[!] Pro Terran Strategy Q/A - Page 13
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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NoZyneighbor
Canada77 Posts
I have a question regarding the TvP matchup, currently I have been doing Bombers 5 rax pressure style, but since you are forced to be extremely defensive in the early part of the game as you are working off of naked raxes for most part of the early game. I was wondering if a 1 rax fe in 3 rax stim timing with double reactor and one tech lab to hit the toss ~8:30 would work? As the push would hit them before they get any sort of templar or collosus tech out unless they rush for it the fastest possible way. While in the background you continue with a regular tvp gameplan, reactored starport, third cc, extra raxes, upgrades, etc. The push does two things as it punishes tosses who tech too fast and also helps you find out what tech the toss is going for whether it be for storms or collossus | ||
RoarMan
Canada745 Posts
How do you stop infestor broodlords? I've been trying to use Ghosts again in a pure bio form against broods but they seem extremely inefficient. Vikings also seem to crumple. What do? | ||
Kasu
United Kingdom345 Posts
On September 20 2012 10:01 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver I have a question regarding the TvP matchup, currently I have been doing Bombers 5 rax pressure style, but since you are forced to be extremely defensive in the early part of the game as you are working off of naked raxes for most part of the early game. I was wondering if a 1 rax fe in 3 rax stim timing with double reactor and one tech lab to hit the toss ~8:30 would work? As the push would hit them before they get any sort of templar or collosus tech out unless they rush for it the fastest possible way. While in the background you continue with a regular tvp gameplan, reactored starport, third cc, extra raxes, upgrades, etc. The push does two things as it punishes tosses who tech too fast and also helps you find out what tech the toss is going for whether it be for storms or collossus + Show Spoiler + One problem that occurs to me is that your addons are going to be building right when you get hit by all the 1-base all-ins like 4gate, blinkstalkers, immortal busts and you will get utterly crushed with hardly any units, making it a bit of a gamble/a bad idea if you can't be certain toss is expanding. I'm not especially good so take this with a pinch of salt. Sorry. Had the non-pro Q&A thread open too and posted in the wrong one. | ||
IcemanA
Canada10 Posts
On September 20 2012 14:38 RoarMan wrote: Hello Ver How do you stop infestor broodlords? I've been trying to use Ghosts again in a pure bio form against broods but they seem extremely inefficient. Vikings also seem to crumple. What do? I'm no high-level player, but the answer to this usually involves spreading your vikings all around so they cant all be fungaled while the broods move out of range. ghosts are better used in sniping or emping the infestors anyways, doing nearly double the damage there. | ||
Vildhjarta22
United States2 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
For TvZ, how do you feel about Cloakshee CC as an opening? I'm not confident in my APM/multitasking to make Hellion/Banshee work very well so I was looking into a Banshee with Cloak followed by CC into Mech (with Banshee support from the one Starport until Brood Lords show up). Could a straight up fast cloaked Banshee work against a Zerg or would I be too vulnerable to something like a Baneling Bust? | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 17 2012 13:23 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver I fell in love with Byun's TvZ build he did against Nestea during the GSL quarterfinals and have been consistently using it, but since I do not end up getting cloak for the banshee would it be a good idea to delay the 2nd gas until you build the starport in order to get a faster 3rd cc since you can still do the initial part of the build with one gas, or would following the exact build be a better idea and just use the extra gas and mineral from not getting clock and putting it in something else such as stim or +1/+1. Since by delaying the 2nd gas you would get about 100 mineral more per min allowing you to get the 3rd cc a lot sooner at around 5:30~5:35, but your starport would be delayed by a couple of secs due to being short ~20 gas since of the addition of the reactor. Don't have access to this VOD but if it's some sort of fast expand → dual gas at the same time, skipping a gas is not a good idea since it will delay your first Factory by ~26 seconds (it takes ~52 seconds to gather 100 gas from a single Refinery). Pulling 1 SCV out of each gas after the Factory begins is a better idea if you don't want to get Cloak. On September 20 2012 05:38 monkybone wrote: Hi, I have a question regarding lategame TvZ, when the Zerg transitions into brood lords. I go 1 rax FE into hellion banshee, and ultimately end up with a marine tank medievac composition on three base. I also have 3 barracks with tech labs ready to produce marauders if I spot ultralisk tech. But what do I do if I spot brood lord tech? I have tried several things: - Throw down two extra starports (or 1 extra with reactor) and produce vikings 4 at a time: With this marine tank medievac viking composition I just can't trade cost-effectively against a Zerg army with infestors once the brood lords pop. Zerg compensates with corruptors, and with fungal my vikings just don't do the job, they die with doing minimal damage. - Throw down two extra star ports with tech labs, and produce ravens 2 at a time, and vikings 2 at a time: Before I have ravens with seeker missiles and a good viking count I have already been pushed back to my 3 bases, and I can't hold off the attack. I just can't transition fast enough to deal with this composition. The most success I've had vs Zerg in this situation is going for doom drops and heavy harass, hoping to catch the Zerg way off position. But this is risky and will likely turn into a bad trade if the Zerg stays defensive. Thanks for any tips. Depends on your economy and your situation (advantage/even/disadvantage). I usually get +3 Lab Starports when I have enough gas to make a Raven fleet, otherwise leave them naked and focus on Vikings if you don't have enough gas. You want to stall / defend your PF at the fourth while your Ravens are building up energy. Unless Zerg has mass Banelings along, it takes some time for BLs to break PFs. On September 20 2012 10:01 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver I have a question regarding the TvP matchup, currently I have been doing Bombers 5 rax pressure style, but since you are forced to be extremely defensive in the early part of the game as you are working off of naked raxes for most part of the early game. I was wondering if a 1 rax fe in 3 rax stim timing with double reactor and one tech lab to hit the toss ~8:30 would work? As the push would hit them before they get any sort of templar or collosus tech out unless they rush for it the fastest possible way. While in the background you continue with a regular tvp gameplan, reactored starport, third cc, extra raxes, upgrades, etc. The push does two things as it punishes tosses who tech too fast and also helps you find out what tech the toss is going for whether it be for storms or collossus Gasless 5 rax after expand can actually be more active on the map than standard 3 rax since it's not immediately game if you lose 5/6 Marines to a bunch of Stalkers/Sentries moving out on the map to pressure you. But it's not a reliable build anyway. 2 Tech Labs and 1 Reactor is better for a pre-Medivac Stim timing since it allows you to get CS. It's worthless on maps like Ohana and Shakuras with a tight ramp closed by 2 FFs, though. It's better on maps like Daybreak or CK in which you can come unseen from their third if Protoss didn't bother to park a unit here after you've taken back your Tower, but you shouldn't expect much even in this case; if the Observer misses your units moving out on the map, the late Starport and absence of a third OC should tell him you're going this. By the time your push hits, you cannot always know if he's going HTs or Colossi since he will defend with Gateway units only in most cases. On September 20 2012 14:38 RoarMan wrote: Hello Ver How do you stop infestor broodlords? I've been trying to use Ghosts again in a pure bio form against broods but they seem extremely inefficient. Vikings also seem to crumple. What do? Don't bother with mass Ghosts anymore. Counters depend on how much gas he's able to dump into this army. - Low Infestors/BLs count (basically when he gets his first BLs or you've crippled him enough by repeatedly killing his fourth and/or fifth): Marines/Thors/Vikings can still work to some extent with a good concave. - Medium count (if he manages to stabilize on at least 8 gases): Ravens become mandatory as the efficiency of any ground unit starts to dramatically decrease (the more BLs he has, the more Marines and Thors become useless). - High count (if he's maxed on BLs/Corruptors/Infestors with 10 or 12 gases): ideally you want your own fleet of BCs/Vikings/Ravens. Some Ghosts are an option but beware, they're really expensive. On September 21 2012 01:51 Vildhjarta22 wrote: what is a sure fire way to scout incoming cheese (i.e. sentry drop in your main, ff on the ramp) from all these noobie protoss on the gold league ladder. is there a specific time i should save a scan for DT's or to scan their main to see exactly when the prism is coming? soooo much cheese from protoss. i used to play toss and didnt rely on all ins or anything, but now every protoss i come up against is cheesing or all ining me.. really discouraging me from even laddering now. DT expands usually warp their DTs around the 7'15 mark, so they should be at your natural around the 7'30 mark. On September 21 2012 19:38 Thezzy wrote: Hey Ver, still a great thread, learning quite a bit. For TvZ, how do you feel about Cloakshee CC as an opening? I'm not confident in my APM/multitasking to make Hellion/Banshee work very well so I was looking into a Banshee with Cloak followed by CC into Mech (with Banshee support from the one Starport until Brood Lords show up). Could a straight up fast cloaked Banshee work against a Zerg or would I be too vulnerable to something like a Baneling Bust? It's too slow (expand is too late) and you won't get much out of it. Lack of early expand means your Zerg opponent will sacrifice an Overlord earlier, and even if he sees only some Marines it pretty much tells him you're going Cloak Banshees. | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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NoZyneighbor
Canada77 Posts
On September 21 2012 21:05 TheDwf wrote: Gasless 5 rax after expand can actually be more active on the map than standard 3 rax since it's not immediately game if you lose 5/6 Marines to a bunch of Stalkers/Sentries moving out on the map to pressure you. But it's not a reliable build anyway. 2 Tech Labs and 1 Reactor is better for a pre-Medivac Stim timing since it allows you to get CS. It's worthless on maps like Ohana and Shakuras with a tight ramp closed by 2 FFs, though. It's better on maps like Daybreak or CK in which you can come unseen from their third if Protoss didn't bother to park a unit here after you've taken back your Tower, but you shouldn't expect much even in this case; if the Observer misses your units moving out on the map, the late Starport and absence of a third OC should tell him you're going this. By the time your push hits, you cannot always know if he's going HTs or Colossi since he will defend with Gateway units only in most cases. I think you mistaken which 5 rax pressure I was talking about, the one i was refering to was the one Bomber did pretty much exclusively during the Red Bull Battleground against all the tosses he played against, where he takes one gas at the regular time and slowly takes the rest of the gas at certain intervals in order to get more minerals to have either money to get a faster 4th and 5th rax or money for extra bunkers. These are a couple links if you do not know what build I was refering too http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fast_5_Rax_Aggro_(vs._Protoss) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=340714 The build gives terran the ability to hit the toss really hard using either medivac harrass or hitting the toss from the front, either way you will have 5 raxes worth of production (3 with tech labs, 2 with reactors) at the 10 min mark when toss will usually be execpting medivac harrass. The answer you gave doesn't change, but I thought I would clarify everything. | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 22 2012 14:32 NoZyneighbor wrote: I think you mistaken which 5 rax pressure I was talking about, the one i was refering to was the one Bomber did pretty much exclusively during the Red Bull Battleground against all the tosses he played against, where he takes one gas at the regular time and slowly takes the rest of the gas at certain intervals in order to get more minerals to have either money to get a faster 4th and 5th rax or money for extra bunkers. Ah yes, my bad. I know this opening as “Bomber's 1 rax FE,” sorry. | ||
herMan
Japan2051 Posts
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
On September 28 2012 00:24 herMan wrote: Why do people say 1/1/1 against protoss is a bad build, figured out and not recommended if code S terrans still use it to kill protosses? The most recent I've seen is FXOasd vs MaNa. Once a Protoss has faced it enough times, it is harder to kill the Protoss in execution than it is for the Protoss to hold it. | ||
GhettoSheep
United States150 Posts
For instance in TvZ I do the standard Ghostking v. Nestea build and I know how the game is supposed to play out. I'm going to go for a 2/2 timing to kill his 4th while taking my own 4th and making the transition to deal with hive tech. (For me that's 2 more starports, 3rax's with techlabs and some ghost academies à la Kawaiirice.) I know if he goes broodlords my thor/marine/tank/viking can go decently well against it if I did damage with my push. I can then harass with nukes while trying to continually deny bases and eventually win the game. Same thing for ultras except I just make marauders instead of ghosts and I win with my economy and production as I should have 4 base to 3 if my 2/2 push is successful. However when I play TvP I just do a standard 1rax fe into 3rax tech and then... that's it. I know I'm going to take map control when my first medivacs pop out. Then I'm going to take a third and get more rax's and upgrades. That's it though. I have no goals such as "timing attack at X time to delay/hinder his lategame army so I can win with some sort of advantage whether it's economy or tech. A lot of my TvP's start with me getting a supply and economy lead but being unable to deal any damage or kill him, and he just eventually just runs me over with colossus/storm/zealots and warpins even if he was behind in bases the whole game. Maybe that's just how TvP works but I would much prefer a build where I can take the initiative like TvZ. I have a goal which is to kill the 4th, and I know how to turn the advantage into a win if I'm successful. Can TvP be approached that way? Or are there some good timing attack builds off a 1rax fe that function that way? I hate the "wander around the map looking for a good engagement" as I just lose the game if it goes poorly, and we end up even if I don't have a landslide victory. Edit: On another note how do you defend against a 4gate warpprism after a 1rax fe (just played a game where I only scouted the 4 gates and got rocked in my main with 2 useless bunkers in my nat) and what are some good simcity principles against protoss? Thanks, this thread is awesome. | ||
ComBro1
80 Posts
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NoZyneighbor
Canada77 Posts
I was able to successfully hold a roach bane ling allin, but I was wondering if there was anything else I can do to hold it better Here is a replay of the match, I played really poorly after I held the allin, kind of got flustered http://drop.sc/258670 I think I could of sent most of my scvs back into the main, started marauder production faster, sent out the banshees farther to start harrassing his lings and roachs, maybe send out my hellions to kill his lings. Thanks for the feedback | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On September 20 2012 05:38 monkybone wrote: Hi, I have a question regarding lategame TvZ, when the Zerg transitions into brood lords. I go 1 rax FE into hellion banshee, and ultimately end up with a marine tank medievac composition on three base. I also have 3 barracks with tech labs ready to produce marauders if I spot ultralisk tech. But what do I do if I spot brood lord tech? I have tried several things: - Throw down two extra starports (or 1 extra with reactor) and produce vikings 4 at a time: With this marine tank medievac viking composition I just can't trade cost-effectively against a Zerg army with infestors once the brood lords pop. Zerg compensates with corruptors, and with fungal my vikings just don't do the job, they die with doing minimal damage. - Throw down two extra star ports with tech labs, and produce ravens 2 at a time, and vikings 2 at a time: Before I have ravens with seeker missiles and a good viking count I have already been pushed back to my 3 bases, and I can't hold off the attack. I just can't transition fast enough to deal with this composition. The most success I've had vs Zerg in this situation is going for doom drops and heavy harass, hoping to catch the Zerg way off position. But this is risky and will likely turn into a bad trade if the Zerg stays defensive. Thanks for any tips. On September 20 2012 14:38 RoarMan wrote: Hello Ver How do you stop infestor broodlords? I've been trying to use Ghosts again in a pure bio form against broods but they seem extremely inefficient. Vikings also seem to crumple. What do? Honestly nobody has created a reliable method yet: every one relies on the Zerg making mistakes. The ideal way is to have so much initiative that you can keep forcing trades/killing bases and never let them get critical mass. See Taeja/Revival on Entombed, MLG Raleigh, for an example. There are three general theories. The first is to try and evade the BL army as long as possible by harassment and dispersing your forces. However, this approach depends on the Zerg being unable to spread creep/overlords/spores effectively to see your strikes coming. If those prerequisites are not in place, you can really throw them off balance. Once they are off balance, you can keep up the pressure. This style has declined in popularity drastically as Zergs have gotten better at handling it, but it is still possible. See Dream vs Sleep, Antiga, GESL; MMA vs Stephano, IPL4, Cloud Kingdom (pre-patch though). Taeja/Nestea, IPLTAC finals. Nestea moves out, Taeja runs in and sacks bases. The more modern take on this is to combine the above with #3 below to force the Zerg to stay at home for a prolonged period due a threat of counterdrops, while building up a large raven/viking and later battlecruiser force at home. See MVP/Slivko, MVP/Nestea, from IEM Cologne. The second is to try and bait them into an open area and get a massive surround with bio/thor/tank. Theoretically if they don't have critical mass you can engage in such a way that they can't fungal fast enough (due to being across multiple screens) and thus are unable to prevent you from getting in range. This however only works before 11-12 broods + support, at which point all your ground dies. Examples: Polt/DRG, Entombed, MLG Arena, Marineking/Golden, Metropolis, MLG Anaheim. The last is to turtle and rush raven/vikings, with the aim of eventually getting battlecruisers. Seeker Missile does not actually hit the broods if the Zerg is good due to range difference; however, it can kill the corruptors. PDD is also extremely useful in keeping vikings alive. The key is being able to engage at a planetary or an area where they can't kill your tanks easily. Ttanks/pfs are crucial for engaging bl blobs because you can snipe queens/infestors and help clean up infested terran/broodlings; the former especially will wreck you so easily. Here is a game of me vs sortof lategame. On September 21 2012 01:51 Vildhjarta22 wrote: what is a sure fire way to scout incoming cheese (i.e. sentry drop in your main, ff on the ramp) from all these noobie protoss on the gold league ladder. is there a specific time i should save a scan for DT's or to scan their main to see exactly when the prism is coming? soooo much cheese from protoss. i used to play toss and didnt rely on all ins or anything, but now every protoss i come up against is cheesing or all ining me.. really discouraging me from even laddering now. There is no surefire way. Scanning is usually a horrible solution because if they are smart they will hide or spread out their buildings. The most you can do is use your scv scout to reduce it to either 1 gas or 2 gas and use that to narrow down the possible options. Ideally you can sneak an scv into their main, but that is naturally not always possible. In terms of general defending, your best bet is stim and then a fast rush to medivacs, with 3 bunkers at the front, a turret by 715, an scv patrolling a few screens in front of your bunkers, and most of your army in the main. This way you know if he starts to move on to the natural, while keeping your units in the main for safety against warp prism shenanigans or void rays. On September 17 2012 13:23 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver I fell in love with Byun's TvZ build he did against Nestea during the GSL quarterfinals and have been consistently using it, but since I do not end up getting cloak for the banshee would it be a good idea to delay the 2nd gas until you build the starport in order to get a faster 3rd cc since you can still do the initial part of the build with one gas, or would following the exact build be a better idea and just use the extra gas and mineral from not getting clock and putting it in something else such as stim or +1/+1. Since by delaying the 2nd gas you would get about 100 mineral more per min allowing you to get the 3rd cc a lot sooner at around 5:30~5:35, but your starport would be delayed by a couple of secs due to being short ~20 gas since of the addition of the reactor. Yes you can do this and just add the gas sas soon as. However, it is very handy to have cloak if the Zerg goes allin, because you can permanently deny their third then until they have lair. Thus you shouldn't write it off completely. On September 19 2012 13:38 NoZyneighbor wrote: I was wondering what was your opinion of Bomber's TvZ build he did against DRG in GSL season 4 group H, in which he forgoes the hellion/banshee harass, instead opts for really fast 3 cc and go for a big marine tank push at around ~11:30 consisting of ~60 marine, 4 tanks, and 1 medivac with +1/+1. Even though the zerg is left to its own devices, it hits at an early time than the regular ~13min +2/+2 push and still hits pretty hard especially when most zerg theses days will probably not be ready for it. While it is very vulnerable in the beginning as you will suffer lots of damage or just straight up die to a 7:10 roach/ling or the ~9 min roach/bane/ling all ins Ignoring the clear coinflip problem (a serious issue)...I feel it's good at taking advantage of stupid Zergs who only know how to 1a their army or Zergs whose creep is not ideal. Thus in general it may not be an 'ideal' build, as it lets the Zerg get too comfy, and may suffer versus top notch Zerg play. If you move out to attack and the Zerg does a ling/bane backstab, your entire plan just went kaput. Your army has no flexibility because you lack medivacs, hellions, or banshees, and if you lose any amount of scvs you either have to retreat and save the nat or 3rd (and thus abandon the timing/let the cycle repeat to your detriment). If you try to just sac your base to the backstab and push on, he can abandon a base and try to force stims while setting up a big flank on creep and you can never fight more than 1 battle due to no medivacs. Just doesn't feel very good. In short, not bad for a one time use deal. But for a long term regular use strat? Questionable. On September 20 2012 01:02 Kasu wrote: Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it). I'd like to know two things: 1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be? 2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout? Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best. 1. Depends how many bunkers he makes. The more he makes the harder it is for you to break but the easier it is to base trade and lift everything off. His army can't ever beat you in the open, so if you can evacuate everything and kill his cc you win. If he doesn't really bunker you just elevator 2 meidvacs outside your base, pull scvs and attack with a giant flank leading with marauders when combat shield completes. You can generally stall long enough with bunkers to reach this point. On September 20 2012 03:06 Sp4cem4nSpiff wrote: Great Thread! Is it better to get Stim or Combat Shield first in TvT? I thought CS was better, but I notice a lot of Korean Terran in the GSL going for stim first. What are your thoughts? Thanks for your time Combat shields is generally more useful vs gas first because stim comes far too late to do anything. Stim is more useful vs rax gas cloak in particular, and more helpful versus fast tank pushes. Getting combat shields first is safer vs most common pro openings (as pro's rarely tank push). Against rax cc openings stim first is better because you can kill his banshee really easily if he goes cloak after expo. On September 20 2012 04:27 NoZyneighbor wrote: If you did the expo into 3 rax combat shield then you can pull a couple scvs for buffer and meet him before he can siege, or if you opened 1 rax fe double gas then you should be able to delay his push long enough with a repaired bunker, that you will be able to get out your own siege tank and Viking to ward him off. On September 20 2012 05:30 prOpSaiton wrote: Am i the only one thinking this might actually apply here? It's a good, detailed guide about how you can stall him till you have stim+medivacs. Yeah that's nice but it's really important to unload 2 medivacs, or at the very least one, behind his army, both to block reinforcements and to snipe his tanks from the rear/flank instead of 1a'ing down the ramp. On September 20 2012 10:01 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver I have a question regarding the TvP matchup, currently I have been doing Bombers 5 rax pressure style, but since you are forced to be extremely defensive in the early part of the game as you are working off of naked raxes for most part of the early game. I was wondering if a 1 rax fe in 3 rax stim timing with double reactor and one tech lab to hit the toss ~8:30 would work? As the push would hit them before they get any sort of templar or collosus tech out unless they rush for it the fastest possible way. While in the background you continue with a regular tvp gameplan, reactored starport, third cc, extra raxes, upgrades, etc. The push does two things as it punishes tosses who tech too fast and also helps you find out what tech the toss is going for whether it be for storms or collossus Maybe on Metalopolis but on any current map he's just going to forcefield you out and get way ahead because your tech is so delayed. This would only work as a coinflip to nexus into dt drop or something crazy, some NA doofus who goes double forge off 1 gateway or something (i,e not legit builds), and maybe the Parting build (or a greedier triple nexus build). On September 16 2012 16:18 kollin wrote: Ver, I may be able to help organise the OP if you want. I assume it's just putting answers in appropriate spoilers and maybe linking vods/replays? On September 19 2012 02:47 Indrium wrote: I actually will volunteer to do that, if you want. Yes! Thank you both very much.All I want is organize everything in a Q/A basis like in the OP currently and to link cited games. If you guys just want to post it in the thread when you've made some progress that'd make it easier to coordinate. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On September 28 2012 00:24 herMan wrote: Why do people say 1/1/1 against protoss is a bad build, figured out and not recommended if code S terrans still use it to kill protosses? The most recent I've seen is FXOasd vs MaNa. It falls in under the type of builds which won't work if the opponent plays right but can take advantage of a player that either doesn't know how to handle it or is simply nervous and doesn't play at the required level because it is a tense match. Thus it isn't reliable and the outcome is mostly out of your control, but can work. On September 28 2012 03:45 GhettoSheep wrote: What's a good game plan for TvP? For instance in TvZ I do the standard Ghostking v. Nestea build and I know how the game is supposed to play out. I'm going to go for a 2/2 timing to kill his 4th while taking my own 4th and making the transition to deal with hive tech. (For me that's 2 more starports, 3rax's with techlabs and some ghost academies à la Kawaiirice.) I know if he goes broodlords my thor/marine/tank/viking can go decently well against it if I did damage with my push. I can then harass with nukes while trying to continually deny bases and eventually win the game. Same thing for ultras except I just make marauders instead of ghosts and I win with my economy and production as I should have 4 base to 3 if my 2/2 push is successful. However when I play TvP I just do a standard 1rax fe into 3rax tech and then... that's it. I know I'm going to take map control when my first medivacs pop out. Then I'm going to take a third and get more rax's and upgrades. That's it though. I have no goals such as "timing attack at X time to delay/hinder his lategame army so I can win with some sort of advantage whether it's economy or tech. A lot of my TvP's start with me getting a supply and economy lead but being unable to deal any damage or kill him, and he just eventually just runs me over with colossus/storm/zealots and warpins even if he was behind in bases the whole game. Maybe that's just how TvP works but I would much prefer a build where I can take the initiative like TvZ. I have a goal which is to kill the 4th, and I know how to turn the advantage into a win if I'm successful. Can TvP be approached that way? Or are there some good timing attack builds off a 1rax fe that function that way? I hate the "wander around the map looking for a good engagement" as I just lose the game if it goes poorly, and we end up even if I don't have a landslide victory. Edit: On another note how do you defend against a 4gate warpprism after a 1rax fe (just played a game where I only scouted the 4 gates and got rocked in my main with 2 useless bunkers in my nat) and what are some good simcity principles against protoss? Thanks, this thread is awesome. You're right, standard TvP has a less specific game plan and is more about searching for any openings while transitioning onto the next stages. It's really difficult to teach because unless you are able to do damage with drops, you'll have a very hard time estimating when his tech transition will happen, which determines your timings completely. Fortunately, there is a build (somewhat riskier) which lets you play that kind of initiative based plan you are seeking. It is essentially a rax cc into cloak banshee with a 3rd cc/double ebay. See Supernova vs MC on Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak (especially this game) from IEM. If you look closely supernova has a very mapped out plan using his banshees to occupy the protoss and keep them alive as a threat. Then he gets a raven, and loads up for a quad medivac + raven drop while rallying reinforcements over to the Protoss third. If the banshees stay alive the Protoss has a really awkward time discerning your intentions and you ideally can get in a rhythm where he is always one step behind. If you execute this well enough you should be able to attain some kind of superiority and be able to make a timing attack at his 3rd around 2-2 with ghost/viking while getting a 4th. 4 gate warp prism is an insanely strong allin. Ideally you want to stop him from landing by having an scv patrolling in front of the natural and moving your marines to the likely unload point. If you can delay long enough you'll get enough of a critical marine mass that he can't elevator anymore. If he does manage land at 640~, you need to pull ALL your scvs, group them all together with marines in the back, and kill everything because he can make a second round of warpins. If you alternate between amove/hold pos microing scvs you can reduce losses while keeping your marines alive the entire time. On September 28 2012 05:32 ComBro1 wrote: How do you attack into Protosses once they have either AOE or charge? I prefer a style where I can constantly be aggressing, but when protosses tech very aggressively, I feel like I can't do any damage and at the same time, I feel uncomfortable teching to ghosts on less than 6 gasses. As a person who feels his multitask is his strongest suit, I really need help being able to attack and retreat against protoss, and charge really negates the retreat aspect I feel. Charge is strong but before colossus it's also awkward for the Protoss to make use of because you can just kite him and blast away because charge carries him out of guardian shield range. If he tries to block with forcefields you just pick up your stranded units and his zealots run uselessly against a wall. Being able to kite perfectly is really crucial in getting cost efficient engagements, as is keeping your medivac count high. See Marineking vs Parting, GSTL finals, Entombed (rematch game), for a good example on how to continuously pressure him. It depends what tech they go intially. You don't need to really rush ghosts because he can't be aggressive with his templars or you just kite him to death.( see Kas vs Parting, Daybreak. RSL2. Marineking vs Parting, Daybreak. KSL Finals) The templars just give him defensive stability for a certain period. On September 28 2012 16:48 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hey Ver I was able to successfully hold a roach bane ling allin, but I was wondering if there was anything else I can do to hold it better Here is a replay of the match, I played really poorly after I held the allin, kind of got flustered http://drop.sc/258670 I think I could of sent most of my scvs back into the main, started marauder production faster, sent out the banshees farther to start harrassing his lings and roachs, maybe send out my hellions to kill his lings. Thanks for the feedback As I said in the OP I don't have time to watch replays, but from your description, one important thing with holding roach bane allins is to have your hellions in the main, firing down on anything on the ramp. He will suffer a lot extra damage on the tight ramp space and when hes under fire from the hellions, he might mess up and have his roaches block the banelings. You also need to prioritize scvs, because so long as you don't lose your wall and your hellions, you can't actually die, so it just comes down to minimizing damage. That means bringing them all into the main in time to close the wall. See Sheth vs Flash from the MvP on Ohana. | ||
herMan
Japan2051 Posts
I have three different variations: 2 naked rax, the second hidden somewhere in my base/nat and being at the opponents ramp at 5.30 with a handful of marines and 2 scv's. If he doesn't expand right away I just fake pressure and expand myself asap. I usually try to contain him with two bunkers, leaving just before he has the units to crush them. The 2rax with gas, moving out when I have my first marauder and researching concussive shells. The 2rax with combat shield researched first, attacking when it finishes. Does any of this work at the highest level? | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On October 04 2012 02:31 herMan wrote: What's your opinion on 2rax pressure in TvP? I have three different variations: 2 naked rax, the second hidden somewhere in my base/nat and being at the opponents ramp at 5.30 with a handful of marines and 2 scv's. If he doesn't expand right away I just fake pressure and expand myself asap. I usually try to contain him with two bunkers, leaving just before he has the units to crush them. The 2rax with gas, moving out when I have my first marauder and researching concussive shells. The 2rax with combat shield researched first, attacking when it finishes. Does any of this work at the highest level? The only 2 rax used anymore is the reactor tech lab, usually conc shells, once in awhile stim. Certain Terrans (polt/mkp) love to 2 rax on Taldarim to hopefully coinflip greedy Protosses who get unlucky with scouting (or just scout late). Mana also just lost to a 2 rax in gsl I believe. In general it's not very good, loses to a lot of builds outright, but beats a few builds outright. If you want to use it once in awhile, sure, but as a standard go to build, not viable. | ||
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