Currently not all divisions within a League are created equal. Individual divisions are actually assigned to different “tiers”, and players are assigned to tiers based on skill. This system hasn't been very transparent, making it difficult to determine your next promotion. For example, if you’re in a lower tiered Diamond division, just getting to Rank 1 doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll see a promotion soon.
With the goal of increasing transparency for ladder players, we’re removing tiers from the ladder with the commencement of 2012 Season 4. The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they’re at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.
Also taldarim has it's rocks removed at the 3rd!
edit: it literally means, rank 100 - 1 is the top %100 to %1 of your rank, bronze all the way to GM. If you are 100 bronze you are literally the worst player in the entire game, along with the other 100's that will exist. We will still have divisions and compete within our division, but it will make going up a rank, from 53 to 52, actually mean something, but it will probably take more work now. So those achievements you got for getting top 8 in your division? well that's going to be very hard to get now.
Excal_Z edit: This ladder change is going to mean that all of the leagues will now become just like Master league (except for showing losses). There will still be divisions of 100 players each, but they'll all be equal and therefore no longer apply hidden offsets. Therefore, in an ideal environment with the skill of all players evenly distributed across divisions (meaning you don't have Division 1 with all GSL Code S players and Division 2 with all GSL Code B players) and as long as everyone is spending all their bonus pool, what Blizzard says is accurate: rank 1 would roughly equate to the top 1% of the league.
Incidentally, this is going to make sites like SC2Ranks far more accurate as a means to gauge how you rank among the rest of your league.
Note that promotions will still be determined by MMR, the removal of division tiers only affects the points that are displayed in divisional rankings.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
This is the way it should've worked from the beginning. I'm happy we're getting it.
I like the TA changes (because I am Zerg ), but no new 1v1 maps? Really?
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
This is the way it should've worked from the beginning. I'm happy we're getting it.
I like the TA changes (because I am Zerg ), but no new 1v1 maps? Really?
probably not on their to do list with HotS and all.. Also, I bet this GM will be easier to get into since I know most pros will be only playing HotS to prepare themselves.
Looking forward to this! It always was annoying when you were Rank 1 in your division but because it was a new group, it didn't mean anything unless you went to SC2rank or something similar.
Happy about new system for the ladder tire removal, but I am a bit disappointed that the map pool has not changed. I was really looking forward to seeing some new maps.
On September 07 2012 10:16 DGB.Zerok wrote: Can someone explain me a little better what is ladder tier? My english sucks
Ladder tier means theirs different tiers in each league/division so just because you are at rank 1 in diamond you could be at a low tier division in diamond meaning you probably won't be promoted just because of that. This change will make it easier to tell where you are in terms of skill and whether you will be promoted or not.
On September 07 2012 10:16 DGB.Zerok wrote: Can someone explain me a little better what is ladder tier? My english sucks
Ladder tier means theirs different tiers in each league/division so just because you are at rank 1 in diamond you could be at a low tier division in diamond meaning you probably won't be promoted just because of that. This change will make it easier to tell where you are in terms of skill and whether you will be promoted or not.
On September 07 2012 10:20 blade55555 wrote: So does that mean no more divisions unless I am mistaken?
most likely? but who knows, that would mean you'd open your ladder and see thousands of names. But, maybe they will keep the divisions but have a regional ranking (like in SC2ranks) next to your name. Who knows how it will work, but they promised that being rank 1 in masters means you are literally #1 in masters so we will see.
On September 07 2012 10:16 DGB.Zerok wrote: Can someone explain me a little better what is ladder tier? My english sucks
Its very simple. Before trier remove you have:
1) Some bad divisions , for players that are bit worste then others 2) Some Better divisions , for players a little bit better then others.
There was a time when you watch divisions , when in one division top 10 players have like 1500 points , and in other division top 10 players have like 700-800 points.
Now you only get one kind of division , mixing better and worse player. Like blizzard write , now if you are for example in top 10 plat , you are in top 10% players in your region , ofc plat
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
How would that work, then? Wouldn't that mean that individual divisions would have to be entirely fluid? After all, if you have a division with 100 at one point selected players, that is static apart from promotions and demotions, it'd be impossible to make such a definitive statement.
Sorry for my stupidity, but I'm still not sure how the no tier system is going to work. Do we still have divisions? Are all players within a league (bronze, silver, gold, platinum, etc) ranked in the same division? Do you move between divisions in the new system? Or does the division thing stays but if you make it to the top of it, it means you're close to a promotion? In this case how exactly are they arranging divisions, since some would be easier than others?
So wait will we no longer have tiers? So will we still see our point compared to others? Or will it just be your rank shown to show you how high you are?
On September 07 2012 10:16 DGB.Zerok wrote: Can someone explain me a little better what is ladder tier? My english sucks
Before, two rank 1 platinum players may have totally different skill levels.. because one was in a harder division while the other was in the weaker division.
After the change, two rank 1 platinum players will have roughly the same skill levels; they both will be top 1% of platinum players.
On September 07 2012 10:20 blade55555 wrote: So does that mean no more divisions unless I am mistaken?
Bronze, silver, gold, plat, diamond, master, GM all still exist.
No tiers in these divisions.
Unless you mean division like "beta zeratul" division. In this case, yes there should still be some i think? But your rank will correspond to skill position more accurately? tbh I dont even understand how this works but it wont matter because I play the game and dont care specifically what place i am in on a list of people in a ladder division.
Though how being rank 50 means you are in top 50% percentile i dont understand what with bonus pool and ladder being based on points and not MMR. But here it seems like MMR shows where you are in the overall pool of diamond players for example. In which case your points is your MMR????
We should just simply use an elo system and give people a rank based on that.
That is cool. Doe the first time since Season 1 this actually matters to me since I have recently started laddering again. LoL. I hope the changes work out...but I also hope that someday they will implement a 2v2 map where you can actually expand on...
On September 07 2012 10:23 phfantunes wrote: Sorry for my stupidity, but I'm still not sure how the no tier system is going to work. Do we still have divisions? Are all players within a league (bronze, silver, gold, platinum, etc) ranked in the same division? Do you move between divisions in the new system? Or does the division thing stays but if you make it to the top of it, it means you're close to a promotion? In this case how exactly are they arranging divisions, since some would be easier than others?
Not one division , there will be still 100 players division , but with mix of better and worste players. No waek , good divisions anymore. Watch my post up
So now if you hit for example top 10 , you are in top 10% players in your region NA/EU/KR etc etc
personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.
Didn't you know? Only master level players can handle that kind of information xD. Seriously though these all sound like good changes. I'll have to seriously consider actually unvetoing tal'darim altar. Also glad that it looks like they gave up on Metropolis for ladder, can't stand that map.
Now can you fix all the maps that don't have neutral supply depots, and the maps that allow close spawn positions like Entombed Valley and Antiga Shipyard...
personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.
Didn't you know? Only master level players can handle that kind of information xD. Seriously though these all sound like good changes. I'll have to seriously consider actually unvetoing tal'darim altar. Also glad that it looks like they gave up on Metropolis for ladder, can't stand that map.
Not true.. , if you can count , you can do basic math from patch 1.5 . Im diamond and i can see "games played this seson" in profile , when i watch ladder i see wins , plus/minus and i got my win ratio , simple as that
I think this new ladder system just might work out! As for TDA, I was thinking of unveto-ing it but 5 seconds after, I think I'll still have it vetoed until it is removed.
On September 07 2012 10:32 c0ldfusion wrote: FYI, master (and gold) only had 1 tier anyway. Diamond and bronze and the leagues most affected. But in general it's not a big change at all.
When I heard big changes were coming, I was hoping that Blizz would show us our mmr. Sigh...
On September 07 2012 10:38 LiquidFahq wrote: No fix for the 15 second delay that a lot of player have in every game after 1.5 patch? Seems unfair.
lol what ? Its not HOTS beta.. , you need to move your workers , you know that right?
Uh what does your post have to do with his post in anyway? He said no fix for the 15 second delay that supposidly is affecting a lot of players (I haven't heard of it really being a problem) but your post has nothing to do with his.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
How would that work, then? Wouldn't that mean that individual divisions would have to be entirely fluid? After all, if you have a division with 100 at one point selected players, that is static apart from promotions and demotions, it'd be impossible to make such a definitive statement.
That's how I feel. But it's not like you play the people in your division anyways, so if I get better and I need to be put in a new division then so be it.
But now you can say okay i have 500 in diamond, and he has 500 in diamond. That will mean something. If you're not in the 500 diamond range then you will earn less points for wins, and lose more points for losses until you improve your MMR to that range. So it will definitely help when comparing players.
It's good the are moving to ratio/percentile based system for the leagues. Makes it much easier to figure out where you are at rather than going on SC2ranks.com.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
How would that work, then? Wouldn't that mean that individual divisions would have to be entirely fluid? After all, if you have a division with 100 at one point selected players, that is static apart from promotions and demotions, it'd be impossible to make such a definitive statement.
No, I doubt divisions will be fluid. What will happen is division modifiers will be removed. Modifiers are +point adjustments that are applied to players in "worse" divisions to inflate their point levels. The initial idea, I think, was so that all divisions would have similar point levels regardless of tier. So suppose a higher diamond division (let's call it an S-tier Diamond division) has people ranging from 300-1000 points. A low-MMR diamond division (let's call it a E-tier Diamond division) has points ranging from 300-1000 as well, but everyone in this E-tier division has a lower MMR and really only has between 100-800 points, but boosted +200 to normalize.
I think in this case, they will have divisions but you will probably be moved around between divisions instead of staying in one. You will probably have 100 player divisions still because it's simply easier to see, I don't think blizzard will go to xbl/ps3 leaderboard style with thousands of different names and you have to scroll up a lot just to see #1. I think instead we're going to see groups of 100 still, but when someone gets to #1 in their division, and they haven't beaten the #1 in their division in MMR, then they probably get moved to another division to be #1 over there. Essentially, blizzard is going to try and balance out all the divisions by making it seem like there aren't tiers at all, but that's just my guess.
So what this means is each rank, 1-100 corresponds to a percentile. if you are exactly rank 50, but there is someone else who is rank 50 in your division, you probably get moved to a new one where you can fit.
I'm not sure how else they'd do it, unless they grouped everyone together into one giant leaderboard for each rank like SC2ranks
Holy shit, the ladder placement in each league will actually mean something O_o. Have do admit it was quite fun watching Masters getting their asses kicked by low level plat players.
EDIT: Like what @emc said, the divisions and max 100 players per division will remain, now however the top 5 and top 10 truly represents the top 5 and top 10% of the league. If we have 10 divisions with 1000 people then each person that is top 1 will truly be the top 1% since that number one spot only shared with 9 other people, top 5 will only be shared by 50 people and so on.
no tiers sound good but looking at the team map changes it appears that instead of removing all the old maps (all of them) and giving us new maps they have cycled in the old ones they had a long time ago which is a bit sad.
Oh and it is going to such when your playing 3v3 on the new silent dunes map (looks like a reskined version of frontier) and the middle person with the two ramps gets 6pooled and you lose the game in a 2v3.
Well I don't really have any complaints. Didn't know the Tier thing even existed lol. I like the change on Tal'Darim with the rocks, I kinda don't like rocks lol
On September 07 2012 10:54 dynwar7 wrote: Wait, when they say tiers, it means divisions right? If not, then where can I see tiers?
Two divisions within a league are not necessarily equal. Some diamond leagues for instance were up to 400+ points higher than other diamond leagues. This meant saying you are a 800 point diamond league player meant very little because we had no way of determining the tier of your diamond league division.
Next season, all divisions within a league will be the same tier. This means saying you are an 800 point diamond player will have some limited value. It still won't be as useful as MMR, but it will be a means of comparing your rating to other diamond player ratings. Today, such a comparison is useless. The only way to compare two diamond players now is to see who their opponents are and how often they play plat or master players.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players
how is this possible. If I was barley in diamond and I improved I would have more points than a near master diamond player who was just maintaining his skill, because who you are matched against is based on your MMR not your points? am I missing something?
We need at least the WCS version of the map on ladder. I would post about this on their forums but I can't figure out why and how to take off parental control.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players
how is this possible. If I was barley in diamond and I improved I would have more points than a near master diamond player who was just maintaining his skill, because who you are matched against is based on your MMR not your points? am I missing something?
What they mean is you are near the top 2% of points not MMR. But you will be a lot closer to the top 2% of MMR than today because when points get really high, your points tend to have a stronger correlation to MMR. To get a lot of points (more specifically adjusted points which are total points minus spent bonus pool), you have to win a lot more than you lose. Doing this means your MMR is likely higher. So having higher points can mean a higher MMR.
With the removal of the division tiers, getting to Rank 2 diamond or platinum will be a closer reflection of your MMR than it is today. However, as you mentioned, points are not MMR and higher points might correlate to higher MMR but they do not cause higher MMR (the age old maxim of correlation is not causation).
What Blizzard is trying to say is that next season, your points will more closely track your MMR. This will be truer for people who are towards the top of their division as people who play only bonus pool games will have much higher display points than their actual placement. Also, some divisions will be more active than others so the top 2 in a less active division might have a lot less points.
TLDR: Points next season will have a stronger correlation to MMR than points do this season for most people in leagues below master.
i actually think the tier removal was a good idea, now it will show a good understanding of where you rank in the league your placed... not sure about the rocks not like it was a major issue before anyway.
This is one of the things that i think should of happened from the start as that way by being in diamond for example you know that you are actually in diamond not just and low tier diamond that is pretty much platinum. GL at trying to get win loss ratio back mad me laugh when you stuck that comment in at the end.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players
how is this possible. If I was barley in diamond and I improved I would have more points than a near master diamond player who was just maintaining his skill, because who you are matched against is based on your MMR not your points? am I missing something?
What they mean is you are near the top 2% of points not MMR. But you will be a lot closer to the top 2% of MMR than today because when points get really high, your points tend to have a stronger correlation to MMR. To get a lot of points (more specifically adjusted points which are total points minus spent bonus pool), you have to win a lot more than you lose. Doing this means your MMR is likely higher. So having higher points can mean a higher MMR.
With the removal of the division tiers, getting to Rank 2 diamond or platinum will be a closer reflection of your MMR than it is today. However, as you mentioned, points are not MMR and higher points might correlate to higher MMR but they do not cause higher MMR (the age old maxim of correlation is not causation).
What Blizzard is trying to say is that next season, your points will more closely track your MMR. This will be truer for people who are towards the top of their division as people who play only bonus pool games will have much higher display points than their actual placement. Also, some divisions will be more active than others so the top 2 in a less active division might have a lot less points.
TLDR: Points next season will have a stronger correlation to MMR than points do this season for most people in leagues below master.
On September 07 2012 11:39 Gamegene wrote: i hope i don't have to see "rank 859" or something ridiculous like that.
No, there are still divisions, they're just all equal skill-wise. There used to be hidden tiers of divisions within each league, where some divisions had better players than others in the same league. Now all divisions have players of all skill levels within each league.
Why is metropolis not in the pool?? i understand that they're fixing Tal da rim but i feel like the map just needs to go. Tal da rim and shakuras should both be out and metropolis and atlantis spaceship should be in. I am a fan of the new ladder system though.
Glad they fixed the Zerg issue on TDA. I'm still vetoing it on account of PvP though. I wish they'd do us the same kindness they did Zerg and give it a ramp.
Will you get promoted/demoted into different division if your mmr is shifted? I dont really get it but it is awesome! Top 1 Diamond = Promotion! Now laddering has a meaning.
Cool change, shame I struggle playing WoL since HOTS came out even tho I didnt get into HOTS yet >< Guess I wont be playing any Starcraft anytime soon lols
dont call the day before the evening... Im still waiting for the trap... Lets see if they remove the mmr-cap for lower leagues and the other special rules too.
Also some points in the post of blizzard are not true.
This is great! Hopefully will help me track my current MMR better, and motivate me to get to higher ranks because it actually has a significant meaning to it now.
On September 07 2012 11:39 Gamegene wrote: i hope i don't have to see "rank 859" or something ridiculous like that.
I would much, much rather see "rank 7,127 / 20,326" comparing me to everyone else with the same league than a relatively meaningless number comparing me to 99 random people who placed into the same league as me at roughly the same time. It's great that they're removing division tiers, but now we're just going to get random divisions that are only representative of anything *on average*. Rank 2/100 diamond should mean you're in the 98th percentile of diamond players in your region, but unless they scrap the idea of divisions altogether, I don't see how Blizzard can make sure every division is a perfect bell curve that matches the MMR distribution of that league overall.
Such a pathetic map pool. I really thought that Blizzard was starting to come along when they added Daybreak/Metropolis/etc., but it appears that the progress is less than I assumed.
How hard is it to make a map pool without ridiculous maps like Sharkuas/Condemned/Taldarim?
If they want more maps pick a few from ESV or GSL. Don't keep adding random imbalanced maps and/or forgetting to remove the carcasses of maps that nobody likes/uses anymore.
It makes so much sense now ! But if I am reading this correctly they should prolly cap it off at 50 or so cos nobody wants be the last 99% of any league. Just having 50 or less would be kinder to the soul
They need for fix the damn map pool. Shakuras, condemed and TDA should be out, Antiga should be cross spawn only and they could add Whirlind (awesome map) and maybe atlantis or metropolis.
Edit : Oh and something that denied cheesy play like triple pylon to block the cliff..
On September 07 2012 12:27 T0fuuu wrote: It makes so much sense now ! But if I am reading this correctly they should prolly cap it off at 50 or so cos nobody wants be the last 99% of any league. Just having 50 or less would be kinder to the soul
Starcraft is not kind to the soul; tough shit. That sort of thinking is the reason we can't just see our MMR in the first place. Arg.
On September 07 2012 11:39 Gamegene wrote: i hope i don't have to see "rank 859" or something ridiculous like that.
I would much, much rather see "rank 7,127 / 20,326" comparing me to everyone else with the same league than a relatively meaningless number comparing me to 99 random people who placed into the same league as me at roughly the same time. It's great that they're removing division tiers, but now we're just going to get random divisions that are only representative of anything *on average*. Rank 2/100 diamond should mean you're in the 98th percentile of diamond players in your region, but unless they scrap the idea of divisions altogether, I don't see how Blizzard can make sure every division is a perfect bell curve that matches the MMR distribution of that league overall.
sounds like what they are doing is removing the divisions all together..
you won't be seeing 859/1400 either.. you will just get a rank based on the percent of people you are ranked against. So if you are in the top 40% you will be rank 40. if you are low plat it will be plat. rank 90 or something like that. That's what I think it will be
On September 07 2012 11:39 Gamegene wrote: i hope i don't have to see "rank 859" or something ridiculous like that.
I would much, much rather see "rank 7,127 / 20,326" comparing me to everyone else with the same league than a relatively meaningless number comparing me to 99 random people who placed into the same league as me at roughly the same time. It's great that they're removing division tiers, but now we're just going to get random divisions that are only representative of anything *on average*. Rank 2/100 diamond should mean you're in the 98th percentile of diamond players in your region, but unless they scrap the idea of divisions altogether, I don't see how Blizzard can make sure every division is a perfect bell curve that matches the MMR distribution of that league overall.
sounds like what they are doing is removing the divisions all together..
you won't be seeing 859/1400 either.. you will just get a rank based on the percent of people you are ranked against. So if you are in the top 40% you will be rank 40. if you are low plat it will be plat. rank 90 or something like that. That's what I think it will be
Ah, in that case that's fantastic, if the "ranks" are just placeholders for percentiles and not a ranking against a fixed group of 100 particular players. Finally, some real statistics below masters/GM!
I have always loved Tal'Darim altar GSL version so this makes me very happy. I like that they did not move more of the 1v1 map pool, it allows for better gameplay in a competitive map pool (would love the return of Metropolis tho).
On September 07 2012 13:12 Kharnage wrote: Win / Loss is irrelivant. esepcially now that they have broadened the MMR search window.
I'm completely mixed up after they changed this and changed it back again... Are you absolutely sure the MMR search window is broadened now, or is it back to how it was?
It seems this is going to make the ladders much more competitive, as it will be much harder to get to number one in your league. The more transparency where promotion and ranking are concerned the better in my opinion, it's very frustrating to be at number one in your division and you still don't get promoted.
As OP said, Blizzard definitely needs to bring back win/loss ratios for those below Masters. The reason they originally removed it doesn't make much sense, just because some people feel bad about their win/loss doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't get to know.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't taking the rocks out on taldarim benefit Zerg more than the other races? And the map wasn't exactly bad for zerg before... I dunno, could be totally wrong here.
On September 07 2012 13:12 Kharnage wrote: Tier removal is awesome. Win / Loss is irrelivant. esepcially now that they have broadened the MMR search window.
Taldarim rocks removal is good, but I will still veto it. Because PvP.
just put that damn rocks by the main choke so we can close it with 1 FF, plz blizz
Cool change regarding the ladder tiers, and I suppose removing rocks on Tal'darim is a good step as well.
However, I find it funny that for the 3v3 and 4v4 map pools they removed two maps each, but of the four replacement maps three are recycled from very old maps.
On September 07 2012 11:39 Gamegene wrote: i hope i don't have to see "rank 859" or something ridiculous like that.
I would much, much rather see "rank 7,127 / 20,326" comparing me to everyone else with the same league than a relatively meaningless number comparing me to 99 random people who placed into the same league as me at roughly the same time. It's great that they're removing division tiers, but now we're just going to get random divisions that are only representative of anything *on average*. Rank 2/100 diamond should mean you're in the 98th percentile of diamond players in your region, but unless they scrap the idea of divisions altogether, I don't see how Blizzard can make sure every division is a perfect bell curve that matches the MMR distribution of that league overall.
sounds like what they are doing is removing the divisions all together..
you won't be seeing 859/1400 either.. you will just get a rank based on the percent of people you are ranked against. So if you are in the top 40% you will be rank 40. if you are low plat it will be plat. rank 90 or something like that. That's what I think it will be
Not exactly. There will still be divisions. For example, there will be still X number of Diamond divisions with 100 players each.
In the current season, not all Diamond divisions are created equal. For example some Diamond divisions are lower 'tier'. In other words, the players in that division are of lower quality that other Diamond divisions. For diamond there are 7 such 'tiers'. In this system, being Rank 1 of your division, doesn't mean your in the top 1% of Diamond players. A Rank 1 diamond player from a Diamond division in the lowest tier will have a much lower MMR than a rank 1 player from the highest tier (that player will be playing Masters players fairly constantly). There's no way to compare rank across divisions because this 'tier' property isn't visible or accessible anywhere.
In the new season, there will be no such separation. All Diamond divisions will be created equal. Being Rank 1 Diamond will mean you are in the top 1% of Diamond players.
Wow never even knew about this... 2 seasons ago played over 100 games to try and get out of bronze winning 80% of them and being top 5 and facing a gold or silver player every once in a while and beating them easily and wondering why I wasnt close to promotion if that was happening >_<
Maybe my drive to ladder will come back :o
On September 07 2012 13:38 Jimmy Raynor wrote: Can someone explain to me this? What if I get into a division where most people played 2 games and then went inactive, and I climbed to 1st place?
Means nothing really.. Just helps to identify when you can be close to a promotion.. Like silver players staying top 3 in their division and wondering why they've played 50+ games winning a large sum of them and gradually running into gold league players and winning and yet not seeing a promotion at all...
Alot of lower league players have been really confused as it hasnt been clear about how high skill you actually are and playing and winning as much as someone else in your league and them getting promoted and your still stuck in said league
Yup, now all we need is W/L ratio back. Now that active players are the only ones playing. Not many newbs remaining because they have been weeded out by ladder anxiety, rage quitting, league of legends and any other reasons you can [insert here].
Lack of ladder map changes is unbelievably disheartening. Dozens of tourney quality maps available....and they take out rocks on TDA. What an utter joke.
Damn they should have done this like 5 months ago when I still played this game. I was consistently top 3 in diamond but couldn't get in Master so I quit for Diablo 3. Shit.
Added an explanation to the OP since it seems people aren't really sure what this is going to mean. It's sort of sad that a significant amount of research is basically going to waste, but this is for the best. One effect of this change is that promotions will probably come more quickly because it's not going to hold your promotion in the event that you're bouncing between Tier 1 and Tier 2, there is only one tier now so promotions should come about as quickly as they do going from (high-tier) Diamond into Master.
This sounds very shady to me. There is really no way they can accomplish what they wrote in the blog.
The only way that would work is to switch players between divisions, while the season lasts, which makes the purpose of division pretty much obsolete (competing vs only 99 others who you'd recognize by their names).
Another option would be that the initial seeding in the divisions happens according to the rank everyone is internally right then. So each division gets one player out of top1%, top1-2%, top 2-3%, etc. But these rankings could easily switch over the season and could end up in more than 1 player being in the top 1% overall ranking. Thus these guys would have to switch divisions again, while the season is lasting.
I am really curious how blizzard is going to fix this.
On September 07 2012 16:26 ZwuckeL wrote: This sounds very shady to me. There is really no way they can accomplish what they wrote in the blog.
The only way that would work is to switch players between divisions, while the season lasts, which makes the purpose of division pretty much obsolete (competing vs only 99 others who you'd recognize by their names).
Another option would be that the initial seeding in the divisions happens according to the rank everyone is internally right then. So each division gets one player out of top1%, top1-2%, top 2-3%, etc. But these rankings could easily switch over the season and could end up in more than 1 player being in the top 1% overall ranking. Thus these guys would have to switch divisions again, while the season is lasting.
I am really curious how blizzard is going to fix this.
Why would they need to switch players between divisions if all divisions are equal? Rank 50 in one division is the same as rank 50 in another division of the same league, and vice versa.
Excal_Z edit: This ladder change is going to mean that all of the leagues will now become just like Master league (except for showing losses). There will still be divisions of 100 players each, but they'll all be equal and therefore no longer apply hidden offsets. Therefore, in an ideal environment with the skill of all players evenly distributed across divisions (meaning you don't have Division 1 with all GSL Code S players and Division 2 with all GSL Code B players) and as long as everyone is spending all their bonus pool, what Blizzard says is accurate: rank 1 would roughly equate to the top 1% of the league.
I understand the removing of the tier system, but the way you explain it made me understand that currently, in master league, division system is already meaningful and being top 5 in Master means you are the top 5% of Master League : This is not the case ! because of the "first placed, first joined" division, and some divisions are weaker than others.
On September 07 2012 16:26 ZwuckeL wrote: This sounds very shady to me. There is really no way they can accomplish what they wrote in the blog.
The only way that would work is to switch players between divisions, while the season lasts, which makes the purpose of division pretty much obsolete (competing vs only 99 others who you'd recognize by their names).
Another option would be that the initial seeding in the divisions happens according to the rank everyone is internally right then. So each division gets one player out of top1%, top1-2%, top 2-3%, etc. But these rankings could easily switch over the season and could end up in more than 1 player being in the top 1% overall ranking. Thus these guys would have to switch divisions again, while the season is lasting.
I am really curious how blizzard is going to fix this.
Why would they need to switch players between divisions if all divisions are equal? Rank 50 in one division is the same as rank 50 in another division of the same league, and vice versa.
Like Excalibur said, they most like just make every league work like master works now.
Right now, divisions are filled by activity. There is always 1 division created at a time, where everyone who does their placement match gets put into. This results in the early divisions are extremely stacked with good players (cause they often do their placements intant after ladder reset). it's common that the first divisions of the season contain more than 25 players with 1500+ rating, where the first one has near grandmaster rating.
whereas a master division created just by now, the first player will have 800 points, the 10th player maybe 200 points. the very late master divisions created mostly consist of very inactive master players who do at most 5 games per season or diamond players who have just advanced and thus clearely arent as good as the standard master player
After blizzards post, it would mean that the 800point player is on the best 1% of the playerbase which he clearly is not. So they have to also create a new way to populate the divisions.
Excal_Z edit: This ladder change is going to mean that all of the leagues will now become just like Master league (except for showing losses). There will still be divisions of 100 players each, but they'll all be equal and therefore no longer apply hidden offsets. Therefore, in an ideal environment with the skill of all players evenly distributed across divisions (meaning you don't have Division 1 with all GSL Code S players and Division 2 with all GSL Code B players) and as long as everyone is spending all their bonus pool, what Blizzard says is accurate: rank 1 would roughly equate to the top 1% of the league.
I understand the removing of the tier system, but the way you explain it made me understand that currently, in master league, division system is already meaningful and being top 5 in Master means you are the top 5% of Master League : This is not the case ! because of the "first placed, first joined" division, and some divisions are weaker than others.
On September 07 2012 16:26 ZwuckeL wrote: This sounds very shady to me. There is really no way they can accomplish what they wrote in the blog.
The only way that would work is to switch players between divisions, while the season lasts, which makes the purpose of division pretty much obsolete (competing vs only 99 others who you'd recognize by their names).
Another option would be that the initial seeding in the divisions happens according to the rank everyone is internally right then. So each division gets one player out of top1%, top1-2%, top 2-3%, etc. But these rankings could easily switch over the season and could end up in more than 1 player being in the top 1% overall ranking. Thus these guys would have to switch divisions again, while the season is lasting.
I am really curious how blizzard is going to fix this.
Why would they need to switch players between divisions if all divisions are equal? Rank 50 in one division is the same as rank 50 in another division of the same league, and vice versa.
Like Excalibur said, they most like just make every league work like master works now.
Right now, divisions are filled by activity. There is always 1 division created at a time, where everyone who does their placement match gets put into. This results in the early divisions are extremely stacked with good players (cause they often do their placements intant after ladder reset). it's common that the first divisions of the season contain more than 25 players with 1500+ rating, where the first one has near grandmaster rating.
whereas a master division created just by now, the first player will have 800 points, the 10th player maybe 200 points.
After blizzards post, it would mean that the 800point player is on the best 1% of the playerbase which he clearly is not. So they have to also create a new way to populate the divisions.
The system isn't perfect, and they said this was a change to lower leagues so I don't think they'll be able to change masters. You have a point, but they never mentioned masters in the blog post.
On September 07 2012 16:26 ZwuckeL wrote: This sounds very shady to me. There is really no way they can accomplish what they wrote in the blog.
The only way that would work is to switch players between divisions, while the season lasts, which makes the purpose of division pretty much obsolete (competing vs only 99 others who you'd recognize by their names).
Another option would be that the initial seeding in the divisions happens according to the rank everyone is internally right then. So each division gets one player out of top1%, top1-2%, top 2-3%, etc. But these rankings could easily switch over the season and could end up in more than 1 player being in the top 1% overall ranking. Thus these guys would have to switch divisions again, while the season is lasting.
I am really curious how blizzard is going to fix this.
Why would they need to switch players between divisions if all divisions are equal? Rank 50 in one division is the same as rank 50 in another division of the same league, and vice versa.
Like Excalibur said, they most like just make every league work like master works now.
Right now, divisions are filled by activity. There is always 1 division created at a time, where everyone who does their placement match gets put into. This results in the early divisions are extremely stacked with good players (cause they often do their placements intant after ladder reset). it's common that the first divisions of the season contain more than 25 players with 1500+ rating, where the first one has near grandmaster rating.
whereas a master division created just by now, the first player will have 800 points, the 10th player maybe 200 points.
After blizzards post, it would mean that the 800point player is on the best 1% of the playerbase which he clearly is not. So they have to also create a new way to populate the divisions.
The system isn't perfect, and they said this was a change to lower leagues so I don't think they'll be able to change masters. You have a point, but they never mentioned masters in the blog post.
I used masters as an example because Blizzard are going to change every league to work like masters does work now. This will result in the other leagues behave excatly like masters behaves now. (Subsequent divisions will contain much lower rated players, who will be a lot higher ranked in their division than same-rated players in the older divisions) By rated i mean their ladder points
Division A was most likely established very early into the season, Division B quite a lot later. Now you can see that the first ranked player in B would be only be placed 12th in division A. B 2nd player would be 14th in A B 3rd player would be 17th in A and so on...
this pretty much fails hard at the statement "Place 1 roughly equals top 1% of playerbase" Though it could be right for the first player in division B, what about the players in divsion A, placed 2-12 ?? According to their rating and compared to the first player of division B, they would also be top 1% of the playerbase. According to blizzards statement though, they are only best 10% of the playerbase.
edit: even bigger is the difference between those divisions' top 50, which would equal to "being top 50% of the playerbase" Division A Top50 players include all until 1032 ponts. Division B Top50 players include all unitl 380 points.
So reading blizzard's statement, the player placed 50th in division B would think he is one of the 50% highest rated players in master league. (which he isn't, because the difference between different aged divisions is too big)
It wasn't mentioned in the OP or anywhere else in this thread yet, but they also are adding a new 3v3 map and doing some map shuffling with 3v3 and 4v4 maps:
We’re removing:
(3v3) Arakan Citadel
(3v3) Frontier
(4v4) Extinction
(4v4) Toxic Slums
We’re adding:
(3v3) Silent Dunes (new map)
(3v3) Monsoon
(4v4) High Ground
(4v4) Megaton
Finally a new 3v3 map, would have liked to see a new 4's map too though :/ Can't believe Lava Flow is still in the 4's map pool... and Monsoon was awful, why bring back
it literally means, rank 100 - 1 is the top %100 to %1 of your rank, bronze all the way to GM. If you are 100 bronze you are literally the worst player in the entire game, along with the other 100's that will exist. We will still have divisions and compete within our division, but it will make going up a rank, from 53 to 52, actually mean something, but it will probably take more work now. So those achievements you got for getting top 8 in your division? well that's going to be very hard to get now.
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote: so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid
If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.
On September 07 2012 10:10 emc wrote: personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.
well, it's not really that important since it's going to be very close to 50%. And they sort of have given it back already since you can see "games played this season" and how many you've won with the new ui.
On September 07 2012 18:05 Jenia6109 wrote: No changes in 1v1 maps
This makes me really sad. We got these maps for waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. We need something new and remove all the old stuff like Taldarim, Shakuras, Antiga, Entombed and finally get some new maps. It's quite annoying to play on the same maps for years now (Taldarim and Shakuras...). And there are so many good maps flying around. Abyssal City looks good and also I want at least one map of the ESV anniversary map pack. (At best the 3-player map to finally get something different into the map-pool) + Show Spoiler [ESV anniversary map pack] +
On September 07 2012 18:05 Jenia6109 wrote: No changes in 1v1 maps
This makes me really sad. We got these maps for waaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. We need something new and remove all the old stuff like Taldarim, Shakuras, Antiga, Entombed and finally get some new maps. It's quite annoying to play on the same maps for years now (Taldarim and Shakuras...). And there are so many good maps flying around. Abyssal City looks good and also I want at least one map of the ESV anniversary map pack. (At best the 3-player map to finally get something different into the map-pool) + Show Spoiler [ESV anniversary map pack] +
Division A was most likely established very early into the season, Division B quite a lot later. Now you can see that the first ranked player in B would be only be placed 12th in division A. B 2nd player would be 14th in A B 3rd player would be 17th in A and so on...
this pretty much fails hard at the statement "Place 1 roughly equals top 1% of playerbase" Though it could be right for the first player in division B, what about the players in divsion A, placed 2-12 ?? According to their rating and compared to the first player of division B, they would also be top 1% of the playerbase. According to blizzards statement though, they are only best 10% of the playerbase.
edit: even bigger is the difference between those divisions' top 50, which would equal to "being top 50% of the playerbase" Division A Top50 players include all until 1032 ponts. Division B Top50 players include all unitl 380 points.
So reading blizzard's statement, the player placed 50th in division B would think he is one of the 50% highest rated players in master league. (which he isn't, because the difference between different aged divisions is too big)
You are right, removing "ladder tier" won't fix anything. Blizzard needs to balance divisions or rework the way players enters in division after placement, but it's not the plan, right ? :/ When I first read, I thought they would change it, misplaced joy ?
Although it's a good change, your ranking is still inaccurate and I don't understand why they don't just show your mmr. If it somehow scares off casuals, just put it somewhere hard to find or requestable by a /rating ingame or whatever.
If i am the best player in my division, but i don't deserve to be top 1% of me league, what happens? Do they have to keep changing the players in my division, or changing the division where i stand ? That's kind of a mess though, no?
Well, they now change it when Hots (closed)beta is released. I mean changig the system after over 2years the way it should be designed right from the start is good, but pretty pretty darn late.
On September 07 2012 10:16 DGB.Zerok wrote: Can someone explain me a little better what is ladder tier? My english sucks
Ladder tier means theirs different tiers in each league/division so just because you are at rank 1 in diamond you could be at a low tier division in diamond meaning you probably won't be promoted just because of that. This change will make it easier to tell where you are in terms of skill and whether you will be promoted or not.
you don't explain a word by using the word in your explanation..
On September 07 2012 19:33 liquidoa wrote: Why not just have only 1 Division per League?
That way, each ranking would be unique and much more accurate.. Ok, the Division would be huge and some people would be like Rank 5000, but so what?
I think that would be much easier to understand..
Couldn't agree more on this, had exactly the same thought. But at the same time i'm pretty sure they don't do this because they don't wanna frustrate players who aren't that good. Pretty much the same reason why they removed displayed losses from all leagues but Masters and GM i guess...
On September 07 2012 19:50 Phanekim wrote: the question is...why was it ever there to begin with.
to make more ppl feel good that they are ranked high, even though compared to higher tiers of the same league they would be placed more towards the bottom.
On September 07 2012 10:16 DGB.Zerok wrote: Can someone explain me a little better what is ladder tier? My english sucks
Ladder tier means theirs different tiers in each league/division so just because you are at rank 1 in diamond you could be at a low tier division in diamond meaning you probably won't be promoted just because of that. This change will make it easier to tell where you are in terms of skill and whether you will be promoted or not.
you don't explain a word by using the word in your explanation..
On September 07 2012 19:50 Phanekim wrote: the question is...why was it ever there to begin with.
to make more ppl feel good that they are ranked high, even though compared to higher tiers of the same league they would be placed more towards the bottom.
So much this. It feels a bit like the "everyone get's a trophy" philosophy. This, coupled with not showing losses and such, forcing other alternatives for gathering useful data (SC2Ranks), feels a bit too much like Blizzard's handholding people in ladder. "It's okay, Johnny, look, you're #5!" I believe most of us would be content having the real information and don't need any sort of manipulation to make us "feel good" about statistics in a computer game.
I usually don't like one-line happy posts, but with the remote possibility that someone Blizzard will ever look at this thread, I think we should make a lot of them to show the love!
So, yes, this a great step in the right direction!
My bonus pool hasn't been being used since yesterday morning, just keeps raising...I assumed seasons were already locked but seems like mine was just bugged =/
On September 07 2012 19:33 liquidoa wrote: Why not just have only 1 Division per League?
That way, each ranking would be unique and much more accurate.. Ok, the Division would be huge and some people would be like Rank 5000, but so what?
I think that would be much easier to understand..
Agreed. The only drawback is the listing of players because it is huge, but I think a searchbox could fix that as well as paging. Even if I was ranked 5000 or something it would only make me want to ladder more to see that rank rise as the number would be more accurate and meaningful.
On September 07 2012 14:08 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Great news!I'm lovin it...now if they would just give our Win/Lose ratio back i'm a happy man.
Why you need it.. ? You cant make simple math .. ? From patch 1.5 you can see in profile " games played this season" , and in ladder window he see wins. Its very simple to plus/minus then , and you have your win ratio.
On September 07 2012 18:48 speknek wrote: Although it's a good change, your ranking is still inaccurate and I don't understand why they don't just show your mmr. If it somehow scares off casuals, just put it somewhere hard to find or requestable by a /rating ingame or whatever.
I really have no idea why they don't do this. Has Dustin Browder or anyone ever answered why?
On September 07 2012 14:08 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Great news!I'm lovin it...now if they would just give our Win/Lose ratio back i'm a happy man.
Why you need it.. ? You cant make simple math .. ? From patch 1.5 you can see in profile " games played this season" , and in ladder window he see wins. Its very simple to plus/minus then , and you have your win ratio.
Games played includes customs and XvX, rather than just 1v1, so there's no way to tell your w/l ratio.
On September 07 2012 14:08 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Great news!I'm lovin it...now if they would just give our Win/Lose ratio back i'm a happy man.
Why you need it.. ? You cant make simple math .. ? From patch 1.5 you can see in profile " games played this season" , and in ladder window he see wins. Its very simple to plus/minus then , and you have your win ratio.
Games played includes customs and XvX, rather than just 1v1, so there's no way to tell your w/l ratio.
No , "Games played this season" are only ladder games. Go play custom , and you gonna see that this game will be NOT added , to Games played this season
On September 07 2012 14:08 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Great news!I'm lovin it...now if they would just give our Win/Lose ratio back i'm a happy man.
Why you need it.. ? You cant make simple math .. ? From patch 1.5 you can see in profile " games played this season" , and in ladder window he see wins. Its very simple to plus/minus then , and you have your win ratio.
Games played includes customs and XvX, rather than just 1v1, so there's no way to tell your w/l ratio.
No , "Games played this season" are only ladder games. Go play custom , and you gonna see that this game will be NOT added , to Games played this season
2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 also have ladders.
Is the "games played this season" only for 1v1 though?
On September 07 2012 14:08 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Great news!I'm lovin it...now if they would just give our Win/Lose ratio back i'm a happy man.
Why you need it.. ? You cant make simple math .. ? From patch 1.5 you can see in profile " games played this season" , and in ladder window he see wins. Its very simple to plus/minus then , and you have your win ratio.
Games played includes customs and XvX, rather than just 1v1, so there's no way to tell your w/l ratio.
No , "Games played this season" are only ladder games. Go play custom , and you gonna see that this game will be NOT added , to Games played this season
2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 also have ladders.
Is the "games played this season" only for 1v1 though?
Ah.. i didnt think of that.., me for example only play 1vs1 so its easy to me see my win ratio. But yes ... games played this season are ALL ladder games , and you are right , sorry for that.
On September 07 2012 14:08 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Great news!I'm lovin it...now if they would just give our Win/Lose ratio back i'm a happy man.
Why you need it.. ? You cant make simple math .. ? From patch 1.5 you can see in profile " games played this season" , and in ladder window he see wins. Its very simple to plus/minus then , and you have your win ratio.
Games played includes customs and XvX, rather than just 1v1, so there's no way to tell your w/l ratio.
No , "Games played this season" are only ladder games. Go play custom , and you gonna see that this game will be NOT added , to Games played this season
2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 also have ladders.
Is the "games played this season" only for 1v1 though?
Ah.. i didnt think of that.., me for example only play 1vs1 so its easy to me see my win ratio. But yes ... games played this season are ALL ladder games , and you are right , sorry for that.
yeah i do too, and i think alot of people do so doesn't really matter if it includes team games or not if you don't play them. I wonder why win rates aren't shown for players below masters though. I mean, what's the reasoning behind it?
On September 07 2012 14:08 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Great news!I'm lovin it...now if they would just give our Win/Lose ratio back i'm a happy man.
Why you need it.. ? You cant make simple math .. ? From patch 1.5 you can see in profile " games played this season" , and in ladder window he see wins. Its very simple to plus/minus then , and you have your win ratio.
Games played includes customs and XvX, rather than just 1v1, so there's no way to tell your w/l ratio.
No , "Games played this season" are only ladder games. Go play custom , and you gonna see that this game will be NOT added , to Games played this season
2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 also have ladders.
Is the "games played this season" only for 1v1 though?
Ah.. i didnt think of that.., me for example only play 1vs1 so its easy to me see my win ratio. But yes ... games played this season are ALL ladder games , and you are right , sorry for that.
yeah i do too, and i think alot of people do so doesn't really matter if it includes team games or not if you don't play them. I wonder why win rates aren't shown for players below masters though. I mean, what's the reasoning behind it?
It was writen many times before , and i think its the reason . Blizzard wanna more players stick with game , so they dont show win ratio in worste leagues then masters , people rage less when they dont see , how much games they lose , yes its stupid for players , but make seanse for game company like blizzard.
On September 07 2012 21:06 Fjodorov wrote: Bah, must every map be easy to take third and hard core macro mode :S Diversity for the loss?
Its good for you .. belive me . Im a zerg player and there was a time when i make alot of chesses , 2-3 base all ins , and my skill was not better and better because of that. Then i start play "only" macro games and my skill go up really fast. You learn much faster if you play more macro games.
If you dont like macro games.. you can always make 2 base all in , if you see your opponent makes third base.
On September 07 2012 14:08 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Great news!I'm lovin it...now if they would just give our Win/Lose ratio back i'm a happy man.
Why you need it.. ? You cant make simple math .. ? From patch 1.5 you can see in profile " games played this season" , and in ladder window he see wins. Its very simple to plus/minus then , and you have your win ratio.
I like it! Now just do something about the bonus pool system and i'm satisfied! You should be able to look at ones league/rank to determinate skill level and this sure helps.
On September 07 2012 14:08 Zerg.Zilla wrote: Great news!I'm lovin it...now if they would just give our Win/Lose ratio back i'm a happy man.
Why you need it.. ? You cant make simple math .. ? From patch 1.5 you can see in profile " games played this season" , and in ladder window he see wins. Its very simple to plus/minus then , and you have your win ratio.
because everyone plays only 1on1 and nothing else
You are being clueless, he obviously means if you are strickly a 1v1 player, then you obviously can just do math to figure out your losses. :\
Bullshit, if they wanted to be transparent they would remove all the eye-candy that is league/rank. Just let me know my MMR, let me know my level, my global rank, whatever, anything but these silly leagues and divisions.
Just make the SC2 ladder like the WC3 ladder, simple and to the point, with profiles showing wins and losses for each race and win percentage as a total and for each race. Then maybe add map win percentages and frequency and other interesting data. Seriously, SC2 fails really hard in so many ways when it comes to online play.
I mean, theres no reason why games ten+ years older than SC2 should have much, MUCH better online experiences.
Nice, I love the changes. Though I feel I'll be going down from top 10 % of my division to top 50 % But we'll see. Finally some more accurate standings.
On September 07 2012 18:48 speknek wrote: Although it's a good change, your ranking is still inaccurate and I don't understand why they don't just show your mmr. If it somehow scares off casuals, just put it somewhere hard to find or requestable by a /rating ingame or whatever.
I really have no idea why they don't do this. Has Dustin Browder or anyone ever answered why?
Yes, they have, several times. It's because your MMR is relatively stable, and they argue that (1) casuals would get their feelings hurt by seeing a quantifiable declaration of how bad they are, and (2) seeing a stable value doesn't motivate casuals to play more, acquiring more meaningless points just for playing does. Big numbers and shiny badges and sparkles hooray!
shakuras and condemned ridge must be removed to due obvious imbalance. All 4 player maps should be made either vertical spawns only or cross spawns only. Antiga in particular should be cross and talda, entom could be vertical. Neutral depoes pls, these are the minimum. I do not want to waste time on ladder thnx!
Tiers are probably being removed because there are fewer players playing overall now and they are no longer needed. It is a good change though. Gives a better indication of how you're doing in your division.
I love that they are switching up some fo the 3v3/4v4 maps as that's where I spend most of my play time.
On September 07 2012 15:55 Excalibur_Z wrote: Added an explanation to the OP since it seems people aren't really sure what this is going to mean. It's sort of sad that a significant amount of research is basically going to waste, but this is for the best. One effect of this change is that promotions will probably come more quickly because it's not going to hold your promotion in the event that you're bouncing between Tier 1 and Tier 2, there is only one tier now so promotions should come about as quickly as they do going from (high-tier) Diamond into Master.
Well, that research was still able to be useful for a year (very roughly), so it's not tooo wasted I would say!
On September 07 2012 18:48 speknek wrote: Although it's a good change, your ranking is still inaccurate and I don't understand why they don't just show your mmr. If it somehow scares off casuals, just put it somewhere hard to find or requestable by a /rating ingame or whatever.
I really have no idea why they don't do this. Has Dustin Browder or anyone ever answered why?
Yes, they have, several times. It's because your MMR is relatively stable, and they argue that (1) casuals would get their feelings hurt by seeing a quantifiable declaration of how bad they are, and (2) seeing a stable value doesn't motivate casuals to play more, acquiring more meaningless points just for playing does. Big numbers and shiny badges and sparkles hooray!
No I mean that's an explanation for why it's not obvious. But how about if you had to go out and ask for it or something like that? (edit: also I hate that they argue your mmr is relatively stable.. so what? I'd rather see if it's stable or if I'm improving, I've gradually worked my way from bronze to high diamond although it's probably high in a low tier, I hate that I have no idea from now for a while if I'm actually improving or staying at the same place, luckily getting rid of the tiers will at least help a little)
On September 07 2012 22:03 Starshaped wrote: Bullshit, if they wanted to be transparent they would remove all the eye-candy that is league/rank. Just let me know my MMR, let me know my level, my global rank, whatever, anything but these silly leagues and divisions.
Just make the SC2 ladder like the WC3 ladder, simple and to the point, with profiles showing wins and losses for each race and win percentage as a total and for each race. Then maybe add map win percentages and frequency and other interesting data. Seriously, SC2 fails really hard in so many ways when it comes to online play.
I mean, theres no reason why games ten+ years older than SC2 should have much, MUCH better online experiences.
I played chess online 1994 almost 20 years ago. They had a ladder where you could see your exact rating among all players in the world. They also had a separate rating for games <3 minutes , games between 3 and <15 min, for 15+ games & a separate rating for each chess variant like bughouse, suicide etc. Which would equate to a rating per race per XvX. Oh no a few bytes more per player to store on server oh the horrors... Maybe it cuts into the smurf account business?!? Some players have like 7 accounts.
I cannot understand how they think. If you can see your rating increase with every little improvement you make. People would play much much more I think. They could still keep the metals and stuff just make master league X thousand best , diamond Y thousand best etc.
I never expected that this would ever happen. Finally, points are comparable for the bottom 98% of players. Finally, we can get an accurate global ladder using sc2ranks. This is the best change that Blizzard has made to the ladder system, ever since they started hiding virtually every statistic.
At least for now... ranks are back!
However, what I found very puzzling is this statement
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
Either this is a miscommunication, or Blizzard is completely clueless on how their own ladder works. If you're rank 2, it does not mean that you're in the top 2% of the league. The skill of your division can be higher or lower than the average, based on who the RNG assigned to your division. Skill can also change over time, so that some divisions are more skilled than others. The correct statement would say: "at the start of the season, on average, players who are rank 2 are in the top 2% of the league.."
I wonder what they will do with the waves of player moving from one division to another. Before, they will open new masters divisions to accommodate all the players moving up from diamond. This gave rise to some divisions being really low tier. If they don't want to have low tier divisions, they must find a new way of accommodating the players moving up divisions.
On September 07 2012 22:03 Starshaped wrote: Bullshit, if they wanted to be transparent they would remove all the eye-candy that is league/rank. Just let me know my MMR, let me know my level, my global rank, whatever, anything but these silly leagues and divisions.
Just make the SC2 ladder like the WC3 ladder, simple and to the point, with profiles showing wins and losses for each race and win percentage as a total and for each race. Then maybe add map win percentages and frequency and other interesting data. Seriously, SC2 fails really hard in so many ways when it comes to online play.
I mean, theres no reason why games ten+ years older than SC2 should have much, MUCH better online experiences.
Absolutely agreed.
The SC2 ladder system is a convoluted system that currently hides everything that is related to accurately ranking players. It's impossible to compare ranks of 98% of players, there's no win-loss ratio breakdowns, no stats. It treats us like babies, too afraid to see our true ranks for fear it would hurt our feelings and give us ladder anxiety.
Ultimately, the current ladder is absolutely pointless, if you can't compare your skill with others in a competitive game, then there is no point in playing a competitive game. That's why I quit SC2 a long time ago. It was pointless, because the ranking system makes it impossible to actually rank players.
For 2 years, Blizzard has removed and hid more and more stats, even as recently as 1.5. So this is a significant and positive move in the opposite direction, at least points will be comparable across divisions, making a global ladder possible through sites like sc2ranks.
The system is still garbage, designed to coddled those who are too fragile to learn of their true rank and have their gameplay stats shown.
Excal_Z edit: This ladder change is going to mean that all of the leagues will now become just like Master league (except for showing losses). There will still be divisions of 100 players each, but they'll all be equal and therefore no longer apply hidden offsets. Therefore, in an ideal environment with the skill of all players evenly distributed across divisions (meaning you don't have Division 1 with all GSL Code S players and Division 2 with all GSL Code B players) and as long as everyone is spending all their bonus pool, what Blizzard says is accurate: rank 1 would roughly equate to the top 1% of the league.
Incidentally, this is going to make sites like SC2Ranks far more accurate as a means to gauge how you rank among the rest of your league.
Note that promotions will still be determined by MMR, the removal of division tiers only affects the points that are displayed in divisional rankings.
Except it's virtually impossible to get a uniform distribution of skill in all divisions by grouping players into skill quintiles and randomly throwing them into divisions.
So what Blizzard says is false. It is only true on average, and only true at the beginning of the season because skill can change over time, whereas divisions don't, unless there's a reset.
You can also remove the assumption that players use up their bonus pool. Top 1% of the league, doesn't mean top 1% of skill in the league, it means top 1% of points, which is a hybrid skill+activity measure.
I'm still seeing several people complain about no win/loss info. Has no one noticed that it returned with 1.5??
Not sure how it works for people who play 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 but, I only play 1v1 and it tells me on my Profile page how many games I've played this season and in the Leagues & Ladder page how many wins I have. A little math and I have my win/loss info. The downside is they took away how many career wins we have.
I guess it's just not obvious enough and it was never announced, which they probably did on purpose. It's kind of funny though because so many people complained about it being taken away and then didn't even realize it came back, albeit in a round about way.
On September 08 2012 00:24 WarEagle wrote: I'm still seeing several people complain about no win/loss info. Has no one noticed that it returned with 1.5??
Not sure how it works for people who play 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 but, I only play 1v1 and it tells me in game how many games I've played this season and how many wins I have (Silver btw). A little math and I have my win/loss %
I guess it's just not obvious enough and it was never announced, which they probably did on purpose.
Win ratio is pointless.
It's a reflection of how well the matchmaker is, it's not a reflection of your skill. It provides no information about skill, unless you're at the top or bottom where the matchmaker can't always find an equal skilled opponent because the search times would be too long.
So working out your win ratio is worthless and pointless. Now, what isn't pointless is win ratio broken down by race, or by map or by game time, or by race by map by game time. The matchmaker makes everyone's win ratio (except at the top and bottom, because of search times) approximately 50%, but that doesn't stop the fact that you may have a 70% win ratio against T, 50% against Z, and 30% against P. And this is very valuable information.
The reason why the removal of the win ratio was a terribly bad move was not because it's useful, but because it meant that Blizzard will never release these very useful win ratios broken down by these categories, because it would be possible to reconstruct the overall win ratio with it. And that would hurt the fragile feelings of players with ladder anxiety, which is clearly the real reason why win ratios were removed.
Another thing worth pointing out with this change is that MMR can be worked out and compared by simply subtracting bonus pool from points, as long as you've played several games in the season.
On September 08 2012 00:35 paralleluniverse wrote:
The reason why the removal of the win ratio was a terribly bad move was not because it's useful, but because it meant that Blizzard will never release these very useful win ratios broken down by these categories, because it would be possible to reconstruct the overall win ratio with it. And that would hurt the fragile feelings of players with ladder anxiety, which is clearly the real reason why win ratios were removed.
Browder has said in interviews (regarding HotS) this year that he would like more stats in the game, so I assume they will add that in.....sometime (LotV maybe?).
I honestly feel like Blizz has been gradually getting better about listening to the players and giving them what they want; this new ladder season info makes a great point of that. If they want to compete in this market, which has changed dramatically since the BW days (and since the release of WoL, too), they will have to continue making changes like this.
If i'm in Division 1 for say, and i'm rank 1 at 900 points doesn't mean i'm top 1%? There could be another division where the top 8 begins with 900 points at least?
Why not put everyone in 1 division? like a couple a thousand players in 1?
Excal_Z edit: This ladder change is going to mean that all of the leagues will now become just like Master league (except for showing losses). There will still be divisions of 100 players each, but they'll all be equal and therefore no longer apply hidden offsets. Therefore, in an ideal environment with the skill of all players evenly distributed across divisions (meaning you don't have Division 1 with all GSL Code S players and Division 2 with all GSL Code B players) and as long as everyone is spending all their bonus pool, what Blizzard says is accurate: rank 1 would roughly equate to the top 1% of the league.
Incidentally, this is going to make sites like SC2Ranks far more accurate as a means to gauge how you rank among the rest of your league.
Note that promotions will still be determined by MMR, the removal of division tiers only affects the points that are displayed in divisional rankings.
Except it's virtually impossible to get a uniform distribution of skill in all divisions by grouping players into skill quintiles and randomly throwing them into divisions.
So what Blizzard says is false. It is only true on average, and only true at the beginning of the season because skill can change over time, whereas divisions don't, unless there's a reset.
You can also remove the assumption that players use up their bonus pool. Top 1% of the league, doesn't mean top 1% of skill in the league, it means top 1% of points, which is a hybrid skill+activity measure.
You're correct, but I think that will impact the lower leagues less than it does Master. In Master league, the skill gap of players can be very large because Master divisions will include Grandmaster players for the first week. In Gold, it's a lot smaller. Anyone who's outperforming would have been placed in Platinum instead. I suppose we'll have to see how it works out, but I don't know if we'll get the "divisions of death" for which Master is known in the other leagues.
On September 07 2012 22:03 Starshaped wrote: Bullshit, if they wanted to be transparent they would remove all the eye-candy that is league/rank. Just let me know my MMR, let me know my level, my global rank, whatever, anything but these silly leagues and divisions.
Just make the SC2 ladder like the WC3 ladder, simple and to the point, with profiles showing wins and losses for each race and win percentage as a total and for each race. Then maybe add map win percentages and frequency and other interesting data. Seriously, SC2 fails really hard in so many ways when it comes to online play.
I mean, theres no reason why games ten+ years older than SC2 should have much, MUCH better online experiences.
Absolutely agreed.
The SC2 ladder system is a convoluted system that currently hides everything that is related to accurately ranking players. It's impossible to compare ranks of 98% of players, there's no win-loss ratio breakdowns, no stats. It treats us like babies, too afraid to see our true ranks for fear it would hurt our feelings and give us ladder anxiety.
Ultimately, the current ladder is absolutely pointless, if you can't compare your skill with others in a competitive game, then there is no point in playing a competitive game. That's why I quit SC2 a long time ago. It was pointless, because the ranking system makes to impossible actually rank players.
For 2 years, Blizzard has removed and hid more and more stats, even as recently as 1.5. So this is a significant and positive move in the opposite direction, at least points will be comparable across divisions, making a global ladder possible through sites like sc2ranks.
The system is still garbage, designed to coddled those who are too fragile to learn of their true rank and have their gameplay stats shown.
Very good posts. I agree with both of you.
A truly competitive ladder can only be achieved by absolutely transparent ranking. Do it ELO style, Blizzard!
And fuck "ladder anxiety". That is way too overrated.
On September 08 2012 00:35 paralleluniverse wrote:
The reason why the removal of the win ratio was a terribly bad move was not because it's useful, but because it meant that Blizzard will never release these very useful win ratios broken down by these categories, because it would be possible to reconstruct the overall win ratio with it. And that would hurt the fragile feelings of players with ladder anxiety, which is clearly the real reason why win ratios were removed.
Browder has said in interviews (regarding HotS) this year that he would like more stats in the game, so I assume they will add that in.....sometime (LotV maybe?).
I honestly feel like Blizz has been gradually getting better about listening to the players and giving them what they want; this new ladder season info makes a great point of that. If they want to compete in this market, which has changed dramatically since the BW days (and since the release of WoL, too), they will have to continue making changes like this.
On September 08 2012 00:20 paralleluniverse wrote:
Excal_Z edit: This ladder change is going to mean that all of the leagues will now become just like Master league (except for showing losses). There will still be divisions of 100 players each, but they'll all be equal and therefore no longer apply hidden offsets. Therefore, in an ideal environment with the skill of all players evenly distributed across divisions (meaning you don't have Division 1 with all GSL Code S players and Division 2 with all GSL Code B players) and as long as everyone is spending all their bonus pool, what Blizzard says is accurate: rank 1 would roughly equate to the top 1% of the league.
Incidentally, this is going to make sites like SC2Ranks far more accurate as a means to gauge how you rank among the rest of your league.
Note that promotions will still be determined by MMR, the removal of division tiers only affects the points that are displayed in divisional rankings.
Except it's virtually impossible to get a uniform distribution of skill in all divisions by grouping players into skill quintiles and randomly throwing them into divisions.
So what Blizzard says is false. It is only true on average, and only true at the beginning of the season because skill can change over time, whereas divisions don't, unless there's a reset.
You can also remove the assumption that players use up their bonus pool. Top 1% of the league, doesn't mean top 1% of skill in the league, it means top 1% of points, which is a hybrid skill+activity measure.
You're correct, but I think that will impact the lower leagues less than it does Master. In Master league, the skill gap of players can be very large because Master divisions will include Grandmaster players for the first week. In Gold, it's a lot smaller. Anyone who's outperforming would have been placed in Platinum instead. I suppose we'll have to see how it works out, but I don't know if we'll get the "divisions of death" for which Master is known in the other leagues.
I was saying that Blizzard's statement wasn't strictly correct, but that doesn't matter. Smart people will just ignore divisions and use sc2ranks or points - bonus pool (as long as bonus pool isn't too large). It doesn't matter how skewed divisions are, because we should make people understand, that with this change, divisions can be completely disregarded.
The game would be better if the community pretended that divisions don't exist. And now they can.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
This is the way it should've worked from the beginning. I'm happy we're getting it.
I like the TA changes (because I am Zerg ), but no new 1v1 maps? Really?
probably not on their to do list with HotS and all.. Also, I bet this GM will be easier to get into since I know most pros will be only playing HotS to prepare themselves.
Its not even hard
you literally swap 5 maps with 5 gsl maps and you have a revitalised map pool season for 3 months
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
This is the way it should've worked from the beginning. I'm happy we're getting it.
I like the TA changes (because I am Zerg ), but no new 1v1 maps? Really?
probably not on their to do list with HotS and all.. Also, I bet this GM will be easier to get into since I know most pros will be only playing HotS to prepare themselves.
Its not even hard
you literally swap 5 maps with 5 gsl maps and you have a revitalised map pool season for 3 months
Thats the easiest and best solution but were talking about Blizzard here. Lol
On September 08 2012 00:35 paralleluniverse wrote:
The reason why the removal of the win ratio was a terribly bad move was not because it's useful, but because it meant that Blizzard will never release these very useful win ratios broken down by these categories, because it would be possible to reconstruct the overall win ratio with it. And that would hurt the fragile feelings of players with ladder anxiety, which is clearly the real reason why win ratios were removed.
Browder has said in interviews (regarding HotS) this year that he would like more stats in the game, so I assume they will add that in.....sometime (LotV maybe?).
I honestly feel like Blizz has been gradually getting better about listening to the players and giving them what they want; this new ladder season info makes a great point of that. If they want to compete in this market, which has changed dramatically since the BW days (and since the release of WoL, too), they will have to continue making changes like this.
Did Browder really say that? When was this?
Don't remember exactly, I think it was from MLG when they had an alpha build for people to play against AI. I thought it was a TL interview, not sure though.
But I remember him saying, 'as a random player, I would love to have individual match up stats...'
On September 08 2012 00:24 WarEagle wrote: I'm still seeing several people complain about no win/loss info. Has no one noticed that it returned with 1.5??
Not sure how it works for people who play 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 but, I only play 1v1 and it tells me in game how many games I've played this season and how many wins I have (Silver btw). A little math and I have my win/loss %
I guess it's just not obvious enough and it was never announced, which they probably did on purpose.
Win ratio is pointless.
It's a reflection of how well the matchmaker is, it's not a reflection of your skill. It provides no information about skill, unless you're at the top or bottom where the matchmaker can't always find an equal skilled opponent because the search times would be too long.
So working out your win ratio is worthless and pointless. Now, what isn't pointless is win ratio broken down by race, or by map or by game time, or by race by map by game time. The matchmaker makes everyone's win ratio (except at the top and bottom, because of search times) approximately 50%, but that doesn't stop the fact that you may have a 70% win ratio again T, 50% against Z, and 30% against P. And this is very valuable information.
The reason why the removal of the win ratio was a terribly bad move was not because it's useful, but because it meant that Blizzard will never release these very useful win ratios broken down by these categories, because it would be possible to reconstruct the overall win ratio with it. And that would hurt the fragile feelings of players with ladder anxiety, which is clearly the real reason why win ratios were removed.
I would love to be able to see my win ratio by race. I played wc3 a long time ago and iirc the ladder would give you that information, along with your over all win stats. It woud be very helpful. I cant think of a reason why this isnt already in the game.
On September 07 2012 18:48 speknek wrote: Although it's a good change, your ranking is still inaccurate and I don't understand why they don't just show your mmr. If it somehow scares off casuals, just put it somewhere hard to find or requestable by a /rating ingame or whatever.
I really have no idea why they don't do this. Has Dustin Browder or anyone ever answered why?
Yes, they have, several times. It's because your MMR is relatively stable, and they argue that (1) casuals would get their feelings hurt by seeing a quantifiable declaration of how bad they are, and (2) seeing a stable value doesn't motivate casuals to play more, acquiring more meaningless points just for playing does. Big numbers and shiny badges and sparkles hooray!
Like I said.. just make it an extra option or hard to find, so casuals won't get butthurt and the rest can see their rating if they wish too.
On September 08 2012 00:35 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 08 2012 00:24 WarEagle wrote: I'm still seeing several people complain about no win/loss info. Has no one noticed that it returned with 1.5??
Not sure how it works for people who play 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 but, I only play 1v1 and it tells me in game how many games I've played this season and how many wins I have (Silver btw). A little math and I have my win/loss %
I guess it's just not obvious enough and it was never announced, which they probably did on purpose.
Win ratio is pointless.
It's a reflection of how well the matchmaker is, it's not a reflection of your skill. It provides no information about skill, unless you're at the top or bottom where the matchmaker can't always find an equal skilled opponent because the search times would be too long.
So working out your win ratio is worthless and pointless. Now, what isn't pointless is win ratio broken down by race, or by map or by game time, or by race by map by game time. The matchmaker makes everyone's win ratio (except at the top and bottom, because of search times) approximately 50%, but that doesn't stop the fact that you may have a 70% win ratio again T, 50% against Z, and 30% against P. And this is very valuable information.
The reason why the removal of the win ratio was a terribly bad move was not because it's useful, but because it meant that Blizzard will never release these very useful win ratios broken down by these categories, because it would be possible to reconstruct the overall win ratio with it. And that would hurt the fragile feelings of players with ladder anxiety, which is clearly the real reason why win ratios were removed.
I would love to be able to see my win ratio by race. I played wc3 a long time ago and iirc the ladder would give you that information, along with your over all win stats. It woud be very helpful. I cant think of a reason why this isnt already in the game.
The technology just isn't there yet bro...
No but seriously it should be in there, in the meantime you can use SC2 gears to see your win rates and other stats. I do wish it was in the main client like it was in WC3 though. I played random then and those stats were SOOOOO helpful in figuring out what I needed to work on.
On September 08 2012 00:10 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 07 2012 22:03 Starshaped wrote: Bullshit, if they wanted to be transparent they would remove all the eye-candy that is league/rank. Just let me know my MMR, let me know my level, my global rank, whatever, anything but these silly leagues and divisions.
Just make the SC2 ladder like the WC3 ladder, simple and to the point, with profiles showing wins and losses for each race and win percentage as a total and for each race. Then maybe add map win percentages and frequency and other interesting data. Seriously, SC2 fails really hard in so many ways when it comes to online play.
I mean, theres no reason why games ten+ years older than SC2 should have much, MUCH better online experiences.
Absolutely agreed.
The SC2 ladder system is a convoluted system that currently hides everything that is related to accurately ranking players. It's impossible to compare ranks of 98% of players, there's no win-loss ratio breakdowns, no stats. It treats us like babies, too afraid to see our true ranks for fear it would hurt our feelings and give us ladder anxiety.
Ultimately, the current ladder is absolutely pointless, if you can't compare your skill with others in a competitive game, then there is no point in playing a competitive game. That's why I quit SC2 a long time ago. It was pointless, because the ranking system makes to impossible actually rank players.
For 2 years, Blizzard has removed and hid more and more stats, even as recently as 1.5. So this is a significant and positive move in the opposite direction, at least points will be comparable across divisions, making a global ladder possible through sites like sc2ranks.
The system is still garbage, designed to coddled those who are too fragile to learn of their true rank and have their gameplay stats shown.
Very good posts. I agree with both of you.
A truly competitive ladder can only be achieved by absolutely transparent ranking. Do it ELO style, Blizzard!
And fuck "ladder anxiety". That is way too overrated.
I guess optimally it would say something like "Your rank is 346 395th out of 573 309 players" or something like that. I guess that absolute value would have some signifigance for some people.
Blizzard is a fucking joke. Why wasn't this simply implemented at the start of the game? It makes no sense to have hidden rankings among same divisions (not MMR). This just leaves the player clueless as to when he will get promoted or not. For fucks sake, it takes you two years to realize that your ladder system is confusing? Blizzard.......
On September 08 2012 02:36 Bareleon wrote: So we pretty much will see no difference to our ladder when we view it in-game?
There will be no difference to the display of the ladder in game no, you can just assume it's a more accurate representation of your skill relative to your league. It won't be perfect because it randomly assigns players to leagues, but it'll be better.
On September 08 2012 00:10 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 07 2012 22:03 Starshaped wrote: Bullshit, if they wanted to be transparent they would remove all the eye-candy that is league/rank. Just let me know my MMR, let me know my level, my global rank, whatever, anything but these silly leagues and divisions.
Just make the SC2 ladder like the WC3 ladder, simple and to the point, with profiles showing wins and losses for each race and win percentage as a total and for each race. Then maybe add map win percentages and frequency and other interesting data. Seriously, SC2 fails really hard in so many ways when it comes to online play.
I mean, theres no reason why games ten+ years older than SC2 should have much, MUCH better online experiences.
Absolutely agreed.
The SC2 ladder system is a convoluted system that currently hides everything that is related to accurately ranking players. It's impossible to compare ranks of 98% of players, there's no win-loss ratio breakdowns, no stats. It treats us like babies, too afraid to see our true ranks for fear it would hurt our feelings and give us ladder anxiety.
Ultimately, the current ladder is absolutely pointless, if you can't compare your skill with others in a competitive game, then there is no point in playing a competitive game. That's why I quit SC2 a long time ago. It was pointless, because the ranking system makes to impossible actually rank players.
For 2 years, Blizzard has removed and hid more and more stats, even as recently as 1.5. So this is a significant and positive move in the opposite direction, at least points will be comparable across divisions, making a global ladder possible through sites like sc2ranks.
The system is still garbage, designed to coddled those who are too fragile to learn of their true rank and have their gameplay stats shown.
Very good posts. I agree with both of you.
A truly competitive ladder can only be achieved by absolutely transparent ranking. Do it ELO style, Blizzard!
And fuck "ladder anxiety". That is way too overrated.
I guess optimally it would say something like "Your rank is 346 395th out of 573 309 players" or something like that. I guess that absolute value would have some signifigance for some people.
Yeah and they can do it by geography as well "#33542 in NA, #25003 in USA" or some stuff like that, which can encourage short term goals like getting to top 10% of your local region or whatever.
really wc3 ladder page would have been just perfect, it makes sc2 stats look like a joke. go search a random wc3 profile and find out for yourself of what they are capable of but refuses to use.
anyway is it normal for bonus pool points to not work properly during locked session? I am receiving anywhere from 0 to 5 points instead of full points gained.
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote: so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid
If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.
isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on
This is exactly the kind of changes I like to see: cuts down on pointless effort by the player that won't effect the gameplay, and makes progress in the ranking system much more transparent.
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote: so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid
If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.
isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on
personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.
Didn't you know? Only master level players can handle that kind of information xD. Seriously though these all sound like good changes. I'll have to seriously consider actually unvetoing tal'darim altar. Also glad that it looks like they gave up on Metropolis for ladder, can't stand that map.
Not true.. , if you can count , you can do basic math from patch 1.5 . Im diamond and i can see "games played this seson" in profile , when i watch ladder i see wins , plus/minus and i got my win ratio , simple as that
First of all games played this season includes all game types as far as i know, not only team games but also custom, the latter being a recent addition, second why would they force people to do calculations to figure out their win loss ratio its not very as they say transparent, personally i like seeing all stats not less. It would be amazing if it went back to the super old style of showing win/loss info as well as vs race and map specific stats, but i guess thats too much to ask. As to the tier situation I dont see how this is really going to be accurate if the devesions are still just a section of 100 people it still comes down to luck and when you actually qualify for said devision, for example people who play their placement match on the first day of the new season will be placed amoung others who do the same so wouldnt that still mean that there are tiers of a sort, i say do away with the whole rank out of 100 system and go with a global elo with your rank being an actual percentile, however for some reason people or blizzrd doesnt seem to want this...
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote: so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid
If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.
isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on
You cannot make that conclusion.
It is only true on average.
Doesn't it mean you are the top ranked out of a randomly selected group (in your league) instead of out of a group subtly biased to contain players of a certain skill level?
On September 08 2012 03:03 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 08 2012 02:58 jinorazi wrote:
On September 07 2012 18:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote: so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid
If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.
isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on
You cannot make that conclusion.
It is only true on average.
Doesn't it mean you are the top ranked out of a randomly selected group (in your league) instead of out of a group subtly biased to contain players of a certain skill level?
Yes. But if there are 1000 random groups, several of them are randomly going to have higher skill than the rest. The distribution of the average skill of a group will be normally (not uniformly) distributed according to the central limit theorem, so some groups will be better than other simply because of random chance.
Being in the top 2% of a randomly selected group doesn't mean that you're in the top 2% of the league. It means on average you are in the top 2% of the league.
I wonder what Pardo, Browder and co. were thinking when they back-flipped to make this change. "But, but, it's so fun climbing the division ladder, seeing your points increase relative to a group of 100 players of almost equal skill". Right? "That's why we added the division tiers in the first place" -- the fact that these 100 arbitrary, faceless men were of very roughly equal skill meant that you got a chance to see your meaningless division rank climb (and fall).
What happened to this design philosophy? Did they realize that seeing your pointless division rank change wasn't so novel after all? Or do they still believe in this pointless ladder system, and only decided on this change after concluding that increasing the skill range of a division from 3.3% to 20% (6 division tiers currently?) won't be bad enough to diminish the FUN in climbing the division ladder? Or was it really because all of the sudden, after more than 2 years, they're concerned that promotions aren't transparent enough, as they admit. Really, what's changed their minds?
On September 08 2012 03:03 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 08 2012 02:58 jinorazi wrote:
On September 07 2012 18:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote: so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid
If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.
isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on
You cannot make that conclusion.
It is only true on average.
Doesn't it mean you are the top ranked out of a randomly selected group (in your league) instead of out of a group subtly biased to contain players of a certain skill level?
Yes. But if there are 1000 random groups, several of them are randomly going to have higher skill than the rest. The distribution of the average skill of a group will be normally (not uniformly) distributed according to the central limit theorem, so some groups will be better than other simply because of random chance.
Being in the top 2% of a randomly selected group doesn't mean that you're in the top 2% of the league. It means on average you are in the top 2% of the league.
i think thats a given, i wasnt literally saying 2%, i was actually going to edit it with ~2% and so on but i got lazy. it certainly holds more value than what it is now.
Division A was most likely established very early into the season, Division B quite a lot later. Now you can see that the first ranked player in B would be only be placed 12th in division A. B 2nd player would be 14th in A B 3rd player would be 17th in A and so on...
this pretty much fails hard at the statement "Place 1 roughly equals top 1% of playerbase" Though it could be right for the first player in division B, what about the players in divsion A, placed 2-12 ?? According to their rating and compared to the first player of division B, they would also be top 1% of the playerbase. According to blizzards statement though, they are only best 10% of the playerbase.
edit: even bigger is the difference between those divisions' top 50, which would equal to "being top 50% of the playerbase" Division A Top50 players include all until 1032 ponts. Division B Top50 players include all unitl 380 points.
So reading blizzard's statement, the player placed 50th in division B would think he is one of the 50% highest rated players in master league. (which he isn't, because the difference between different aged divisions is too big)
Very good post. I do hope they will do something about this, but I doubt it will happend. As it is now, rank in Masters means nothing.
This TDA change is dumb imo, before people said it was protoss favored in PvZ (well the winrates of both were still close), now it's just heavily Z favored :/
Division A was most likely established very early into the season, Division B quite a lot later. Now you can see that the first ranked player in B would be only be placed 12th in division A. B 2nd player would be 14th in A B 3rd player would be 17th in A and so on...
this pretty much fails hard at the statement "Place 1 roughly equals top 1% of playerbase" Though it could be right for the first player in division B, what about the players in divsion A, placed 2-12 ?? According to their rating and compared to the first player of division B, they would also be top 1% of the playerbase. According to blizzards statement though, they are only best 10% of the playerbase.
edit: even bigger is the difference between those divisions' top 50, which would equal to "being top 50% of the playerbase" Division A Top50 players include all until 1032 ponts. Division B Top50 players include all unitl 380 points.
So reading blizzard's statement, the player placed 50th in division B would think he is one of the 50% highest rated players in master league. (which he isn't, because the difference between different aged divisions is too big)
Ahh yes, how could we forget this.
Divisions that are created earlier tend to have a lot better players than divisions created later, because good players are more likely to start playing at the beginning of the season.
This was seen throughout beta where divisions were numbered 1, 2, 3, etc, and the first few divisions that were filled before the later ones had all the best players.
The only way I could see this new ladder rank change working is if players can freely change divisions to try and keep the rankings as accurate as possible. If they're locked in it is going to be weird still.
On September 08 2012 04:16 stevarius wrote: The only way I could see this new ladder rank change working is if players can freely change divisions to try and keep the rankings as accurate as possible. If they're locked in it is going to be weird still.
With no division tiers, you can compare points directly.
Completely ignore divisions. Pretend that they do not exist.
On September 08 2012 03:28 paralleluniverse wrote: I wonder what Pardo, Browder and co. were thinking when they back-flipped to make this change. "But, but, it's so fun climbing the division ladder, seeing your points increase relative to a group of 100 players of almost equal skill". Right? "That's why we added the division tiers in the first place" -- the fact that these 100 arbitrary, faceless men were of very roughly equal skill meant that you got a chance to see your meaningless division rank climb (and fall).
What happened to this design philosophy? Did they realize that seeing your pointless division rank change wasn't so novel after all? Or do they still believe in this pointless ladder system, and only decided on this change after concluding that increasing the skill range of a division from 3.3% to 20% (6 division tiers currently?) won't be bad enough to diminish the FUN in climbing the division ladder? Or was it really because all of the sudden, after more than 2 years, they're concerned that promotions aren't transparent enough, as they admit. Really, what's changed their minds?
On September 07 2012 10:10 emc wrote: personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.
I hope not, Wins/loss ratio are bad, i dont wanna see how terrible i am in SC2, plus its good that we dont see the ladder position too in the main page of our profiles. Less info stats = better for our minds.
I gladly invite this sort of move by Blizzard. How long have we not waited to see the ladder changed to meet the expectations of those who take laddering very seriously? I do not necessarily take it very seriously, but the changes are nonetheless welcome. Now we can finally see how we really stack up against the rest of the region's players, making it easier to compare the skill level between different players.
On September 07 2012 10:10 emc wrote: personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.
I hope not, Wins/loss ratio are bad, i dont wanna see how terrible i am in SC2, plus its good that we dont see the ladder position too in the main page of our profiles. Less info stats = better for our minds.
So people like you DO exist!.....=(
That`s too bad I really don`t see the big deal with people seeing their own stats. Do ugly people ignore the mirror too?
On September 08 2012 03:03 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 08 2012 02:58 jinorazi wrote:
On September 07 2012 18:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote: so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid
If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.
isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on
You cannot make that conclusion.
It is only true on average.
Doesn't it mean you are the top ranked out of a randomly selected group (in your league) instead of out of a group subtly biased to contain players of a certain skill level?
Yes. But if there are 1000 random groups, several of them are randomly going to have higher skill than the rest. The distribution of the average skill of a group will be normally (not uniformly) distributed according to the central limit theorem, so some groups will be better than other simply because of random chance.
Being in the top 2% of a randomly selected group doesn't mean that you're in the top 2% of the league. It means on average you are in the top 2% of the league.
But, if it works like Master League, it isn't simply a case of taking X players and dividing them randomly between divisions. As new people are promoted new divisions are created, and these divisions will usually have significantly worse players in them because they're all freshly promoted.
Thus in Masters you get a large variety of strong divisions and weak divisions with no real 'average' to speak of that would allow a rank comparison between them. That is to say, with the way Master League works now, the statement "I'm top 8 Masters" (in terms of demonstrating skill) is completely irrelevant.
Note that in the first division you need 1077 points to be top 8. That would mean you are ranked 3,300th in Master League as a whole. Pretty low. Thus in the second division, which is stronger, instead of being ranked 8th you would be ranked 47th. So are you in the top 8% of Masters players, or the top 47%? It's quite a significant difference.
How many times have they removed and added rocks to the third, but i like that blizzard actually took a measure that the community supports. It always seems like their intentions are good but they never seem like the right decisions ie removing the win/lose
So now Top 8 Masters will literally mean high masters. Cool Edit: Tal'darim has been vetoed since it's been in map pool for like 80% of everybody. maps should have a life of 2-3 seasons at most.
On September 08 2012 08:45 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: So now Top 8 Masters will literally mean high masters. Cool Edit: Tal'darim has been vetoed since it's been in map pool for like 80% of everybody. maps should have a life of 2-3 seasons at most.
No, top 8 masters is the same as before, and doesn't always mean high masters. The tier removal only affects diamond and below.
Glad to see tier removal. Apart from more ability to predict promotions, it won't any more make you think you've dropped a couple of notches if you simply place in a better division than you'd been before.
WE want out win loss ration back, becasue you can really learn a lot. I am floating about top 4 SIlver, but i always beat GOLd, and i wan tto see my ratio. cbut this will really help. ya blizz
PS: u can also take away the queen buff. Actually i dont mind, becasue almost no lower level players make a lot of queens
I'm going to post this here since I know how stingy TL is with random question threads, and this thread seems to have the most users posting in it right now:
Why is it that my ladder opponents range from gold to plat to diamond to masters all within a dozen games?
I just don't get it. I'm keeping up a 50-60 win ratio, beating diamond..........and then I'll face a gold. I'll beat him, and then I'll face a platinum. ??? And now I just faced and lost to a Masters player.
Kinda split on the division thing since I tend to end up amongst the better 3:3 players in RT. But generally it's nice since alot of people think rank1 of whatever = top.
And monsoon back ♥! Fuckyea I love that map! Also Arakan Citadel out and a most likely playable map in its place. I like this alot.
i've always been confused, can you still get into GM even if it's ladder lock? I thought only all the other promotions (bronze - masters) were halted but gm was still open, or am i just wrong?
On September 08 2012 03:18 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 08 2012 03:08 TheFrankOne wrote:
On September 08 2012 03:03 paralleluniverse wrote:
On September 08 2012 02:58 jinorazi wrote:
On September 07 2012 18:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:
On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote: so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid
If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.
isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on
You cannot make that conclusion.
It is only true on average.
Doesn't it mean you are the top ranked out of a randomly selected group (in your league) instead of out of a group subtly biased to contain players of a certain skill level?
Yes. But if there are 1000 random groups, several of them are randomly going to have higher skill than the rest. The distribution of the average skill of a group will be normally (not uniformly) distributed according to the central limit theorem, so some groups will be better than other simply because of random chance.
Being in the top 2% of a randomly selected group doesn't mean that you're in the top 2% of the league. It means on average you are in the top 2% of the league.
But, if it works like Master League, it isn't simply a case of taking X players and dividing them randomly between divisions. As new people are promoted new divisions are created, and these divisions will usually have significantly worse players in them because they're all freshly promoted.
Thus in Masters you get a large variety of strong divisions and weak divisions with no real 'average' to speak of that would allow a rank comparison between them. That is to say, with the way Master League works now, the statement "I'm top 8 Masters" (in terms of demonstrating skill) is completely irrelevant.
Note that in the first division you need 1077 points to be top 8. That would mean you are ranked 3,300th in Master League as a whole. Pretty low. Thus in the second division, which is stronger, instead of being ranked 8th you would be ranked 47th. So are you in the top 8% of Masters players, or the top 47%? It's quite a significant difference.
On September 08 2012 02:21 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: Blizzard is a fucking joke. Why wasn't this simply implemented at the start of the game? It makes no sense to have hidden rankings among same divisions (not MMR). This just leaves the player clueless as to when he will get promoted or not. For fucks sake, it takes you two years to realize that your ladder system is confusing? Blizzard.......
Your post make no sense..you know that ? Blizzard fix something.. people say that blizzard is a joke because they fix it.. People like you are a joke.
On September 08 2012 16:15 AxionSteel wrote: Damn, I liked Arakan Citadel
Well it has been in the map pool since beta (iirc) so it's time for it to go. While apparently very popular I never liked it for some reson. I had alot of interesting features like mineral only gold and lots of possibilites Cant really put my finger on why I dislike it, other than shared bases. Well I have played extremely few entertaining games on it, might be that. Have had it vetoed for over a year but I play it once in a while when I'm not party leader. Happy to see it go anyways but I can see that people liked it.
Currently not all divisions within a League are created equal. Individual divisions are actually assigned to different “tiers”, and players are assigned to tiers based on skill. This system hasn't been very transparent, making it difficult to determine your next promotion. For example, if you’re in a lower tiered Diamond division, just getting to Rank 1 doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll see a promotion soon.
With the goal of increasing transparency for ladder players, we’re removing tiers from the ladder with the commencement of 2012 Season 4. The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they’re at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
personally I think the ladder tier removal is a great step forward, now if they could only give us our Wins/Loss ratio back, because not seeing that isn't very transparent either.
Also taldarim has it's rocks removed at the 3rd!
edit: it literally means, rank 100 - 1 is the top %100 to %1 of your rank, bronze all the way to GM. If you are 100 bronze you are literally the worst player in the entire game, along with the other 100's that will exist. We will still have divisions and compete within our division, but it will make going up a rank, from 53 to 52, actually mean something, but it will probably take more work now. So those achievements you got for getting top 8 in your division? well that's going to be very hard to get now.
Excal_Z edit: This ladder change is going to mean that all of the leagues will now become just like Master league (except for showing losses). There will still be divisions of 100 players each, but they'll all be equal and therefore no longer apply hidden offsets. Therefore, in an ideal environment with the skill of all players evenly distributed across divisions (meaning you don't have Division 1 with all GSL Code S players and Division 2 with all GSL Code B players) and as long as everyone is spending all their bonus pool, what Blizzard says is accurate: rank 1 would roughly equate to the top 1% of the league.
Incidentally, this is going to make sites like SC2Ranks far more accurate as a means to gauge how you rank among the rest of your league.
Note that promotions will still be determined by MMR, the removal of division tiers only affects the points that are displayed in divisional rankings.
But who cares about rank? It has always has been points that count for how good you are, not rank. Nevermind what if there are 2 players in one division with a lot of points, you can't say only rank 1 will be in the top 1%, that can't be true.
Before the patch points were not relevant <master league because there were division tiers. Next season rank will still mean as much as before because relative to the people in your division your points are still the same. After the patch you can just compare yourself better to people from other divisions. It's a good change.
On September 08 2012 22:07 Aterons_toss wrote: Wait, they had divisions based on "tiers"... am i the only one who never knew this ?!
I dont get this aswell. And i dont know what is changing now :S. How is rank 1 in lets say diamond group A, going to compete with group B who's top 16 players all have more points? How does this make sense?
Edit: Why dont they make it such as all divisions are connected; You still have divisions with 100 people in it. But in order to get from rank 100 to 99 u need to have more points then all 99 ranked people?
On September 08 2012 02:21 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: Blizzard is a fucking joke. Why wasn't this simply implemented at the start of the game? It makes no sense to have hidden rankings among same divisions (not MMR). This just leaves the player clueless as to when he will get promoted or not. For fucks sake, it takes you two years to realize that your ladder system is confusing? Blizzard.......
Your post make no sense..you know that ? Blizzard fix something.. people say that blizzard is a joke because they fix it.. People like you are a joke.
it's a joke because it took them 2 years to fix a plainly obvious problem
I support this 100%. Blizzard always treats us with little children, hiding as many stats so that we don't feel bad about our place on the ladder, win/loss ratio, how good we actually are, basically.
I would rather know exactly how I measure up to other diamond players.
Wow people still think win ratio means something in a system designed for the sole purpose to give you a 50% win/loss across all varying skill levels...
On September 08 2012 23:16 Penecks wrote: Wow people still think win ratio means something in a system designed for the sole purpose to give you a 50% win/loss across all varying skill levels...
Does the system still try to put you at a 50/50 ratio in masters? I haven't actually read anywhere that it confirms or denies. All they usually say is that the Masters league is tierless.,
On September 08 2012 22:07 Aterons_toss wrote: Wait, they had divisions based on "tiers"... am i the only one who never knew this ?!
I never knew, either. I guess it makes sense in terms of having fun in your division. It is more pleasant to be close to the one above your rank so you can actually catch up with him within a few games. If you have 200 points to go just to gain one rank its much less encouraging. So I'd say if you want to have divisions, this tier thing is OK. If you want to globally compare players, its not transparent. But why would you have division then anyway?
So... pretty much no change. Meh. I was hoping for like no divisions or like it was before even though it was only for a couple of days where you could get people better and worse than you more often at a wider range.
I could like this no tier thing, maybe. But after a couple matches it will just be another day on the ladder.
On September 08 2012 22:07 Aterons_toss wrote: Wait, they had divisions based on "tiers"... am i the only one who never knew this ?!
I never knew, either. I guess it makes sense in terms of having fun in your division. It is more pleasant to be close to the one above your rank so you can actually catch up with him within a few games. If you have 200 points to go just to gain one rank its much less encouraging. So I'd say if you want to have divisions, this tier thing is OK. If you want to globally compare players, its not transparent. But why would you have division then anyway?
Ohh and btw: +1 for having losses visible again.
Then that means you haven't read the Ladder Guide sticky!
Division tiers are small "sub-leagues" that span a more narrow range of MMR. The lower tiers are given point offsets to counterbalance the lower average skill, effectively normalizing the point ranges for a league.
On September 09 2012 03:07 hpTheGreat wrote: i won a game this morning and it didnt use any of my bonus pool . I have 50 or so points in my pool. Anyone else experiencing this ?
Bonuspool is still rising in ingame-frontend. But its locked in the backend. A bug that happens often at end of a season.
On September 08 2012 22:07 Aterons_toss wrote: Wait, they had divisions based on "tiers"... am i the only one who never knew this ?!
I never knew, either. I guess it makes sense in terms of having fun in your division. It is more pleasant to be close to the one above your rank so you can actually catch up with him within a few games. If you have 200 points to go just to gain one rank its much less encouraging. So I'd say if you want to have divisions, this tier thing is OK. If you want to globally compare players, its not transparent. But why would you have division then anyway?
Ohh and btw: +1 for having losses visible again.
Then that means you haven't read the Ladder Guide sticky!
Division tiers are small "sub-leagues" that span a more narrow range of MMR. The lower tiers are given point offsets to counterbalance the lower average skill, effectively normalizing the point ranges for a league.
How does that work though? How are the points offset displayed? Are they in your total points display? If they are, does that mean it's including the calculation and points offset when you win or lose a match and gain more or less points depending on your tier within a league?
On September 09 2012 03:07 hpTheGreat wrote: i won a game this morning and it didnt use any of my bonus pool . I have 50 or so points in my pool. Anyone else experiencing this ?
Can't believe there is no discussion about the disgraceful map pool changes (or lack thereof) for next season. It's a goddamned joke. Retire Shakura's and TDA for the love of god. Add any of the dozens of incredible maps available. At the very least, add Metropolis back in.
OMG! So guys we need to change up the ladder poll a bit for season 9, what should we do? Well our reasources are currently extremly limited so we will have to make do with what we got. Well I heard that players dont really like rocks at the 3rd. So if we remove rocks at the 3rd from all maps, then everyone will be more happy. Currently the only map with rocks at the 3rd is Tal darim.
Ow yeah! I saw that map in a tournoment like a year ago. I liked it. Okey we remove rocks from tal darim! We have a map poll! Sir what about Metropolis? What?! No! That map has rocks at the natural choke, what makes you think people would want that map! Now back to hots everyone!
I really want to kill myself. I REALLY hope blizzard makes some more changes ow god.
On September 09 2012 03:07 hpTheGreat wrote: i won a game this morning and it didnt use any of my bonus pool . I have 50 or so points in my pool. Anyone else experiencing this ?
Bonuspool is still rising in ingame-frontend. But its locked in the backend. A bug that happens often at end of a season.
Oh nvm, i only read the op diagonally.
I thought what they were gonna do is basically have top 1% of a league be shown as rank 1, top 1% to 2 % shown as rank 2 , 49% to 50% shown as rank 50... etc
Now in understood that they simply make divisions lower than master be randomized and even again... I didn't even knew they were not.
On September 09 2012 12:14 IPA wrote: Can't believe there is no discussion about the disgraceful map pool changes (or lack thereof) for next season. It's a goddamned joke. Retire Shakura's and TDA for the love of god. Add any of the dozens of incredible maps available. At the very least, add Metropolis back in.
It's just a real shame...
I want new maps aswell. I appreciate the ranking system change but this season was so long I really hoped blizz would spice ladder up a bit. At least they could put Metropolis back in after they took it out 'temporarily until it is fixed'.
You can now compare yourself to everyone else and know when to expect promotion, but only if EVERYONE uses all of their bonus pool? If we are comparing based on points, then everyone would need the same baseline. So it seems to me that this change means nothing in diamond and below since there's tons of people that have lots of bonus pool who will be lower ranked (in our eyes) than their actual skill level since their hidden MMR keeps them where their actual ranking is.
Since very few people have to worry about trying to get into GM from masters, what exactly does this change accomplish? You can now compare yourself to other people if and only if you both have the same amount of bonus pool, and global percentile will always be inflated due to stagnant bonus pool on other individuals?
now we need to show the win/losses again. Not only do we need that, but we also need race win/loss in 1v1 as to see which matchups we are weak against. It should be adding statistics (i.e. average game length) not removing them!
On September 08 2012 02:49 Targe wrote: That's an awesome update, they aren't giving us elo or mmr rankings but this will keep me happy!
I'm no longer going to feel false pride from being top 8, I'll know I've earned my place there.
No, you might not have..
The only thing this change shows you is that 800 points in division A is the same as 800 points in division B now. You could still be rank 50 with 800 points in one division, and rank 1 with 800 points in another, and your "global ranking" and skill level, mmr could be identical in both.
Before, you could be +- hundreds of points in one division due to offsets and not be able to measure or compare via points, now you can. Division ranking was always and still is a horrible means of ranking skill unless all bonus pool is spent and you are at least diamond/master where half the divisions are not 2-months-afk, and even then, you should be comparing points, now that you actuly can, instead of being top 8 of some arbitrary pool of 100 random people
On September 08 2012 02:49 Targe wrote: That's an awesome update, they aren't giving us elo or mmr rankings but this will keep me happy!
I'm no longer going to feel false pride from being top 8, I'll know I've earned my place there.
No, you might not have..
The only thing this change shows you is that 800 points in division A is the same as 800 points in division B now. You could still be rank 50 with 800 points in one division, and rank 1 with 800 points in another, and your "global ranking" and skill level, mmr could be identical in both.
Before, you could be +- hundreds of points in one division due to offsets and not be able to measure or compare via points, now you can. Division ranking was always and still is a horrible means of ranking skill unless all bonus pool is spent and you are at least diamond/master where half the divisions are not 2-months-afk, and even then, you should be comparing points, now that you actuly can, instead of being top 8 of some arbitrary pool of 100 random people
Still, with sc2ranks.com and sc2gears' MMR plugin, this will give us a much better idea as to how good we really are compared to others. So it's a great change in my book.
On September 10 2012 18:10 SEA KarMa wrote: now we need to show the win/losses again. Not only do we need that, but we also need race win/loss in 1v1 as to see which matchups we are weak against. It should be adding statistics (i.e. average game length) not removing them!
On September 10 2012 22:29 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Anyone knows what is the point threshold to reach masters? @wajd the next season starts at 12 of September afaik
On September 10 2012 18:10 SEA KarMa wrote: now we need to show the win/losses again. Not only do we need that, but we also need race win/loss in 1v1 as to see which matchups we are weak against. It should be adding statistics (i.e. average game length) not removing them!
Just install SC2 Gears and you got this.
There's no reason we should be adding 3rd party programs to see stats we can't see due to shitty policy.
On September 10 2012 22:29 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Anyone knows what is the point threshold to reach masters? @wajd the next season starts at 12 of September afaik
On September 10 2012 22:29 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Anyone knows what is the point threshold to reach masters? @wajd the next season starts at 12 of September afaik
On September 10 2012 22:29 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Anyone knows what is the point threshold to reach masters? @wajd the next season starts at 12 of September afaik
On September 07 2012 10:16 DGB.Zerok wrote: Can someone explain me a little better what is ladder tier? My english sucks
Ladder tier means theirs different tiers...
"there is" Your english also sucks.
This is a cool idea. It'll be nice to be able to better understand our rankings!
"there are" Since it is plural.
"Since it is plural" is not a complete sentence. I just wanted to keep the string of grammatical corrections going. I still don't fully understand this tiering thing and why they won't show MMR.
I don’t really either? How will sc2ranks be affected by this in anyway? Doesn’t it just consolidate everyone within the league and show you your total points as a percentile within respects to the total?
a. They did not say the match making system itself is changing. b. The points awarded for wins/loses are not impacted by your division currently.. so 800 points in diamond has the same value regardless of division.
The way I read it is the only difference is the skill of the players you’re grouped within your division is changing. Currently the players in your division should theoretically resemble your own, however going forward that skill-gap is widened to the total league vs. just a singular division?
On September 11 2012 04:05 Ignorant prodigy wrote: I don’t really either? How will sc2ranks be affected by this in anyway? Doesn’t it just consolidate everyone within the league and show you your total points as a percentile within respects to the total?
a. They did not say the match making system itself is changing. b. The points awarded for wins/loses are not impacted by your division currently.. so 800 points in diamond has the same value regardless of division.
The way I read it is the only difference is the skill of the players you’re grouped within your division is changing. Currently the players in your division should theoretically resemble your own, however going forward that skill-gap is widened to the total league vs. just a singular division?
a. Correct. b. Points awarded are impacted by your division currently. There's a special rule in place where if you are facing someone who would earn you less points than you would earn if they were part of your division tier, the points you earn are made equal to that. For example if you are in a division of 1400-1500 MMR and you played someone with 1300 MMR, you would earn points as though your opponent were a 1400 MMR player. Obviously, this can skew things. It doesn't apply to Master+ players though. Will this be changed under the new system? Perhaps... we won't know until it goes live. c. Correct. In theory this should make it easier to tell where you stand among the rest of your league, but there will always be edge cases.
On September 11 2012 04:05 Ignorant prodigy wrote: I don’t really either? How will sc2ranks be affected by this in anyway? Doesn’t it just consolidate everyone within the league and show you your total points as a percentile within respects to the total?
a. They did not say the match making system itself is changing. b. The points awarded for wins/loses are not impacted by your division currently.. so 800 points in diamond has the same value regardless of division.
The way I read it is the only difference is the skill of the players you’re grouped within your division is changing. Currently the players in your division should theoretically resemble your own, however going forward that skill-gap is widened to the total league vs. just a singular division?
Comparisons in sc2ranks will become easier, as in the future system player's adjusted points (ladder points - used bonus points) are comparable inside each league (not between). Currently it is hard as leagues (except master+) have several hidden skill tiers into which the different divisions belong. E.g. adjusted points & point changes of diamond player in lowest skill tier are not directly comparable with the ones of diamond player in the highest skill tier. More info can be found in excalibur_z:s guide.
On September 11 2012 04:11 wajd wrote: Did one used to change divisions unknowingly?
No. You are first placed into a division that has a certain hidden skill tier. There is no movement inside the league (not between divisions and division skill tier does not change). Except if you are first demoted/promoted to lower/higher league and then drop/rise back and are placed into another division that belongs to another skill tier.
I thought they were removing division all together? and your rank will just show what yout top% placing is in your class. i.e. if you are 5th out of 100 bronze players your rank would be Bronze 5. or more realistically, 3300th out of 30,000 bronze players you'd be Bronze rank 11. as you would be in the top 11% etc. This way when you reach rank 1 in your class (bronze, silver, etc.) you'd be really close to promotion. The opposite if you were rank 100 then you would be next for a demotion. (100 meaning you were better then 0% of the players)
On September 11 2012 04:36 CT Legacy wrote: I thought they were removing division all together? and your rank will just show what yout top% placing is in your class. i.e. if you are 5th out of 100 bronze players your rank would be Bronze 5. or more realistically, 3300th out of 30,000 bronze players you'd be Bronze rank 11. as you would be in the top 11% etc. This way when you reach rank 1 in your class (bronze, silver, etc.) you'd be really close to promotion. The opposite if you were rank 100 then you would be next for a demotion. (100 meaning you were better then 0% of the players)
That is not the case. Nowhere in Blizzard's explanation does it say they're removing divisions, only that the skill tiers will disappear. This means that instead of 2 or 3 or 7 developing parallel divisions, there will be only one: the newest one. Instead of putting you into a pool of 100 players around your skill level, you'll be put into a pool of 100 players in the same league.
All they said was that rank 2 would roughly be equivalent to the top 2% in your league, but that is only true if a) everyone in your division has spent all their bonus pool, b) everyone in your division has played enough games to establish their MMR, c) every division has the exact same skill spread. It's basically only going to ever be true on the average. In any event, it's not the "1 rank represents 1,546 places" that you're thinking.
From P spot taldarim altar is playable only vs teran cause z with third without rocks will get big advatage and pvp 4 gate non stop just terrible so veto this map and hope blizz wakes up and make some really count mappool changes..... they ZZZ or why not new map??????
On September 11 2012 02:48 Tyrtl wrote: awesome, the ladder tier thing will really help frusturated high bronze league up into silver. It was annoying as hell for me.
It has no effect on that, especially since there has never been tiers in bronze and silver, so those leagues aren't affected.
On September 11 2012 02:48 Tyrtl wrote: awesome, the ladder tier thing will really help frusturated high bronze league up into silver. It was annoying as hell for me.
It has no effect on that, especially since there has never been tiers in bronze and silver, so those leagues aren't affected.
Incorrect. Bronze league has 7 tiers and silver has 3 (maybe 2?). With that said, it is highly unlikely anyone will get promoted by these changes unless they change the league thresholds significantly. The normal new season boost in promotion (slightly easier to promote at the start of a new season) will promote/demote some bordeline people, however.
On September 11 2012 06:52 archon256 wrote: I'm not sure if I want to play TA even now... not looking forward to ramp-less ZvZ again.
What do the other Zergs think?
You just have to 14/14 every game. Its probably going to suck but whatever... Idk why they didn't just put Metropolis/Whirlwind/Atlantis Spaceship/almost any other map...
On September 11 2012 06:52 archon256 wrote: I'm not sure if I want to play TA even now... not looking forward to ramp-less ZvZ again.
What do the other Zergs think?
You just have to 14/14 every game. Its probably going to suck but whatever... Idk why they didn't just put Metropolis/Whirlwind/Atlantis Spaceship/almost any other map...
What people don't realize is that in the WCS tournament they use ladder maps, if they were to take out lets say TA and Shakuras then it wouldn't be fair to some people who actually only practice on ladder. Trust me when WCS is over you'll likely see Shakuras and TA gone, for now people should just calm down about those two maps and veto if necessary.
On September 11 2012 16:32 ConGee wrote: Does anyone know when the season ACTUALLY closes?
Its closed already for like week or longer , and new seson for EU starts tomorrow . Like everytime i think its maintence for EU server from 05:00 in Eu night , and its start at 11:00
On September 11 2012 06:52 archon256 wrote: I'm not sure if I want to play TA even now... not looking forward to ramp-less ZvZ again.
What do the other Zergs think?
I like TA as zerg , just remmember one thing in ZvZ never attack on TA ;P , sit in base and def , or look for good position fight in mid field.. infestors on these TA ramps are so good in ZvZ I win so many ZvZ on TA when i was behind , just becuase opponent attack my ramp.. and infestors did good job ;P
On September 11 2012 23:13 Mindflow wrote: anyone have ETA on when the season is finishing on NA servers?
I would imagine early afternoon. I am surprised they didn't implement it over night to be honest. There was also some site maintenance being done on Battle.net the site proper as well this morning. I suppose Blizzard has some other stuff they were rolling out too.
It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones. THUS you couldn't compare player skills by their ladder points at leagues under master. Only this is possible now.
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
"Ladder Tier Removal Currently not all divisions within a League are created equal. Individual divisions are actually assigned to different "tiers", and players are assigned to tiers based on skill. This system hasn't been very transparent, making it to determine your next promotion. For example, if you're in a lower tiered Diamond division, just getting to Rank 1 doesn't necessarily mean you'll see a promotion soon.
With the goal of increasing transparency for ladder players, we're removing tiers from the ladder with the commencement of 2012 Season 4.
The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
We'll be examining how well this works over the course of the coming season, and make a determination if we'll keep the system for the long term or make further adjustments, if needed.
Good luck, have fun!"
Its clear for me ...IF you are in top 10 diamond you are in top 10% diamond players in region so .. going by your logic.. someone with 800 points and rank 4-5 is in top 5 % players ? When other divisions have top 10 with 1200+ points ? Try to think..
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
There was not a single wording on this by Blizzard. If they start filling the divisions by player skill instead of "first come, first serve" now, this was 100% unannounced. I'm pretty sure Blizzard would have announced such a change. Which they didn't
Lol pallad how you mean? Blizz cant know how much will players play and how much will win. I dont understand what you wrote, except now is possible to be promoted in stronger diamond division from your own, which isnt the case
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
"Ladder Tier Removal Currently not all divisions within a League are created equal. Individual divisions are actually assigned to different "tiers", and players are assigned to tiers based on skill. This system hasn't been very transparent, making it to determine your next promotion. For example, if you're in a lower tiered Diamond division, just getting to Rank 1 doesn't necessarily mean you'll see a promotion soon.
With the goal of increasing transparency for ladder players, we're removing tiers from the ladder with the commencement of 2012 Season 4.
The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
We'll be examining how well this works over the course of the coming season, and make a determination if we'll keep the system for the long term or make further adjustments, if needed.
Good luck, have fun!"
Its clear for me ...IF you are in top 10 diamond you are in top 10% diamond players in region so .. going by your logic.. someone with 800 points and rank 4-5 is in top 5 % players ? When other divisions have top 10 with 1200+ points ? Try to think..
Again, They wrote not a thing about mixing divisions. What they are saying there is meant on average.
To really make work what they wrote in that post, people would have to be put into different divisions while the seasons last. And this - I can't image they would do this (although it would be cool imo)
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
"Ladder Tier Removal Currently not all divisions within a League are created equal. Individual divisions are actually assigned to different "tiers", and players are assigned to tiers based on skill. This system hasn't been very transparent, making it to determine your next promotion. For example, if you're in a lower tiered Diamond division, just getting to Rank 1 doesn't necessarily mean you'll see a promotion soon.
With the goal of increasing transparency for ladder players, we're removing tiers from the ladder with the commencement of 2012 Season 4.
The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
We'll be examining how well this works over the course of the coming season, and make a determination if we'll keep the system for the long term or make further adjustments, if needed.
Good luck, have fun!"
Its clear for me ...IF you are in top 10 diamond you are in top 10% diamond players in region so .. going by your logic.. someone with 800 points and rank 4-5 is in top 5 % players ? When other divisions have top 10 with 1200+ points ? Try to think..
I am going to have to agree with ZwuckeL on this one. The tiers will make players that have the same amount of points "equal" in skill as the ladder sees it. Removing tiers is in no way of "balancing" individual divisions. When players are placed into divisions, they have no way of knowing if they are putting the best 100, worst 100 or some other mix into that division. As stated above, there will still be "bad" divisions. There is still the chance that a division will be 90% full of people that went on vacation from the game for two months etc. I hope this clears things up, so we dont have to argue this much further.
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
There was not a single wording on this by Blizzard. If they start filling the divisions by player skill instead of "first come, first serve" now, this was 100% unannounced. I'm pretty sure Blizzard would have announced such a change. Which they didn't
Yes they Did
"The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
But nvm this disscusion make no seanse..you will see very soon who is right
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
"Ladder Tier Removal Currently not all divisions within a League are created equal. Individual divisions are actually assigned to different "tiers", and players are assigned to tiers based on skill. This system hasn't been very transparent, making it to determine your next promotion. For example, if you're in a lower tiered Diamond division, just getting to Rank 1 doesn't necessarily mean you'll see a promotion soon.
With the goal of increasing transparency for ladder players, we're removing tiers from the ladder with the commencement of 2012 Season 4.
The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
We'll be examining how well this works over the course of the coming season, and make a determination if we'll keep the system for the long term or make further adjustments, if needed.
Good luck, have fun!"
Its clear for me ...IF you are in top 10 diamond you are in top 10% diamond players in region so .. going by your logic.. someone with 800 points and rank 4-5 is in top 5 % players ? When other divisions have top 10 with 1200+ points ? Try to think..
I am going to have to agree with ZwuckeL on this one. The tiers will make players that have the same amount of points "equal" in skill as the ladder sees it. Removing tiers is in no way of "balancing" individual divisions. When players are placed into divisions, they have no way of knowing if they are putting the best 100, worst 100 or some other mix into that division. As stated above, there will still be "bad" divisions. There is still the chance that a division will be 90% full of people that went on vacation from the game for two months etc. I hope this clears things up, so we dont have to argue this much further.
And you are wrong here... blizzard WRITE
"After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
So going by your thinking , someone hit top 5 in bad division with 700 points when in toher divions have 1200 for same top places.. HOW TO HELL this person with 700 can be in top % of region .. when in other divisions players have much more points..
Now you see this or still no? THEY MUST make mixing divions or this makes no sense. So there will be mixing divions or blizzard lie in news simple
"After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
Look at the post I made above. If you still don't get it, I can't help you any further. Next time I will charge you for teaching you stuff. I'd happily like to see your face when you realize you were wrong ; )
edit. only because blizzard formulated their text idioticly and overall wrong shouldn't take away the ability for you to use your brain. Think about what you read and see. Stop just eating it and believing stuff blindly. Things like that never end well (see religion)
Man dont be stubborn, since you cant be promoted in other, stronger division of same league, divisions will not be balanced perfectly as you think. Maybe they will sort it by mmr but still they cant know how much is each player going to play nor win to achieve what are you talking about
On September 12 2012 00:45 DGB.Zerok wrote: Man dont be stubborn, since you cant be promoted in other, stronger division of same league, divisions will not be balanced perfectly as you think. Maybe they will sort it by mmr but still they cant know how much is each player going to play nor win to achieve what are you talking about
So the divisions that are created first will tend to be better.
But the point is that divisions are now ignorable.
FORGET DIVISIONS. You can now completely ignore them. Compare points or points minus bonus pool. Or look up your rank on SC2Ranks. Before these things could not be done. Now they can. Forget divisions.
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
There was not a single wording on this by Blizzard. If they start filling the divisions by player skill instead of "first come, first serve" now, this was 100% unannounced. I'm pretty sure Blizzard would have announced such a change. Which they didn't
Yes they Did
"The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
But nvm this disscusion make no seanse..you will see very soon who is right
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
"Ladder Tier Removal Currently not all divisions within a League are created equal. Individual divisions are actually assigned to different "tiers", and players are assigned to tiers based on skill. This system hasn't been very transparent, making it to determine your next promotion. For example, if you're in a lower tiered Diamond division, just getting to Rank 1 doesn't necessarily mean you'll see a promotion soon.
With the goal of increasing transparency for ladder players, we're removing tiers from the ladder with the commencement of 2012 Season 4.
The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
We'll be examining how well this works over the course of the coming season, and make a determination if we'll keep the system for the long term or make further adjustments, if needed.
Good luck, have fun!"
Its clear for me ...IF you are in top 10 diamond you are in top 10% diamond players in region so .. going by your logic.. someone with 800 points and rank 4-5 is in top 5 % players ? When other divisions have top 10 with 1200+ points ? Try to think..
I am going to have to agree with ZwuckeL on this one. The tiers will make players that have the same amount of points "equal" in skill as the ladder sees it. Removing tiers is in no way of "balancing" individual divisions. When players are placed into divisions, they have no way of knowing if they are putting the best 100, worst 100 or some other mix into that division. As stated above, there will still be "bad" divisions. There is still the chance that a division will be 90% full of people that went on vacation from the game for two months etc. I hope this clears things up, so we dont have to argue this much further.
And you are wrong here... blizzard WRITE "After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
So going by your thinking , someone hit top 5 in bad division with 700 points when in toher divions have 1200 for same top places.. HOW TO HELL this person with 700 can be in top % of region .. when in other divisions players have much more points..
Now you see this or still no? THEY MUST make mixing divions or this makes no sense.
"After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
ZwuckeL is right. Divisions aren't going to subdivide leagues into skill ranges anymore, meaning a much wider range of skill is possible for each division. I said before that it's theoretically possible to have "divisions of death" where all the high-end people coincidentally make it into one division, in which case the average points will be much higher. It's random chance where you'll end up. The "rank 2 = 2%" thing is only true on the average and even then in a very broad sense. Don't read too much into it.
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
There was not a single wording on this by Blizzard. If they start filling the divisions by player skill instead of "first come, first serve" now, this was 100% unannounced. I'm pretty sure Blizzard would have announced such a change. Which they didn't
Yes they Did
"The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
But nvm this disscusion make no seanse..you will see very soon who is right
On September 12 2012 00:40 _Jupiter_ wrote:
On September 12 2012 00:32 pallad wrote:
On September 12 2012 00:28 ZwuckeL wrote:
On September 12 2012 00:16 pallad wrote:
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
"Ladder Tier Removal Currently not all divisions within a League are created equal. Individual divisions are actually assigned to different "tiers", and players are assigned to tiers based on skill. This system hasn't been very transparent, making it to determine your next promotion. For example, if you're in a lower tiered Diamond division, just getting to Rank 1 doesn't necessarily mean you'll see a promotion soon.
With the goal of increasing transparency for ladder players, we're removing tiers from the ladder with the commencement of 2012 Season 4.
The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
We'll be examining how well this works over the course of the coming season, and make a determination if we'll keep the system for the long term or make further adjustments, if needed.
Good luck, have fun!"
Its clear for me ...IF you are in top 10 diamond you are in top 10% diamond players in region so .. going by your logic.. someone with 800 points and rank 4-5 is in top 5 % players ? When other divisions have top 10 with 1200+ points ? Try to think..
I am going to have to agree with ZwuckeL on this one. The tiers will make players that have the same amount of points "equal" in skill as the ladder sees it. Removing tiers is in no way of "balancing" individual divisions. When players are placed into divisions, they have no way of knowing if they are putting the best 100, worst 100 or some other mix into that division. As stated above, there will still be "bad" divisions. There is still the chance that a division will be 90% full of people that went on vacation from the game for two months etc. I hope this clears things up, so we dont have to argue this much further.
And you are wrong here... blizzard WRITE "After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
So going by your thinking , someone hit top 5 in bad division with 700 points when in toher divions have 1200 for same top places.. HOW TO HELL this person with 700 can be in top % of region .. when in other divisions players have much more points..
Now you see this or still no? THEY MUST make mixing divions or this makes no sense.
"After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
ZwuckeL is right. Divisions aren't going to subdivide leagues into skill ranges anymore, meaning a much wider range of skill is possible for each division. I said before that it's theoretically possible to have "divisions of death" where all the high-end people coincidentally make it into one division, in which case the average points will be much higher. It's random chance where you'll end up. The "rank 2 = 2%" thing is only true on the average and even then in a very broad sense. Don't read too much into it.
I get your point , but you dont know yet .. if division placement will be random , maby this season they will place players based on MMR , not "first" to play , its possibility
Maby im stupid or something.. but if blizzard dont makes mixed divisions this make no seanse
""After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.""
because how you imagine that ? Someone hit top place in waek divsion , and he is in top% of the region with much less points that others.. ? i dont get it.
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
There was not a single wording on this by Blizzard. If they start filling the divisions by player skill instead of "first come, first serve" now, this was 100% unannounced. I'm pretty sure Blizzard would have announced such a change. Which they didn't
Yes they Did
"The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
But nvm this disscusion make no seanse..you will see very soon who is right
On September 12 2012 00:40 _Jupiter_ wrote:
On September 12 2012 00:32 pallad wrote:
On September 12 2012 00:28 ZwuckeL wrote:
On September 12 2012 00:16 pallad wrote:
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
"Ladder Tier Removal Currently not all divisions within a League are created equal. Individual divisions are actually assigned to different "tiers", and players are assigned to tiers based on skill. This system hasn't been very transparent, making it to determine your next promotion. For example, if you're in a lower tiered Diamond division, just getting to Rank 1 doesn't necessarily mean you'll see a promotion soon.
With the goal of increasing transparency for ladder players, we're removing tiers from the ladder with the commencement of 2012 Season 4.
The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
We'll be examining how well this works over the course of the coming season, and make a determination if we'll keep the system for the long term or make further adjustments, if needed.
Good luck, have fun!"
Its clear for me ...IF you are in top 10 diamond you are in top 10% diamond players in region so .. going by your logic.. someone with 800 points and rank 4-5 is in top 5 % players ? When other divisions have top 10 with 1200+ points ? Try to think..
I am going to have to agree with ZwuckeL on this one. The tiers will make players that have the same amount of points "equal" in skill as the ladder sees it. Removing tiers is in no way of "balancing" individual divisions. When players are placed into divisions, they have no way of knowing if they are putting the best 100, worst 100 or some other mix into that division. As stated above, there will still be "bad" divisions. There is still the chance that a division will be 90% full of people that went on vacation from the game for two months etc. I hope this clears things up, so we dont have to argue this much further.
And you are wrong here... blizzard WRITE "After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
So going by your thinking , someone hit top 5 in bad division with 700 points when in toher divions have 1200 for same top places.. HOW TO HELL this person with 700 can be in top % of region .. when in other divisions players have much more points..
Now you see this or still no? THEY MUST make mixing divions or this makes no sense.
"After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
ZwuckeL is right. Divisions aren't going to subdivide leagues into skill ranges anymore, meaning a much wider range of skill is possible for each division. I said before that it's theoretically possible to have "divisions of death" where all the high-end people coincidentally make it into one division, in which case the average points will be much higher. It's random chance where you'll end up. The "rank 2 = 2%" thing is only true on the average and even then in a very broad sense. Don't read too much into it.
I get your point , but you dont know yet .. if division placement will be random , maby this season they will place players based on MMR , not "first" to play , its possibility
Maby im stupid or something.. but if blizzard dont makes mixed divisions this make no seanse
""After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.""
because how you imagine that ? Someone hit top place in waek divsion , and he is in top% of the region with much less points that others.. ? i dont get it.
You should never interpret announcements / posts made by Blizzard from word to word. Blizzard is known to include lots of so called "marketing text" or "PR text" in their announcements that makes things sound better than they are.
If Blizzard would start filling divisions based on MMR they would need to have potentially tens of divisions filling parallel (depends e.g. on how many 'MMR range classes' there would be. This could mean e.g. in plat 33% spots for old lowest skill tier, 33% for old middle tier and 33% for the old highest tier). It would take a long time for divisions to be fully filled and late season divisions would likely have lots of unused spots. And that would not even solve the problem as people's skill and MMR change over time, but division placements do not change over time (only demotions/promotions to lower/higher leagues).
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
There was not a single wording on this by Blizzard. If they start filling the divisions by player skill instead of "first come, first serve" now, this was 100% unannounced. I'm pretty sure Blizzard would have announced such a change. Which they didn't
Yes they Did
"The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
But nvm this disscusion make no seanse..you will see very soon who is right
On September 12 2012 00:40 _Jupiter_ wrote:
On September 12 2012 00:32 pallad wrote:
On September 12 2012 00:28 ZwuckeL wrote:
On September 12 2012 00:16 pallad wrote:
On September 11 2012 23:31 Koshi wrote: It has been so long since I played SCII. I wonder if I will play next season. I don't think the tier removal will do much. Not many spend their bonuspool, and probably the divisions won't be balanced at all. I don't think that is possible without changing players during the season.
Will do much for what.. ? So what people dont use bonus pool ? What bonus pool have to do with that disscusion ? I dont get it. Divisions will be now balanced perfectly , it will be end of diamond players that have 700-800 points and was in TOP 5 in division , and then they write they are top diamond players.. when in other divsion top 10 diamond players was siting at 1200 , or even more points.
Now you gonna know your real position in diamond for example , and all that players that was top 5 with 800 points will be maby in top 30 or even under 30 place. It is good because someone who hit top 5 with 700-800 points in "bad" diamond division , was thinking that he is near master skill lv , and that is not true.. he just was in low tier diamond division.
Dont know how you thinking , but I for example wanna know my real position in diamond league.
You haven't understood what tiers were even about. Why is everyone spreading this kind of completley false information?
These scenarios you described, where divisions exist that will have Top 5 players at 800 points, and other divisions where top 5 is at 1200, will still exist. Removing tiers won't effect this circumstance in any way.
Removing tiers means that a 1200 diamond player will be pretty much as good as another diamond player at 1200 points. Nothing more.
There will still be weak divisions where you can become top 8 without having lots of points compared to the other divisions.
edit. to clear things up, prior to the change, lower tiered players got "free points" (offsets) to their points added so that it looked as if they were evenly rated as higher tiered players, but in fact were very lower skilled than the high ones
Sorry sir , but person that dont understand this is you. And you are wrong. Now players will be mixed , no good/bad division anymore.
"Ladder Tier Removal Currently not all divisions within a League are created equal. Individual divisions are actually assigned to different "tiers", and players are assigned to tiers based on skill. This system hasn't been very transparent, making it to determine your next promotion. For example, if you're in a lower tiered Diamond division, just getting to Rank 1 doesn't necessarily mean you'll see a promotion soon.
With the goal of increasing transparency for ladder players, we're removing tiers from the ladder with the commencement of 2012 Season 4.
The removal of tiers from all leagues will allow players to better gauge exactly where they're at on the ladder and how far away they are from the next league.
After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.
We'll be examining how well this works over the course of the coming season, and make a determination if we'll keep the system for the long term or make further adjustments, if needed.
Good luck, have fun!"
Its clear for me ...IF you are in top 10 diamond you are in top 10% diamond players in region so .. going by your logic.. someone with 800 points and rank 4-5 is in top 5 % players ? When other divisions have top 10 with 1200+ points ? Try to think..
I am going to have to agree with ZwuckeL on this one. The tiers will make players that have the same amount of points "equal" in skill as the ladder sees it. Removing tiers is in no way of "balancing" individual divisions. When players are placed into divisions, they have no way of knowing if they are putting the best 100, worst 100 or some other mix into that division. As stated above, there will still be "bad" divisions. There is still the chance that a division will be 90% full of people that went on vacation from the game for two months etc. I hope this clears things up, so we dont have to argue this much further.
And you are wrong here... blizzard WRITE "After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
So going by your thinking , someone hit top 5 in bad division with 700 points when in toher divions have 1200 for same top places.. HOW TO HELL this person with 700 can be in top % of region .. when in other divisions players have much more points..
Now you see this or still no? THEY MUST make mixing divions or this makes no sense.
"After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth."
ZwuckeL is right. Divisions aren't going to subdivide leagues into skill ranges anymore, meaning a much wider range of skill is possible for each division. I said before that it's theoretically possible to have "divisions of death" where all the high-end people coincidentally make it into one division, in which case the average points will be much higher. It's random chance where you'll end up. The "rank 2 = 2%" thing is only true on the average and even then in a very broad sense. Don't read too much into it.
I get your point , but you dont know yet .. if division placement will be random , maby this season they will place players based on MMR , not "first" to play , its possibility
Maby im stupid or something.. but if blizzard dont makes mixed divisions this make no seanse
""After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth.""
because how you imagine that ? Someone hit top place in waek divsion , and he is in top% of the region with much less points that others.. ? i dont get it.
This is how you'll know. In Seasons 8 and earlier, divisions were created in parallel, and it had to do this because there was always one growing division per tier. If we're right, then in Season 9 and beyond, there will be only one incomplete division at any given time. This will prove that it's first-come, first-served because there won't be any "reserved" slots.
Currently the website is lagging behind (as usual) and SC2Ranks scrapes the website to gather its information. Once the Bnet website goes live with Season 9, SC2Ranks will be updated and you can use this division listing to verify (select a region, select a league, sort ascending by total players): http://sc2ranks.com/div/am/diamond/1/players/0#teams:0
the way they worded it... rank 2 would be top 2% like you said it's based on law of averages since all divisions are random now. Why do they need divisions in the first place? whats wrong with ranking us against all players in a league and just showing us the rank based on the actualy percentage 1-100%? ? Now it's even more confusing, since getting rank 1 now still only means you are better then the other 99 random people in your div. but not as good as the 45,634 other players in your league...
I don't get it. I'm currently 81st in my division. But nobody has more than 3 wins, so if I win 4 games I can jump from 81st percentile to the 1st? That doesn't make sense. :\
Also its weird because on SEA, it says that the seasonlock is 12 Sep 2012 :S So it should be locked today, hence why I am asking how long the downtime is
Anyone else notice that this season is bone crushingly hard? Every match I play is vs a Favored or Slightly Favored opponenet, and I am getting my ass kicked. Funny, almost every opponent is a zerg too so far. it's a the point that if I see one more 3 base roach push, I am going to lose it - its really frustrating.
On September 12 2012 12:27 Grimmyman123 wrote: Well, here is the new season.
Anyone else notice that this season is bone crushingly hard? Every match I play is vs a Favored or Slightly Favored opponenet, and I am getting my ass kicked. Funny, almost every opponent is a zerg too so far. it's a the point that if I see one more 3 base roach push, I am going to lose it - its really frustrating.
Everyone starts against Favored/Slightly Favored opponents, that's how points are calculated. It doesn't mean they're better than you.
On September 12 2012 12:27 Grimmyman123 wrote: Well, here is the new season.
Anyone else notice that this season is bone crushingly hard? Every match I play is vs a Favored or Slightly Favored opponenet, and I am getting my ass kicked. Funny, almost every opponent is a zerg too so far. it's a the point that if I see one more 3 base roach push, I am going to lose it - its really frustrating.
Everyone starts against Favored/Slightly Favored opponents, that's how points are calculated. It doesn't mean they're better than you.
So to sum it up.
1. all leagues are like masters league. I.E based on your points. If you are rank 1 with 200 points while another division is rank 1 with 1200 points you will be able to calculate where you are in his league because you will be the same skill as someone with 200 points.
2. at the beginning of the season you will only play favored or slightly favored to help you increase in points. The amount of points you gain depends i believe on your previous rank for last season. That is why someone with only 10 wins can have 300+ points because of their placement last season.
On September 12 2012 12:27 Grimmyman123 wrote: Well, here is the new season.
Anyone else notice that this season is bone crushingly hard? Every match I play is vs a Favored or Slightly Favored opponenet, and I am getting my ass kicked. Funny, almost every opponent is a zerg too so far. it's a the point that if I see one more 3 base roach push, I am going to lose it - its really frustrating.
Everyone starts against Favored/Slightly Favored opponents, that's how points are calculated. It doesn't mean they're better than you.
So to sum it up.
1. all leagues are like masters league. I.E based on your points. If you are rank 1 with 200 points while another division is rank 1 with 1200 points you will be able to calculate where you are in his league because you will be the same skill as someone with 200 points.
2. at the beginning of the season you will only play favored or slightly favored to help you increase in points. The amount of points you gain depends i believe on your previous rank for last season. That is why someone with only 10 wins can have 300+ points because of their placement last season.
Ssssort of.
1. All leagues are like Master league in that the divisions are created one by one, on demand. Points can be compared across divisions (they couldn't previously). Adjusted points (points minus spent bonus pool) will give you a more accurate, skill-based comparison. Obviously someone with 100 points from games + 100 spent bonus pool = 200 points is going to be a little different than someone with 150 points from games + 50 spent bonus pool = 200 points because in the latter case, the player will have more reserve bonus pool meaning higher potential points.
2. The amount of points earned is based on the opponent's MMR compared to your current adjusted points. If your MMR is high then--on average--you face stronger opposition meaning you gain points more rapidly compared to lower-MMR players. This allows players to quickly get to point totals that accurately reflect their skill levels.
I think I also suck really badly, because I've won like 4 matches this season, and lost at least 2 times that. My opponents are kicking my ass. I mean, its one sided hulk smashing, bone crushingly one sided.
I swear to god, if I get demoted down to Gold, I will up and delete this horrid game immediately.
On September 14 2012 02:17 teamhozac wrote: Yeah sure seems like this season is much harder, guess thats what happens when theres not all the nonsense going on with the ranking system
My second account placed diamond because I was inactive with it towards the end of last season. I have been having a pretty easy time trying to get back to masters. I think ive lost 2 games out of 10 to unscouted all ins. One was 3 base baneling and I lost my core before I could get more sentries, then the other was a cannon rush.
I always feel the beginning of the season is generally harder because you face more all ins wherein one mistake in holding it and you lose.
Well I think they really solidified the leagues a lot better this season, I switched races and so I was in gold league but I saw some really good players in there compared to the absolute shit I saw before which is a nice change of scenery
Now, Bronze-Diamond players will be able to use SC2Ranks to know their exact ranking, they can compare themself with others players based on their ladder rating, like we could always do in Master.
Division system is still stupid & useless because of the "first play, first placed". Good players almost always play the first day (or the following) of a season. The more division created, the less skilled these divisions are. Casual players (who play only few games in a season) don't play the first day and are inactive players, at the bottom of new divisions.
A top 8 in a new division would be like top 50 in one of the first divisions.
Blizzard failed with this division system, at least everyone can use SC2Ranks to have a real ranking system now.
On September 14 2012 02:58 Shade_CsT wrote: Here is my summary :
Now, Bronze-Diamond players will be able to use SC2Ranks to know their exact ranking, they can compare themself with others players based on their ladder rating, like we could always do in Master.
Division system is still stupid & useless because of the "first play, first placed". Good players almost always play the first day (or the following) of a season. The more division created, the less skilled these divisions are. Casual players (who play only few games in a season) don't play the first day and are inactive players, at the bottom of new divisions.
A top 8 in a new division would be like top 50 in one of the first divisions.
Blizzard failed with this division system, at least everyone can use SC2Ranks to have a real ranking system now.
Hmmm thats a good point I never thought about that first day of play thing...
Removing the hidden tier system doesn't stop stacked divisions. No problems on my end; I'm not attached to my rank, but the only way that rank can truly correlate with overall league standing is if they constantly rearrange divisions. At that point you'd have to ask what the purpose of having them at all would be.
On September 14 2012 13:52 Mstring wrote: Removing the hidden tier system doesn't stop stacked divisions. No problems on my end; I'm not attached to my rank, but the only way that rank can truly correlate with overall league standing is if they constantly rearrange divisions. At that point you'd have to ask what the purpose of having them at all would be.
Well its not like you play against people just in your division, so as long as youre getting points even if other people in your division are as well you will all eventually get promoted, I dont think this is a problem
On September 14 2012 02:58 Shade_CsT wrote: Here is my summary :
Now, Bronze-Diamond players will be able to use SC2Ranks to know their exact ranking, they can compare themself with others players based on their ladder rating, like we could always do in Master.
Division system is still stupid & useless because of the "first play, first placed". Good players almost always play the first day (or the following) of a season. The more division created, the less skilled these divisions are. Casual players (who play only few games in a season) don't play the first day and are inactive players, at the bottom of new divisions.
A top 8 in a new division would be like top 50 in one of the first divisions.
Blizzard failed with this division system, at least everyone can use SC2Ranks to have a real ranking system now.
Yeah your right. they should just have one division worldwide.
Yeah im 15234050523040 th today!! See how stupid that would be?
Blizzard didnt fail with that system, they had to choose some kind of sample to create something interesting. 100 is good.
I guess I shouldnt have played on the first day . Im getting absolutely smacked down for some reason, last season I was top 2 and playing masters people, now im like 40th and facing the occasional plat player. Slump or the new division system? For the record over my last like 30 games I think ive won 10 and my highest career ranking was like top 50 masters last summer, went on haiatus for awhile and now I suck. Sort of a long winded and weird question but Im getting really discouraged because I have no idea what happened and why I am suddenly so bad.
On September 14 2012 18:26 JuiceBoxHero wrote: I guess I shouldnt have played on the first day . Im getting absolutely smacked down for some reason, last season I was top 2 and playing masters people, now im like 40th and facing the occasional plat player. Slump or the new division system? For the record over my last like 30 games I think ive won 10 and my highest career ranking was like top 50 masters last summer, went on haiatus for awhile and now I suck. Sort of a long winded and weird question but Im getting really discouraged because I have no idea what happened and why I am suddenly so bad.
Im going through the same thing, but I dont think its because we played on the first day, I mean, you play people in other divisions. not just the one youre in, so it shouldnt matter
On September 14 2012 18:26 JuiceBoxHero wrote: I guess I shouldnt have played on the first day . Im getting absolutely smacked down for some reason, last season I was top 2 and playing masters people, now im like 40th and facing the occasional plat player. Slump or the new division system? For the record over my last like 30 games I think ive won 10 and my highest career ranking was like top 50 masters last summer, went on haiatus for awhile and now I suck. Sort of a long winded and weird question but Im getting really discouraged because I have no idea what happened and why I am suddenly so bad.
Who you get matched up with depends purely on your MMR. The leagues, divisions, and all that are just a cosmetic layer on top of that. Blizzard can shuffle the way they setup leagues and divisions all they want, it's not going to affect who you play against. Also, for masters league, nothing changed, since no division-tiers existed there to begin with.
On September 15 2012 08:48 teamhozac wrote: Is sc2ranks ever gonna update the stats page, theyre still on season 5, im very curious to see how many people play what race etc.
It says season 5 but it also says live. It looks like it's actually up to date, just labeled wrong. Note how there's no GM numbers for all the regions except China, where Season 9 hasn't rolled out yet.
On September 15 2012 08:48 teamhozac wrote: Is sc2ranks ever gonna update the stats page, theyre still on season 5, im very curious to see how many people play what race etc.
It says season 5 but it also says live. It looks like it's actually up to date, just labeled wrong. Note how there's no GM numbers for all the regions except China, where Season 9 hasn't rolled out yet.
On September 14 2012 02:17 teamhozac wrote: Yeah sure seems like this season is much harder, guess thats what happens when theres not all the nonsense going on with the ranking system
I don't understand how people can be like "oh, now it's way harder". Who you're playing has not changed at all, it's still the same MMR system. For every game that you (or another person) plays against a player better than them, that player plays somebody worse than them. The system can't be any harder or easier than before, since for every hard game for one person, there's an easy game for someone else. It's a zero sum game.
On September 14 2012 02:17 teamhozac wrote: Yeah sure seems like this season is much harder, guess thats what happens when theres not all the nonsense going on with the ranking system
I don't understand how people can be like "oh, now it's way harder". Who you're playing has not changed at all, it's still the same MMR system. For every game that you (or another person) plays against a player better than them, that player plays somebody worse than them. The system can't be any harder or easier than before, since for every hard game for one person, there's an easy game for someone else. It's a zero sum game.
I said it "seems" harder... my point was that it is much more clear now exaclty where your MMR is because is supposedly coincides better with the point system, or thats what they said on the patch, I think... anyways, what that might mean is that I was ranked too high previously due to discrepancy in points/mmr, if what im saying is at all accurate lol
On September 15 2012 08:48 teamhozac wrote: Is sc2ranks ever gonna update the stats page, theyre still on season 5, im very curious to see how many people play what race etc.
It says season 5 but it also says live. It looks like it's actually up to date, just labeled wrong. Note how there's no GM numbers for all the regions except China, where Season 9 hasn't rolled out yet.
On September 14 2012 02:17 teamhozac wrote: Yeah sure seems like this season is much harder, guess thats what happens when theres not all the nonsense going on with the ranking system
I don't understand how people can be like "oh, now it's way harder". Who you're playing has not changed at all, it's still the same MMR system. For every game that you (or another person) plays against a player better than them, that player plays somebody worse than them. The system can't be any harder or easier than before, since for every hard game for one person, there's an easy game for someone else. It's a zero sum game.
I said it "seems" harder... my point was that it is much more clear now exaclty where your MMR is because is supposedly coincides better with the point system, or thats what they said on the patch, I think... anyways, what that might mean is that I was ranked too high previously due to discrepancy in points/mmr, if what im saying is at all accurate lol
It's not harder to win a game, it's the same. But it will be harder to climb your division rank as a result of the change. However, now your division rank can be ignored and you can use SC2ranks and your points instead.
On September 14 2012 02:17 teamhozac wrote: Yeah sure seems like this season is much harder, guess thats what happens when theres not all the nonsense going on with the ranking system
I don't understand how people can be like "oh, now it's way harder". Who you're playing has not changed at all, it's still the same MMR system. For every game that you (or another person) plays against a player better than them, that player plays somebody worse than them. The system can't be any harder or easier than before, since for every hard game for one person, there's an easy game for someone else. It's a zero sum game.
I said it "seems" harder... my point was that it is much more clear now exaclty where your MMR is because is supposedly coincides better with the point system, or thats what they said on the patch, I think... anyways, what that might mean is that I was ranked too high previously due to discrepancy in points/mmr, if what im saying is at all accurate lol
It's not harder to win a game, it's the same. But it will be harder to climb your division rank as a result of the change. However, now your division rank can be ignored and you can use SC2ranks and your points instead.
On September 16 2012 01:58 BigRedDog wrote: This might be a dumb question..
but what about when you promote to a division where it is not full.
For example, on 4v4, i just promoted from plat to diamond. i was rank #1 in my division because there were only 10 players there.
Right. So, new divisions pop up all the time. And, every league change comes with a point reset (73 + spent bonus pool). Naturally you're not going to be in the top 1% when your points have just been reset, even if you're rank 1 in your new division. That statement only applies to full divisions and even then, only when everyone has spent all their bonus pool (an inactive player with unspent bonus pool isn't going to be a reliable indicator of skill, right?), and even then, only on the average because the skill range in a division is so large and practically random. This is basically where you need SC2Ranks to aggregate the data for all divisions, because the top 100 or 200 or 500 or however many constitute the top X% in SC2Ranks are people who are earning every possible point from skill as well as bonus pool, creating a more accurate (but still not perfect) measure.
On September 19 2012 01:09 Vandrad wrote: So you're going to be rank 1 something which means top 1% But will this be 1% of like gold on your Server or the whole world ?
It's per league per region. Read above for why you can't just apply a hard and fast rule like that, though. Tier removal gives division rank more credit but not enough to equate it to skill necessarily.
Umm, can someone explain to me how does it work? For example, in Season 8, there is a percentile of players you are in, and it said I was in the 3th percent. Then when the new season started, I was in the 96th percentile... (Might also be due the increase of all-ins, cheese, etc). Which was pretty funny because I was fighting the occasional diamond, and my last season 8 match was vs a top diamond who I won.
Here is my graph. I am going to explain what I think I see, so can someone confirm if I am assuming the right things? + Show Spoiler +
http://i.imgur.com/x7A8X.jpg
I have a huge drop in points (blue line right?) and is this common? What is the world rank? Why is there 5297 on the red line, and 9864 at the 1v1 stats. Which is the correct one?
[After some thought] Nevermind, I think I figured out the percentile part. So 3% of 97th percentile to 6% of 94th percentile, is only a slight drop.
On September 19 2012 01:34 Immutant wrote: Umm, can someone explain to me how does it work? For example, in Season 8, there is a percentile of players you are in, and it said I was in the 3th percent. Then when the new season started, I was in the 96th percentile... (Might also be due the increase of all-ins, cheese, etc). Which was pretty funny because I was fighting the occasional diamond, and my last season 8 match was vs a top diamond who I won.
Here is my graph. I am going to explain what I think I see, so can someone confirm if I am assuming the right things? + Show Spoiler +
http://i.imgur.com/x7A8X.jpg
I have a huge drop in points (blue line right?) and is this common? What is the world rank? Why is there 5297 on the red line, and 9864 at the 1v1 stats. Which is the correct one?
[After some thought] Nevermind, I think I figured out the percentile part. So 3% of 97th percentile to 6% of 94th percentile, is only a slight drop.
Oops forgot which thread I was posting in. Anyway...
SC2Ranks pulls data by division periodically and for leagues below Master the polling frequency is reduced. That's why your data says "3 days ago", that's when it was last updated. Secondly, your point drop is a result of a new season because everyone starts at 0 points. Thirdly, the graph plots data points at certain intervals and is not in one-to-one lockstep with the information above, therefore it's primarily useful for watching trends.
The region rank is your rank in points at the time of your last profile snapshot compared to everyone else on the server. The world rank is not directly comparable because the regions are separate and never play each other directly, therefore the point scales can vary from region to region (similar to how FIDE and USCF ratings for chess use the same scale but the ratings themselves aren't comparable because of a lack of direct competition among players).
Oh, thanks for the clarification. I didn't know that everyone started with 0 points, thought that some people with higher tier/mmr would get more points initially.
EPT
), but no new 1v1 maps? Really?
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