On January 18 2013 11:06 FollowKronborg wrote: Add it to the list of reasons why streamers should use twitch and not pwned
Although ive heard that twitch doesn't deliver but in a different way. DeMuslim was complaining he was getting like 1 dollar for 8 hours of streaming on twitch orso. So, he was guessing why it was so low : Does addblock at viewers side affect income? or is it a twitch-problem? or is he doing something wrong?
Im guessing huskystarcraft is right. In every business that is extremely new, it's like the wildwildwest. Just when the internet hyped on wallstreet, there was a similar wildwildwest. Millions for a company where just 2 people were working is, really really wierd. Well just have to patient until "new business" grows up
Still like twitch tho
Yes adblock does affect streamers (which is why I never adblock streamers), but $1 for 8 hours makes absolutely no sense given the number of peopel watching Demuslim's stream.
It are just growing up probs i guess. All the viewers are satisfied, now, the streamers and the company, and it has a nice future
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
I don't like the guy, and i don't watch his stream, but what you are saying is not right.
Own3d doesn't pay their streamers. Several SC2 pro players who use or used own3d and had confirmed this in this very thread. So yeah, it's not about "Destiny" but so any SC2 people can be aware of the situation aswell.
On January 18 2013 11:06 FollowKronborg wrote: Add it to the list of reasons why streamers should use twitch and not pwned
Although ive heard that twitch doesn't deliver but in a different way. DeMuslim was complaining he was getting like 1 dollar for 8 hours of streaming on twitch orso. So, he was guessing why it was so low : Does addblock at viewers side affect income? or is it a twitch-problem? or is he doing something wrong?
Im guessing huskystarcraft is right. In every business that is extremely new, it's like the wildwildwest. Just when the internet hyped on wallstreet, there was a similar wildwildwest. Millions for a company where just 2 people were working is, really really wierd. Well just have to patient until "new business" grows up
Still like twitch tho
Yes adblock does affect streamers (which is why I never adblock streamers), but $1 for 8 hours makes absolutely no sense given the number of peopel watching Demuslim's stream.
It's also because ads aren't worth shit in january. I recall KingKongor constantly having 2000-2500viewers of the course of 6 hours and the day after he complained that he only earned 6$ that day. So yeah, ads are worthless in january.
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
Tell me why own3D doesn't have any relation to SC2 ? It's not only about Destiny financial problems but also how own3D work with streamer and SC2 community is a part of it. Don't read thread as a no brainer, think it over dude
This is sc2 related with the other quotes, this wouldn't be the case if it was only destiny's issue. Don't be a no brainer, read the whole things you quote/comment.
While I agree that Destiny as a person isn't SC2 related in general, you can't seriously argue that a very popular streaming service essentially being a scam isn't related to this community. Streams are basically the reason this game is popular, the reason that we can watch better or entertaining players, and the way this market makes money. If anything, this post serves as a general warning to anyone trying to make any money whatsoever off of streaming, and even small streamers who may not want to stream now on Own3d based on principle.
What I'm trying to say is that this isn't a post about Destiny, it's a post about a popular SC2 streaming service written by Destiny, who used to be a popular SC2 celebrity which makes it even more relevant.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Not sure if troll or Own3d-owner...
Esports isnt "FUUUUUN", its not something that u can play with your mates after school; "Hey guys, lets play cowboys and indians, nah we did that yesterday, I want to play Esports!".
"Esports" is trying to be a legit business, where people can make a living out of the entertainment.
In order to do so, theres no place for scumbag non-legit companies such as own3d.
Why shouldnt everyone be enlightened about shady business so we, as consumers of the provided entertainment, can do something about it?
I for one am never going to watch another own3d-stream again, will you do your part?
So, esports is not fun, but people want to make a living out of entertainment. Also, own3d is a shady business because a few people there seem to be completely clueless about the point of contracts, and then you're throwing EVERYTHING away own3d.tv did for eSports, stop supporting most korean streamers(LG-IM exclusively streams on own3d, mind you) and the occasional foreigner because of that?
You're doing your part. Your part of being destructive for the community. People like you are the reason major companies will most likely NEVER invest into eSports, because once something goes wrong you all pull out and boycott.
how can we possibly know if own3d did pay any of those people you were talking about? Esports doesnt mean jack unless people can make a living out of it, business first, then the "fun". If workers for any company wouldnt get paid for their work, the system doesnt work.
this moronic, head inside your ass attitude towards companies has to end, its insane to support companies no matter what, companies only want to make a profit, therefore, the way to show a company that you no longer support them, is to take away their profit somehow....
So basically, by not supporting a company that is tricking their employees, im scaring away major companies?
Unless those "MAJOR COMPANIES" youre talking about are shady themselves, I see no reason whatsoever as why they should run away from esports.... youre making absolutely no sense whatsoever.
In fact, the only way to attract "MAJOR COMPANIES" is to sort out the bullshit within esport so people think of esports as a legit business thus a safe investment.
your way of looking at companies as some scared wild animal which we have to approach slowly, carefully with silk-gloves and let them do whatever the hell they wish, makes me so filled with rage that I dont know what to do, im going to go and lift bro, g'day.
So you want eSports to be a money-run business that is not about the game, passion and players behind all of it? You want money to rule everything? eSports as a big business where money's first all the time? eSports always did fine and always will do fine, whether major companies are in it or not. Steelseries is in for 10 years now and they're not planning to go. eSports is still fine even if there are no million-dollar contracts, hell even if there are no contracts at all. eSports isn't about the fucking money. I'm not scared of major companies. I'm scared of people like you running eSports, caring only about how much money they can take out of it.
Although I see eSports as something about passion for the game, I know that there has to be a certain amount of money to sustain it. But as a small business there will always be shady stuff like that. You can't stop that, sadly. But what we as a community have to do is try to SOLVE this together with those companies. Not by shitstorming and boycotting them to death. Why would anybody have motivation to start and try to make money with eSports if they're losing everything when some guy fucks up? Do you even know whether that guy Destiny talked to said the truth? Maybe own3d arranged everything but that guy fucked up. Do you know all the details? No. So what you're doing is assuming that own3d is literally a mafia-like organisation that only tries to fuck over players. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but one thing I can tell you: With your attitude we're never going to find out the truth.
You're saying you want eSports to be business first and then fun. Well, you're actually working against that with your attitude. First of all: There is no entertainment in "Business first". And if you want business out of entertainment, you gotta put the fucking entertainment first. Also, business is about shady stuff aaall the fucking time. All the major companies out there do shady business on a daily basis and thats the reason for their money they earn. Money is not made with being a charity run. Hell, even the small companies and things around the small eSports business are shady. There's not a single entity in this community that is completely transparent. I'm not defending it and saying it is simply okay to hide everything and damage players. Thats not what I mean, but companies need to be like that in certain areas; however if it's to a harmful agree (and if the experience Destiny made happens on a regular basis, then it IS harmful), then we need to CHANGE things. But not completely ABANDON it.
Your rage against someone doing wrong things fills you with such blind ignorance that you don't see that the solution is NOT, and I repeat myself but it is important, NOT to boycott those people and take them out of business. The solution is to WORK TOGETHER with them to change the way they work and make it a profitable business for everyone. If they refuse to do that, well THEN boycott them and take them out. Because THAT is harmful to the community, to eSports in general.
Also, just a sidenote: Destiny is not making money with eSports, he is making money with streaming in general. He attracts eSports viewers as well but right now he's just practicing LoL but is not really going competetive(please correct me if I'm wrong, didn't follow Destiny for a long time).
Another edit: To sum it up. My opinion is simply to work together with them first. If they refuse to coorperate well then they deserve all the shit they get. But if they change the way they do business well then good for them and for us.
Korea is full of shady business(Just take a look at the past troubles and FXOBoss's blog about making business in Korea) and nobody is boycotting them, too. Why the hypocrisy?
On January 18 2013 21:14 MinistryOfWin wrote: Unfortunatelly, we had the same problem. We have left Own3D.TV due to failed promises with advertising fill-rate (ads for Poland and so on). We were waiting for it around one or two months, we've been said several times that they areworking on that, and it's coming on Monday (several times I guess, it was "beeing worked out") etc.
The CPM offered for us haven't really worked, but it doesn't matter anymore. I don't have to say that there are payments pending from May, that we won't see most probably. What we have been told is that we can get the money back if we stream on Own3D again - that will not happen.
Twitch is one of the coolest companies we are in touch at the moment.
Never thought I would see the day when MoW complained about an organization's broken promises, hah.
So it's okay when people complain on MoW, but MoW can't complain on anything - got it, Sir.
I am still pretty sure that Own3D will take care of their business and will develop their product. Best of luck in that.
Just so we're clear, you're fully in your right to post what you did and it's good that you did. Yeah a lot of people are going to feel a crushing sense of irony, but it's good to weigh in more personal experiences.
On January 18 2013 19:32 Nyarly wrote: Was going to say "who the hell care about destiny ?" but then i read the other quotes.. Not really surprised, like husky said, it doesn't seem to be a one time thing in eSport, but it is still very sad..
YOU may not care about Destiny, but people read what he writes/listen to what he says. It is evident with this post, the "SC2 sky is falling" post and others. Just because you dislike him, does not mean people don't care about what Destiny has to say.
Where did you read i dislike the man ?
This thread is posted in the Starcraft 2 > SC2 General forum. Destiny isn't playing sc2 anymore and this isn't sc2 related. Hence, who the hell care to read about DESTINY FINANCIAL PROBLEMS in this part of teamliquid (SC2 GENERAL)? I'm happy for you if you like to hear about the guy, but SC2 general forum shouldn't be the place to find info about him.
This affects everyone who streams on Own3d, including SC2 pro's.
On January 18 2013 20:10 DMaster wrote: ESports has stopped being FUN ... all drama ... no metagame ... Destiny
People need to start having fun again ... for esports sake ...
So what if he didn't get paid ? ... how is that any of anyone's business other than Destiny and Owned tv ?
He should have asked for money upfront ... He can hire a lawyer and sue them for more than the value of the contract, this subject is in no way of interest to anyone ( or it shouldn't be ),
Fun people ... Fun ... Where's the Fun ???
Not sure if troll or Own3d-owner...
Esports isnt "FUUUUUN", its not something that u can play with your mates after school; "Hey guys, lets play cowboys and indians, nah we did that yesterday, I want to play Esports!".
"Esports" is trying to be a legit business, where people can make a living out of the entertainment.
In order to do so, theres no place for scumbag non-legit companies such as own3d.
Why shouldnt everyone be enlightened about shady business so we, as consumers of the provided entertainment, can do something about it?
I for one am never going to watch another own3d-stream again, will you do your part?
So, esports is not fun, but people want to make a living out of entertainment. Also, own3d is a shady business because a few people there seem to be completely clueless about the point of contracts, and then you're throwing EVERYTHING away own3d.tv did for eSports, stop supporting most korean streamers(LG-IM exclusively streams on own3d, mind you) and the occasional foreigner because of that?
You're doing your part. Your part of being destructive for the community. People like you are the reason major companies will most likely NEVER invest into eSports, because once something goes wrong you all pull out and boycott.
how can we possibly know if own3d did pay any of those people you were talking about? Esports doesnt mean jack unless people can make a living out of it, business first, then the "fun". If workers for any company wouldnt get paid for their work, the system doesnt work.
this moronic, head inside your ass attitude towards companies has to end, its insane to support companies no matter what, companies only want to make a profit, therefore, the way to show a company that you no longer support them, is to take away their profit somehow....
So basically, by not supporting a company that is tricking their employees, im scaring away major companies?
Unless those "MAJOR COMPANIES" youre talking about are shady themselves, I see no reason whatsoever as why they should run away from esports.... youre making absolutely no sense whatsoever.
In fact, the only way to attract "MAJOR COMPANIES" is to sort out the bullshit within esport so people think of esports as a legit business thus a safe investment.
your way of looking at companies as some scared wild animal which we have to approach slowly, carefully with silk-gloves and let them do whatever the hell they wish, makes me so filled with rage that I dont know what to do, im going to go and lift bro, g'day.
So you want eSports to be a money-run business that is not about the game, passion and players behind all of it? You want money to rule everything? eSports as a big business where money's first all the time? eSports always did fine and always will do fine, whether major companies are in it or not. Steelseries is in for 10 years now and they're not planning to go. eSports is still fine even if there are no million-dollar contracts, hell even if there are no contracts at all. eSports isn't about the fucking money. I'm not scared of major companies. I'm scared of people like you running eSports, caring only about how much money they can take out of it.
Although I see eSports as something about passion for the game, I know that there has to be a certain amount of money to sustain it. But as a small business there will always be shady stuff like that. You can't stop that, sadly. But what we as a community have to do is try to SOLVE this together with those companies. Not by shitstorming and boycotting them to death. Why would anybody have motivation to start and try to make money with eSports if they're losing everything when some guy fucks up? Do you even know whether that guy Destiny talked to said the truth? Maybe own3d arranged everything but that guy fucked up. Do you know all the details? No. So what you're doing is assuming that own3d is literally a mafia-like organisation that only tries to fuck over players. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but one thing I can tell you: With your attitude we're never going to find out the truth.
You're saying you want eSports to be business first and then fun. Well, you're actually working against that with your attitude. First of all: There is no entertainment in "Business first". And if you want business out of entertainment, you gotta put the fucking entertainment first. Also, business is about shady stuff aaall the fucking time. All the major companies out there do shady business on a daily basis and thats the reason for their money they earn. Money is not made with being a charity run. Hell, even the small companies and things around the small eSports business are shady. There's not a single entity in this community that is completely transparent. I'm not defending it and saying it is simply okay to hide everything and damage players. Thats not what I mean, but companies need to be like that in certain areas; however if it's to a harmful agree (and if the experience Destiny made happens on a regular basis, then it IS harmful), then we need to CHANGE things. But not completely ABANDON it.
Your rage against someone doing wrong things fills you with such blind ignorance that you don't see that the solution is NOT, and I repeat myself but it is important, NOT to boycott those people and take them out of business. The solution is to WORK TOGETHER with them to change the way they work and make it a profitable business for everyone. If they refuse to do that, well THEN boycott them and take them out. Because THAT is harmful to the community, to eSports in general.
Also, just a sidenote: Destiny is not making money with eSports, he is making money with streaming in general. He attracts eSports viewers as well but right now he's just practicing LoL but is not really going competetive(please correct me if I'm wrong, didn't follow Destiny for a long time).
Another edit: To sum it up. My opinion is simply to work together with them first. If they refuse to coorperate well then they deserve all the shit they get. But if they change the way they do business well then good for them and for us.
Korea is full of shady business and nobody is boycotting them, too. Why the hypocrisy?
You seem to think Fun and Major Business led money cannot exist together.
With good fundings from sponsors, more money can go into the scene, more tournaments, more players, better training facilities, more streaming etc Sure, without the money, there can be players, but can there be players that needs to make a living out of it? Several players have switched out because the stream doesn't provide what they were expected to get. How is it wrong that they should switch out and leaving a warning for the rest?
A shady business has already discouraged a pro from streaming in the OP. IF the game has the popularity, there will always be competition rising up.
Just look at sports like badminton, a multi billions industry in China, right now with much better equipments and trainings leading to much more competitive, higher skilled player providing more fun games to watch.
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Its a company based out of Austria and lawyers are not cheap.
If you are a big time independent player with a contract like his. or you have a team......its a very good idea to have a lawyer just for shit like this. I know its eSports and them eSports dollars aren't always the most reliable, but to not get paid for nearly 6 months would definately warrant a lawsuit even with the cheapest lawyers.
eSports isn't nearly as big enough to have lawyers on retainers.... it's loads of money.
[/QUOTE] eSports isn't about the fucking money [/QUOTE].
Lol...wut?
people playing a game in order to sustain their whole living, looking for sponsors, wearing shirts full of company logos, trying to attract viewerships, streaming their games/practice sessions....
eports is about the money. and how it is. but that doesnt mean there is no passion and ideology behind it. but money rules the world and you know it.
[/QUOTE] You're saying you want eSports to be business first and then fun. Well, you're actually working against that with your attitude. First of all: There is no entertainment in "Business first" [/QUOTE]
every sport on a competitive level is about BUSINESS first. you think it is "fun" to play in the NBA,NFL, NHL knowing that every major fuck up or injury may end your career?
At the top of every competitiv area, be it chess or music or sport or dancing there IS business.and competition. and high risk. and very little fun. and.....of....course.....MONEY!
and whether there is entertainement in business first...should be decided by the consumers....if theres none for you, im sorry....
This is a shame, if we want as a community to gain more mainstream success and recognition for our legitimacy we can't get keep doing these things to eachother. People need to one do their homework, and two not just work to gain moeny but to grow the scene.
All the streamers that I care to watch are on Twitch. All the tournaments that I care to watch are on Twitch. When I want to watch a stream, my immediate reaction is to go to Twitch. I honestly thought most people stopped their streaming on own3d last year with how much ground Twitch was gaining.
Oleg sounds like he's just a medium - he doesn't really know anything and he just conveys the information from the person higher than him to his clients. Just the fact that Destiny was forced to use Skype rather than phone just shows how separated Oleg wanted to be from Destiny (it's just easier to bullshit through text than through verbal messages).
I've always had stability issues whenever I tried to watch own3d in 2011 and early 2012, but it's always been subpar to Twitch. This bad publicity will only hurt them, which is good for Twitch. Hopefully own3d streamers that are getting bullied like this will make the switch after their contacts are done (if they have contracts).
Destiny is a scumbag. If anyone else were to be the main face of this I would consider supporting. Destiny is self-centered and finds it fun to do these kinds of things. He has a job in this business not because he is good, but because people watch his stuff because its controversial. Please, stop watching and supporting this esports villain.
On January 18 2013 11:25 shockaslim wrote: If I was him or anyone else that got jerked by that company I would sue the SHIT out of them. Thats just unacceptable to not make your payments to someone and then threaten legal action when they break the contract due to you being a piece of garbage.
Its a company based out of Austria and lawyers are not cheap.
If you are a big time independent player with a contract like his. or you have a team......its a very good idea to have a lawyer just for shit like this. I know its eSports and them eSports dollars aren't always the most reliable, but to not get paid for nearly 6 months would definately warrant a lawsuit even with the cheapest lawyers.
eSports isn't nearly as big enough to have lawyers on retainers.... it's loads of money.
The hell it isn't. I make 45k a year and have a lawyer on retainer. Its called "The Ex-Wife". If I can afford it a pro or a pro team can afford it to handle the situation if they really wanted to go after them. At the very least they could put these crooks out of business. Stop others from being ripped off. I guess thats the moral high ground and might effect someones macro though.
EPT
