EPTif you could control 12 demon hunters, archmagi, death knights, the game would have had a lot more room for pimp plays
Is there easy cloning mode now? - Page 2
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Zanno
United States1484 Posts
if you could control 12 demon hunters, archmagi, death knights, the game would have had a lot more room for pimp plays | ||
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MindpLay-
40 Posts
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terranmetal
Canada153 Posts
Someone who attended Blizzcon mentioned that it was very easy to macro, they had tons of minerals and with a click of about 3 buttons, he could reduce it all to nothing. This might be what seperated him from the noobs who did not take the time to hotkey their buildings are had an idea of what macro was. But think about it, this guy wasn't a pro yet he had perfect macro? would you be eliminating the macro part of the game then? Think about what would be different if cloning were automated, and how it while used much more often, would seem much less impressive when done. If we take this away from the game what parts of the game would be left to be impressive. WARNING: most of these won't be in SC2, but I'm just stating how important this is if we apply it to BW. 12 vessel irridiate = easy, select 12 vessels , then hit "i" then just click 12 lurkers boom their all dead now. 12 ghost lockdown on carriers = easy, as soon as you know their going carriers, start building ghosts, not long till they have 75 energy. now same thing hit "l" and each click means a lock downed carrier 24 scourge spread = just auto clone two on everything, no longer that impressive is it? 5 high templar storm = hotkey 5 HT to your "5" key, when engaged in TvP war, A + move your army, then hit 5 and click 5 times on the 5 clumped groups. now you don't have to click on each individual templar/unit portrait 3 defiler swarm path = just hit "w" then draw a path into the frontline of a T base, all the way inside, now A + move all your zerglings 12 battlecruiser fight = select 12 cruisers, hit s, now click on the opponents battle cruisers. In a real game, if your opponent were weaker than you, your yamato spread would dominate. Now the newb can equal your yamato spread. While this might "improve" the interface, I do not believe cloning was that much of an interface hassle to begin with. Newbs original wouldn't bother with cloning, and only experienced players took advantage of it. If you make cloning this easy, you are allowing newbs to do these special micro moves, which pretty much takes the micro away from it. The moves I listed above are supposed to be what seperates the pro from the noob, all those techniques are essential to gain the upperhand in a battle, and truly seperates the experienced and faster hand speed player from a hasu player. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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gravity
Australia1734 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
On August 06 2007 21:37 gravity wrote: You guys forget that it's not about "being impressive", it's about being fun to play. Being able to do more complex stuff without having super-high APM makes the game more interesting for the *players*, which is the most important part. I really doubt there will be a lack of spectacularity in pro games anyway - there will still be amazing 1 in 100 game moves, they just won't be exactly the same things that they are now, while regular gameplay will probably be more varied. its about being impressive for progaming though... :/ | ||
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MindpLay-
40 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5405 Posts
It's not just because they can click fast. I can do that too :/ P.S. where were you guys 6 weeks ago when we found out that Smartcasting was in the game? This isn't news >_<  | ||
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ocoini
648 Posts
Just have to sigh and shrug.. | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
Example: Right now lets imagine a PvT the protoss army consisting of zealots, goons and HTs ready with storm. In BW the protoss player would attackmove the zealots and goons in, maybe moving the zealots so they walk past the frontline and then spread them over the tanks more evenly... then clone storms with the HT. The same situation in SC2. Then sure the storms will be easier to cast but now at the same time as you cast your storms you will have to micro your stalkers to perfection using blink etc. | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
Purposely setting up the interface this way is not supporting an outdated or stupid interface, but rather it is perfecting what makes computer games computer games as opposed to sports or board games. All games require decision-making but sports also require physical fitness, computer games require hand dexterity, and board games require nothing in addition at all. A tennis player can decide to hit the ball into the far corner, but he can still fail if his body is not capable of such strength and accuracy. It would be silliness to alter the game of tennis in some way such that players are not limited by their physical capabilities. Tennis fans know that the strategical requirements and the physical requirements of the game are already well-balanced. I say that BW has achieved balance because it is quite comparable to other very successful games. The popular sports in America, like football, basketball and baseball, are all successful at both the professional and amateur levels. If you watch professional games, the best players in the world still come up short in performance: an NFL receiver drops a pass, an NBA player misses a shot, etc. These mistakes exist and in similar frequencies in each sport. "Easy" moves still have a noticable failure rate, likewise "impossible" moves still have a noticable success rate. And despite the professional players struggling to achieve perfection, millions of amateurs still love to play. The professionals and amateurs form a mutual relationship. Professionals need fans and replacements, amateurs need someone to look up to and try to copy. Setting up a mutual symbiotic relationship between professionals and amateurs is the best way to make a game successful and long-lasting. There is a formula out there among all the most popular games in the world (mostly sports) and Blizzard just happened to strike upon it with BW. With SC2, Blizzard musn't leave it to blind luck again. The execution of strategies cannot be made any easier in SC2 than they are in BW. PS: Blizzard's idea of making a game easy to learn but difficult to master is exactly what this is about, partly. It seems that they want to make the execution of strategies easy, while formulating strategies will take a lifetime. This is not how to make a proper computer game, especially not the successor to BW. People don't want an animated board game on their screens. Other RTS's have been going that direction and their games hold interest for less than a year. The solution is for Blizzard to apply "easy to learn, difficult to master" to both strategy and execution. That is, it's easy to learn how to clone magic spells, but it's incredibly difficult to master. | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On August 07 2007 11:24 NonY[rC] wrote: + Show Spoiler + BW has the right amount of hand dexterity required. If a BW game goes long enough, even the pros known for their perfect mechanics have to make decisions with regard to BW's third resource: time. The top players have to decide how much time to spend with each pressing issue, knowing that the issues ignored will suffer. A computer game shouldn't be built such that if you know what to do, you can automatically do it. That's a board game. For example, in Chess, or Risk, it does not take any skill to move a piece. Simplifying a computer game's interface to the point that the action on screen is just an extension of your thoughts is a big mistake. How much of your decisions actually come through on-screen should be mitigated by hand speed. Purposely setting up the interface this way is not supporting an outdated or stupid interface, but rather it is perfecting what makes computer games computer games as opposed to sports or board games. All games require decision-making but sports also require physical fitness, computer games require hand dexterity, and board games require nothing in addition at all. A tennis player can decide to hit the ball into the far corner, but he can still fail if his body is not capable of such strength and accuracy. It would be silliness to alter the game of tennis in some way such that players are not limited by their physical capabilities. Tennis fans know that the strategical requirements and the physical requirements of the game are already well-balanced. I say that BW has achieved balance because it is quite comparable to other very successful games. The popular sports in America, like football, basketball and baseball, are all successful at both the professional and amateur levels. If you watch professional games, the best players in the world still come up short in performance: an NFL receiver drops a pass, an NBA player misses a shot, etc. These mistakes exist and in similar frequencies in each sport. "Easy" moves still have a noticable failure rate, likewise "impossible" moves still have a noticable success rate. And despite the professional players struggling to achieve perfection, millions of amateurs still love to play. The professionals and amateurs form a mutual relationship. Professionals need fans and replacements, amateurs need someone to look up to and try to copy. Setting up a mutual symbiotic relationship between professionals and amateurs is the best way to make a game successful and long-lasting. There is a formula out there among all the most popular games in the world (mostly sports) and Blizzard just happened to strike upon it with BW. With SC2, Blizzard musn't leave it to blind luck again. The execution of strategies cannot be made any easier in SC2 than they are in BW. PS: Blizzard's idea of making a game easy to learn but difficult to master is exactly what this is about, partly. It seems that they want to make the execution of strategies easy, while formulating strategies will take a lifetime. This is not how to make a proper computer game, especially not the successor to BW. People don't want an animated board game on their screens. Other RTS's have been going that direction and their games hold interest for less than a year. The solution is for Blizzard to apply "easy to learn, difficult to master" to both strategy and execution. That is, it's easy to learn how to clone magic spells, but it's incredibly difficult to master. I completly agree with everything you say there. However dont you agree that how hard the controls are doesnt equal the hand dexterity required. If you put SC2s controlls into BW then that would obviously be a bad things since like you say the BW already has the right amount of hand dexterity required. However what if the difference between SC2s and BWs amount of "potential micro" is just as big as the inverse differance in ease of control. Wouldnt that make SC2 have the right amount of hand dexterity required while also enabling new players to do some cool things? | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
On August 06 2007 21:26 SuperJongMan wrote: I hate when people post out long poorly thought out posts. i hate when people post the most general ridicule of a kind of post they possibly can instead of actually thinking of any specific rebuttle. Starcraft isn't a fuckign board game. the reason for this is not because it's graphical. clicking fast is part of the game, and i doubt anyone here can click nearly as fast as a progamer, or do as much with the same amount of clicks, you're just moderates. ok i admit there seem to be multiple ways the necessity of clicking fast could be implimented, such as mass-expand orientedness plus highly open harassable bases. but anyone who's trying to tell me that the game will always be strategical, and that those who want coordination and focus on management are just elitists who don't want to let go of their hard earned skills, or that needing less management skills is more fun for newbs, i will still disagree with. To a newb at any game or sport, the fun of it should always be in humbly trying to compete with your friends because you know anyone else can kick your ass. that can be fun, if you don't mind being humble. those who are not so comfortable with humbly accepting that the fact they are shit is plainly obvious when they play to themselves and anyone else, and that pros can do so many things they can't that it's an entirely different game, and having fun anyway, are the kind of assholes who attended schools where tag wasn't allowed because it was too competitive, or would send their offspring to such schools, and those who play wow because it's more gratifying than any other game to play on an extremely low level. not say there isn't a more competitive level of wow, but i'm just realizing that that's what i don't respect about the way games are being made these days. the newbs to whom the games are designed to be newb-friendly are fucking sissies with no sense of humility. it used to be different. /rant. | ||
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Response
United States1936 Posts
On August 06 2007 17:20 Kwark wrote: There is a degree of smart cloning in BW for example darchons with mind control. For high speed mass mind control you don't need to queue. Simply hold shift and tell them all to mind control each of the targets and they work it out themselves. I see no reason why they'd not extend this to other units, it would just be simplification of the interface. you dont even have to push shift...if you have all your DA's selected and they all have energy and you select to Mind Control one unit only one will MC it then mc another and another will mc it etc. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5405 Posts
On August 07 2007 12:08 GoSuPlAyEr wrote: you dont even have to push shift...if you have all your DA's selected and they all have energy and you select to Mind Control one unit only one will MC it then mc another and another will mc it etc. Well of course, you can't mind control your own unit after all. | ||
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
On August 07 2007 11:52 DrainX wrote: whether apm taking the form of multitasking entirely, instead of the difficulty of a lesser number of tasks which could more easily fit onto one screen, and be more comprehensible somewhat, turns out to be as observable is to be seen i guess. all in all the game doesn't sound that bad i think, as long as they stick to what nony just said about applying blizzard's montra to hand dexterity.I completly agree with everything you say there. However dont you agree that how hard the controls are doesnt equal the hand dexterity required. If you put SC2s controlls into BW then that would obviously be a bad things since like you say the BW already has the right amount of hand dexterity required. However what if the difference between SC2s and BWs amount of "potential micro" is just as big as the inverse differance in ease of control. Wouldnt that make SC2 have the right amount of hand dexterity required while also enabling new players to do some cool things? It will be very different though, just like warcraft 2 and warcraft 3 in my opinion from broodwar, very interesting and cool and respectable but none a replacement of another. i mean looking at it this way, i dont' see why anyone would want to switch from broodwar to sc2 except because of a better matchmaking system and such things and higher newb-friendliness. and nicer graphics. we should really play all the games at once or devote purely on gameplay preference imo, like athletic people do with soccer/football/basketball, etc. It's just a shame the games are never released to fix simple things like userbase, ladder system, maybe graphics, without touching the ui or gameplay. that videogames get old and semi-die is a real shame and product of a profit driven society. | ||
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FlyingHamsta
United States77 Posts
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ocoini
648 Posts
On August 07 2007 12:26 FlyingHamsta wrote: The pros will still be better than you. but i wont know, cus i wont be interested in watching them if the game isnt like starcraft  | ||
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Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On August 06 2007 20:28 Zanno wrote: war3 is not that spectacular because you only have 1-3 units that have moves that require heavy spell micro if you could control 12 demon hunters, archmagi, death knights, the game would have had a lot more room for pimp plays QFT. And the huge amount of spells on the non-heroes in War3 were buffs/debuffs (right?)... which made them all sort of the same and not as exciting. Plus things never died fast. | ||
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