What's the most solid way to open mech in tvt? TvT is my best matchup, but I've kind of just been winging it because I haven't read anything definitive from a pro player.
So like, I've seen Gumiho go gas first cloakless banshee into double expand, or stc go reactor helion banshee, and forGG go 1/1/1 all in into mech... but they all just seem weird and not something you can standardize for your play.
Also, really wish this was more organized and in depth since it's really the only good place for Terran information atm. Most of your replys to people are "go watch Taeja", with no links to which replay and some of the games you suggest are 4+ months old. There's also a lot more from this thread that could be added into the OP, but it seems like you've given up on that.
I have currently been experimenting with TvZ opening and have been doing 1 gas marine, hellion, medivacs pressure that was popularized by Thorzain and MMA and was wondering if it is still a viable build by current TvZ standard?
On September 14 2012 05:59 smaug81243 wrote: In TVP how do you handle quick 3 nexus openings when opening fairly standard yourself (1-rax expo into 3-rax + tech to medvacs)?
I assume you talk about a 1 gate double expand opening.
1. You need a SCV on the map to know he double expanded; it can be your initial scouting SCV or another if the former died.
2. Once you scout said expand, you should fake pressure, moving out with your Marines to take the Tower; don't commit because you don't know yet if he's going for a massive Gateway timing and you can't afford to lose any troops if he's heading for that; besides, he can reactively warp and easily crush your attack. Still, since he has no Observer out and maybe no Tower depending on the map, he will have to warp some units at home, which will perhaps delay some Gateways or his Twilight Council (the only tech he should be able to afford when going double expand before you move out with your Medivacs). I recommend getting Reactors on Barracks #2 and #3 if you scout his double expand in time as he will be forced to defend with Gateway units only for a long time.
3. If he didn't go for a Gateway timing (things such as 1 gate double expand → 8 gates on Daybreak à la PartinG), you have to use the window corresponding with your first 4 Medivacs to inflict enough damage to at least equalize (or win the game right there, e. g. Polt vs MC on Antiga @ IPL Fight Club (?)). Bear in mind that he shouldn't have a Robotics yet, so without Observers he will be in the dark about where your army is. Be careful though, he might have Blink ready and you don't want your drops to be sniped. Personally, after Medivacs I go up to 5 rax (sometimes with 3 Reactors since he won't have any AoE out yet, so 1-1 Marines en masse shine against unupgraded Gateway units) and pressure him to death, eventually pulling some SCVs to finish him off when I have crippled him enough.
On September 14 2012 19:06 JonIrenicus wrote: Hi Ver, question: two medivac timings in tvp. What's the "strongest" version? When does it hits?
There are mostly two versions, one with 1 Reactor and 2 Tech Labs, the other one with 2 Reactors and 1 Tech Lab. The problem is that you usually can't really know which build the Protoss is heading for, so you can't reactively choose the one which would be the best, and the Protoss can adapt his build order anyway upon scouting 2 Reactors with his Observer (i. e. getting earlier Colossi).
On September 14 2012 21:14 SHODAN wrote: Ver, how do you hold proxy tank with a floating barracks as a spotter in TvT?
It depends on your opening. I assume your problems are with 1 rax FE → 3 rax? When going 1 rax FE → 1-1-1 you can stop this by teching your own Tanks and getting Vikings. I'll let Ver answer for 1 rax FE → 3 rax as I no longer play this, but honestly I think you're in a lot of trouble if you don't scout this as the contain (if you stopped his progression teching Tanks as fast as possible) can quickly become unbreakable and nothing prevents him from expanding behind then retreating when you reach Medivacs.
On September 15 2012 05:11 icedragon wrote: The issue is that once you are on 4 base and maxed, terran has no gas dump
By lategame you should aim at getting 20-30 Ghosts, that's 2k-3k gas just for them (not to mention nukes if you use them). When adding Medivacs and Vikings, you can easily reach 4-5k in gas spent for 150-160 supply armies. I'd say that at this point, minerals are the main problem as the resources ratio is 2:1 for Ghosts and Vikings while you have a reduced SCV count and rely on macro OCs to maintain a steady minerals income. Such armies are gas-heavy, but above all they also require 9-11k minerals and getting here is definitely not easy given how powerful Protoss production and harass are.
Are you a Terran player?
Yes, mid-GM on Europe last two seasons.
On September 15 2012 13:59 xrapture wrote: What's the most solid way to open mech in tvt? TvT is my best matchup, but I've kind of just been winging it because I haven't read anything definitive from a pro player.
So like, I've seen Gumiho go gas first cloakless banshee into double expand, or stc go reactor helion banshee, and forGG go 1/1/1 all in into mech... but they all just seem weird and not something you can standardize for your play.
You can go 1 rax FE → 1-1-1, going Hellions/Banshees if you scout a fast expand from your opponent (e. g. Taeja vs YoDa on Cloud Kingdom @ IPL TAC 3) or Marines/Tanks/Vikings first to handle agression from gas openings before going mech.
(If ForGG transitions to mech it's not all-in... Just because he attacks with Marines, Tanks and Banshees doesn't make it “all-in”.)
On September 15 2012 13:59 xrapture wrote: Also, really wish this was more organized and in depth since it's really the only good place for Terran information atm. Most of your replys to people are "go watch Taeja", with no links to which replay and some of the games you suggest are 4+ months old. There's also a lot more from this thread that could be added into the OP, but it seems like you've given up on that.
Be patient, it takes a lot of time.
On September 15 2012 18:41 NoZyneighbor wrote: I have currently been experimenting with TvZ opening and have been doing 1 gas marine, hellion, medivacs pressure that was popularized by Thorzain and MMA and was wondering if it is still a viable build by current TvZ standard?
Don't bother, Queens will easily crush this and your expand will be too late.
On September 15 2012 13:59 xrapture wrote: What's the most solid way to open mech in tvt? TvT is my best matchup, but I've kind of just been winging it because I haven't read anything definitive from a pro player.
So like, I've seen Gumiho go gas first cloakless banshee into double expand, or stc go reactor helion banshee, and forGG go 1/1/1 all in into mech... but they all just seem weird and not something you can standardize for your play.
Also, really wish this was more organized and in depth since it's really the only good place for Terran information atm. Most of your replys to people are "go watch Taeja", with no links to which replay and some of the games you suggest are 4+ months old. There's also a lot more from this thread that could be added into the OP, but it seems like you've given up on that.
Way to be ungrateful. He's offering a free service and owes nothing to you. Sometimes the only demonstrative games are 4+ months old. No links? OP not updated? Don't be lazy and find the games/answers by yourself. You're not entitled to anything.
On September 15 2012 13:59 xrapture wrote: What's the most solid way to open mech in tvt? TvT is my best matchup, but I've kind of just been winging it because I haven't read anything definitive from a pro player.
So like, I've seen Gumiho go gas first cloakless banshee into double expand, or stc go reactor helion banshee, and forGG go 1/1/1 all in into mech... but they all just seem weird and not something you can standardize for your play.
Also, really wish this was more organized and in depth since it's really the only good place for Terran information atm. Most of your replys to people are "go watch Taeja", with no links to which replay and some of the games you suggest are 4+ months old. There's also a lot more from this thread that could be added into the OP, but it seems like you've given up on that.
Way to be ungrateful. He's offering a free service and owes nothing to you. Sometimes the only demonstrative games are 4+ months old. No links? OP not updated? Don't be lazy and find the games/answers by yourself. You're not entitled to anything.
That's bullshit. How many people are given warnings or bans on this site for offering a free service that TL doesn't find up to par? A few posts before me someone got warned for "giving bad advice"and people that fail to update LR threads get warned/banned all the time.
The thread title says "Pro Terran Strategy Q/A", not "very good compared to most of you Terran Strategy Thread" but I haven't seen a pro answer a question in this thread yet.
Seriously, open up the spoilers in the OP and look how little content there actually is. Sending you off to a Taeja replay with no analyzation isn't exactly helpful.
This first line of the OP is: "one-stop destination for any Terran player in need of high level advice." And currently this is far, far from that. Teamliquid has high standards, but is extremely bias-- something that makes it unique from other websites. So if you are friends with this guy I apologize and understand why you reacted in a way very unfair to a lot of people chastised on this site.
On September 15 2012 21:31 xrapture wrote: That's bullshit. How many people are given warnings or bans on this site for offering a free service that TL doesn't find up to par? A few posts before me someone got warned for "giving bad advice"and people that fail to update LR threads get warned/banned all the time..
Your entire reply screams of entitlement and idiocy, on a level I can't even comprehend. Getting warned for bad(incorrect) advice and failing to update LRs(when other people can do it) are completely different matters. This advice is neither bad, nor can someone else just pick up and do it.
The thread title says "Pro Terran Strategy Q/A", not "very good compared to most of you Terran Strategy Thread" but I haven't seen a pro answer a question in this thread yet.
Ver has already explained his credentials. If you don't think this classifies him as a pro, then don't post here. No one's forcing you to.
Seriously, open up the spoilers in the OP and look how little content there actually is. Sending you off to a Taeja replay with no analyzation isn't exactly helpful.
Just because he hasn't been updating the OP every single day means it's bad? Look through this thread to see how much he's answered.... He's in no way forced to even move everything to the OP just as he's not forced to even answer any questions in the thread. I already explained the "watch Taeja replays" comment which you seemed to conveniently ignore....
This first line of the OP is: "one-stop destination for any Terran player in need of high level advice." And currently this is far, far from that. Teamliquid has high standards, but is extremely bias-- something that makes it unique from other websites. So if you are friends with this guy I apologize and understand why you reacted in a way very unfair to a lot of people chastised on this site.
So here I like how you apologize and subtly make a jab at me in the same sentence. It's not bias, it's more that you're trying to compare apples to oranges, as I already responded to a few paragraphs up. Ver is providing an excellent and rare free service that very few people with the necessary knowledge are willing to spend their time with. He has contributed both to TL and to the strategy forums more than pretty much everyone else here with just this one thread. Yet you don't seem to be bashing any of the other of the strategy threads or strategy contributors. As I said before, if you think this thread isn't good enough, just don't post. Leave. But then again...
it's really the only good place for Terran information atm
you even admit it's the best place to get Terran advice and yet you still keep bashing it?
On September 15 2012 18:41 NoZyneighbor wrote: I have currently been experimenting with TvZ opening and have been doing 1 gas marine, hellion, medivacs pressure that was popularized by Thorzain and MMA and was wondering if it is still a viable build by current TvZ standard?
Don't bother, Queens will easily crush this and your expand will be too late.
I was actually talking about the one where you get a expo first, and get an reactor on both the rax and fact, the 8 marine 6 hellion 1 medivac push thorzain did against DRG at dreamhack Valencia on Tal'darim. I am pretty sure the answer is going to be the same, but still wanted to confirm nonetheless.
A second question I have is that would skipping the cloak for the banshees as the 200/200 could be spent on other stuff, or would cloakshees be a better investment in the hellion/banshee harrass? Nvm on the second question found the answer searching through the thread.
On September 11 2012 02:28 NewbieOne wrote: Ver, thank you for your kind answer. It reflects credit on what you said that what you give to it is what you get from it. If you don't mind, I'd ask some more stuff in connection but please note that if you can't or don't feel like devoting the time (it's quite long), then that's okay, I wouldn't like to abuse your courtesy or take up too much of your time. I'll spoilerise the more potentially personal stuff to avoid forcing it on anybody else. Writing more at length in order to avoid being ambiguous.
1) Thorzain's TvT build works perfectly fine in TvP as it is just an optimization of the standard opening. I think he began using it in both matchups at the same time. It is bad in TvZ because it fits in the 'scoutable 2 base timing attack' mold which auto loses to any competent Zerg.
Could you recommend a newbie-friendly mental checklist of sorts to make an approximate decision that a certain build designed to work against one race could work against another and be worth testing out? I'm mostly thinking about TvP <=> TvZ transferrability here (because I see TvT as being more different) but yeah, also TvT <=> TvX in some situations. Like here, with Thorzain TvT, I knew it relied on getting a bunch of marines like it's generally good to have in TvP, similar medivac timing as in some TvP, having 1-2 tanks isn't bad, just old style, so I thought I'd ask you about it to make sure it's worth trying. So, I see you confirming it through extensive knowledge (Thorzain used it in both matchups at the same time) + game-sense (a streamlined classification of the build as being effectively a somewhat optimised standard opening in light of the million other builds). I don't have comparable knowledge, obviously, but are there some identifiable clues (e.g. focal points) you could name that a player newer to the game should still be able to identify if he's aware of what he's looking for?
3) If you want a bludgeon type marine/thor/hellion build, I highly suggest the build Marineking has used on Metropolis (and entombed) in his TvZs in the past 3 months (from KSL finals vs curious is one example). This build feels gimmicky though when I've used it because if they just turtle bl/infestor/queen you can't really break them and you have barely 1 timing attack before they have broods. On a larger map you don't have even that, and when broods are out your chances of winning goes down drastically unless they commit too early instead of turtling for critical mass.
Yes, my point with that BO/unit mix/overall gameplan is either to gimp the Zerg to the point of making his further growth manageable (enabling me to outmacro him), or if he opts for non-aggression but can't really be attacked himself either without making it too much of a gamble, then outrace him to the point that when he gets out that first round of broodlords two minutes after his hive, at which point I'm likely already maxed, 3/3 and pushing, he still can't compete with my army/econ. According to Day9, hive should come about 17 minutes plus one minute per each push, maybe 15 if he gets totally a free hand with everything. Then greater spire takes 100 seconds and a broodlord takes 40. By that time (including the lean 17 minutes timing to first broodlords) I'm probably maxed on 3/3 and ready to take a late third or even fourth behind the push/defence (so this is very similar to a 2-base all-in or at least a 2-base timing push).
Then, if I get caught up in fighting somewhere en route to whatever I want destroyed, I simply get myself more factories (deeming it safer than a risky tech switch to ports, vikings and air upgrades), more bases to support them (basically planting expos everywhere, cancelling or flying away if needed, defending if expedient, PFs if having gas and not needing to reinforce or build factories), farm plenty of SCVs to be able to drag about 20 or more with each subsequent major push, mules if SCVs (and hellions) die but I'd still like to push on to cash in on the opportunity to win outright or do substantial damage. I use hellions to fry broodlings or zerglings (sitting behind thors in such a situation), make some crowd (to avoid concave/numbers problems) or otherwise deal as much splash damage as possible (kinda like in TvP people use them against packs of immortals) and be a filler when the mass of thors is not critical (enough), upping or reducing the number of hellions vis-a-vis thors as necessary in light of my approximation of what seems better in the current situation (or how much gas I have, TBH, sometimes).
If I end up with excess minerals but can't spare the gas for more factories due to the constant production of thors, which I don't want to interrupt for even a second (unless I'm really forced to base-camp), and expanding isn't really possible or viable ATM (or there is still a surplus of minerals anyway),then I get some raxes and marines to pull marine packs behind the mech pushes to use them for appropriate task, to phase out the hellions if the marines seem to work out better, but mostly to just remax faster (esp. vs Zerg's remaxing potential) and to be able to keep drilling.
So this is the reason why I don't get the ports: they'd interrupt and disturb my comfortable rhythm (with the 150/100 apiece plus addons plus upgrades), delay my favourite timings, take away some windows of opportunity I'm used to (not enough stuff to push with/defend a counterpush or expand), add some windows to the Zerg (esp. when I don't have the same defensive strength due to getting the air at the time, or forcing me to reveal too much to him), force me to use unupgraded stuff (whereas any effectiveness this build has hinges on the synergy of upgrades) etc. but most of all delaying me to the point that the Zerg will be able to farm more broodlords than I want him to have (and I want to kill or cripple him preferably when he has already committed funds but still can't reap the full benefit of his investment). I'd only really go for ports if I ended up with a massive gas bank, which would be extremely rare. I'd basically never really have the window to start making ports and vikings anyway with the mentality of this build.
Using this game plan I very rarely fall to broodlords if at all (I can think of about 1 situation of losing a game in consequence of losing a major engagement featuring broodlords). That would generally require a massive blunder from me (basically one where I'm dead anyway; used to include failure to bring enough repair along, failure to bring more assist along or make it survive, failure to reinforce sufficiently fast but these have all been worked out eventually) or a massively good move from the Zerg (but I've yet to see more than a dozen broodlords alive and in one pack with this type of drilling), usually connected to him outmacroing me rather than anything to do with the engagement itself (so I'm likely similarly dead anyway), as he can't really afford to be herding big packs of broodlords at the edge of the map.
So... is it likely that on higher levels, where both the Zerg and I (will) have better/more fluid skills, better control, faster execution, better scouting, more game-sense and more active or at least properly responsive way of playing, the Zerg will easily negate this strategy? As in my game plan here having a lower skill cap than whatever the Zerg would or could use to counter it? Or relying too much on windows of opportunity that only the less skilled Zerg players create but not the more skilled ones (assuming the Zerg is not significantly more skilled than the Terran)?
Also, could I make a TvP build out of this one, with some modifications but using the same principles?
4) I have been in a somewhat similar position, as I am going for my phd while playing competitively. This really depends on what level you want to get to.
I don't really have a specific level to get to as in this or that league or tournament scene level but in WC3: TFT I was at the point where I was several ladder levels under the top 1000 of the Europe server (I was level 26). A person even registering for tournaments with any credibility would still win a convincing majority of games through mechanics/general dexterity (including a guy I'd coached), although I could still be the more experienced player, which could show in some situations ("don't quit! this 2v2 can still be won if we..."). New rising talents would be somewhat scared of me, more than needed, but they'd invariably have overlapped me after a while of getting coached by the gosus from the best clans. Any ladder game would be a likely win if dragged beyond 17-20 and especially 40 minutes, let alone 1 hour, most deaths being mid-game doom pushes playing up to situational racial/map strengths. The difference from real gosus was that they had more production within the same time-frame when freestyling.
Most of all that I miss from my current skill level in SC2 vis-a-vis how things were in WC3 is that in WC3 I could do all the cute things like teleporting through every expansion on the map using spy critters previously planted as decoys, militia-teleporting to help a besieged ally after losing all our armies in a battle just before, or militia defence of a base with 3/3 militia (as the side effect of 3/3 melee upgrades) and a couple of support casters alone, going without barracks when feeling like it (e.g. a totally caster only composition), beating a numerically superior army off of sheer micro (when being tired and getting sloppy with production timings, punishing the other guy for making more melee units than he could manage or benefit from having), killing a night elf base with his entire army in it with 60-80 gyrocopters in an FFA, gimping an opponent early game by killing/denying his supply buildings for a prolonged time (I guess this is similar to pylon busting with early marauders when you add on more stuff but leave his workers alone unless they're making more pylons, so as not to free up supply for him), dedicated main hall busting, or delaying your own production a bit to scout and guess the other guy and only then come up with a massively bad situational counter, having like 4 hotkeyed research buildings, and other such stuff that was supposedly not doable or few people ever thought about doing.
I'd basically like to get to the same "level" in SC2, not necessarily higher than it but not really stopping there on purpose, either. And yeah, analogies to the examples I gave above are obviously impossible in SC2 or involve a different race than Terran but they are just examples and I'm only talking about the ability to do that type of stuff and get away with it, i.e. not be forevered tied up in the same old low league due to the resulting high loss ratio when things don't work out. So, playing convincingly with one's own ideas (as opposed to only copying popular builds), being able to adapt the game to one's own style (like Goody did), losing to relatively few people in the local scene (e.g. a European country or a state in the USA), even when still being around 50% on the MMR-based ladder because there is, after all, still a crowd of better players continent-wide. From that point, I could perhaps sit down and decide if I wanted to take it further and commit seriously (depending on my family or job situation etc.) or keep playing like this with only the improvement that comes as a side effect of playing or watching more games and reading discussions on the forums.
The most important thing is to watch enough games that you know what to do and to play a little bit every day or 5-6 days a week so you can keep your skill. I have been forced to take a month or two off at a time due to school and my skill level plummets when I do; it takes another month or two to get back to my old level or higher (of playing maybe 20-25 hrs a day).
Thanks. I know what you're talking about, except my breaks are longer and the 20 hour days of playing are rarer. I've thought about massing those marathon days to force a skill bump or even doing pure marine builds (with normal SCV production and expanding, though, and marauders added when obviously needed) just to force myself to play faster through not being distracted by any on-the-fly thinking, planning etc. What would you think about this idea?
Grinding ladder games is a long term solution, not a short one, and is only worthwhile if your theoretical knowledge is pristine AND you pour over every replay. My results often drop briefly when playing more than 4 hours a day for longer than a couple days.
Hmm... Well, I certainly played worse at the end of some marathons than at the beginning of them, too, (with some lost points to recover on the following day) wonder if this is just the momentary tiredness (plus the cyclical nature of winning and losing in a system which wants you to be exactly at 50%) or if it can have a lasting detrimental effect on one's skill, what would you say from your experience?
I would personally recommend a three step procedure:
1) Watch enough top kor pro games in each matchup to gain a strong idea of what you should be doing. Revisit them every week or so to match up your play with theirs and see what is different. 2) Practice your build orders on a map alone and practice specific micro on a micro map. Always do this in your first game of the day. 3) Play the people who are much better over and over, alternating this occasionally with ladder.
Thanks, #1-2 looks great and intuitively very much like what I'd like to be doing (watching a million games helps me tone down the anxiety and feel like the map is my playground again plus I learn some useful stuff). Especially the part about not starting off with ladder games but some other warm-up (not like this is what matters the most but such a warm-up could prevent a couple of avoidable losses). I've occasionally thought about grinding custom games or the more forgiving but still scaled team ladder games to catch up on mechanics (my current most likely cause of death barring several cheeses that I can't counter too well yet) and get a better general sense of the game and my own style before going solo, too (I had started as a team player WC3 but it taught me some habits that caused death in 1v1 due to reliance on situational bailout by an ally being built into my gameply), especially as team play is more forgiving of individual stumbles and the responsibility for a loss is more distributed and less serious anyway, so then I could play team when being tired or unable to focus, what do you think?
#3 is gonna be tough, I remember doing that in WC3 and feeling awful due to how long it took to start not losing 10:0 (vs a guy I'd coached before, what a shame ). The problem is not even the ego effect of losing, though, but the uncertainty as to whether some invisible progress is being made or it's a pointless experience in losing. In this connection, do you think it would be better to go through some kind of rigorous mechanics training schedule first before finding a good player to train with, in order to have a clearer vision of this?
Also, what are some typical learning curves if any, is it typically/generally faster to go from, say, 9:1 to 7:3 than it was from 10:0 to 9:1 with the same player (coach)?
Thank you for your time! GL HF in your games.
-The best way for lower level players to determine a builds worth is to see top pros consistently winning with it. Each matchup has its own logic, and the gameplan even for the same build is vastly different in each matchup. Therefore I don't think you should be approaching this as a 'hmm which build can I use in more than one matchup' but seeing what really works consistently in each matchup.
-Yeah your game plan is limited to lower levels, where Zerg is really crippled mechanically. At the highest level, Zerg creep spread will be so great, even when limited by hellion/banshee, that you won't be able to kill them before they get hive units generally. The best you can do is kill their fourth, reduce their creep, and bleed them enough that they cannot max out on hive units for some time. Then you can keep trading before they get that critical mass. See Taeja/Revival on Entombed from MLG Raleigh.
-If you are on two bases, the Zerg doesn't even need to hive rush. He will simply kill you with a lair army whenever you move out on creep, or just backstab, because you have no econ to replenish your forces. When you do a normal 3 base build and take your 4th at your 2-2 push or slightly after, you'll have plenty of money to transition into what is needed. In TvP this 2 base allin play is possible, though in most cases rather archaic. I suggest Supernova/Hasuobs on Ohana, MVP/whichever protoss in his group on Ohana from IEM, and Taeja/Genius from TL qualifier finals.
-If you mass game following a prolonged break, you can actually expect to see worse results for awhile. You should never be doing a different build than you would be in a real game (i,e pure marine builds or w/e). You get better by practicing the right thing over and over again. Playing marathon sessions without rest will naturaly degrade your play over hte course of the day; rest/exercise is really important throughout. I typically will do 5 or so pushups after each game.
-As for learning curves...there is too much situational here. All I know is that it's easier to improve from bronze/silv/gold to NA/EU high masters/ low gm than it is to go from gm to top tier pro level nowadays because of the sheer refinement necessary to compete.
On September 14 2012 05:59 smaug81243 wrote: In TVP how do you handle quick 3 nexus openings when opening fairly standard yourself (1-rax expo into 3-rax + tech to medvacs)?
It depends how quickly you see this. If you spot it right away you can go for an ultra fast upgrade rush 5 rax mass marine timing, either very fast 2-2 or a slower but faster rax 1-1. Dwf's solution also works, though naturally both of these are very tricky (you are on the losing end of the build order battle here regardless). You can also attempt to outmicro them right away ala Marineking vs Jangbi on Antiga, but this requires you to be much better than them.
Last option that works on certain maps (i,e Daybreak, possibly cloud kingdom) is going 3 rax fact stim and pushing with 3 siege tanks/medivac/+1. If he does Parting build he'll get smashed, and if he does some greedy tech build you should be able to punish because he'll be trying to hold the push with slow zealots and gateway units.. Just make sure you target fire the guardian shield sentry with the tanks and you're golden.
On September 14 2012 21:14 SHODAN wrote: Ver, how do you hold proxy tank with a floating barracks as a spotter in TvT?
For 3 rax tech, If they set up outside your bunker as soon as siege mode finishes (with 1 or 2 tanks) then you can pull most of your scvs and 1a through. Because he invested in a proxy rax to float he will have less units than normal and will not be able to hold.
If he delays pushing until 3 tanks (most won't) you should be able to stall long enough to either base trade or set up a large flank with stim/combat/medivacs +1. If he makes a lot of bunkers the flank becomes less attractive but the base trade will work; you can just ferry your units outside of your main with the second set of medivacs and just lift off elsewhere; if you kill his cc and keep yours he can't win because your army will beat him on the open field and you have 2 cc's while he has only a few scvs and has to make one from scratch.
On September 14 2012 21:29 graNite wrote: In Tvp Lategame (3+ Bases) I often have overgas. What is a good way to spend it? Ghosts require so many minerals, the only gas dump I know would be ravens, but they are really hard to transition to and I dont really think HSM can kill a toss army...
Ghosts are generally the accepted gas dump and will use up all your gas until your initial 3 bases run dry. However, I don't particularly like pure ghost/marine (marauders are bad naturally) because of how fragile it is and how any slight miscontrol will lose you the game.
Ravens are generally horrific because of feedback. The ideal lategame transition is battlecruisers, which will certainly use up all of your gas. You just have to accept that Protoss armies are more efficient than Terran armies and rely on brute force to win every battle. Bio/medivac/viking/battlecruiser will auto win any fight as you kite away from their zealots, then return to assist the battlecruisers with cleanup. You don't want to make MVP's mistake of neglecting marines, as otherwise a void ray transition becomes possible. I suggest Ryung vs Tassadar and Sangho on Daybreak. They're old games but people rarely reach this stage and tvp rarely evolves so they are still quite valid. Another point to keep in mind is that you should be emp'ing your BC's before major engagements, as they are poor if feedbacked.
Alternatively on some maps (shakuras/taldarim), you can transition into reaper/nukes and just harass them to death, using those two tools to open the way for mass drops while turtling behind planetaries. See Thorzain vs Crank on Shakuras, from I believe EGMCSL, if not then NASTL, Mouz/Slayers ace match.
On September 15 2012 04:05 kollin wrote: When I do the MVP mech build what is the correct respone to quick 3 base hive? I have tried pumping thor hellion viking but my opponent just overruns me with infestor broodlord, because I can't get the money to expand doing that? Is there something else I should be doing?
MVP mech is not hellion thor viking. MVP mech is mass tanks. If he goes only 3 base hive he's not going to have the resources to stop your pre-broodlord attack. Your goal is to force him to trade as much as possible before he gets broods, thus limiting the amount of infestor/brood he can actually have. You should always have the money to keep expanding with mech and if he is not being really aggressive with roach/muta you should be taking a 4th quickly. If he is going ling/infestor and really rushing hive, you actually should not be hellion harassing, but instead massing them up as once you get a critical mass of hellions his lings are worse than useless.
On September 15 2012 13:59 xrapture wrote: What's the most solid way to open mech in tvt? TvT is my best matchup, but I've kind of just been winging it because I haven't read anything definitive from a pro player.
So like, I've seen Gumiho go gas first cloakless banshee into double expand, or stc go reactor helion banshee, and forGG go 1/1/1 all in into mech... but they all just seem weird and not something you can standardize for your play.
Also, really wish this was more organized and in depth since it's really the only good place for Terran information atm. Most of your replys to people are "go watch Taeja", with no links to which replay and some of the games you suggest are 4+ months old. There's also a lot more from this thread that could be added into the OP, but it seems like you've given up on that.
rax cc into reactor hellion cloak banshee is solid. See Forgg/Taeja on Daybreak from Asus semis. In general there are a lot of ways to transition depending on what you want to open with. gas first banshee expo, rax gas cloak expo, etc. But any way you go about it you end up with 3 facts, a reactored port, an armory, and a 3rd cc starting after all that. I tend to find banshees not particularly good with mech unless they are going bio/tank or the other guy is mech.
Are you volunteering to organize? It's a lot of busywork, and something has to be triaged. Rest assured it will get updated, but when and how often I cannot say.
On September 15 2012 18:41 NoZyneighbor wrote: I have currently been experimenting with TvZ opening and have been doing 1 gas marine, hellion, medivacs pressure that was popularized by Thorzain and MMA and was wondering if it is still a viable build by current TvZ standard?
I was actually talking about the one where you get a expo first, and get an reactor on both the rax and fact, the push thorzain did against DRG at dreamhack Valencia. I am pretty sure the answer is going to be the same, but still wanted to confirm nonetheless.
Yeah queens will bash it sadly, or roaches if they bother to build them. Out of date.
On September 14 2012 21:14 SHODAN wrote: Ver, how do you hold proxy tank with a floating barracks as a spotter in TvT?
For 3 rax tech, If they set up outside your bunker as soon as siege mode finishes (with 1 or 2 tanks) then you can pull most of your scvs and 1a through. Because he invested in a proxy rax to float he will have less units than normal and will not be able to hold.
If he delays pushing until 3 tanks (most won't) you should be able to stall long enough to either base trade or set up a large flank with stim/combat/medivacs +1. If he makes a lot of bunkers the flank becomes less attractive but the base trade will work; you can just ferry your units outside of your main with the second set of medivacs and just lift off elsewhere; if you kill his cc and keep yours he can't win because your army will beat him on the open field and you have 2 cc's while he has only a few scvs and has to make one from scratch
This isn't the answer I expected. If my opponent pushes with 1 tank in tank mode, he can outrange the bunker (the barracks granting vision). Let's say I go 3rax tech and throw down a bunker, uncertain of what my opponent is doing with his gas. I would have about 10 marines and a bunker. Now grant that the spotting barracks allows my opponent to spot a heavy SCV pull in advance. If I pull SCVs at this moment, my opponent can kite back with 6-8 marines and a tank.
Next comes tank #2. At this point my opponent has enough gas to begin a starport and produce tanks. Knowing that I'm on 3rax tech, he can continue to keep his 2 tanks in tank mode, pressure my bunker, and kite back if I pull SCVs. Rinse/repeat. Next comes tank #3. Now my opponent either has a viking or a banshee for vision ---> he can land the spotting barracks to produce even more marines. 3 tanks is that critical mass that just melts an SCV/marine pull. Keep in mind I've already lost a lot of minerals repairing the bunker. I may also be down on SCVs if I tried to pull them against tanks in tank mode. The extremely close rally distance makes proxy tank so much deadlier than a straight up 1-1-1, and part of the reason why it is impossible to hold with 3rax tech.
Your answer is interesting because in TvT, many foreign terran pros still go 3rax tech. Thorzain made this style extremely popular. But do you really think it can hold everything, even the most sophisticated cheese like proxy tank or reaper/hellion drop? The TvT metagame in Korea seems to be: if you go 1 rax gasless FE and scout a gas opening from your opponent, you should immediately double gas, build the CC in your main for safety, reactor on rax, and rush to factory/starport ---> hold with hellions, vikings or tanks. My question was more like, how should I hold proxy tank with gas units, either with my own tanks, or with banshees, or with early reapers in his base?
The one time I went proxy tank in an important match was vs. SlayersMiso, who outcheesed me with proxy hellion/banshees. We traded all our SCVs down to 0, but I killed his command center and floated mine away. When we finally engaged, he suicided his hellions for most of my marines, and the banshee did the rest. First time playing a korean pro, I was nervous; I gg'd without realizing that, because he had no depots (no viking), I could have went for a draw with my CC. Good experience anyway ^.^
On September 17 2012 03:53 SHODAN wrote: This isn't the answer I expected. If my opponent pushes with 1 tank in tank mode, he can outrange the bunker (the barracks granting vision).
So? He can't kill the Bunker without Siege because you just repair until you get your first Marauder. He doesn't have any real threat before Siege which can be completed at ~6'05 at the earliest. You can start your Factory by this mark and have Siege Mode completed at, say, ~8'30 if you use one of your Barracks to make a Tech Lab for your Factory. I think you can stall for two minuts (second Tank comes out of his proxy Factory at ~6'20 at the earliest) to get said Tanks repairing your Bunkers, retreating, etc. This is how I tried to handle it the only time I faced it some months ago; I had to retreat to my main but I got Sieged Tanks in time to stop him from going up my main ramp. I don't like this approach as he's free to expand and have a macro game behind it since he has a contain and damaged you, but if your opponent makes a Bunker straight away (at the bottom of your natural's ramp if there is one) and pulls 4-5 SCVs to repair it, I'm not sure you can break the contain efficiently with Marines/SCVs. I saw ForGG try 5 rax Marines/Marauders against Satiini on Ohana, but he had to give too many SCVs to break free and Cloak Banshees eventually finished him.
On September 17 2012 03:53 SHODAN wrote: Let's say I go 3rax tech and throw down a bunker, uncertain of what my opponent is doing with his gas. I would have about 10 marines and a bunker. Now grant that the spotting barracks allows my opponent to spot a heavy SCV pull in advance. If I pull SCVs at this moment, my opponent can kite back with 6-8 marines and a tank.
Next comes tank #2. At this point my opponent has enough gas to begin a starport and produce tanks. Knowing that I'm on 3rax tech, he can continue to keep his 2 tanks in tank mode, pressure my bunker, and kite back if I pull SCVs. Rinse/repeat.
That doesn't make sense. Hitting your Bunker with unsieged Tanks doesn't threaten anything. The only threat he has comes from Sieged Tank(s) with the lifted Barracks giving him vision of your repairing SCVs so he can safely blast them with his Tank(s), eventually forcing you to retreat to another Bunker behind until he can progress enough to force your natural to lift, etc. Wasting precious seconds or minuts to harmlessly pound on your Bunker with unsieged Tanks while he could Siege or revealing his first proxy Tank before Siege Mode is complete doesn't make any sense, really. Part of the trick about this opening is Marines take your Tower—you don't fight for this Tower because you don't want to be caught in the open by possible Hellions—then suddenly 1 or 2 Sieged Tanks are hitting your Bunker. Attacking your Bunker with his first unsieged Tank will only give away his strategy, giving you more time to prepare your own Tanks and make a second Bunker behind the first that is bound to fall.
On September 17 2012 03:53 SHODAN wrote: My question was more like, how should I hold proxy tank with gas units, either with my own tanks, or with banshees, or with early reapers in his base?
Tanks are your best bet. Banshees take too long to get and he will build Vikings anyway at some point, and you need your Tech Lab Barracks for Marauders (and his Barracks is not proxied, so he can fend off your Reapers with his Marines produced at home).
I fell in love with Byun's TvZ build he did against Nestea during the GSL quarterfinals and have been consistently using it, but since I do not end up getting cloak for the banshee would it be a good idea to delay the 2nd gas until you build the starport in order to get a faster 3rd cc since you can still do the initial part of the build with one gas, or would following the exact build be a better idea and just use the extra gas and mineral from not getting clock and putting it in something else such as stim or +1/+1.
Since by delaying the 2nd gas you would get about 100 mineral more per min allowing you to get the 3rd cc a lot sooner at around 5:30~5:35, but your starport would be delayed by a couple of secs due to being short ~20 gas since of the addition of the reactor.
Are you volunteering to organize? It's a lot of busywork, and something has to be triaged. Rest assured it will get updated, but when and how often I cannot say.
I actually will volunteer to do that, if you want.
I was wondering what was your opinion of Bomber's TvZ build he did against DRG in GSL season 4 group H, in which he forgoes the hellion/banshee harass, instead opts for really fast 3 cc and go for a big marine tank push at around ~11:30 consisting of ~60 marine, 4 tanks, and 1 medivac with +1/+1.
Even though the zerg is left to its own devices, it hits at an early time than the regular ~13min +2/+2 push and still hits pretty hard especially when most zerg theses days will probably not be ready for it.
While it is very vulnerable in the beginning as you will suffer lots of damage or just straight up die to a 7:10 roach/ling or the ~9 min roach/bane/ling all ins
Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it).
I'd like to know two things:
1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be?
2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout?
Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best.
Great Thread! Is it better to get Stim or Combat Shield first in TvT? I thought CS was better, but I notice a lot of Korean Terran in the GSL going for stim first. What are your thoughts?
On September 20 2012 01:02 Kasu wrote: Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it).
I'd like to know two things:
1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be?
2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout?
Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best.
In order to defend against a quick siege tank push: You need to have your marines out on the map. As you pointed out if he sieges up at your natural you are screwed! You want to try and keep making him siege and unsiege when he moves out so you have time to get your own siege tech up or drop/ outmaneuver him. Hope this helps. GLHF
On September 20 2012 01:02 Kasu wrote: Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it).
I'd like to know two things:
1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be?
2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout?
Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best.
In order to defend against a quick siege tank push: You need to have your marines out on the map. As you pointed out if he sieges up at your natural you are screwed! You want to try and keep making him siege and unsiege when he moves out so you have time to get your own siege tech up or drop/ outmaneuver him. Hope this helps. GLHF
Thanks, very helpful! Scouting it early and slowing it/killing it before it can reach my base seems to be the universal response.
If you did the expo into 3 rax combat shield then you can pull a couple scvs for buffer and meet him before he can siege, or if you opened 1 rax fe double gas then you should be able to delay his push long enough with a repaired bunker, that you will be able to get out your own siege tank and Viking to ward him off.
On September 20 2012 01:02 Kasu wrote: Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it).
I'd like to know two things:
1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be?
2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout?
Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best.
In order to defend against a quick siege tank push: You need to have your marines out on the map. As you pointed out if he sieges up at your natural you are screwed! You want to try and keep making him siege and unsiege when he moves out so you have time to get your own siege tech up or drop/ outmaneuver him. Hope this helps. GLHF
Thanks, very helpful! Scouting it early and slowing it/killing it before it can reach my base seems to be the universal response.
Am i the only one thinking this might actually apply here?
It's a good, detailed guide about how you can stall him till you have stim+medivacs.
EPT
). The problem is not even the ego effect of losing, though, but the uncertainty as to whether some invisible progress is being made or it's a pointless experience in losing. In this connection, do you think it would be better to go through some kind of rigorous mechanics training schedule first before finding a good player to train with, in order to have a clearer vision of this?
