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Well, I guess what we can learn from this is that Own3d is a failing company whose biggest problem was ad agencies who simply wouldn't pay on time. And it's ridiculous to say "long time" when we're talking about 6-9 month back payments. That's not just a "long time." That's 6-9 months of not being able to pay bills, not being able to eat well, not being able to do much of anything. Destiny's case is even worse. His family would have starved if he didn't have a huge savings. vV.RuFF has run his credit into the ground just so that he could avoid bankruptcy. He's going to spend years paying that off. 6-9 months in this case is an utter failure of responsibility on Own3d's part, and the part of the ad agencies.
I've never really understood Destiny's appeal, but goddamn. The man should be able to eat and support his family. And anyone saying he's awful so why should we care is why, once again, I'm going to reiterate that the SC2 community is getting more and more ridiculous.
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On January 19 2013 00:58 purecarnagge wrote:
He's not a sex offender
maybe not legally....
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On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag.
No! A thousand times no in fact.
Being a professional at something does not in any way shape or form imply that you should adhere to a contract that the other side broke. It's as simple as that. If Own3d had paid Destiny properly he most likely would still stream for them, since they don't he should most certainly switch.
Maybe he should have contacted a lawyer and sued them (in fact I've argued exactly that earlier in this thread), but he most certainly should have made sure he can actually earn enough money to live as soon as possible, given the communication with Own3d he made the right step.
You are correct that you should involve a lawyer often to cover your options, but frankly your comparing apples to oranges, you work for a big corporation in an established legal department, Destiny is basically a free agent and thanks to Own3d he is literally struggling to feed his wife and kid, he doesn't have the time to involve a lawyer and jump through twelve hoops before he starts earning money again (most likely he can't even afford to hire a lawyer to begin with).
Let me reiterate my point, no matter where you work and what contract you are under if the other party does not give you what they owe you for more than 3 months almost anyone would cancel the contract. They might do it by contacting their lawyer and suing, or they might simply send a letter/email telling them to get lost, either way they would be well within their rights to stop working for them.
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On January 19 2013 01:38 Earll wrote:
Has any of the bigger League of legends or Dota players commented on this? I know joindota streams on Own3d, and so does Navi (dendi often pulls around 10k viewers just on a regular streaming session) and also a lot of the most popular streamers in LoL stream on own3d as far as I know (Don't really know the viewerships there that much but think someone like Ocelote, and maybe also CLG or TSM or both, are both pretty high up there).
Wickd, from CLG, was playing in a game the other day with Ocelote and they read the article on stream. They both agreed with Destiny, and that is why CLG and TSM moved to Twitch.
Also, Dyrus made a post on the reddit thread.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/16rxev/own3dtv_a_beginners_guide_to_being_an_asshole/
"sad thing is own3d.tv had a huge opportunity, to make a shit load of money. I had 42k viewers on their platform once, I have no idea how they couldn't invest their profits into streamers making them bigger." - Dyrus.
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On January 19 2013 01:38 Earll wrote:
Has any of the bigger League of legends or Dota players commented on this? I know joindota streams on Own3d, and so does Navi (dendi often pulls around 10k viewers just on a regular streaming session) and also a lot of the most popular streamers in LoL stream on own3d as far as I know (Don't really know the viewerships there that much but think someone like Ocelote, and maybe also CLG or TSM or both, are both pretty high up there).
TSM switched to twitch a while ago because of the same issue (weren't being paid). Some other LoL teams/streamers did at around the same time as well. No clue why some teams like Curse stuck around on own3d. Could be the difference in how important streaming revenue is to each team.
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On January 19 2013 01:42 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:37 Urasim wrote:On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag. I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS. FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees. I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties. This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing?
A honest question from someone who is not at all into law: If one party breaches the contract isnt the contract broken? Does it matter that the other party no longer follows the contract after that?
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On January 18 2013 23:31 TypeLex wrote:
On the Type Gaming side, we did get our payments but indeed after a while.
Still, overall Own3D staff was overall quite helpful especially regarding technical issues.
From what I've gathered, the payments are not really in their hands, I was working in Dubai on similar deals and here's how it panned out every-time:
Viewers see Adverts(Ads) on Streamer -> Agency (Own3D for example) collects all the statistics + Ads provider collects all the statistics -> Agency sends data to Ads Provider -> Ads Provider checks the data against its own Database -> *if* there are no issue, Ads Provider pays the Agency (It takes a long time) -> Agency pays Streamer
It's not as straight forward as it looks and I personally think we should try to find a way to support initiatives like Own3D and TwitchTV, they really are pushing the industry in a new direction which is micro-advertizing, without them we'd have seen a lot of players go out of eSports already.
None-the-less, there should be more transparency, but we all know how lawyers are in terms of Corporate Image so do we even want these guys to take the risk ?
If they are not in their hands, maybe give an explanation to the streamers who they owe money. For example many teams just dodge and lie to their players why they don't get their salary. "I wired the money to your bank account today, it should arrive there in few days", which is bullshit and players doesn't get the money. If they would just tell the truth like sponsors haven't paid us yet etc.. players would be more understanding, but instead they wait for months and months before finally leaving the team after begin owed a lot of money and told countless of lies.
So... JUST TELL THE TRUTH AND STOP LYING.
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Seems like own3d is indeed a tad shady. Which is sad, because it is usually a lot less laggy than twitch for me.
Are there still any notable SC2 players streaming on Own3D? My impression was that most of our community are on twitch, right?
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On January 19 2013 01:47 Lombard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:42 Ctone23 wrote:On January 19 2013 01:37 Urasim wrote:On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag. I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS. FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees. I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties. This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing? A honest question from someone who is not at all into law: If one party breaches the contract isnt the contract broken? Does it matter that the other party no longer follows the contract after that?
You are 100% correct. The contract is then null and void. If Destiny had the resources I am sure he would have taken his case to court.
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On January 19 2013 01:43 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag. No! A thousand times no in fact. Being a professional at something does not in any way shape or form imply that you should adhere to a contract that the other side broke. It's as simple as that. If Own3d had paid Destiny properly he most likely would still stream for them, since they don't he should most certainly switch. Maybe he should have contacted a lawyer and sued them (in fact I've argued exactly that earlier in this thread), but he most certainly should have made sure he can actually earn enough money to live as soon as possible, given the communication with Own3d he made the right step. You are correct that you should involve a lawyer often to cover your options, but frankly your comparing apples to oranges, you work for a big corporation in an established legal department, Destiny is basically a free agent and thanks to Own3d he is literally struggling to feed his wife and kid, he doesn't have the time to involve a lawyer and jump through twelve hoops before he starts earning money again (most likely he can't even afford to hire a lawyer to begin with). Let me reiterate my point, no matter where you work and what contract you are under if the other party does not give you what they owe you for more than 3 months almost anyone would cancel the contract. They might do it by contacting their lawyer and suing, or they might simply send a letter/email telling them to get lost, either way they would be well within their rights to stop working for them.
No no, I do not work for a big corporation. We have 8 people in our office, therefore I can speak to what contract terms mean for your business.
The point I'm trying to make is that there is a legal process and precedents set throughout the legal world that provide for anyone to protect themselves.
You make assumptions on what the contract says, a common mistake that people make. The contract language stipulates the relationship. If the contract did not have any language regarding the Company not paying wages and the employees rights of action should that happen, well, then that's just the way it is.
Again, I was only offering advice for "after-the-fact," hopefully he will learn to protect himself better in the future endeavors he involves himself in. Just because your awesome at one thing does not mean you are qualified to understand another thing.
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On January 19 2013 01:47 Lombard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:42 Ctone23 wrote:On January 19 2013 01:37 Urasim wrote:On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag. I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS. FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees. I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties. This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing? A honest question from someone who is not at all into law: If one party breaches the contract isnt the contract broken? Does it matter that the other party no longer follows the contract after that?
It all depends on what the contract language is.
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On January 19 2013 01:37 Urasim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag. I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS. FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
Maybe a cultural thing, but here in Germany, you can get a 'Rechtsschutzversicherung' - direct translation would be 'law protection insurance - that covers all costs of court cases, unless of course you commit a crime yourself or something like that, starting at about 6 dollars per month. Do such things exist in the US?
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Switch to Twitch, at Own3d you get boned!
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On January 19 2013 01:47 Lombard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:42 Ctone23 wrote:On January 19 2013 01:37 Urasim wrote:On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag. I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS. FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees. I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties. This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing? A honest question from someone who is not at all into law: If one party breaches the contract isnt the contract broken? Does it matter that the other party no longer follows the contract after that?
Actually, no, it all depends what was written into the contract. Failure to pay does *not* necessarily mean the contract was breeched. Until we see the exact contract, we do not know if it was broken.
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Who cares. Everyone knows that Destiny is a maphacker, and stream sniper.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 19 2013 01:53 Uninite wrote:
Who cares. Everyone knows that Destiny is a maphacker, and stream sniper.
There are plenty of other people affected, not just Destiny. You would know this if you'd read the thread.
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On January 19 2013 01:52 Rimstalker wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:37 Urasim wrote:On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag. I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS. FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees. Maybe a cultural thing, but here in Germany, you can get a 'Rechtsschutzversicherung' - direct translation would be 'law protection insurance - that covers all costs of court cases, unless of course you commit a crime yourself or something like that, starting at about 6 dollars per month. Do such things exist in the US?
Doesn't work like that in the USA, sadly. The only time we are appointed an attorney for free is if we commit a crime. We have to pay a lot in the USA for lawyers. Jealous that you only have to pay 6 dollars though...
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On January 19 2013 01:52 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:47 Lombard wrote:On January 19 2013 01:42 Ctone23 wrote:On January 19 2013 01:37 Urasim wrote:On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag. I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS. FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees. I do realize they breached the contract, but when Destiny in-turn breached his contract instead of taking legal action he in-turn accrued penalties. This is the way the world works. Thousands is a bit of a stretch. You can hire a lawyer and agree to pay any fees after the case is settled. Whats worse, paying a fee to a lawyer and recouping some of the money owed, OR, breaching your contract out of frustration and receiving nothing? A honest question from someone who is not at all into law: If one party breaches the contract isnt the contract broken? Does it matter that the other party no longer follows the contract after that? Actually, no, it all depends what was written into the contract. Failure to pay does *not* necessarily mean the contract was breeched. Until we see the exact contract, we do not know if it was broken.
Ah, but then the contract wouldnt be breached would it? I was asking a more general question since we're all just speculating what the full contract says anyway.
Edit: Oh, and that's what you said, sorry.
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On January 19 2013 00:51 NoobCrunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 00:42 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On January 18 2013 22:15 NoobCrunch wrote:
Real job > internets job
I've always been skeptical of non-cash generating activities like playing SC2 and how people could get paid for their "work". you mean like the way banking and stockmarketing works? People in Wall Street work long hours and get compensated for making smart investment decisions and risking investor's money. The point is is that streaming and playing computer games is not linked with revenue generating or providing a service. I always felt like "professional gamers" overstated the amount of money they earned. Why would you pay someone to play computer games? Don't get me wrong I like to play sc2 and I ladder a lot.
gamers work long hours and get compensated for their time and effort they put in to give us, the community a great entertainment.
because its a business.
Because its entertainment value in it.
Because in this case, Destiny performed a service ( he streamed thus making it possible for companies to run commercials, which creates value).
Why would someone pay somebody for any sport event? soccer? Icehockey? Football? baseball? etc etc etc Because it brings entertainment value.
Imo, culture in itself brings value and thus should be supported.
IMO; Stocktraders and the stockmarket are parasites on the system and earns money by having a buttload of money in the first place to earn more money with.
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On January 19 2013 01:37 Urasim wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2013 01:22 Ctone23 wrote:I stand corrected there was a lot more information in the article than I originally saw, my mistake. However, my opinion still stands that professional gamers need to be more professional when it comes to contract terms. There simply isn't an excuse for breaching a contract, when you have so much leverage against the company that is not paying you. If anything, Destiny needed to compile all of that information and go to a lawyer while this was taking place. At that point, the lawyer would have absolutely no problem convincing a judge of what Destiny was owed. If it turned out Own3d simply didn't have the money, then at least you would know at that point. It's unfortunate this scenario has taken place but it should show everyone that you need to protect yourself in a professional environment, and that if you give someone an inch, they will take a mile. I work as professional Analyst for an Oil and Gas company in the Land/Legal department. I can tell you that you must always protect yourself when it comes to any agreement, and that a lawyer(s) advice is always needed, no matter how smart you think you are. On January 19 2013 00:46 Noobity wrote:On January 18 2013 23:35 Ctone23 wrote:
Hmm. Reading that article it appears that Destiny breached his contract by switching streaming platforms before his contract was up. It seems kind of fishy that he would not demand payment from accounting or from some higher form of "brass" within the organization. For him to just leave and go over to Twitch without telling them,(while I haven't read the contract in full) breaches any contract he had, and therefore "might" negate payment of any sort, despite the original payment being late. From that point it becomes a legal matter in accruing previous payments owed.
I'm glad you're reading up on it, but you're a little mistaken (though it's possible the original post has been edited since I read it). Destiny switched platforms after contacting the CEO of the company multiple times (many messages shown in the original posting) in an attempt to receive the compensation he was owed. There is no higher executive of the company to contact. This was also after not receiving his owed compensation for months in the first place. If I wasn't being paid by my company for months (though being told I would) and then decided to take another job I don't think it's my responsibility to inform them. Might be in the best interest of myself to keep the relationship (assuming I cared) but not something that anyone should conceivably expect. The payments in question were more than "late" and I believe in some cases they'd be considered simply not paid at all. I would also like to point out that there are a lot of "Oleg is a scumbag" type posts here, and while I don't assume to know how best to moderate, I think the posters who made these statements should rethink them. Destiny himself made a great point on his stream last night that it's not "Oleg" who was screwing him over, but Own3d. Oleg was the mouthpiece for his company in this instance, but not a "villain" or "scumbag" in any sense of the word necessarily. It's entirely possible that he was told the information he provided was correct, and despite being the CEO of the company (unless I'm understanding that wrong) he may not have 100% of the information that the accountants for instance would. He may have not been as transparent as he should have been, but he was far from being a scumbag. I hope you realize that Own3d breached the contract by not paying the player for MONTHS. FFS... I wish people would understand that it would cost Destiny THOUSANDS of dollars to get this into court, and even then there is no guarantee that he will get any money back whatsoever. What happens if Own3d cannot pay Destiny because they don't have any money to begin with? Then Destiny is screwed even more because of court fees.
While I agree in general, it would cost Destiny thousands of dollars to get this to court, Ctone is not wrong. By deliberately breaching the contract that was signed, Destiny is taking a risk. While he may believe he understands the contract fully, it's possible he's overlooking something or doesn't 100% understand the wording (though I want to point out that I feel he's probably got a good enough grasp on the issue to know what he's doing). Should he have broken the contract in a way that the written text allows Own3d to action, then he'd be up shit creek. Don't let your desire to see the right thing done blind you into thinking that the wrong thing cannot happen and happen legally is all.
It's also possible that the contract was written with loopholes allowing for delays in payment. Hell it's possible that the contract wasn't legally binding at all in the first place. I've heard stories of typos invalidating contracts, it's likely those were more sensationalist anecdotes than anything, but for serious contracts I can't imagine everything is simply accepted as written. If Own3d is a European company (which I've heard) it's also possible that contract law is different for them than it is for us, and it's possible that there are other ways around paying/breaching the contract that would be legal or cancel the contract out at all.
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EPT
