streaming is in fact a lucrative job for those that have a decent audience. A streamer with the average viewership of Destiny with a decent rev-share agreement can make about 50K (gross) a year streaming about 4 hours per day every day. Even at 7 days a week that's a decent living for just a 28 hour work week.
(Numbers based upon average of 2K viewership & 4 ad breaks per hour with 3 ads per break and a 2$ cpm rev-share agreement which amounts to approximately 6.7% of what the site is likely making from him)
If Destiny is not being paid for several months of work or more that means he's easily lost thousands of dollars which is a big deal. Even though I'm not a big fan of his antics, I wouldn't wish this upon anyone trying to make a living the best way they know how.
As I have significant influence in where billions of ad dollars are spent every year I can assure you that if this turns out to be true Own3d will lose significant revenue via the loss of my accounts.
On January 21 2013 03:09 NumberFive wrote: People bashing streaming and progaming in this tread as not being "real jobs" should really get a hold of themselves, it are the same disgusting comments that flooded the Gamespot thread about Quantic disbanding. Do you consider being an athlete a "real job" ? Like football players for example ? Do you consider being a television star like a news anchor, a sports commentator, a talk show host, and so on a "real job" ? After all, it's all the same thing, it's sports or entertainement in general.
I can just picture those haters as spoiled brats that grew up with the idea that some jobs are not meant for them and of 'lesser value', like being a gardener for example (I've seriously heard that before), and that they were meant to grow up to study and get a "real job". Except that job isn't really what they wanted, so now when they see someone that enjoys what they do, they are jealous and bash them for having picked a "fake job", which caused all their problems.
that's some terrible psychoanalysis at the end of your post;)
but yeah I agree it can be looked at as a real job.
I use a computer software to create 3D content for my company, maybe some hard physical worker thinks this isn't a real job either.
but people are also right in the sense that playing a game all day and streaming is not something that gives you valuable knowledge or experience. even less than that because if you ever apply for an actual job at a company that 6 years in your resume that u spent playing all day is actually a HUGE disadvantage for you.
and it isn't actually worth if financially for a lot of people I hear. It's ok for Stephano because he's still young, he makes a lot and he can still study whatever he wants. Or for Nerchio, he attends a college and treats sc2 as a hobby not as a job.
now for Destiny.... he's the other pole. he made ok-ish money but now no employer will ever hire him for a good job because of a google search (and serious employers do google/facebook etc you),
this "job" isn't something that makes your life and career move forward... it hinders you more than it helps in the long run. it's different in Korea because it's really accepted there. but if you live in a country where education is free (basically all european countries, for example in Norway it's even free for EVERY FOREIGNER), there is no excuse to not study something and prepare yourself for the real life. playing a game all day is a dead end from so many aspects. in 5-6 years you can become a doctor, an engineer, an architect and you don't even need to put in as much effort as in sc to be good.
I never played as much as these guys, but still regretting all the time I wasted on games, I could have 3 degrees now instead of one....
On January 21 2013 03:24 HungrySC2 wrote: I don't want to shout "players union", but it seems some resource which players can chose to join to help with situations like this might be nice.
just a thought.
Something like that would just be another intermediate money grab that siphons money from teams and players.
On January 21 2013 03:24 HungrySC2 wrote: I don't want to shout "players union", but it seems some resource which players can chose to join to help with situations like this might be nice.
just a thought.
Something like that would just be another intermediate money grab that siphons money from teams and players.
But it also protects players from being taken advantage of. While I despise both unions and agents, I can see how you need someone with understand of how to negotiate and understand contracts. Clearly, there have been issues with players getting paid and it's something that should be rectified.
On January 21 2013 03:24 HungrySC2 wrote: I don't want to shout "players union", but it seems some resource which players can chose to join to help with situations like this might be nice.
just a thought.
Something like that would just be another intermediate money grab that siphons money from teams and players.
Unions with elected representatives are not money grabs, they are an important part of the post-depression work force. Unions with a bureaucracy of outside hires are "intermediate money grabs."
People who blindly bash unions seem to forget how a post-industrial workforce increased the distance between the rich and the poor until unions came along to show that the workforce is not a free resource. I am not in a unionized job currently and I enjoy many labor freedoms and rights, but unions are important especially in new areas of work such as eSports in order to create a standard for how the workforce is treated.
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
what he said is true, if you are just starting a family, esports is a very risky investment to make. I certainly wouldn't do it, and I doubt many others would either. It is a brand new industry, full of risks and holes.... and yes showing up to mcdonalds and flipping burgers is a more stable way to feed a child. He is just using his family, and his child to amplify his shitstorm on own3d. Both parties involved are not very smart
If you have years of data showing that you are able to work in any field and make x amount of dollars on average, which is either well above what you're estimating your expenses will be or have sufficient savings in order to take losses that may occur, there is absolutely nothing too risky about making a living in eSports.
The guy has been streaming for over 2 years and has plenty of data showing what he is making, what he should be making, and estimates on what he lost due to not being paid. There is nothing "not very smart" about what he's doing in the least, and there's nothing sensational about his wording.
He has a child, he needs to support that child, and his contracted agreement with a group was supposed to ensure that at the least he would be paid for the job that he completed. If he saw that his streaming would not be enough, there's nothing to say that he wouldn't have gotten that job at mcdonalds, but that's not the case. He made enough through ad revenue to support his family, assuming he was paid by his employer. He is bringing up the point about his child simply to show that this is not just him being affected here, and to create empathy (which is less sensational, and more honest and effective imo).
You are incredibly stupid, perhaps you are just jealous that your stream didn't take off like destiny's. Money is made in the streaming business, hell I make a fine living off the amount of viewers i get, and it's no where near what destiny gets.
The amount of money he makes, is way more than enough to support his family and himself, and more. Own3d needs to do their part in the contract signed. The fact that you're making an argument that he's self-employed is just ridiculous, and he's speaking up about this because he's NOT THE ONLY PERSON who's getting screwed.
I'm sure if you saw the destiny's numbers you would shit your pants, because then you'd keep your mouth shut about things you have no clue about. Personally, what I get from your message is just someone who's starting flame and bringing up nonsensical bullshit and attacking someone who doesn't deserve to be attacked.
So you're calling someone else incredibly stupid and not me, right?
Nope, pretty sure you just got totally shit on by two different people that make a living off of streaming.
Unions with elected representatives are not money grabs, they are an important part of the post-depression work force. Unions with a bureaucracy of outside hires are "intermediate money grabs."
People who blindly bash unions seem to forget how a post-industrial workforce increased the distance between the rich and the poor until unions came along to show that the workforce is not a free resource. I am not in a unionized job currently and I enjoy many labor freedoms and rights, but unions are important especially in new areas of work such as eSports in order to create a standard for how the workforce is treated.
Unions require a mature and healthy business environment for them to work as intended. It is still too early for a union to work in this industry.
On January 21 2013 03:09 NumberFive wrote: People bashing streaming and progaming in this tread as not being "real jobs" should really get a hold of themselves, it are the same disgusting comments that flooded the Gamespot thread about Quantic disbanding. Do you consider being an athlete a "real job" ? Like football players for example ? Do you consider being a television star like a news anchor, a sports commentator, a talk show host, and so on a "real job" ? After all, it's all the same thing, it's sports or entertainement in general.
I can just picture those haters as spoiled brats that grew up with the idea that some jobs are not meant for them and of 'lesser value', like being a gardener for example (I've seriously heard that before), and that they were meant to grow up to study and get a "real job". Except that job isn't really what they wanted, so now when they see someone that enjoys what they do, they are jealous and bash them for having picked a "fake job", which caused all their problems.
that's some terrible psychoanalysis at the end of your post;)
but yeah I agree it can be looked at as a real job.
I use a computer software to create 3D content for my company, maybe some hard physical worker thinks this isn't a real job either.
but people are also right in the sense that playing a game all day and streaming is not something that gives you valuable knowledge or experience. even less than that because if you ever apply for an actual job at a company that 6 years in your resume that u spent playing all day is actually a HUGE disadvantage for you.
and it isn't actually worth if financially for a lot of people I hear. It's ok for Stephano because he's still young, he makes a lot and he can still study whatever he wants. Or for Nerchio, he attends a college and treats sc2 as a hobby not as a job.
now for Destiny.... he's the other pole. he made ok-ish money but now no employer will ever hire him for a good job because of a google search (and serious employers do google/facebook etc you),
this "job" isn't something that makes your life and career move forward... it hinders you more than it helps in the long run. it's different in Korea because it's really accepted there. but if you live in a country where education is free (basically all european countries, for example in Norway it's even free for EVERY FOREIGNER), there is no excuse to not study something and prepare yourself for the real life. playing a game all day is a dead end from so many aspects. in 5-6 years you can become a doctor, an engineer, an architect and you don't even need to put in as much effort as in sc to be good.
I never played as much as these guys, but still regretting all the time I wasted on games, I could have 3 degrees now instead of one....
Destiny also said that the job he enjoyed the most up to now (excluding streaming, because destiny STREAMS for a living, he doesn't compete for a living) was working in a Casino, and that would be the job he would go to if it was really needed. Do you consider working tables in a casino, with a woodwind performance degree, a job that makes your life and carreer move forward ? Just the fact you're talking about "hire him for a good job" makes me fear the worst for your answer
So in 5-6 years someone can become a Doctor, an engineer etc to prepair them for the "real life" according to you. (also:you have to put in less effort in engineering or a doctor to be good, that's actually really wrong.) What if they don't want to be those things and REALLY like and enjoy to be a musician for example ? They practice and try to make it work as a band through gigs, youtube etc. and it's the thing they love doing, but then you would go out and tell them that playing their instrument the whole day is a waste of time and they should study instead ?
It's not because you value having that kind of job this much that other people feel like you, Destiny enjoys streaming, he's not using streaming to kickstart his carreer as the CEO of microsoft. It's Ironic how you say "A hard physical worker could think my job isn't a real job" and then you proceed to do the EXACT SAME THING. Instead of a "hard worker" bashing a tech job, you're a "Guy working for a company" bashing someone that is self-employed.
On January 21 2013 03:09 NumberFive wrote: People bashing streaming and progaming in this tread as not being "real jobs" should really get a hold of themselves, it are the same disgusting comments that flooded the Gamespot thread about Quantic disbanding. Do you consider being an athlete a "real job" ? Like football players for example ? Do you consider being a television star like a news anchor, a sports commentator, a talk show host, and so on a "real job" ? After all, it's all the same thing, it's sports or entertainement in general.
I can just picture those haters as spoiled brats that grew up with the idea that some jobs are not meant for them and of 'lesser value', like being a gardener for example (I've seriously heard that before), and that they were meant to grow up to study and get a "real job". Except that job isn't really what they wanted, so now when they see someone that enjoys what they do, they are jealous and bash them for having picked a "fake job", which caused all their problems.
that's some terrible psychoanalysis at the end of your post;)
but yeah I agree it can be looked at as a real job.
I use a computer software to create 3D content for my company, maybe some hard physical worker thinks this isn't a real job either.
but people are also right in the sense that playing a game all day and streaming is not something that gives you valuable knowledge or experience. even less than that because if you ever apply for an actual job at a company that 6 years in your resume that u spent playing all day is actually a HUGE disadvantage for you.
and it isn't actually worth if financially for a lot of people I hear. It's ok for Stephano because he's still young, he makes a lot and he can still study whatever he wants. Or for Nerchio, he attends a college and treats sc2 as a hobby not as a job.
now for Destiny.... he's the other pole. he made ok-ish money but now no employer will ever hire him for a good job because of a google search (and serious employers do google/facebook etc you),
this "job" isn't something that makes your life and career move forward... it hinders you more than it helps in the long run. it's different in Korea because it's really accepted there. but if you live in a country where education is free (basically all european countries, for example in Norway it's even free for EVERY FOREIGNER), there is no excuse to not study something and prepare yourself for the real life. playing a game all day is a dead end from so many aspects. in 5-6 years you can become a doctor, an engineer, an architect and you don't even need to put in as much effort as in sc to be good.
I never played as much as these guys, but still regretting all the time I wasted on games, I could have 3 degrees now instead of one....
Destiny also said that the job he enjoyed the most up to now (excluding streaming, because destiny STREAMS for a living, he doesn't compete for a living) was working in a Casino, and that would be the job he would go to if it was really needed. Do you consider working tables in a casino, with a woodwind performance degree, a job that makes your life and carreer move forward ? Just the fact you're talking about "hire him for a good job" makes me fear the worst for your answer
So in 5-6 years someone can become a Doctor, an engineer etc to prepair them for the "real life" according to you. (also:you have to put in less effort in engineering or a doctor to be good LOL ) What if they don't want to be those things and REALLY like and enjoy to be a musician for example ? They practice and try to make it work as a band through gigs, youtube etc. and it's the thing they love doing, but then you would go out and tell them that playing their instrument the whole day is a waste of time and they should study instead ?
It's not because you value having that kind of job this much that other people feel like you, Destiny enjoys streaming, he's not using streaming to kickstart his carreer as the CEO of microsoft.
As long as he can provide for his child and himself he should do whatever he wants. That should be the final answer to this.
On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote: Streaming is not a job simple as that.
Lmao /agree
I am Sr. Manager of analytics for one of the worlds largest advertising agencies. It's my job to know how this all works. Despite your uninformed opinion streaming is in fact a lucrative job for those that have a decent audience. A streamer with the average viewership of Destiny with a decent rev-share agreement can make about 50K (gross) a year streaming about 4 hours per day every day. Even at 7 days a week that's a decent living for just a 28 hour work week.
(Numbers based upon average of 2K viewership & 4 ad breaks per hour with 3 ads per break and a 2$ cpm rev-share agreement which amounts to approximately 6.7% of what the site is likely making from him)
If Destiny is not being paid for several months of work or more that means he's easily lost thousands of dollars which is a big deal. Even though I'm not a big fan of his antics, I wouldn't wish this upon anyone trying to make a living the best way they know how.
As I have significant influence in where billions of ad dollars are spent every year I can assure you that if this turns out to be true Own3d will lose significant revenue via the loss of my accounts.
I hope you don't break anything, should you ever fall from your high horse.
On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote: Streaming is not a job simple as that.
Lmao /agree
I am Sr. Manager of analytics for one of the worlds largest advertising agencies. It's my job to know how this all works. Despite your uninformed opinion streaming is in fact a lucrative job for those that have a decent audience. A streamer with the average viewership of Destiny with a decent rev-share agreement can make about 50K (gross) a year streaming about 4 hours per day every day. Even at 7 days a week that's a decent living for just a 28 hour work week.
(Numbers based upon average of 2K viewership & 4 ad breaks per hour with 3 ads per break and a 2$ cpm rev-share agreement which amounts to approximately 6.7% of what the site is likely making from him)
If Destiny is not being paid for several months of work or more that means he's easily lost thousands of dollars which is a big deal. Even though I'm not a big fan of his antics, I wouldn't wish this upon anyone trying to make a living the best way they know how.
As I have significant influence in where billions of ad dollars are spent every year I can assure you that if this turns out to be true Own3d will lose significant revenue via the loss of my accounts.
I hope you don't break anything, should you ever fall from your high horse.
Yes, an actual expert within the industry provides insight, and all you can do is ignore his argument while making ad hominems that make no sense.
On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote: Streaming is not a job simple as that.
Lmao /agree
I am Sr. Manager of analytics for one of the worlds largest advertising agencies. It's my job to know how this all works. Despite your uninformed opinion streaming is in fact a lucrative job for those that have a decent audience. A streamer with the average viewership of Destiny with a decent rev-share agreement can make about 50K (gross) a year streaming about 4 hours per day every day. Even at 7 days a week that's a decent living for just a 28 hour work week.
(Numbers based upon average of 2K viewership & 4 ad breaks per hour with 3 ads per break and a 2$ cpm rev-share agreement which amounts to approximately 6.7% of what the site is likely making from him)
If Destiny is not being paid for several months of work or more that means he's easily lost thousands of dollars which is a big deal. Even though I'm not a big fan of his antics, I wouldn't wish this upon anyone trying to make a living the best way they know how.
As I have significant influence in where billions of ad dollars are spent every year I can assure you that if this turns out to be true Own3d will lose significant revenue via the loss of my accounts.
I hope you don't break anything, should you ever fall from your high horse.
Yes, an actual expert within the industry provides insight, and all you can do is ignore his argument while making ad hominems that make no sense.
Congrats dude, really, congrats.
You believe every job title someone gives himself on an internet forum? Just because he throws around some numbers? I don't find any insights in this post; just expression of greatness.
Nothing wrong with twitch.tv They do an awesome job. Even when streams start to struggle. They come so quickly after we report problems with the wrench. I feel twitch.tv is working hard. And they deserve some applause.
On January 21 2013 05:11 KAB00000000M wrote: Nothing wrong with twitch.tv They do an awesome job. Even when streams start to struggle. They come so quickly after we report problems with the wrench. I feel twitch.tv is working hard. And they deserve some applause.
twitch is good but they have no consistency when it comes to stream quality. Just about every major event stream recently has been plagued with lag issues.
On January 21 2013 03:09 NumberFive wrote: People bashing streaming and progaming in this tread as not being "real jobs" should really get a hold of themselves, it are the same disgusting comments that flooded the Gamespot thread about Quantic disbanding. Do you consider being an athlete a "real job" ? Like football players for example ? Do you consider being a television star like a news anchor, a sports commentator, a talk show host, and so on a "real job" ? After all, it's all the same thing, it's sports or entertainement in general.
I can just picture those haters as spoiled brats that grew up with the idea that some jobs are not meant for them and of 'lesser value', like being a gardener for example (I've seriously heard that before), and that they were meant to grow up to study and get a "real job". Except that job isn't really what they wanted, so now when they see someone that enjoys what they do, they are jealous and bash them for having picked a "fake job", which caused all their problems.
Reading some of the replies in this topic really reminds me how deep intolerance is rooted in some people's minds.
I agree that they can be considered real jobs if you treat it like a real job... That said, I think alot of the hate comes from the public whining and lack of action, they know the risks of having your income based on something as variable as streaming. Not to condone what Owned did but i mean honestly, if you worked in a regular job in the outside world, and your employer didnt pay you, thats breach of contract on their part, and you would have been out of their like a shot and suing them or moving on to another job before your are owed 6 months of pay. Nobody would stand for this in a "real" job and the financial impact wouldnt have been so great. Imagine if Destiny had made this thread after the first month, all of this would have happened the same way, and he would have been back on twitch making money without depleting his savings
Now alot of the streamers felt trapped because they hadnt received pay, and didnt want to forfeit it if they left, but they really should have been leaving after the FIRST cheque was more than a week late without any reasonable explanation. And if the offending company decided to make an issue out of it, they are obligated to fulfill their end of the contract for you to fulfill yours, ie. Pay you.
On January 21 2013 03:09 NumberFive wrote: People bashing streaming and progaming in this tread as not being "real jobs" should really get a hold of themselves, it are the same disgusting comments that flooded the Gamespot thread about Quantic disbanding. Do you consider being an athlete a "real job" ? Like football players for example ? Do you consider being a television star like a news anchor, a sports commentator, a talk show host, and so on a "real job" ? After all, it's all the same thing, it's sports or entertainement in general.
I can just picture those haters as spoiled brats that grew up with the idea that some jobs are not meant for them and of 'lesser value', like being a gardener for example (I've seriously heard that before), and that they were meant to grow up to study and get a "real job". Except that job isn't really what they wanted, so now when they see someone that enjoys what they do, they are jealous and bash them for having picked a "fake job", which caused all their problems.
that's some terrible psychoanalysis at the end of your post;)
but yeah I agree it can be looked at as a real job.
I use a computer software to create 3D content for my company, maybe some hard physical worker thinks this isn't a real job either.
but people are also right in the sense that playing a game all day and streaming is not something that gives you valuable knowledge or experience. even less than that because if you ever apply for an actual job at a company that 6 years in your resume that u spent playing all day is actually a HUGE disadvantage for you.
and it isn't actually worth if financially for a lot of people I hear. It's ok for Stephano because he's still young, he makes a lot and he can still study whatever he wants. Or for Nerchio, he attends a college and treats sc2 as a hobby not as a job.
now for Destiny.... he's the other pole. he made ok-ish money but now no employer will ever hire him for a good job because of a google search (and serious employers do google/facebook etc you),
this "job" isn't something that makes your life and career move forward... it hinders you more than it helps in the long run. it's different in Korea because it's really accepted there. but if you live in a country where education is free (basically all european countries, for example in Norway it's even free for EVERY FOREIGNER), there is no excuse to not study something and prepare yourself for the real life. playing a game all day is a dead end from so many aspects. in 5-6 years you can become a doctor, an engineer, an architect and you don't even need to put in as much effort as in sc to be good.
I never played as much as these guys, but still regretting all the time I wasted on games, I could have 3 degrees now instead of one....
Destiny also said that the job he enjoyed the most up to now (excluding streaming, because destiny STREAMS for a living, he doesn't compete for a living) was working in a Casino, and that would be the job he would go to if it was really needed. Do you consider working tables in a casino, with a woodwind performance degree, a job that makes your life and carreer move forward ? Just the fact you're talking about "hire him for a good job" makes me fear the worst for your answer
So in 5-6 years someone can become a Doctor, an engineer etc to prepair them for the "real life" according to you. (also:you have to put in less effort in engineering or a doctor to be good, that's actually really wrong.) What if they don't want to be those things and REALLY like and enjoy to be a musician for example ? They practice and try to make it work as a band through gigs, youtube etc. and it's the thing they love doing, but then you would go out and tell them that playing their instrument the whole day is a waste of time and they should study instead ?
It's not because you value having that kind of job this much that other people feel like you, Destiny enjoys streaming, he's not using streaming to kickstart his carreer as the CEO of microsoft. It's Ironic how you say "A hard physical worker could think my job isn't a real job" and then you proceed to do the EXACT SAME THING. Instead of a "hard worker" bashing a tech job, you're a "Guy working for a company" bashing someone that is self-employed.
i have an engineering degree from one of the hardest tech universities in europe, so i know exactly how much effort you have to put in to get it. and it's way less than 8 hours per day. you only want to kill yourself in 20% of your overall time, the rest you can drink yourself to liver failure. of course this considering that you actually have the talent for technology/math etc.
in my home country a casino worker earns really shit. it's by no means a GOOD job. you can live in your little dream world if you think "just do what you like" but if you have a child and a woman that you have to support you aren't only responsible for yourself. It's his life, but here we consider guys like him losers. a kid and girl changes everything. in my oponion anyone is free to fuck up himself as much as they want, but not 2 other ppl....
I also didn't really bash him, just wanted to explan to you how grown ups in the real world actually think here in europe.
i don't care about destiny at all btw, but i don't know why you want to justify his life so much when it's clearly lame overall according to everyone who takes life seriously, is your life similar to his or what? you have nothing against what I say. I'm not even being elitist here, it's just that people without education here earn so bad, and it's free, so everyone who wants to live a decent life MUST study a lot. but i don't consider him stupid, he's actually pretty smart based on the way he talks. He could earn 2-3x my salary in the USA as a car mechanic or something that requires 1 year of study or so. I'm explaining this to you because you clearly aren't familiar with my way of thinking.
the part about it being "lame"- that's not MY thinking, that's the way society thinks. If you do something that's lame according to 95% of the world, you can't really accomplish much unless you're really lucky or really really talented at that lame thing that u can make it work. You can go and explain this to anyone because you like Destiny, but you live in the world, you depend on the world, you have to correspond to the world- and if he's done with streaming, this will be hard for him.
You believe every job title someone gives himself on an internet forum? Just because he throws around some numbers? I don't find any insights in this post; just expression of greatness.
Are you somehow personally offended by this? Did it hurt your feelings?
There are facts and then there are opinions. It just happens that in this industry there are hard facts and it seemed like a few needed to be dropped on the uninformed. I have no problem if you feel the need to advocate for your kind.
On January 21 2013 03:09 NumberFive wrote: People bashing streaming and progaming in this tread as not being "real jobs" should really get a hold of themselves, it are the same disgusting comments that flooded the Gamespot thread about Quantic disbanding. Do you consider being an athlete a "real job" ? Like football players for example ? Do you consider being a television star like a news anchor, a sports commentator, a talk show host, and so on a "real job" ? After all, it's all the same thing, it's sports or entertainement in general.
I can just picture those haters as spoiled brats that grew up with the idea that some jobs are not meant for them and of 'lesser value', like being a gardener for example (I've seriously heard that before), and that they were meant to grow up to study and get a "real job". Except that job isn't really what they wanted, so now when they see someone that enjoys what they do, they are jealous and bash them for having picked a "fake job", which caused all their problems.
that's some terrible psychoanalysis at the end of your post;)
but yeah I agree it can be looked at as a real job.
I use a computer software to create 3D content for my company, maybe some hard physical worker thinks this isn't a real job either.
but people are also right in the sense that playing a game all day and streaming is not something that gives you valuable knowledge or experience. even less than that because if you ever apply for an actual job at a company that 6 years in your resume that u spent playing all day is actually a HUGE disadvantage for you.
and it isn't actually worth if financially for a lot of people I hear. It's ok for Stephano because he's still young, he makes a lot and he can still study whatever he wants. Or for Nerchio, he attends a college and treats sc2 as a hobby not as a job.
now for Destiny.... he's the other pole. he made ok-ish money but now no employer will ever hire him for a good job because of a google search (and serious employers do google/facebook etc you),
this "job" isn't something that makes your life and career move forward... it hinders you more than it helps in the long run. it's different in Korea because it's really accepted there. but if you live in a country where education is free (basically all european countries, for example in Norway it's even free for EVERY FOREIGNER), there is no excuse to not study something and prepare yourself for the real life. playing a game all day is a dead end from so many aspects. in 5-6 years you can become a doctor, an engineer, an architect and you don't even need to put in as much effort as in sc to be good.
I never played as much as these guys, but still regretting all the time I wasted on games, I could have 3 degrees now instead of one....
Destiny also said that the job he enjoyed the most up to now (excluding streaming, because destiny STREAMS for a living, he doesn't compete for a living) was working in a Casino, and that would be the job he would go to if it was really needed. Do you consider working tables in a casino, with a woodwind performance degree, a job that makes your life and carreer move forward ? Just the fact you're talking about "hire him for a good job" makes me fear the worst for your answer
So in 5-6 years someone can become a Doctor, an engineer etc to prepair them for the "real life" according to you. (also:you have to put in less effort in engineering or a doctor to be good, that's actually really wrong.) What if they don't want to be those things and REALLY like and enjoy to be a musician for example ? They practice and try to make it work as a band through gigs, youtube etc. and it's the thing they love doing, but then you would go out and tell them that playing their instrument the whole day is a waste of time and they should study instead ?
It's not because you value having that kind of job this much that other people feel like you, Destiny enjoys streaming, he's not using streaming to kickstart his carreer as the CEO of microsoft. It's Ironic how you say "A hard physical worker could think my job isn't a real job" and then you proceed to do the EXACT SAME THING. Instead of a "hard worker" bashing a tech job, you're a "Guy working for a company" bashing someone that is self-employed.
of course this considering that you actually have the talent for technology/math etc.
so your tip to people is to "try to be born talented" ? Good advice.
On January 21 2013 03:09 NumberFive wrote: People bashing streaming and progaming in this tread as not being "real jobs" should really get a hold of themselves, it are the same disgusting comments that flooded the Gamespot thread about Quantic disbanding. Do you consider being an athlete a "real job" ? Like football players for example ? Do you consider being a television star like a news anchor, a sports commentator, a talk show host, and so on a "real job" ? After all, it's all the same thing, it's sports or entertainement in general.
I can just picture those haters as spoiled brats that grew up with the idea that some jobs are not meant for them and of 'lesser value', like being a gardener for example (I've seriously heard that before), and that they were meant to grow up to study and get a "real job". Except that job isn't really what they wanted, so now when they see someone that enjoys what they do, they are jealous and bash them for having picked a "fake job", which caused all their problems.
that's some terrible psychoanalysis at the end of your post;)
but yeah I agree it can be looked at as a real job.
I use a computer software to create 3D content for my company, maybe some hard physical worker thinks this isn't a real job either.
but people are also right in the sense that playing a game all day and streaming is not something that gives you valuable knowledge or experience. even less than that because if you ever apply for an actual job at a company that 6 years in your resume that u spent playing all day is actually a HUGE disadvantage for you.
and it isn't actually worth if financially for a lot of people I hear. It's ok for Stephano because he's still young, he makes a lot and he can still study whatever he wants. Or for Nerchio, he attends a college and treats sc2 as a hobby not as a job.
now for Destiny.... he's the other pole. he made ok-ish money but now no employer will ever hire him for a good job because of a google search (and serious employers do google/facebook etc you),
this "job" isn't something that makes your life and career move forward... it hinders you more than it helps in the long run. it's different in Korea because it's really accepted there. but if you live in a country where education is free (basically all european countries, for example in Norway it's even free for EVERY FOREIGNER), there is no excuse to not study something and prepare yourself for the real life. playing a game all day is a dead end from so many aspects. in 5-6 years you can become a doctor, an engineer, an architect and you don't even need to put in as much effort as in sc to be good.
I never played as much as these guys, but still regretting all the time I wasted on games, I could have 3 degrees now instead of one....
Destiny also said that the job he enjoyed the most up to now (excluding streaming, because destiny STREAMS for a living, he doesn't compete for a living) was working in a Casino, and that would be the job he would go to if it was really needed. Do you consider working tables in a casino, with a woodwind performance degree, a job that makes your life and carreer move forward ? Just the fact you're talking about "hire him for a good job" makes me fear the worst for your answer
So in 5-6 years someone can become a Doctor, an engineer etc to prepair them for the "real life" according to you. (also:you have to put in less effort in engineering or a doctor to be good, that's actually really wrong.) What if they don't want to be those things and REALLY like and enjoy to be a musician for example ? They practice and try to make it work as a band through gigs, youtube etc. and it's the thing they love doing, but then you would go out and tell them that playing their instrument the whole day is a waste of time and they should study instead ?
It's not because you value having that kind of job this much that other people feel like you, Destiny enjoys streaming, he's not using streaming to kickstart his carreer as the CEO of microsoft. It's Ironic how you say "A hard physical worker could think my job isn't a real job" and then you proceed to do the EXACT SAME THING. Instead of a "hard worker" bashing a tech job, you're a "Guy working for a company" bashing someone that is self-employed.
of course this considering that you actually have the talent for technology/math etc.
so your tip to people is to "try to be born talented" ? Good advice.
what an idiotic question, where did I say you can only be an engineer lol
try to find out what you're talented in, and make a compromise with the Real World. The smaller the compromise is, the better it is for you. If you don't have that talent for math/etc you can't even get in and finish the 1st year as an engineer btw so obviously you need to look for a different solution.
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
On January 20 2013 07:40 birdaholic wrote: I don't like or dislike Destiny, but after reading his reasons, I started to grow hate on him. I mean, come on!, you have a kid, and this is your best effort to support you child? Really? I mean for supplemental income, its reasonable, but as your main source of income and making it as an excuse, WOW!!
Please do explain why that is.
Streaming is not a job simple as that. It might get you money, but it isn't a job. If his real intentions were to secure finances to raise a child he would not be in esports. Think about it. What happens if his stream views go down? Computer parts break? Streaming company goes down? DDOS attacks? ISP has issues? At McDonalds as long as he showed up, flipped his burgers, and did what he was told, he would have a job and know that in only very rare instances would he not have a paycheck. All of that doesn't really matter he just wants his money that owned promised him, I just don't like that he uses having a kid as his point because clearly if his sole intention was to have a job that would allow him to raise his child, he would not be streaming.
Btw owned sucked anyways I don't understand why streamers used them.
Also where is the common sense from these gamers? These aren't mom and pop shops where some people might wait a month for a paycheck. These are supposedly financially secure websites. If you don't get paid, you should bring it up immediately, but it sounds like some people sat on this information many months past when they should have received their pay check.
So every form of self-employment that doesn't answer to a corporate boss is not a job to you?
Jesus christ, why are some people so narrow-minded?
what he said is true, if you are just starting a family, esports is a very risky investment to make. I certainly wouldn't do it, and I doubt many others would either. It is a brand new industry, full of risks and holes.... and yes showing up to mcdonalds and flipping burgers is a more stable way to feed a child. He is just using his family, and his child to amplify his shitstorm on own3d. Both parties involved are not very smart
If you have years of data showing that you are able to work in any field and make x amount of dollars on average, which is either well above what you're estimating your expenses will be or have sufficient savings in order to take losses that may occur, there is absolutely nothing too risky about making a living in eSports.
The guy has been streaming for over 2 years and has plenty of data showing what he is making, what he should be making, and estimates on what he lost due to not being paid. There is nothing "not very smart" about what he's doing in the least, and there's nothing sensational about his wording.
He has a child, he needs to support that child, and his contracted agreement with a group was supposed to ensure that at the least he would be paid for the job that he completed. If he saw that his streaming would not be enough, there's nothing to say that he wouldn't have gotten that job at mcdonalds, but that's not the case. He made enough through ad revenue to support his family, assuming he was paid by his employer. He is bringing up the point about his child simply to show that this is not just him being affected here, and to create empathy (which is less sensational, and more honest and effective imo).
You are incredibly stupid, perhaps you are just jealous that your stream didn't take off like destiny's. Money is made in the streaming business, hell I make a fine living off the amount of viewers i get, and it's no where near what destiny gets.
The amount of money he makes, is way more than enough to support his family and himself, and more. Own3d needs to do their part in the contract signed. The fact that you're making an argument that he's self-employed is just ridiculous, and he's speaking up about this because he's NOT THE ONLY PERSON who's getting screwed.
I'm sure if you saw the destiny's numbers you would shit your pants, because then you'd keep your mouth shut about things you have no clue about. Personally, what I get from your message is just someone who's starting flame and bringing up nonsensical bullshit and attacking someone who doesn't deserve to be attacked.
So you're calling someone else incredibly stupid and not me, right?
Nope, pretty sure you just got totally shit on by two different people that make a living off of streaming.
Agree with a point someone is making, call them incredibly stupid. Winning.
Speak for someone else without understanding the conversation, imply they've been "shit on" for making a point that those "shitting on them" agreed with. Also winning.
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
I don't understand why anyone is talking about Destiny's career choice, personality or whatever. The thread is not about what he chose as a career. It's about a company breaching a contract, and basically stealing his money. It doesn't matter what field that's in, that's crime.
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
He had a contract. There can't be a discussion if he had a "job" at own3d, or better, there only can be a discussion if you completely neglect the contract.
If a company wants to pay me 10k for playing with my feet 3 hours a day, then it's my job to play with my feet 3 hours a day. If they don't pay me for that, then it is not "not a real job", but a company breaking a legal contract between employer and employee. Where on earth does this "real job" even come from? Is "professional footballer" a real job? Because you can get screwed there as well (in fact, in germany a soccerteam [Alemannia Aachen] can't pay it's players anymore).
People are referring to "McDonalds" to get "a real job as burgerflipper". What if you have a job at a small company in a bad economic situation, let's say a small, private supermarket - and next door opens a walmart (or whatever a cheap discounter in the US is)? It will die, leaving your "safe, real job" kinda dead. Or internet cafes, all internet cafes i know of which opened in the ~90s are dead, because everyone has internet now. There are no "real" or "fake-jobs", there is stuff you get payed for. Destiny (which i actually really dislike) got paid for streaming. Or in this case, did not get paid.
The fact alone that he could support his family for over half a year without a real income should actually tell you that he had a decent income in his job, these savings came from somewhere. I dare to say that he made more money than 80% of the people on this forum (and still would, or does, whatever his situation is).
Sometimes this forum just seems really, REALLY retarded to me. Especially if some "special guys" try to explain that something is not a real job, because, well.. Because you PLAY for money and don't get dirty fingernails.
PS: my parents were selfemployed when i was born, they had a small bakery. Does not seem to be unusual (to be honest, it's way more unusual to see so many people discussing that you need to be "grown up" and "be an employee", not to mention "get a real job" or especially "its irresponsible to be self employed as a parent").
I understand that legal defense is expensive, but this situation seems like an opportunity for a lawyer to take a few cases against streaming sites like own3d and establish him/herself as the attorney to hire in such cases. It may only take one or two big cases against streaming sites to shake up the young industry and change how these people do business.
On January 21 2013 12:07 Swiftocino wrote: I understand that legal defense is expensive, but this situation seems like an opportunity for a lawyer to take a few cases against streaming sites like own3d and establish him/herself as the attorney to hire in such cases. It may only take one or two big cases against streaming sites to shake up the young industry and change how these people do business.
Their jurisdiction is in Austria/EU (noted in ToS), i guess that would discourage me as well (the other way around). I would not try to sue a company in the US for less money than i would need to pay the lawyer.
Edit: also, there aren't that much streaming sites which ripoff their streamers/are bankrupt, so i don't believe that a lawyer would see an opportunity/niché there.
So I work for a company that sell ad space for a streaming company (Not Own3d and that's actually my job). So let me explain the process:
1) We pitch to companies who are interested. These are usually your tech giants. 2) Assuming that they are agreeable, they have a buy in and they sign the insertion order. 3) We insert the ads (Campaign Runs). 4) They have 45 to 60 days to pay us once the insertion is made, or there will be a penalty fee. 5) Once we get the money, we pay out the company's percentage. We're given 60 days, but it's usually within 14 - 30 days.
We're talking about 3 to 6 months time frame. A well-managed company will have the capital to tide this (like Twitch). Twitch has also has the fortune of being partners with an established media owner (CBSi). In the long run, a company should be earning more than it is giving out, and it is up to streaming companies to pay their assets on time.
It's probably already been said, but its time more people voted with their feet and stopped streaming through own3d. Given their whole business hinges on having content to serve commercials, i'm just gobsmacked that they would take some of their biggest content creators for such a ride, thats disgusting.
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you just proved that you didn't read anything what I wrote, why the hell are you talking to me then? lol
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you just proved that you didn't read anything what I wrote, why the hell are you talking to me then? lol
actually i read what you wrote and he makes a point. why is it ridiculous that someone can money from streaming? it's a job, and you don't need to spend thousands of dollars educating yourself to do it, you simply need to be good at a game or entertaining. I'd venture to say alot of people iin the world who makes lots of money with no education. so youre point is retarded
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you just proved that you didn't read anything what I wrote, why the hell are you talking to me then? lol
actually i read what you wrote and he makes a point. why is it ridiculous that someone can money from streaming? it's a job, and you don't need to spend thousands of dollars educating yourself to do it, you simply need to be good at a game or entertaining. I'd venture to say alot of people iin the world who makes lots of money with no education. so youre point is retarded
we just had 2 blocks of text (before HIS post) about me, and then he says "you're obviously a wealthy businessman" lol no he didn't read me. also I didn't say it's ridiculous, I was implying that it's lame in the world's eyes and that is true my friend, even if he earns money with it
also basically in the epicentre of everything I said was that he's responsible for his family and that changes things, I over emphasized it and you managed to miss it, gz.
learn to fucking read before you argue with someone. and also *your
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you just proved that you didn't read anything what I wrote, why the hell are you talking to me then? lol
actually i read what you wrote and he makes a point. why is it ridiculous that someone can money from streaming? it's a job, and you don't need to spend thousands of dollars educating yourself to do it, you simply need to be good at a game or entertaining. I'd venture to say alot of people iin the world who makes lots of money with no education. so youre point is retarded
we just had 2 blocks of text (before HIS post) about me, and then he says "you're obviously a wealthy businessman" lol no he didn't read me. also I didn't say it's ridiculous, I was implying that it's lame in the world's eyes and that is true my friend, even if he earns money with it
also basically in the epicentre of everything I said was that he's responsible for his family and that changes things, I over emphasized it and you managed to miss it, gz.
learn to fucking read before you argue with someone. and also *your
Damn I almost fed the troll. Lucky i got that new detector!
On January 21 2013 23:31 ProTech wrote: in the middle of a game responding to your post, sorry can't think about grammar and what you said is rude and inappropriate
rude maybe but not inappropriate at all. you can't expect to read half a sentence out of 30, reply to it (the reply is naturally nonsense) after quoting me and look smart.
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you just proved that you didn't read anything what I wrote, why the hell are you talking to me then? lol
actually i read what you wrote and he makes a point. why is it ridiculous that someone can money from streaming? it's a job, and you don't need to spend thousands of dollars educating yourself to do it, you simply need to be good at a game or entertaining. I'd venture to say alot of people iin the world who makes lots of money with no education. so youre point is retarded
we just had 2 blocks of text (before HIS post) about me, and then he says "you're obviously a wealthy businessman" lol no he didn't read me. also I didn't say it's ridiculous, I was implying that it's lame in the world's eyes and that is true my friend, even if he earns money with it
also basically in the epicentre of everything I said was that he's responsible for his family and that changes things, I over emphasized it and you managed to miss it, gz.
learn to fucking read before you argue with someone. and also *your
Damn I almost fed the troll. Lucky i got that new detector!
amazing detector you got there. I explained that I am an engineer, and that I would be top1% of my country if I earned as much as a machine technician in USA, and then he calls me a wealthy businessman. did you get your troll detector in the same shop as he did his reading skills?
On January 21 2013 23:31 ProTech wrote: in the middle of a game responding to your post, sorry can't think about grammar and what you said is rude and inappropriate
rude maybe but not inappropriate at all. you can't expect to read half a sentence out of 30, reply to it (the reply is naturally nonsense) after quoting me and look smart.
no i read what you said. you think it's ridiculous that people can make money from " e-sports. " it's the same as any job, you put time and effort into it, and you get rewarded for doing so. it's the same fucking thing as being an entertainer or a stand comedian. if people like you, you're going to get a fan base, and when you have a fan base you're going to make money. just because someone didn't go to college and isn't as " educated " about as much useless stuff as you are, doesn't make them any less of a person, and that's what I get from your message.
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you just proved that you didn't read anything what I wrote, why the hell are you talking to me then? lol
actually i read what you wrote and he makes a point. why is it ridiculous that someone can money from streaming? it's a job, and you don't need to spend thousands of dollars educating yourself to do it, you simply need to be good at a game or entertaining. I'd venture to say alot of people iin the world who makes lots of money with no education. so youre point is retarded
we just had 2 blocks of text (before HIS post) about me, and then he says "you're obviously a wealthy businessman" lol no he didn't read me. also I didn't say it's ridiculous, I was implying that it's lame in the world's eyes and that is true my friend, even if he earns money with it
also basically in the epicentre of everything I said was that he's responsible for his family and that changes things, I over emphasized it and you managed to miss it, gz.
learn to fucking read before you argue with someone. and also *your
Damn I almost fed the troll. Lucky i got that new detector!
amazing detector you got there. I explained that I am an engineer, and that I would be top1% of my country if I earned as much as a machine technician in USA, and then he calls me a wealthy businessman. did you get your troll detector in the same shop as he did his reading skills?
Coming into a thread where legitimate streamers are trying to expose how they have been scammed by a company and saying:
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
On January 21 2013 23:31 ProTech wrote: in the middle of a game responding to your post, sorry can't think about grammar and what you said is rude and inappropriate
rude maybe but not inappropriate at all. you can't expect to read half a sentence out of 30, reply to it (the reply is naturally nonsense) after quoting me and look smart.
no i read what you said. you think it's ridiculous that people can make money from " e-sports. " it's the same as any job, you put time and effort into it, and you get rewarded for doing so. it's the same fucking thing as being an entertainer or a stand comedian. if people like you, you're going to get a fan base, and when you have a fan base you're going to make money. just because someone didn't go to college and isn't as " educated " about as much useless stuff as you are, doesn't make them any less of a person, and that's what I get from your message.
What is there to say... Some people are so formated that when you step out of the regular grow up -> study -> get job -> retire -> look back and bitch about how you never got to do what you wanted to, they feel an urge to be critical.
I will not give any information about my own life, but I laugh out loud when people still believe that a diploma will get you a job, and not having one will mean you wont be able to support a family.
On January 21 2013 23:31 ProTech wrote: in the middle of a game responding to your post, sorry can't think about grammar and what you said is rude and inappropriate
rude maybe but not inappropriate at all. you can't expect to read half a sentence out of 30, reply to it (the reply is naturally nonsense) after quoting me and look smart.
no i read what you said. you think it's ridiculous that people can make money from " e-sports. " it's the same as any job, you put time and effort into it, and you get rewarded for doing so. it's the same fucking thing as being an entertainer or a stand comedian. if people like you, you're going to get a fan base, and when you have a fan base you're going to make money. just because someone didn't go to college and isn't as " educated " about as much useless stuff as you are, doesn't make them any less of a person, and that's what I get from your message.
I didn't say this it is ridiculous, I said it's lame- not the same thing.
also I see now that I have to explain it to you like to a 4 year old, if you have a child and a woman that you have to support, an education and a good stable job is a tiny bit more responsible way to support them than showing your dick, your racist vocabulary etc etc to the entire planet while playing an idiotic game 6 hours per day- money is literally the only reason to act like scenario 2, and as it seems even that's problematic for him. so please try to respond to me more intelligently, because it seems you don't have any arguments just are butthurt cuz you're a streamer too and on top of that you're not educated (when in fact i didn't even say that non-educated are less...). do you have a child and a woman that you have to support? did you miss the part where I wrote it's ok to do it if you don't have a child and woman?
and if you wanna determine whether it's lame or not lame- my opinion doesn't even matter, i'm just a random smartass on the internet- try to pick up a girl by explaining to him you play league of legends all day for money, and the % of girls you impress with it directly correlates to the coolness of this "job"
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you just proved that you didn't read anything what I wrote, why the hell are you talking to me then? lol
actually i read what you wrote and he makes a point. why is it ridiculous that someone can money from streaming? it's a job, and you don't need to spend thousands of dollars educating yourself to do it, you simply need to be good at a game or entertaining. I'd venture to say alot of people iin the world who makes lots of money with no education. so youre point is retarded
we just had 2 blocks of text (before HIS post) about me, and then he says "you're obviously a wealthy businessman" lol no he didn't read me. also I didn't say it's ridiculous, I was implying that it's lame in the world's eyes and that is true my friend, even if he earns money with it
also basically in the epicentre of everything I said was that he's responsible for his family and that changes things, I over emphasized it and you managed to miss it, gz.
learn to fucking read before you argue with someone. and also *your
Damn I almost fed the troll. Lucky i got that new detector!
amazing detector you got there. I explained that I am an engineer, and that I would be top1% of my country if I earned as much as a machine technician in USA, and then he calls me a wealthy businessman. did you get your troll detector in the same shop as he did his reading skills?
Coming into a thread where legitimate streamers are trying to expose how they have been scammed by a company and saying:
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
is defintily looking for a fight.
i'm not against a good argument at any time, and I didn't insult anyone and wasn't trolling, so "looking for a fight" should be a good argument? none of you actually have any true argument how his behavior is is in any way more responsible than what I suggest, you just jump at half sentences of mine and argue really really bad because you think i'm a little condescending? an argument shouldn't be so emotional, it should be rational.
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you just proved that you didn't read anything what I wrote, why the hell are you talking to me then? lol
actually i read what you wrote and he makes a point. why is it ridiculous that someone can money from streaming? it's a job, and you don't need to spend thousands of dollars educating yourself to do it, you simply need to be good at a game or entertaining. I'd venture to say alot of people iin the world who makes lots of money with no education. so youre point is retarded
we just had 2 blocks of text (before HIS post) about me, and then he says "you're obviously a wealthy businessman" lol no he didn't read me. also I didn't say it's ridiculous, I was implying that it's lame in the world's eyes and that is true my friend, even if he earns money with it
also basically in the epicentre of everything I said was that he's responsible for his family and that changes things, I over emphasized it and you managed to miss it, gz.
learn to fucking read before you argue with someone. and also *your
Haha yeah that's the end of the dicussion I guess, the troll was succesfull up to the point of "we just had 2 blocks of text (before HIS post) about me, and then he says "you're obviously a wealthy businessman" lol no he didn't read me" Nobody is that stupid and obvious to sarcasm. We should've understood he was trolling earlier, he gave plenty of clues
Either that, which seem more and more obvious, either he's a horrible person. I loved the part when he said "i'm not against a good argument at any time". Indeed you are a GOD at argumenting: Ignore points made by others, DODGE QUESTIONS like no tomorrow, and somehow convince yourself you're making legit points all while being condescending. The internet in a nutshell people, where trolls/idiots like him can hide behind their screens, either fabricating themselves a life they don't have or spreading their stupid opinions in all safety without having to fear the consequences. The internet in a nutshell.
you can also finish a tech school to be a machine operator/technician/etc which takes 2 years at most, but most of them are just half year or 1 year, and earn fucking 5-6k in the USA as a machine operator at an injection molding industry or something like that, which is fucking DREAM MONEY, upper 1% in my country, and require waaaaaay less commitment and effort and talent than a degree, and you can have a good carreer. Granted not many people love the industry but I happen to, that's why I'm talking about it- there are probably other ways and jobs too.
Or if someone can't even finish a school like that, don't get girls pregnant etc if you can't support them. This thought of mine is not even about Destiny, since he CAN support them if he gets the streaming money, my prevorious posts were about his future, when he possibly won't be able to...
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you just proved that you didn't read anything what I wrote, why the hell are you talking to me then? lol
actually i read what you wrote and he makes a point. why is it ridiculous that someone can money from streaming? it's a job, and you don't need to spend thousands of dollars educating yourself to do it, you simply need to be good at a game or entertaining. I'd venture to say alot of people iin the world who makes lots of money with no education. so youre point is retarded
we just had 2 blocks of text (before HIS post) about me, and then he says "you're obviously a wealthy businessman" lol no he didn't read me. also I didn't say it's ridiculous, I was implying that it's lame in the world's eyes and that is true my friend, even if he earns money with it
also basically in the epicentre of everything I said was that he's responsible for his family and that changes things, I over emphasized it and you managed to miss it, gz.
learn to fucking read before you argue with someone. and also *your
Haha yeah that's the end of the dicussion I guess, the troll was succesfull up to the point of "we just had 2 blocks of text (before HIS post) about me, and then he says "you're obviously a wealthy businessman" lol no he didn't read me" Nobody is that stupid and obvious to sarcasm. We should've understood he was trolling earlier, he gave plenty of clues
hmm no I actually fell into the mistake that I accused others with, and now feel stupid about that, but this is rather because I find you mad and annoying, so I ran through your post and you kept mentioning my money when I already explained it to you that a very average man in the USA makes more than me. to quote you, "nobody is this stupid"
also you have powerful arguments such as "Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that." i have to bow down to this genial deduction
you're so full of fail is not even funny... you're arguing that playing with him + Show Spoiler +
is a good job and that i'm the spoiled brat? let me tell you something, in europe it's not cool to be uneducated and proud about it, for example an AVERAGE swiss citizen speaks like 6 languages and a degree 100%, I'm not special here in EU at all, but when arguing with guys like you, it's hard to not be condescending. you guys make good money off retarded shit while here you wouldn't even make 500 dollars PER MONTH with your "skills". this thread is basically the only place on earth where you can call me a "spoiled brat" and not look totally and utterly ridiculously stupid. whether you're butthurt about this or not, this I don't care about at all lol, I just have the time at the moment to have some fun with you. yeah own3d owes him the money, that's cool by me
On January 21 2013 09:28 Innovation wrote: [quote]
I can completely understand your frustration of the economic inequality between the US and other countries like Ghana for instance. It doesn't seem fair that you, a well educated hard working person don't have the same opportunity to earn the kinds of money we take for granted here in the US. If I was in your position I'd be pissed at anyone complaining about not making enough money from a game when you're working your ass off for a fraction of it.
Hopefully you will get an opportunity in the future be paid in-line with your effort and hard work. We are fortunate enough to have industries where people can be paid to do the things they love, not just what they need to do to get by. All I can say is that I have respect for the work you're doing and hope that you can experience the same luxury in time. Destiny has made some dumb decisions just like all of us; and compared to most people around the world we have little to complain about, but just like you Destiny and other streamers deserve to be paid for what they do.
Perhaps you can use your engineering skills and combine it with online streaming or something else online to earn more money than is possible in your local area? You're obviously very hard working and smart so I'm sure there is opportunity out there for you.
Hah you're very kind, thank you! I'm not mad at Destiny, not at all. I just reply sometimes and derail threads when something catches my eye;) It's actually not as bad as for me, I make pretty good money here compared to the rest, my family is wealthy and food/etc. is really cheap here. I'm Hungarian btw, just the company I work for is in Ghana. And makes my brain ache that people can get good money with -relatively- easy education and they choose not to. not even talking about Destiny at this point, he even inspired me to upload some videos to Youtube (and got some money off the ad venue hehe). He obviously deserves the money and own3d seems like a terrible organization based on all these stories.
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
It actually DOES cut it, when companies actually live up to the contract. and he'll probably be able to continue doing that for a while, as the Esport/internet entertainement business is growing every year ( and he's not a "progamer" but more of an entertainer, he has no trouble switching over to the game that pays the most, like he demosntrated with LoL. He liked sc2 more, but LoL is where the money is and he has a child to feed. ) But I don't think we'll ever convince you otherwise, as you're obviously a wealthy, smart businessman that can't understand why people would NOT prefer getting 'real job Y' over the job X they love and that actually supports them just fine when the contracts aren't broken. Just the fact you assume I have to have a life like Destiny because I'm defending him, and you talk about being wealthy etc. makes me feel you were the kind of spoiled brat I said in my first post, you're full of yourself and you want people to admire you for your "real job" because otherwise you wouldn't tell us all that.
Actually the exact same thing happened not too long ago on Youtube: Ray William Johnson, who makes a shitton of money off youtube and his media projects ( It's safe to say he makes more than you, by a longshot ) had trouble with his producer or something ( Maker Studios) and they were cutting off his ad revenue and holding his accounts as long as he disagreed to sign a bad contract. He went public with the story just like Destiny did, and he's also a smart guy that went full-time into entertainement media production. Would you also bash him for not picking a "real job" and him being in trouble at that moment, even though he makes way more than you ?
you just proved that you didn't read anything what I wrote, why the hell are you talking to me then? lol
actually i read what you wrote and he makes a point. why is it ridiculous that someone can money from streaming? it's a job, and you don't need to spend thousands of dollars educating yourself to do it, you simply need to be good at a game or entertaining. I'd venture to say alot of people iin the world who makes lots of money with no education. so youre point is retarded
we just had 2 blocks of text (before HIS post) about me, and then he says "you're obviously a wealthy businessman" lol no he didn't read me. also I didn't say it's ridiculous, I was implying that it's lame in the world's eyes and that is true my friend, even if he earns money with it
also basically in the epicentre of everything I said was that he's responsible for his family and that changes things, I over emphasized it and you managed to miss it, gz.
learn to fucking read before you argue with someone. and also *your
Damn I almost fed the troll. Lucky i got that new detector!
amazing detector you got there. I explained that I am an engineer, and that I would be top1% of my country if I earned as much as a machine technician in USA, and then he calls me a wealthy businessman. did you get your troll detector in the same shop as he did his reading skills?
Coming into a thread where legitimate streamers are trying to expose how they have been scammed by a company and saying:
it's just my personal opinion that a smart guy like Destiny should try to educate himself and get a stable job, because this whole e-sport thingy doesn't cut if if you want to support your whole family. he's not that old, he's even younger than me... you have to step up at being a grownup if you knock up a girl or you're a douchebag, that's how I feel.
is defintily looking for a fight.
i'm not against a good argument at any time, and I didn't insult anyone and wasn't trolling, so "looking for a fight" should be a good argument? none of you actually have any true argument how his behavior is is in any way more responsible than what I suggest, you just jump at half sentences of mine and argue really really bad because you think i'm a little condescending? an argument shouldn't be so emotional, it should be rational.
So companies shouldn't honour contracts with Destiny because he has no education? I agree that the whole e-sports thing isn't entirely stable, that's the point in signing a contract, it's supposed to guarantee a stable income. >_<
I used to really like own3D a lot. I thought they were one of the best streaming companies around. Far superior to Livestream and UStream.
But this was before justin.tv switched to twitch.tv - twitch has real marketing people, and real dollars into eSports. I'm not saying that own3D doesn't fund eSports, because that is simply not the case. They do, but it seems they don't invest in themselves. How can you seriously have a streaming site where VOD's do not enable seeking? How come I cannot fast forward into a fucking video on the internet?
I will say this: own3D has far superior stability. But I truly believe that is due to the fact that they have 1/10th the viewers of twitch.tv
As a corporation, they have seriously fucked themselves. What happened to Steven really doesn't bother nor concern me - I am more concerned at the fact that an internet-based company is not willing to invest in itself to be as good as it can be, and rather is trying to compete by simply sponsoring tournaments.
P.S.: If anyone can find a way to interview CLG to see how their contracts are doing, I would really appreciate it. There are some gigantic asian teams that stream on own3D, and they must have inquired about the same thing. Curious if this is a cultural issue or a global issue.
Day 23: The troll goes in again, still hasn't understood most of the people he "debated" with are from the EU and all have a job/are studying. Still hasn't understood he isn't debating with progamers but with other people, but that those people are reasonable and not a bunch of spoiled children that are stuck in a box. Love how he admits people can make "good money off retarded shit" and his core problem was that destiny would not be able to feed his family with streaming in the future. ---> king of debates.
It's becoming painfully obvious you're trolling, you'll have to leave the topic soon.
Either that, which seem more and more obvious, either he's a horrible person. I loved the part when he said "i'm not against a good argument at any time". Indeed you are a GOD at argumenting: Ignore points made by others, DODGE QUESTIONS like no tomorrow, and somehow convince yourself you're making legit points all while being condescending. The internet in a nutshell people, where trolls/idiots like him can hide behind their screens, either fabricating themselves a life they don't have or spreading their stupid opinions in all safety without having to fear the consequences. The internet in a nutshell.
there is no such thing as "dodging questions" in a team liquid thread, i won't take the time to respond to your every sentence. and me being condescending doesn't change anything...
in my last post I highlighted one of your arguments, after that you shouldn't say anything at all. anyways i'm off, this is no longer fun
feel free to kid yourselves on that you defended the majesty of being a lol streamer and that i'm "trolling" lol
On January 22 2013 00:37 NumberFive wrote: Day 23: The troll goes in again, still hasn't understood most of the people he "debated" with are from the EU and all have a job/are studying. Still hasn't understood he isn't debating with progamers but with other people, but that those people are reasonable and not a bunch of spoiled children that are stuck in a box. Love how he admits people can make "good money off retarded shit" and his core problem was that destiny would not be able to feed his family with streaming in the future. ---> king of debates.
It's becoming painfully obvious you're trolling, you'll have to leave the topic soon.
Called it, thanks for leaving the topic, go troll elsewhere with your "Amazing debating skills". People on the internet sometimes, I swear. The good thing is that this works in both cases for this person: Either he's a troll and he got out because people noticed it. Either he's not a troll but in his case that makes him an awful individual, and making them feel bad is needed.
You believe every job title someone gives himself on an internet forum? Just because he throws around some numbers? I don't find any insights in this post; just expression of greatness.
Are you somehow personally offended by this? Did it hurt your feelings?
There are facts and then there are opinions. It just happens that in this industry there are hard facts and it seemed like a few needed to be dropped on the uninformed. I have no problem if you feel the need to advocate for your kind.
I don't even know what my kind is, even less what you think it is. You back up facts with "I influence Billions of Dollars, so I have to know" and threatening Own3d with your imaginary powers. If that does not sound like a high horse, I don't know what does.
Another thing that routinely gets me stumped in this debate is: if he was that concerned solely about money, why not go back to SC2? he would routinely get 10k viewers playing SC2, not that I don’t support the decision to go to League of Legends, (any pro would agree the superior game, lol kidding they both have their own merits and still like watching SC2) but if money was the only issue for him I can’t see the 2.5k viewers with League comparing to his SC2 following,
If we assume half of people use add-blocking still, 5k viewers means every time he runs a commercial he would be getting 5x the CPM.
That being said the desicion to go to League was his choice, and I’m sure he weighed the benefits of it wrt dollar amounts, keeping in the forefront the best interests of his kid and the kids’ mother. If not then there are other issues that play into this situation which none of us can comment on.
However, none of this excuses Own3d from their contractual obligations to pay their players and I’m sad for the industry that things like this happen at such frequency. There were a lot of good points brought up in the ChanmanV interview, not the least of which is the vulnerability of this market as a whole. The fact there are 100 kids who would love to get paid 150 dollars a month to stream games, for every 1 business person trying to grow eSports and make it a legitimate industry makes it so that companies like this are able to continuously make bad financial decisions and still be rewarded for them. Until there is some standard in contract terms and the people signing them educate themselves this problem will not go away completely.
On January 22 2013 01:34 Xliest wrote: Another thing that routinely gets me stumped in this debate is: if he was that concerned solely about money, why not go back to SC2? he would routinely get 10k viewers playing SC2
Actually, no. Destiny is having slightly more viewers now than he had before the switch to LoL.
On January 22 2013 01:34 Xliest wrote: Another thing that routinely gets me stumped in this debate is: if he was that concerned solely about money, why not go back to SC2? he would routinely get 10k viewers playing SC2, not that I don’t support the decision to go to League of Legends, (any pro would agree the superior game, lol kidding they both have their own merits and still like watching SC2) but if money was the only issue for him I can’t see the 2.5k viewers with League comparing to his SC2 following,
If we assume half of people use add-blocking still, 5k viewers means every time he runs a commercial he would be getting 5x the CPM.
That being said the desicion to go to League was his choice, and I’m sure he weighed the benefits of it wrt dollar amounts, keeping in the forefront the best interests of his kid and the kids’ mother. If not then there are other issues that play into this situation which none of us can comment on.
However, none of this excuses Own3d from their contractual obligations to pay their players and I’m sad for the industry that things like this happen at such frequency. There were a lot of good points brought up in the ChanmanV interview, not the least of which is the vulnerability of this market as a whole. The fact there are 100 kids who would love to get paid 150 dollars a month to stream games, for every 1 business person trying to grow eSports and make it a legitimate industry makes it so that companies like this are able to continuously make bad financial decisions and still be rewarded for them. Until there is some standard in contract terms and the people signing them educate themselves this problem will not go away completely.
He explained why switching to LoL was better a LOT of times on his stream and there is even a vid about it. By switching over to LoL now, he loses viewers in the short term, where sc2 would have given him his big audience in the short term, but in the LONG RUN, LoL simply brings in more viewers ( 100K+ on IEM stream or smth ). There is simply a much bigger audience for LoL than sc2 because of how the game IS compared to sc2 ( free, easier, ... ) This is something very important for Destiny, as he relies only on his stream and not on a team salary / tournament results or somthing else. So he's losing viewers now, but in the long run, he opens himself up to a much bigger audience, and in the end he'll have more viewers. And to be totally honest "the short term" is kinda over now. This man had 5k viewers yesterday ( went up and down a lot because he raged yesterday for the first time in WEEKS but it stabilised at 5k ) and that's more than he had in sc2 ALREADY, and he's not even featured on popular sites like LoLking or Leagueoflegends.com.
But back to OWN3D now, as destiny himself should not be the topic here.
Sorry for being slightly in the past, (10k) and thank you for updating me on the stream numbers, i have seen him top out at 3k for the last few months and my point was not about the long term, it was about the now, due to his situation. I have heard him talk about the potential for viewership based on ELO ranking, and while im sure he is good enough to get to the upper teirs of the communitiy and be featured eventually, this was not my intial point.
On January 22 2013 01:34 Xliest wrote: Another thing that routinely gets me stumped in this debate is: if he was that concerned solely about money, why not go back to SC2? he would routinely get 10k viewers playing SC2, not that I don’t support the decision to go to League of Legends, (any pro would agree the superior game, lol kidding they both have their own merits and still like watching SC2) but if money was the only issue for him I can’t see the 2.5k viewers with League comparing to his SC2 following,
If we assume half of people use add-blocking still, 5k viewers means every time he runs a commercial he would be getting 5x the CPM.
That being said the desicion to go to League was his choice, and I’m sure he weighed the benefits of it wrt dollar amounts, keeping in the forefront the best interests of his kid and the kids’ mother. If not then there are other issues that play into this situation which none of us can comment on.
However, none of this excuses Own3d from their contractual obligations to pay their players and I’m sad for the industry that things like this happen at such frequency. There were a lot of good points brought up in the ChanmanV interview, not the least of which is the vulnerability of this market as a whole. The fact there are 100 kids who would love to get paid 150 dollars a month to stream games, for every 1 business person trying to grow eSports and make it a legitimate industry makes it so that companies like this are able to continuously make bad financial decisions and still be rewarded for them. Until there is some standard in contract terms and the people signing them educate themselves this problem will not go away completely.
Your wrong. He was actually doing worst when he was stream SC2. He hasnt top 5k in MONTHS! This is not because he switch to LoL, it because the viewers of all SC2 stream drop dramatically over the past 6 months. Dont believe me? Just check all the sc2 stream numbers and this should be obvious. After switching to LoL, he been getting slightly more viewers but now he just average around 1.5-2.5k. Before it was 1-2k when he was streaming sc2.
On January 22 2013 01:34 Xliest wrote: Another thing that routinely gets me stumped in this debate is: if he was that concerned solely about money, why not go back to SC2? he would routinely get 10k viewers playing SC2, not that I don’t support the decision to go to League of Legends, (any pro would agree the superior game, lol kidding they both have their own merits and still like watching SC2) but if money was the only issue for him I can’t see the 2.5k viewers with League comparing to his SC2 following,
If we assume half of people use add-blocking still, 5k viewers means every time he runs a commercial he would be getting 5x the CPM.
That being said the desicion to go to League was his choice, and I’m sure he weighed the benefits of it wrt dollar amounts, keeping in the forefront the best interests of his kid and the kids’ mother. If not then there are other issues that play into this situation which none of us can comment on.
However, none of this excuses Own3d from their contractual obligations to pay their players and I’m sad for the industry that things like this happen at such frequency. There were a lot of good points brought up in the ChanmanV interview, not the least of which is the vulnerability of this market as a whole. The fact there are 100 kids who would love to get paid 150 dollars a month to stream games, for every 1 business person trying to grow eSports and make it a legitimate industry makes it so that companies like this are able to continuously make bad financial decisions and still be rewarded for them. Until there is some standard in contract terms and the people signing them educate themselves this problem will not go away completely.
Your wrong. He was actually doing worst when he was stream SC2. He hasnt top 5k in MONTHS! This is not because he switch to LoL, it because the viewers of all SC2 stream drop dramatically over the past 6 months. Dont believe me? Just check all the sc2 stream numbers and this should be obvious. After switching to LoL, he been getting slightly more viewers but now he just average around 1.5-2.5k. Before it was 1-2k when he was streaming sc2.
On a slightly fairer note, keep in mind that there was hardly a single month when the WoL scene was booming where Destiny --DIDN'T-- do something incredibly stupid that would have lost him some fans. (let alone sponsors/teams etc). It's just one blunder to the next, and so on. He certainly lost me after the whole Bluetea vs Destiny "Who can show more naked pics of the other guy" quarrel. A lot of opportunity lost every time.
He's right though, at this point LoL is the best thing he's got going for him. Destiny can be big in LoL the same way he would've been big in SC2: not being a dumbass.
On January 22 2013 02:40 JackReacher wrote: Since when do people care what destiny think or says? That damn attention-starved kid has exhausted every last bit of his credibility, and then some.
If you read the thread it's not only Destiny saying it- a bunch of people haven't been payed by own3d.
On January 22 2013 02:40 JackReacher wrote: Since when do people care what destiny think or says? That damn attention-starved kid has exhausted every last bit of his credibility, and then some.
At least read the thread, but that's probably asking too much. Some attention starved kids just like to spew out uninformed nonsense I guess.
On January 22 2013 02:40 JackReacher wrote: Since when do people care what destiny think or says? That damn attention-starved kid has exhausted every last bit of his credibility, and then some.
Quite ironic of you to say, and I would love to see how he "exhausted" his credibility that you speak of, if you're looking for proof all of it is in the article..that is if you actually read the article but, maybe it's safe to say you didn't because of your strong bias here.
On January 22 2013 02:40 JackReacher wrote: Since when do people care what destiny think or says? That damn attention-starved kid has exhausted every last bit of his credibility, and then some.
Looks like this attention-starved kid found a new way to get attention. A tip for your future endeavors in getting people mad so they give you attention : Read the topic and the replies, and then preach some really constructive hate. Then people will really be mad at you, because now you can just be dismissed as a childish hater, and that's not what you want right ?
On January 22 2013 02:40 JackReacher wrote: Since when do people care what destiny think or says? That damn attention-starved kid has exhausted every last bit of his credibility, and then some.
lol classic destiny hater. doesn't even read OP. just clicks last page and writes some shit like this.
When Husky comes out and basically tells it like it is when it comes to esports you know it is trouble.
Everyone should watch the documentary "Frag", you will likely have a very different view on pro gaming. It is a shame because there are alot of hard working people who are taken advantage off by major sponsors who really dont give a rats ass for the most part, few do, majority do not.
Your kind was referring to the "uninformed". Seemed like that was fairly obvious.
My reference to the fact that I control billions of ad dollars was meant as a reassurance to those streaming that there are people out there, like myself, who have the ability to make a difference in this situation who are supporting them. What do you have against people who are successful or influential? What I said was simply a fact and a show of support to the streamers.
Would you rather I not support the streamers when their contracts are not honored?
On January 22 2013 02:40 JackReacher wrote: Since when do people care what destiny think or says? That damn attention-starved kid has exhausted every last bit of his credibility, and then some.
Please change your name...The book series and the movie are in fact quite good and having worked hundreds of hours on the film I don't appreciate trolls using it.
On January 22 2013 01:34 Xliest wrote: Another thing that routinely gets me stumped in this debate is: if he was that concerned solely about money, why not go back to SC2? he would routinely get 10k viewers playing SC2, not that I don’t support the decision to go to League of Legends, (any pro would agree the superior game, lol kidding they both have their own merits and still like watching SC2) but if money was the only issue for him I can’t see the 2.5k viewers with League comparing to his SC2 following,
If we assume half of people use add-blocking still, 5k viewers means every time he runs a commercial he would be getting 5x the CPM.
That being said the desicion to go to League was his choice, and I’m sure he weighed the benefits of it wrt dollar amounts, keeping in the forefront the best interests of his kid and the kids’ mother. If not then there are other issues that play into this situation which none of us can comment on.
However, none of this excuses Own3d from their contractual obligations to pay their players and I’m sad for the industry that things like this happen at such frequency. There were a lot of good points brought up in the ChanmanV interview, not the least of which is the vulnerability of this market as a whole. The fact there are 100 kids who would love to get paid 150 dollars a month to stream games, for every 1 business person trying to grow eSports and make it a legitimate industry makes it so that companies like this are able to continuously make bad financial decisions and still be rewarded for them. Until there is some standard in contract terms and the people signing them educate themselves this problem will not go away completely.
Your wrong. He was actually doing worst when he was stream SC2. He hasnt top 5k in MONTHS! This is not because he switch to LoL, it because the viewers of all SC2 stream drop dramatically over the past 6 months. Dont believe me? Just check all the sc2 stream numbers and this should be obvious. After switching to LoL, he been getting slightly more viewers but now he just average around 1.5-2.5k. Before it was 1-2k when he was streaming sc2.
On a slightly fairer note, keep in mind that there was hardly a single month when the WoL scene was booming where Destiny --DIDN'T-- do something incredibly stupid that would have lost him some fans. (let alone sponsors/teams etc). It's just one blunder to the next, and so on. He certainly lost me after the whole Bluetea vs Destiny "Who can show more naked pics of the other guy" quarrel. A lot of opportunity lost every time.
He's right though, at this point LoL is the best thing he's got going for him. Destiny can be big in LoL the same way he would've been big in SC2: not being a dumbass.
Actually, having gone through a hundred hours mostly in pub games on LOL, I will insist on the fact that being a dumbass will actually get him viewers. LoL is the first time where the communauty is the UNIQUE reason I will never launch that game again.
On January 20 2013 09:38 NoobSkills wrote: Streaming is not a job simple as that.
Lmao /agree
I am Sr. Manager of analytics for one of the worlds largest advertising agencies. It's my job to know how this all works. Despite your uninformed opinion streaming is in fact a lucrative job for those that have a decent audience. A streamer with the average viewership of Destiny with a decent rev-share agreement can make about 50K (gross) a year streaming about 4 hours per day every day. Even at 7 days a week that's a decent living for just a 28 hour work week.
(Numbers based upon average of 2K viewership & 4 ad breaks per hour with 3 ads per break and a 2$ cpm rev-share agreement which amounts to approximately 6.7% of what the site is likely making from him)
If Destiny is not being paid for several months of work or more that means he's easily lost thousands of dollars which is a big deal. Even though I'm not a big fan of his antics, I wouldn't wish this upon anyone trying to make a living the best way they know how.
As I have significant influence in where billions of ad dollars are spent every year I can assure you that if this turns out to be true Own3d will lose significant revenue via the loss of my accounts.
Interesting but fairly incomplete point of view - being in this business, surely you must know it's more complicated than that.
You're assuming a constant fill rate all over the year, no capping on the campaigns and not taking into account the GEOs viewers come from. And let's not forget advertising being a highly periodic business. September to December, ad money sure is there. January to May? Not that much.
My (educated) guess is that own3d.tv is no evil, it's just a start-up company struggling to keep alive : bandwidth/servers (but mostly bandwidth) costs probably have jumped skyrocket, and they don't have enough sales power to bring in enough cash to sustain the business - their margin being cut deep by revshare deals they had to strike with streamers so as not to fall too far behind twitch.
Well, they probably can't pay their employees AND bandwidth at all at the moment - I wouldn't expect rev share money to be paid anytime soon
Slasher said that the interview with Own3d COO, Oleg, might happen sometime next week or so. Maybe even in Live on Three, but nothing confirmed or sure.
Just as a side note, I find it annoying and / or disgusting that you have to preface factual evidence with a popular or controversial person's name to attract attention in this community.
On January 24 2013 10:26 Caihead wrote: Just as a side note, I find it annoying and / or disgusting that you have to preface factual evidence with a popular or controversial person's name to attract attention in this community.
.. Destiny is the person that brought most of this to the public's eye?
On January 24 2013 10:26 Caihead wrote: Just as a side note, I find it annoying and / or disgusting that you have to preface factual evidence with a popular or controversial person's name to attract attention in this community.
.. Destiny is the person that brought most of this to the public's eye?
And other organizations have already said similar things? Some even before this? Some of which is linked directly in this thread?
On January 18 2013 11:10 Fionn wrote: I never used Own3d.
I have a rule that I don't trust companies that use leet speak. It's a rule that most of the world should follow.
Valve owns Dota 2 and they use "pwn" all the time in game :x
Have you ever played DotA? It's been saying "x has pwn x head" for quite a few years now, 2004 or 2005 I think. DOTA2 is a 1:1 port so it's to be expected to have it in there.
On January 25 2013 03:11 Badinoff wrote: Naniwa just tweeted that Own3d is shutting down in 2 weeks, and that he's still owed $500 from 2011. No source on the shutdown yet.
I think this was because of Slasher was talking about it in Lo3 last night. He did say something about couple of weeks and how Machinima was close to make a deal with Own3d/buying Own3d or something.
You can listen the bit, VoD's out in the OneMoreGameTV's chnnel.
As a law student, if the amount is not more then 5K then you can just take the claim straight to small claims court, depending on your jurisdiction and the limits placed on the court, I know LA is 5K. It will cost between $400-$550 to file a claim in small claims court in LA. Other cities may be more or less just depends. This affords you a day in court against whomever your claim is against and if they do not show, you will receive a default judgment. There is no need for a lawyer in this setting as you can represent yourself and HAVE to be present. No representation by proxy or attorney in most jurisdictions.
There is probably, if the corporation is smart, jurisdictional clauses within the contract which make it a pain in the ass. These clauses stipulated any claims arising out of the contract will be subject to X state/city laws and will heard only in X city. So for instance, you live in Europe or Florida or wherever you call home, but the contract with Own3d has a jurisdictional clause stating any claims have to be filled in San Francisco county court, then you would have to file your claim in SF. Thus it may not be worth it.
You can also have an attorney write up a demand letter, usually $100-$300 depending. A demand letter involves an attorney applying legal analysis to the situation and demanding the company either pay or do whatever in accordance to the agreement. The threat of litigation can sometimes be enough.
There are different avenues you can take. Arbitration is another remedy and is usually inexpensive. There are also forums of binding Arbitration. (Like those court shows you see on TV, nothing more then fancy binding arbitration). Instead of doing nothing, you can research the legal remedies available and do something, rather then complaining about how expensive an attorney is. Almost ALL states have a Bar association where you can get a reference and free consultation with an attorney. He may not view your contract but you can go over the situation with him and see what they have to say.
I am going back to reading Property law now but I hope I helped out someone who reads this.
Interesting but fairly incomplete point of view - being in this business, surely you must know it's more complicated than that.
You're assuming a constant fill rate all over the year, no capping on the campaigns and not taking into account the GEOs viewers come from. And let's not forget advertising being a highly periodic business. September to December, ad money sure is there. January to May? Not that much.
My (educated) guess is that own3d.tv is no evil, it's just a start-up company struggling to keep alive : bandwidth/servers (but mostly bandwidth) costs probably have jumped skyrocket, and they don't have enough sales power to bring in enough cash to sustain the business - their margin being cut deep by revshare deals they had to strike with streamers so as not to fall too far behind twitch.
Well, they probably can't pay their employees AND bandwidth at all at the moment - I wouldn't expect rev share money to be paid anytime soon
While you are correct there are many other factors the post was clearly not meant to provide an in-depth analysis but simply to give people an approximation of the potential. Also, own3d does not rely on only direct sales to fill it's inventory but also uses a multitude of network, exchange, DSP/DMP which almost guarantees 100% fill rate. Also you'd be surprised how many campaigns still do not cap, it's pretty sad. Either way the debate is not about minor reconciliation variances about what a streamer thinks he/she should be getting and what they are receiving; it's about own3d not honoring its contracts and not paying at all.
Its becoming clear that they are having issues and I'm not surprised that revshare agreements are the first to lose out but it still doesn't make it right for the streamers who unfortunately are relying on that money to put food on the table. If own3d is essentially going out of business than it doesn't much matter if agencies pressure them to fulfill their contracts but if own3d is getting purchased than the new organization will have to honor the contracts and the streamers will get paid but unfortunately very late.
The best scenario for the streamers in this case if for own3d to be purchased by another healthy organization.
Cadred.org just posted an article about this, that Own3d will be closing its doors withing week or two.
Earlier today rumours had been circulating that Own3d TV, the gaming focused streaming resource that had been embroiled in a long standing battle with Twitch TV, would be closing within two weeks. After speaking to our sources we can confirm this to be the case.
Our anonymous sources close to the situation told us that it was "absolutely true" that Own3d TV would be closing in the next week or so and that they cannot pay the debts they owe and if they liquidate and if advertisers don't pay their streamer contracts that clears them of obligation to pay streamer revenue.
They told us following:
"After a buy-out fell through one week ago it looks like time is up for own3D who will be announcing the end of their operation in the coming days.
Due diligence began in early November for Machinima to buy own3D for a price of five million dollars including debts, however due to a slipping position since that time this deal fell through on Wednesday 16th, last week. Having already failed to raise a venture capital round last summer, Own3D now plan to announce the end of all operations within one week."
They had such a strong opportunity to make it, especially when they started to become larger in the scene by purchasing streamers and creating a popular platform for League streamers. But at the end of the day, not following through on your word and more importantly seriously screwing with their content providers is too much .
Kinda a shame that they are going down... Hopefully they get bought out. Feel sorry for the people that work there that aren't corrupt. Losing your job is never fun...
Well i dont think they are amateurs, just Twitch.tv beeing that good right now. I feel Twitch.tv have been good with getting all the major events and having an awesome layout where i can quickly see what games are beeing streamed and such. Its just a very enjoyable design with a nice chat feature as well.
But its really bad for us that Own3d disappears since competition is needed to get better products out there.
On January 25 2013 05:09 Avean wrote: Well i dont think they are amateurs, just Twitch.tv beeing that good right now. I feel Twitch.tv have been good with getting all the major events and having an awesome layout where i can quickly see what games are beeing streamed and such. Its just a very enjoyable design with a nice chat feature as well.
But its really bad for us that Own3d disappears since competition is needed to get better products out there.
I didn't mean their service is amateurish, I don't have a strong opinion on that. But you HAVE to know how much money it will take to get out and make sure you have that amount at the end.
Delaying payments is an issue but hey, that's life for a money-losing tech company. But at the very end of the day, you can't just throw your hands up and say sorry but you're not paying your vendors and contractors.
I said before that screaming is unhelpful because it won't make them pay faster, but...now's the time to start screaming at people, if nothing else to make sure you're on the list of people they have to pay first.
I do not feel bad for Own3D. Businesses like that should not be in business. I do not like greedy nor incompetent companies, so I hope for strong, yet fair companies will arise, and create win-win situations in this business symbiosis, which is also super-reliable. eSports needs it to grow to something reliant.
If this is anything similar to the traditional broadcasting industry, it is not uncommon to have such delays. There are typically several entities involved in the process exchanging money from start to finish. On an almost worst case scenario you have
Content provider (in this case the streamer) Station (in this case Own3d) Agency (advertiser contracts agencies to make media buys for them) Advertiser Any third-party AR/AP contracted by the above entities to handle cash receipts/payments (it gets even worse since of the contracts/company practice is a 90-day turn around for payment - imagine if the entire chain operates under this assumption)
I have seen over 1 1/2 years delay in some instances due to the factors above. This is why sometimes on smaller TV networks some shows might be cancelled abruptly. They don't have the capital to keep on providing content while waiting for payments. The TV stations don't have the capital to just front them the money while they wait for payment from the agencies, who are waiting for the advertisers.
I am not saying there is no blame in Own3d's hands. Maybe there is. I don't know. But if they are not organized, it would only exacerbate the issue.
Our anonymous sources close to the situation told us that it was "absolutely true" that Own3d TV would be closing in the next week or so and that they cannot pay the debts they owe and if they liquidate and if advertisers don't pay their streamer contracts that clears them of obligation to pay streamer revenue..
This isn't really fair to streamers who switched from twitch over to own3d.tv. I'd be losing out on 5k or so that own3d.tv owes. This is a big blow to 6 months of wasted time. In the real legal world something like this shouldn't be the case and I will probably fight for whats owed as it had a huge impact on my life.
On January 27 2013 16:18 vVvRuFF wrote: Our anonymous sources close to the situation told us that it was "absolutely true" that Own3d TV would be closing in the next week or so and that they cannot pay the debts they owe and if they liquidate and if advertisers don't pay their streamer contracts that clears them of obligation to pay streamer revenue..
This isn't really fair to streamers who switched from twitch over to own3d.tv. I'd be losing out on 5k or so that own3d.tv owes. This is a big blow to 6 months of wasted time. In the real legal world something like this shouldn't be the case and I will probably fight for whats owed as it had a huge impact on my life.
This is the real world. These aren't real companies.