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On September 08 2012 00:10 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 22:03 Starshaped wrote:
Bullshit, if they wanted to be transparent they would remove all the eye-candy that is league/rank. Just let me know my MMR, let me know my level, my global rank, whatever, anything but these silly leagues and divisions.
Just make the SC2 ladder like the WC3 ladder, simple and to the point, with profiles showing wins and losses for each race and win percentage as a total and for each race. Then maybe add map win percentages and frequency and other interesting data. Seriously, SC2 fails really hard in so many ways when it comes to online play.
I mean, theres no reason why games ten+ years older than SC2 should have much, MUCH better online experiences. Absolutely agreed. The SC2 ladder system is a convoluted system that currently hides everything that is related to accurately ranking players. It's impossible to compare ranks of 98% of players, there's no win-loss ratio breakdowns, no stats. It treats us like babies, too afraid to see our true ranks for fear it would hurt our feelings and give us ladder anxiety. Ultimately, the current ladder is absolutely pointless, if you can't compare your skill with others in a competitive game, then there is no point in playing a competitive game. That's why I quit SC2 a long time ago. It was pointless, because the ranking system makes to impossible actually rank players. For 2 years, Blizzard has removed and hid more and more stats, even as recently as 1.5. So this is a significant and positive move in the opposite direction, at least points will be comparable across divisions, making a global ladder possible through sites like sc2ranks. The system is still garbage, designed to coddled those who are too fragile to learn of their true rank and have their gameplay stats shown.
Very good posts.
I agree with both of you.
A truly competitive ladder can only be achieved by absolutely transparent ranking. Do it ELO style, Blizzard!
And fuck "ladder anxiety". That is way too overrated.
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On September 08 2012 00:48 WarEagle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 00:35 paralleluniverse wrote:
The reason why the removal of the win ratio was a terribly bad move was not because it's useful, but because it meant that Blizzard will never release these very useful win ratios broken down by these categories, because it would be possible to reconstruct the overall win ratio with it. And that would hurt the fragile feelings of players with ladder anxiety, which is clearly the real reason why win ratios were removed. Browder has said in interviews (regarding HotS) this year that he would like more stats in the game, so I assume they will add that in.....sometime (LotV maybe?). I honestly feel like Blizz has been gradually getting better about listening to the players and giving them what they want; this new ladder season info makes a great point of that. If they want to compete in this market, which has changed dramatically since the BW days (and since the release of WoL, too), they will have to continue making changes like this.
Did Browder really say that? When was this?
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On September 08 2012 01:02 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 00:20 paralleluniverse wrote:
Excal_Z edit: This ladder change is going to mean that all of the leagues will now become just like Master league (except for showing losses). There will still be divisions of 100 players each, but they'll all be equal and therefore no longer apply hidden offsets. Therefore, in an ideal environment with the skill of all players evenly distributed across divisions (meaning you don't have Division 1 with all GSL Code S players and Division 2 with all GSL Code B players) and as long as everyone is spending all their bonus pool, what Blizzard says is accurate: rank 1 would roughly equate to the top 1% of the league.
Incidentally, this is going to make sites like SC2Ranks far more accurate as a means to gauge how you rank among the rest of your league.
Note that promotions will still be determined by MMR, the removal of division tiers only affects the points that are displayed in divisional rankings.
Except it's virtually impossible to get a uniform distribution of skill in all divisions by grouping players into skill quintiles and randomly throwing them into divisions. So what Blizzard says is false. It is only true on average, and only true at the beginning of the season because skill can change over time, whereas divisions don't, unless there's a reset. You can also remove the assumption that players use up their bonus pool. Top 1% of the league, doesn't mean top 1% of skill in the league, it means top 1% of points, which is a hybrid skill+activity measure. You're correct, but I think that will impact the lower leagues less than it does Master. In Master league, the skill gap of players can be very large because Master divisions will include Grandmaster players for the first week. In Gold, it's a lot smaller. Anyone who's outperforming would have been placed in Platinum instead. I suppose we'll have to see how it works out, but I don't know if we'll get the "divisions of death" for which Master is known in the other leagues.
I was saying that Blizzard's statement wasn't strictly correct, but that doesn't matter. Smart people will just ignore divisions and use sc2ranks or points - bonus pool (as long as bonus pool isn't too large). It doesn't matter how skewed divisions are, because we should make people understand, that with this change, divisions can be completely disregarded.
The game would be better if the community pretended that divisions don't exist. And now they can.
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On September 07 2012 10:16 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 10:15 Ribbon wrote:After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth. This is the way it should've worked from the beginning. I'm happy we're getting it. I like the TA changes (because I am Zerg  ), but no new 1v1 maps? Really? probably not on their to do list with HotS and all.. Also, I bet this GM will be easier to get into since I know most pros will be only playing HotS to prepare themselves.
Its not even hard
you literally swap 5 maps with 5 gsl maps and you have a revitalised map pool season for 3 months
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On September 08 2012 01:24 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 10:16 emc wrote:On September 07 2012 10:15 Ribbon wrote:After this change, climbing to (for example) Rank 2 Diamond will mean that you are in the top 2% of all Diamond players, and you are very close to moving into the Master League. Similarly, Rank 50 Platinum is in the top 50% in the Platinum league, and so forth. This is the way it should've worked from the beginning. I'm happy we're getting it. I like the TA changes (because I am Zerg ), but no new 1v1 maps? Really? probably not on their to do list with HotS and all.. Also, I bet this GM will be easier to get into since I know most pros will be only playing HotS to prepare themselves. Its not even hard you literally swap 5 maps with 5 gsl maps and you have a revitalised map pool season for 3 months
Thats the easiest and best solution but were talking about Blizzard here. Lol
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On September 08 2012 01:21 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 00:48 WarEagle wrote:On September 08 2012 00:35 paralleluniverse wrote:
The reason why the removal of the win ratio was a terribly bad move was not because it's useful, but because it meant that Blizzard will never release these very useful win ratios broken down by these categories, because it would be possible to reconstruct the overall win ratio with it. And that would hurt the fragile feelings of players with ladder anxiety, which is clearly the real reason why win ratios were removed. Browder has said in interviews (regarding HotS) this year that he would like more stats in the game, so I assume they will add that in.....sometime (LotV maybe?). I honestly feel like Blizz has been gradually getting better about listening to the players and giving them what they want; this new ladder season info makes a great point of that. If they want to compete in this market, which has changed dramatically since the BW days (and since the release of WoL, too), they will have to continue making changes like this. Did Browder really say that? When was this?
Don't remember exactly, I think it was from MLG when they had an alpha build for people to play against AI. I thought it was a TL interview, not sure though.
But I remember him saying, 'as a random player, I would love to have individual match up stats...'
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Nice one. Looking forward to this.
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On September 08 2012 00:35 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 00:24 WarEagle wrote:
I'm still seeing several people complain about no win/loss info. Has no one noticed that it returned with 1.5??
Not sure how it works for people who play 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 but, I only play 1v1 and it tells me in game how many games I've played this season and how many wins I have (Silver btw). A little math and I have my win/loss %
I guess it's just not obvious enough and it was never announced, which they probably did on purpose. Win ratio is pointless. It's a reflection of how well the matchmaker is, it's not a reflection of your skill. It provides no information about skill, unless you're at the top or bottom where the matchmaker can't always find an equal skilled opponent because the search times would be too long. So working out your win ratio is worthless and pointless. Now, what isn't pointless is win ratio broken down by race, or by map or by game time, or by race by map by game time. The matchmaker makes everyone's win ratio (except at the top and bottom, because of search times) approximately 50%, but that doesn't stop the fact that you may have a 70% win ratio again T, 50% against Z, and 30% against P. And this is very valuable information. The reason why the removal of the win ratio was a terribly bad move was not because it's useful, but because it meant that Blizzard will never release these very useful win ratios broken down by these categories, because it would be possible to reconstruct the overall win ratio with it. And that would hurt the fragile feelings of players with ladder anxiety, which is clearly the real reason why win ratios were removed.
I would love to be able to see my win ratio by race. I played wc3 a long time ago and iirc the ladder would give you that information, along with your over all win stats. It woud be very helpful. I cant think of a reason why this isnt already in the game.
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On September 07 2012 22:38 Iranon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 20:45 boxman22 wrote:On September 07 2012 18:48 speknek wrote:
Although it's a good change, your ranking is still inaccurate and I don't understand why they don't just show your mmr. If it somehow scares off casuals, just put it somewhere hard to find or requestable by a /rating ingame or whatever. I really have no idea why they don't do this. Has Dustin Browder or anyone ever answered why? Yes, they have, several times. It's because your MMR is relatively stable, and they argue that (1) casuals would get their feelings hurt by seeing a quantifiable declaration of how bad they are, and (2) seeing a stable value doesn't motivate casuals to play more, acquiring more meaningless points just for playing does. Big numbers and shiny badges and sparkles hooray!
Like I said.. just make it an extra option or hard to find, so casuals won't get butthurt and the rest can see their rating if they wish too.
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On September 08 2012 01:54 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 00:35 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 08 2012 00:24 WarEagle wrote:
I'm still seeing several people complain about no win/loss info. Has no one noticed that it returned with 1.5??
Not sure how it works for people who play 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 but, I only play 1v1 and it tells me in game how many games I've played this season and how many wins I have (Silver btw). A little math and I have my win/loss %
I guess it's just not obvious enough and it was never announced, which they probably did on purpose. Win ratio is pointless. It's a reflection of how well the matchmaker is, it's not a reflection of your skill. It provides no information about skill, unless you're at the top or bottom where the matchmaker can't always find an equal skilled opponent because the search times would be too long. So working out your win ratio is worthless and pointless. Now, what isn't pointless is win ratio broken down by race, or by map or by game time, or by race by map by game time. The matchmaker makes everyone's win ratio (except at the top and bottom, because of search times) approximately 50%, but that doesn't stop the fact that you may have a 70% win ratio again T, 50% against Z, and 30% against P. And this is very valuable information. The reason why the removal of the win ratio was a terribly bad move was not because it's useful, but because it meant that Blizzard will never release these very useful win ratios broken down by these categories, because it would be possible to reconstruct the overall win ratio with it. And that would hurt the fragile feelings of players with ladder anxiety, which is clearly the real reason why win ratios were removed. I would love to be able to see my win ratio by race. I played wc3 a long time ago and iirc the ladder would give you that information, along with your over all win stats. It woud be very helpful. I cant think of a reason why this isnt already in the game.
The technology just isn't there yet bro...
No but seriously it should be in there, in the meantime you can use SC2 gears to see your win rates and other stats. I do wish it was in the main client like it was in WC3 though. I played random then and those stats were SOOOOO helpful in figuring out what I needed to work on.
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On September 08 2012 01:17 liquidoa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 00:10 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 07 2012 22:03 Starshaped wrote:
Bullshit, if they wanted to be transparent they would remove all the eye-candy that is league/rank. Just let me know my MMR, let me know my level, my global rank, whatever, anything but these silly leagues and divisions.
Just make the SC2 ladder like the WC3 ladder, simple and to the point, with profiles showing wins and losses for each race and win percentage as a total and for each race. Then maybe add map win percentages and frequency and other interesting data. Seriously, SC2 fails really hard in so many ways when it comes to online play.
I mean, theres no reason why games ten+ years older than SC2 should have much, MUCH better online experiences. Absolutely agreed. The SC2 ladder system is a convoluted system that currently hides everything that is related to accurately ranking players. It's impossible to compare ranks of 98% of players, there's no win-loss ratio breakdowns, no stats. It treats us like babies, too afraid to see our true ranks for fear it would hurt our feelings and give us ladder anxiety. Ultimately, the current ladder is absolutely pointless, if you can't compare your skill with others in a competitive game, then there is no point in playing a competitive game. That's why I quit SC2 a long time ago. It was pointless, because the ranking system makes to impossible actually rank players. For 2 years, Blizzard has removed and hid more and more stats, even as recently as 1.5. So this is a significant and positive move in the opposite direction, at least points will be comparable across divisions, making a global ladder possible through sites like sc2ranks. The system is still garbage, designed to coddled those who are too fragile to learn of their true rank and have their gameplay stats shown. Very good posts. I agree with both of you. A truly competitive ladder can only be achieved by absolutely transparent ranking. Do it ELO style, Blizzard! And fuck "ladder anxiety". That is way too overrated.
I guess optimally it would say something like "Your rank is 346 395th out of 573 309 players" or something like that. I guess that absolute value would have some signifigance for some people.
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Blizzard is a fucking joke. Why wasn't this simply implemented at the start of the game? It makes no sense to have hidden rankings among same divisions (not MMR). This just leaves the player clueless as to when he will get promoted or not. For fucks sake, it takes you two years to realize that your ladder system is confusing? Blizzard.......
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So we pretty much will see no difference to our ladder when we view it in-game?
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Hell, It's about time :D
Very glad for this, always seemed like such a bad idea to me.
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On September 08 2012 02:36 Bareleon wrote:
So we pretty much will see no difference to our ladder when we view it in-game?
There will be no difference to the display of the ladder in game no, you can just assume it's a more accurate representation of your skill relative to your league. It won't be perfect because it randomly assigns players to leagues, but it'll be better.
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On September 08 2012 02:14 Kilby wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 01:17 liquidoa wrote:On September 08 2012 00:10 paralleluniverse wrote:On September 07 2012 22:03 Starshaped wrote:
Bullshit, if they wanted to be transparent they would remove all the eye-candy that is league/rank. Just let me know my MMR, let me know my level, my global rank, whatever, anything but these silly leagues and divisions.
Just make the SC2 ladder like the WC3 ladder, simple and to the point, with profiles showing wins and losses for each race and win percentage as a total and for each race. Then maybe add map win percentages and frequency and other interesting data. Seriously, SC2 fails really hard in so many ways when it comes to online play.
I mean, theres no reason why games ten+ years older than SC2 should have much, MUCH better online experiences. Absolutely agreed. The SC2 ladder system is a convoluted system that currently hides everything that is related to accurately ranking players. It's impossible to compare ranks of 98% of players, there's no win-loss ratio breakdowns, no stats. It treats us like babies, too afraid to see our true ranks for fear it would hurt our feelings and give us ladder anxiety. Ultimately, the current ladder is absolutely pointless, if you can't compare your skill with others in a competitive game, then there is no point in playing a competitive game. That's why I quit SC2 a long time ago. It was pointless, because the ranking system makes to impossible actually rank players. For 2 years, Blizzard has removed and hid more and more stats, even as recently as 1.5. So this is a significant and positive move in the opposite direction, at least points will be comparable across divisions, making a global ladder possible through sites like sc2ranks. The system is still garbage, designed to coddled those who are too fragile to learn of their true rank and have their gameplay stats shown. Very good posts. I agree with both of you. A truly competitive ladder can only be achieved by absolutely transparent ranking. Do it ELO style, Blizzard! And fuck "ladder anxiety". That is way too overrated. I guess optimally it would say something like "Your rank is 346 395th out of 573 309 players" or something like that. I guess that absolute value would have some signifigance for some people.
Yeah and they can do it by geography as well "#33542 in NA, #25003 in USA" or some stuff like that, which can encourage short term goals like getting to top 10% of your local region or whatever.
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really wc3 ladder page would have been just perfect, it makes sc2 stats look like a joke. go search a random wc3 profile and find out for yourself of what they are capable of but refuses to use.
anyway is it normal for bonus pool points to not work properly during locked session? I am receiving anywhere from 0 to 5 points instead of full points gained.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
That's an awesome update, they aren't giving us elo or mmr rankings but this will keep me happy!
I'm no longer going to feel false pride from being top 8, I'll know I've earned my place there.
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On September 07 2012 18:15 Dzerzhinsky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 17:34 jinorazi wrote:
so now people can actually say "i'm rank 1 (insert league)" without sounding stupid If it just means that all leagues will work like Master Leage, then they'll still sound stupid. Being rank 1 in Masters definately doesn't mean you're in the top 1% of Masters players.
isn't that what op says? rank 1 = 1%, 2 = 2%...50 = 50% and so on
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EPT
