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Season 8 Lock and new Ladder changes incoming - Page 14

Forum Index > SC2 General
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ANoise
Profile Joined February 2011
United States67 Posts
September 07 2012 17:59 GMT
#261
This is exactly the kind of changes I like to see: cuts down on pointless effort by the player that won't effect the gameplay, and makes progress in the ranking system much more transparent.
Si, abbiamo un anima. Ma'e fatta piccoli di tanti robot.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 18:03:29
September 07 2012 18:03 GMT
#262
On September 08 2012 02:58 jinorazi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 18:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote:
so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid

If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.


isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on

You cannot make that conclusion.

It is only true on average.
MrF
Profile Joined October 2011
United States320 Posts
September 07 2012 18:06 GMT
#263
On September 07 2012 10:31 pallad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 10:28 Insomni7 wrote:
personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.


Didn't you know? Only master level players can handle that kind of information xD. Seriously though these all sound like good changes. I'll have to seriously consider actually unvetoing tal'darim altar. Also glad that it looks like they gave up on Metropolis for ladder, can't stand that map.


Not true.. , if you can count , you can do basic math from patch 1.5 . Im diamond and i can see "games played this seson" in profile , when i watch ladder i see wins , plus/minus and i got my win ratio , simple as that

First of all games played this season includes all game types as far as i know, not only team games but also custom, the latter being a recent addition, second why would they force people to do calculations to figure out their win loss ratio its not very as they say transparent, personally i like seeing all stats not less. It would be amazing if it went back to the super old style of showing win/loss info as well as vs race and map specific stats, but i guess thats too much to ask. As to the tier situation I dont see how this is really going to be accurate if the devesions are still just a section of 100 people it still comes down to luck and when you actually qualify for said devision, for example people who play their placement match on the first day of the new season will be placed amoung others who do the same so wouldnt that still mean that there are tiers of a sort, i say do away with the whole rank out of 100 system and go with a global elo with your rank being an actual percentile, however for some reason people or blizzrd doesnt seem to want this...
HunterXHunter is awesome
TheFrankOne
Profile Joined December 2010
United States667 Posts
September 07 2012 18:08 GMT
#264
On September 08 2012 03:03 paralleluniverse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 02:58 jinorazi wrote:
On September 07 2012 18:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote:
so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid

If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.


isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on

You cannot make that conclusion.

It is only true on average.


Doesn't it mean you are the top ranked out of a randomly selected group (in your league) instead of out of a group subtly biased to contain players of a certain skill level?
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 18:21:54
September 07 2012 18:18 GMT
#265
On September 08 2012 03:08 TheFrankOne wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 03:03 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 08 2012 02:58 jinorazi wrote:
On September 07 2012 18:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote:
so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid

If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.


isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on

You cannot make that conclusion.

It is only true on average.


Doesn't it mean you are the top ranked out of a randomly selected group (in your league) instead of out of a group subtly biased to contain players of a certain skill level?

Yes. But if there are 1000 random groups, several of them are randomly going to have higher skill than the rest. The distribution of the average skill of a group will be normally (not uniformly) distributed according to the central limit theorem, so some groups will be better than other simply because of random chance.

Being in the top 2% of a randomly selected group doesn't mean that you're in the top 2% of the league. It means on average you are in the top 2% of the league.
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 18:32:00
September 07 2012 18:28 GMT
#266
I wonder what Pardo, Browder and co. were thinking when they back-flipped to make this change. "But, but, it's so fun climbing the division ladder, seeing your points increase relative to a group of 100 players of almost equal skill". Right? "That's why we added the division tiers in the first place" -- the fact that these 100 arbitrary, faceless men were of very roughly equal skill meant that you got a chance to see your meaningless division rank climb (and fall).

What happened to this design philosophy? Did they realize that seeing your pointless division rank change wasn't so novel after all? Or do they still believe in this pointless ladder system, and only decided on this change after concluding that increasing the skill range of a division from 3.3% to 20% (6 division tiers currently?) won't be bad enough to diminish the FUN in climbing the division ladder? Or was it really because all of the sudden, after more than 2 years, they're concerned that promotions aren't transparent enough, as they admit. Really, what's changed their minds?
jinorazi
Profile Joined October 2004
Korea (South)4948 Posts
September 07 2012 18:32 GMT
#267
On September 08 2012 03:18 paralleluniverse wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 03:08 TheFrankOne wrote:
On September 08 2012 03:03 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 08 2012 02:58 jinorazi wrote:
On September 07 2012 18:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote:
so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid

If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.


isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on

You cannot make that conclusion.

It is only true on average.


Doesn't it mean you are the top ranked out of a randomly selected group (in your league) instead of out of a group subtly biased to contain players of a certain skill level?

Yes. But if there are 1000 random groups, several of them are randomly going to have higher skill than the rest. The distribution of the average skill of a group will be normally (not uniformly) distributed according to the central limit theorem, so some groups will be better than other simply because of random chance.

Being in the top 2% of a randomly selected group doesn't mean that you're in the top 2% of the league. It means on average you are in the top 2% of the league.


i think thats a given, i wasnt literally saying 2%, i was actually going to edit it with ~2% and so on but i got lazy.
it certainly holds more value than what it is now.
age: 84 | location: california | sex: 잘함
MarkyMark69
Profile Joined September 2012
Canada3 Posts
September 07 2012 18:36 GMT
#268
The Taldarim rocks removal is a great thing
StarCraft is the 2000s' chestgame. GO ROOT GO.
Greenei
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1754 Posts
September 07 2012 18:37 GMT
#269
i dont really care, mmr is the only thing that matters.
IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA
Zheryn
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden3653 Posts
September 07 2012 19:01 GMT
#270
On September 07 2012 16:59 ZwuckeL wrote:
Compare these divisions:

I call this division A: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1582414/1/ATǂCENSURE/ladder/leagues

and this division B: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1274090/1/CuteZerg/ladder/leagues

Division A was most likely established very early into the season, Division B quite a lot later.
Now you can see that the first ranked player in B would be only be placed 12th in division A.
B 2nd player would be 14th in A
B 3rd player would be 17th in A
and so on...

this pretty much fails hard at the statement "Place 1 roughly equals top 1% of playerbase"
Though it could be right for the first player in division B, what about the players in divsion A, placed 2-12 ?? According to their rating and compared to the first player of division B, they would also be top 1% of the playerbase. According to blizzards statement though, they are only best 10% of the playerbase.

edit: even bigger is the difference between those divisions' top 50, which would equal to "being top 50% of the playerbase"
Division A Top50 players include all until 1032 ponts.
Division B Top50 players include all unitl 380 points.

So reading blizzard's statement, the player placed 50th in division B would think he is one of the 50% highest rated players in master league. (which he isn't, because the difference between different aged divisions is too big)


Very good post. I do hope they will do something about this, but I doubt it will happend. As it is now, rank in Masters means nothing.
hundred thousand krouner
Sakray
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
France2198 Posts
September 07 2012 19:08 GMT
#271
This TDA change is dumb imo, before people said it was protoss favored in PvZ (well the winrates of both were still close), now it's just heavily Z favored :/
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
September 07 2012 19:12 GMT
#272
On September 07 2012 16:59 ZwuckeL wrote:
Compare these divisions:

I call this division A: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1582414/1/ATǂCENSURE/ladder/leagues

and this division B: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1274090/1/CuteZerg/ladder/leagues

Division A was most likely established very early into the season, Division B quite a lot later.
Now you can see that the first ranked player in B would be only be placed 12th in division A.
B 2nd player would be 14th in A
B 3rd player would be 17th in A
and so on...

this pretty much fails hard at the statement "Place 1 roughly equals top 1% of playerbase"
Though it could be right for the first player in division B, what about the players in divsion A, placed 2-12 ?? According to their rating and compared to the first player of division B, they would also be top 1% of the playerbase. According to blizzards statement though, they are only best 10% of the playerbase.

edit: even bigger is the difference between those divisions' top 50, which would equal to "being top 50% of the playerbase"
Division A Top50 players include all until 1032 ponts.
Division B Top50 players include all unitl 380 points.

So reading blizzard's statement, the player placed 50th in division B would think he is one of the 50% highest rated players in master league. (which he isn't, because the difference between different aged divisions is too big)

Ahh yes, how could we forget this.

Divisions that are created earlier tend to have a lot better players than divisions created later, because good players are more likely to start playing at the beginning of the season.

This was seen throughout beta where divisions were numbered 1, 2, 3, etc, and the first few divisions that were filled before the later ones had all the best players.
stevarius
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1394 Posts
September 07 2012 19:16 GMT
#273
The only way I could see this new ladder rank change working is if players can freely change divisions to try and keep the rankings as accurate as possible. If they're locked in it is going to be weird still.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Gyro_SC2
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada540 Posts
September 07 2012 19:23 GMT
#274
But I don't understand, when the season start everybody got 0 point right ? so we start with the same point event if with don't have the same MMR ?
paralleluniverse
Profile Joined July 2010
4065 Posts
September 07 2012 19:29 GMT
#275
On September 08 2012 04:16 stevarius wrote:
The only way I could see this new ladder rank change working is if players can freely change divisions to try and keep the rankings as accurate as possible. If they're locked in it is going to be weird still.

With no division tiers, you can compare points directly.

Completely ignore divisions. Pretend that they do not exist.
TRaFFiC
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Canada1448 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 20:52:05
September 07 2012 20:51 GMT
#276
On September 08 2012 03:28 paralleluniverse wrote:
I wonder what Pardo, Browder and co. were thinking when they back-flipped to make this change. "But, but, it's so fun climbing the division ladder, seeing your points increase relative to a group of 100 players of almost equal skill". Right? "That's why we added the division tiers in the first place" -- the fact that these 100 arbitrary, faceless men were of very roughly equal skill meant that you got a chance to see your meaningless division rank climb (and fall).

What happened to this design philosophy? Did they realize that seeing your pointless division rank change wasn't so novel after all? Or do they still believe in this pointless ladder system, and only decided on this change after concluding that increasing the skill range of a division from 3.3% to 20% (6 division tiers currently?) won't be bad enough to diminish the FUN in climbing the division ladder? Or was it really because all of the sudden, after more than 2 years, they're concerned that promotions aren't transparent enough, as they admit. Really, what's changed their minds?

HOTS is out.
2v2, 1v1, Zerg, Terran http://www.twitch.tv/trafficsc2
Maggost
Profile Joined August 2011
Venezuela296 Posts
September 07 2012 20:52 GMT
#277
On September 07 2012 10:10 emc wrote:
personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.


I hope not, Wins/loss ratio are bad, i dont wanna see how terrible i am in SC2, plus its good that we dont see the ladder position too in the main page of our profiles. Less info stats = better for our minds.
Quote
Damrak
Profile Joined January 2012
Netherlands124 Posts
September 07 2012 20:55 GMT
#278
You can finally say that you are the 1%

NeThZOR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa7387 Posts
September 07 2012 20:58 GMT
#279
I gladly invite this sort of move by Blizzard. How long have we not waited to see the ladder changed to meet the expectations of those who take laddering very seriously? I do not necessarily take it very seriously, but the changes are nonetheless welcome. Now we can finally see how we really stack up against the rest of the region's players, making it easier to compare the skill level between different players.
SuperNova - 2015 | SKT1 fan for years | Dear, FlaSh, PartinG, Soulkey, Naniwa
mango_destroyer
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3914 Posts
September 07 2012 21:57 GMT
#280
On September 08 2012 05:52 Maggost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 10:10 emc wrote:
personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.


I hope not, Wins/loss ratio are bad, i dont wanna see how terrible i am in SC2, plus its good that we dont see the ladder position too in the main page of our profiles. Less info stats = better for our minds.


So people like you DO exist!.....=(

That`s too bad I really don`t see the big deal with people seeing their own stats. Do ugly people ignore the mirror too?
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