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We don't know if there are Scourge in SCII. There could be, but we don't know that.
On August 15 2007 12:54 BlackStar wrote:
Not with SC. And if Blizzard wants to get as money off SCII as they do off SC then they need to make it a spectator sport.
So basically, you're saying the game should be designed for progamers. Nice.
Does anyone know how much money OGN and MBC play Blizzard to be allowed to broadcast SC?
No. So how much is it?
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On August 15 2007 16:16 Chodorkovskiy wrote:
So basically, you're saying the game should be designed for progamers. Nice.
EXACTLY! Thats the point of COMPETITIVE games. Blizzard is balancing the game for the pros. Casual dudes get the flashy graphics to drool about. Nobody will give a rats ass about a game that every noob can play good. Just look at C&C3.
I think you should spent some time actually PLAYING Starcraft to get a grasp why this game is so awesome: 5 minutes to learn and a lifetime to master.
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On August 15 2007 17:51 Senix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2007 16:16 Chodorkovskiy wrote:
So basically, you're saying the game should be designed for progamers. Nice.
EXACTLY! Thats the point of COMPETITIVE games. Blizzard is balancing the game for the pros. Casual dudes get the flashy graphics to drool about. Nobody will give a rats ass about a game that every noob can play good. Just look at C&C3. I think you should spent some time actually PLAYING Starcraft to get a grasp why this game is so awesome: 5 minutes to learn and a lifetime to master.
On a random side note, I went out and borrowed C&C3 off a friend recently to see what all the fuss really is about. And let me just say, Damn it really is as bad as everyone is making it out to be. I think I died a little inside while playing. Still, if your a Battlestar Galactica or House fan, you should def check the game out.
As for the topic, games have to be made for the pros, because regardless of how noobified you make a game, there will be hardcore people who are going to work on finding the best ways to win. And once these strategy are found, everyone is going to try and copy them. If the strategys turn out to not be balanced for pros, then the whole game comes falling down due to exploitation. If the strategies are not fulfilling for a pro gamer, interest is lost and the game once again falls apart. (theres only soo many times you can repeat the same strategy). Blizzard realises this, and will attempt to make the game challenging for pros, but still allow noobs to enjoy playing. So to Chodorkovskiy, YES games should be made for pros.
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On August 15 2007 19:22 Fen wrote:
So to Chodorkovskiy, YES games should be made for pros.
But, blizzard are smart and can balance it both for lowend players and highend players, wich makes the game enjoyable for everyone. This is their strong point, they cater to a very broad audience with their games.
They wont make sc2 a causaul game, they wont make it a pro game either, it will be a game for players of any skill level.
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On August 15 2007 19:22 Fen wrote:
So to Chodorkovskiy, YES games should be made for pros.
But, blizzard are smart and can balance it both for lowend players and highend players, wich makes the game enjoyable for everyone. This is their strong point, they cater to a very broad audience with their games.
They wont make sc2 a casaul game, they wont make it a pro game either, it will be a game for players of any skill level.
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You cannot balance a game for all skill levels. Even Starcraft isnt balanced for noobs. Protoss is very powerful when your opponent sucks at micro. Terran and especially Zerg are hard for noobs to handle.
Are you afraid of SC2 being all about skill so you cant play with the big guys? Too bad looks like you will actually have to train to do your shit.
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On August 16 2007 01:39 Senix wrote:
You cannot balance a game for all skill levels. Even Starcraft isnt balanced for noobs. Protoss is very powerful when your opponent sucks at micro. Terran and especially Zerg are hard for noobs to handle.
Are you afraid of SC2 being all about skill so you cant play with the big guys? Too bad looks like you will actually have to train to do your shit.
I had no problems with starcraft, where do people get the ideeas that a person wich thinks that the game would be better off if its playable without training a lot would himself suck?
Do you really think that im just discussing all this on this forum in order to have an easier time beating pros?
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Heh, actually, too bad for you-all. Blizzard wants SCII to appeal to the widest possible audience. I'm not complaining, I'm trying to ease you guys in. 
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Smart casting is not absolutely horrible, but I think there are better alternatives to it. For me this is a choice between: 1) Giving the player as much control as possible or 2) Letting the computer make choices for the player.
Smart casting does have a function: to make micro more accessible and efficient. But it achieves this by giving control to the computer, why not do this in a way that keeps the control in the hands of the player? Do it in a way that is both helpful to beginners as well as being an interesting tool for advanced players. It would not only be better game play wise, but also programing wise.
You can't discard the fact that real-time manual management of your units is a big part of Starcraft. It's part of what makes it interesting and what makes high level Starcraft great. Blizzard should be trying to keep to these roots and expand on them. I'm not saying that smart casting would completely ruin this aspect of the game, but it's something that detracts from it and so I don't think it's the best option.
Besides, Blizzard can show even more what made Starcraft great by taking an original path here. Smart casting is used in all these other games, but Blizzard can show that Starcraft isn't just any other game.
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On August 16 2007 01:39 Senix wrote:
You cannot balance a game for all skill levels. Even Starcraft isnt balanced for noobs. Protoss is very powerful when your opponent sucks at micro. Terran and especially Zerg are hard for noobs to handle.
Are you afraid of SC2 being all about skill so you cant play with the big guys? Too bad looks like you will actually have to train to do your shit.
Starcraft at the low skill levels is absolutely balanced, because even simple things make extreme differences. Every race is powerfull when your opponent sucks at micro, or sucks at anything at all. If you considering maps like Fastest/BGH, then yes, they benefit Protoss the most, but this has nothing to do with player skill.
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And to think: all this started, when a little boy in South Korea set out to discover a new and flashy way to send SCVs mining, so he could impress a girl from class.
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I see, you are just going to ignore everything and spew random crap?
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On August 16 2007 03:32 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2007 01:39 Senix wrote:
You cannot balance a game for all skill levels. Even Starcraft isnt balanced for noobs. Protoss is very powerful when your opponent sucks at micro. Terran and especially Zerg are hard for noobs to handle.
Are you afraid of SC2 being all about skill so you cant play with the big guys? Too bad looks like you will actually have to train to do your shit. Starcraft at the low skill levels is absolutely balanced, because even simple things make extreme differences. Every race is powerfull when your opponent sucks at micro, or sucks at anything at all. If you considering maps like Fastest/BGH, then yes, they benefit Protoss the most, but this has nothing to do with player skill.
Protoss is incredibly imbalanced for players who have only about 6 monthes of experience. On Blizz maps or blood bath, I have yet to see a new Terran stop some kind of 2 gate or 2 gate w/ forge cannon zeal rush. You would have to have very good scv and marine micro. Most new players don't even know they have to use their scvs, and simply buy a bunker and get owned a few minutes later by cannons or goons. And don't even get me started on the newb's outlook on 5 pool.
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On August 15 2007 17:51 Senix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2007 16:16 Chodorkovskiy wrote:
So basically, you're saying the game should be designed for progamers. Nice.
EXACTLY! Thats the point of COMPETITIVE games. Blizzard is balancing the game for the pros. Casual dudes get the flashy graphics to drool about. Nobody will give a rats ass about a game that every noob can play good. Just look at C&C3. I think you should spent some time actually PLAYING Starcraft to get a grasp why this game is so awesome: 5 minutes to learn and a lifetime to master.
Sorry to bust everyone's bubble, and I do enjoy competitive games (its why I'm here on this board), but he reality is that most of the money Blizzard makes is from casual gamers. They just make their games so that everyone can enjoy something from it, newbs and pros alike. Don't forget, Starcraft is also well known for its awesome UMS map making tools (best around at the time).. thats not pro gamer orientated. Starcraft also has a lot of personality behind the units with the sounds and animations.. not pro gamer orientated.. starcraft also has a very immersive and awesome story/single-player campaign.. again not pro game orientated. There are much more even. Most of Starcraft was not intented to be a pro gamer esport.. they just wanted to make a kickass RTS game that was fun, and esports was a branch of their success with it.
Don't want to give you the wrong idea, I love watching pro gamers and I love playing competitively.. but just don't forget the reality of things here.....
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Stegosaur
Netherlands1231 Posts
On August 16 2007 11:03 yangstuh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2007 17:51 Senix wrote:On August 15 2007 16:16 Chodorkovskiy wrote:
So basically, you're saying the game should be designed for progamers. Nice.
EXACTLY! Thats the point of COMPETITIVE games. Blizzard is balancing the game for the pros. Casual dudes get the flashy graphics to drool about. Nobody will give a rats ass about a game that every noob can play good. Just look at C&C3. I think you should spent some time actually PLAYING Starcraft to get a grasp why this game is so awesome: 5 minutes to learn and a lifetime to master. Sorry to bust everyone's bubble, and I do enjoy competitive games (its why I'm here on this board), but he reality is that most of the money Blizzard makes is from casual gamers. They just make their games so that everyone can enjoy something from it, newbs and pros alike. Don't forget, Starcraft is also well known for its awesome UMS map making tools (best around at the time).. thats not pro gamer orientated. Starcraft also has a lot of personality behind the units with the sounds and animations.. not pro gamer orientated.. starcraft also has a very immersive and awesome story/single-player campaign.. again not pro game orientated. There are much more even. Most of Starcraft was not intented to be a pro gamer esport.. they just wanted to make a kickass RTS game that was fun, and esports was a branch of their success with it. Don't want to give you the wrong idea, I love watching pro gamers and I love playing competitively.. but just don't forget the reality of things here.....
The reality of things is that the proscene didn't even exist when Blizz made Starcraft. The reality also is that Chris Sigaty said in a video interview (I think it's with 1up or IGN, not sure) that they're developing SC2 with hardcore players in mind first and foremost, and they'd add stuff around it so it became playable for newbies as well.
Don't you think it would be stupid for Blizz not to develop SC2 with hardcore gamers in mind? I mean they're what kept Starcraft alive for 9 years, not John the Hydrarancher.
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On August 16 2007 05:49 fuglyfrog wrote:
I see, you are just going to ignore everything and spew random crap?
I get that way, yes. You should try it some time. It's relaxing.
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On August 16 2007 19:08 Stegosaur wrote:
they're developing SC2 with hardcore players in mind first and foremost, and they'd add stuff around it so it became playable for newbies as well.
And thus the new UI were born that made it possible for new players to enjoy the content!
But anyway, balance should always go for the highest levels first, but that doesnt mean that you can totally forget about the lower levels, and it gets easier to get a good low level balance if a low level game play with about the same rules as a high level game, just that they play it a lot worse.
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On August 16 2007 19:08 Stegosaur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2007 11:03 yangstuh wrote:On August 15 2007 17:51 Senix wrote:On August 15 2007 16:16 Chodorkovskiy wrote:
So basically, you're saying the game should be designed for progamers. Nice.
EXACTLY! Thats the point of COMPETITIVE games. Blizzard is balancing the game for the pros. Casual dudes get the flashy graphics to drool about. Nobody will give a rats ass about a game that every noob can play good. Just look at C&C3. I think you should spent some time actually PLAYING Starcraft to get a grasp why this game is so awesome: 5 minutes to learn and a lifetime to master. Sorry to bust everyone's bubble, and I do enjoy competitive games (its why I'm here on this board), but he reality is that most of the money Blizzard makes is from casual gamers. They just make their games so that everyone can enjoy something from it, newbs and pros alike. Don't forget, Starcraft is also well known for its awesome UMS map making tools (best around at the time).. thats not pro gamer orientated. Starcraft also has a lot of personality behind the units with the sounds and animations.. not pro gamer orientated.. starcraft also has a very immersive and awesome story/single-player campaign.. again not pro game orientated. There are much more even. Most of Starcraft was not intented to be a pro gamer esport.. they just wanted to make a kickass RTS game that was fun, and esports was a branch of their success with it. Don't want to give you the wrong idea, I love watching pro gamers and I love playing competitively.. but just don't forget the reality of things here..... The reality of things is that the proscene didn't even exist when Blizz made Starcraft. The reality also is that Chris Sigaty said in a video interview (I think it's with 1up or IGN, not sure) that they're developing SC2 with hardcore players in mind first and foremost, and they'd add stuff around it so it became playable for newbies as well. Don't you think it would be stupid for Blizz not to develop SC2 with hardcore gamers in mind? I mean they're what kept Starcraft alive for 9 years, not John the Hydrarancher.
The point is Starcraft kicked ass and we all loved it even though it wasn't even made to be an esport in the beginning. The Koreans turned it into an esport, which is a great thing of course.
But what kept Starcraft alive for so long is not John the Hydrarancher, or Jin The Gosu.. its a combination of all those elements and more. Believe it or not, Starcraft is more than just an awesome competitive sports that Koreans play to make money off of. It was the awesome story behind the game, it was the awesome campaign editor, it was the awesome and balanced gameplay, it was the awesome battle.net service, and it was the awesomely comical and serious personality of the game overall.
Its good that SC2 is being made with hardcore gamers in mind, in fact I want it to be. But the game has to be well rounded to become a successful Blizzard game. If you look at all of Blizzard's games they are very well rounded games that cater to everyone and give a lot to everyone. Its what makes Blizzard's games the best. Its not that they're games are the best games for casual players or the best games for hardcore competitive players. Its that their games are the BEST GAMES PERIOD. Just look at ALL of Blizzard's games.. Diablo, Warcraft, and Starcraft. They ALL have a very strong and huge community thats lasted since the beginning of their release. This is not th lower the importance of competitive play for the game, because its a major factor for its success.. but just don't forget the rest of the picture 
With that said, may SC2 be a huge success and continue the Starcraft Legacy that we all love.
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I don't know where this became: Blizzard must have everyone in mind = therefore smart casting is good.
There will inevitably be changes and additions to the old interface, but there are many ways to go about it. Just because smart casting is the genetic choice that has been done over and over again by every RTS that comes out it doesn't mean that it's the best choice for SCII. Honestly, I personally expect more from the sequel to the greatest RTS ever made.
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I don't mind if worker transfer don't need to clone, but hope you can't easy clone scourges.
That would make them too powerful. It is a similar reason to why ghost lost their lockdown for SC2 since it was too easy and powerful with easy clone.
When I watch the IEF 2007 ZvZ matches, the skill difference in micro was astounding. The defining skill was mutalisk and scourge micro. As the army got slightly larger, the micro difficulty increased when you have zerglings, mutalisk, scourges all over place.
Hopefully scourges aren't removed since they are pefect the way they are.
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EPT
