EPT[!] Pro Terran Strategy Q/A - Page 14
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sewergoat
United States97 Posts
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On October 04 2012 08:38 sewergoat wrote: ok seriously how is this thread different from the terran help me thread? Because Ver and theDwf are GM level, whereas most of the people who answer the questions in the terran help me thread that aren't highlighted posters are 1. Theorycrafting an answer 2. Leeching off of previous answers 3. Are barely better than the player asking the question With a few being in masters and actually knowing what they're talking about Besides, in case you haven't noticed there's a lot less of the lower-level questions and a lot more detailed answers. | ||
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ETisME
12232 Posts
I am a Plat Zerg in SEA (diamond Z in NA) and recently got an account from my friend and recently hit gold with random facing plat to diamond players at SEA server. I use this TvP build in all matchup, which is 1 rax -> cc -> double gas 2 rax -> +1 atk medivac stim CS pure macro bio play While this is working wonderfully, I am hoping to get some help on TvZ specifically: Where to build extra rax: The problem I have is that when rax number gets high, I just don't know where to put the rax. Sometimes I put in my third to help blocking but that stops me from putting PF there later on. towards 4 bases, I need around 20 rax in total. Barely got any room to put all these rax @@ Medivac micro related Do you just select your bio and right click onto the drop ship? what's the best way to deselect those who didn't get onto the ship? It is taking too long to load a drop ship and then pulls out those who are not in the ship. Sometimes when my marines are surrounded and I walk them to the ship, they just get stucked by the lings and can't get to the ship and die. I find that when I am kiting, my medivac kites along and therefore not healing at all times. Do you normally kit by selecting all bio with mouse and just kite those? What if the medivac are out of position while kiting? What's the biggest reason on not to get medviac energy upgrade? Dropping. How? Seeing zergs put in spores in all their bases, is it better to just do medivac drop to somewhere far away and then stim them into the base? When do you do double drops? How to know if it is safe to drop? What if they counter attack? When I am loading units into the drop ship, one thing that worries me is what if he attacks now and I don't have my units with me? Against a more aggressive zerg such as doing more runbys or muta, should I drop? One thing I recall when I play as Z is that if I play aggressive and get dropped, I take way more damage and if I use muta to defend the drop, I lose some muta and therefore have to be more defensive. But when I try dropping against an aggressive zerg, it doesn't look as if I have done enough damage to warrant the drop even after killing off one or two mutas with some drones. should I be pushing out immediately when I drop him? or should I turtle harder and just drop him, make him go defensive and turtle more? | ||
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Jermman
Canada174 Posts
Im top diamond terran, so take this with a grain of salt, Im definitely not the same level as Ver. When building barracks I have not run in to this problem of space, which leads me to ask, how are you doing your sim city? Usually you want neat vertical rows of buildings in your bases. Is there a specific map you have trouble with space on? For medivacs I understand your problem. You have you entire bio army (with the medi's) on 1 hotkey. To load them and then move the still selected units that couldnt fit in the medivacs, you should ctrl shift click your marines and marauders, then load them in to the medivacs by clicking them. Dont select the medi's themselves. The same thing goes with kiting. Crtl shift click your bio units and stutter step them backwards. This way the medi's dont move with the army and will keep healing. Don't drop vs mutas IMO. Drop vs infestor ling before they get infestors out. But yeah vs muta, instead of dropping, just go kill him. Seriously. Mutas are pretty crap units in a straight up fight. Put a few turrets and leave a few marines at home, and just go kill him. | ||
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herMan
Japan2051 Posts
On October 04 2012 11:56 ETisME wrote: Hi guys, I don't need a super detailed answer but would love to get some help with my T. I am a Plat Zerg in SEA (diamond Z in NA) and recently got an account from my friend and recently hit gold with random facing plat to diamond players at SEA server. I use this TvP build in all matchup, which is 1 rax -> cc -> double gas 2 rax -> +1 atk medivac stim CS pure macro bio play While this is working wonderfully, I am hoping to get some help on TvZ specifically: Where to build extra rax: The problem I have is that when rax number gets high, I just don't know where to put the rax. Sometimes I put in my third to help blocking but that stops me from putting PF there later on. towards 4 bases, I need around 20 rax in total. Barely got any room to put all these rax @@ Medivac micro related Do you just select your bio and right click onto the drop ship? what's the best way to deselect those who didn't get onto the ship? It is taking too long to load a drop ship and then pulls out those who are not in the ship. Sometimes when my marines are surrounded and I walk them to the ship, they just get stucked by the lings and can't get to the ship and die. I find that when I am kiting, my medivac kites along and therefore not healing at all times. Do you normally kit by selecting all bio with mouse and just kite those? What if the medivac are out of position while kiting? What's the biggest reason on not to get medviac energy upgrade? Dropping. How? Seeing zergs put in spores in all their bases, is it better to just do medivac drop to somewhere far away and then stim them into the base? When do you do double drops? How to know if it is safe to drop? What if they counter attack? When I am loading units into the drop ship, one thing that worries me is what if he attacks now and I don't have my units with me? Against a more aggressive zerg such as doing more runbys or muta, should I drop? One thing I recall when I play as Z is that if I play aggressive and get dropped, I take way more damage and if I use muta to defend the drop, I lose some muta and therefore have to be more defensive. But when I try dropping against an aggressive zerg, it doesn't look as if I have done enough damage to warrant the drop even after killing off one or two mutas with some drones. should I be pushing out immediately when I drop him? or should I turtle harder and just drop him, make him go defensive and turtle more? High master terran here. About the extra rax: Learn to make your buildings neatly in rows to maximize the room in your main. When the game enters the late midgame I make extra production buildings in front of my natural. Also, you do not need twenty raxes, that is huge. Make addons. About medivac micro: I just select units and put them in the dropship, then stop all my forces and select the drop medivacs individually. If for example lings are closing in and going to surround your forces, move your medivacs on top of the marines so they can load up instantly and not bumble around while getting eaten. Don't really know about the medivac healing while kiting on pro levels, someone could clarify this. About dropping: Nowadays zergs are getting better and betting at deflecting drops. Some do the smart thing and put spores and spines on their fringe bases (main, fourth etc.) which makes dropping there inefficient because you have to shoot the defensive structures first, allowing the zerg to bring forces to reinforce before you go do some real damage. If you see this, try to spot weakness in the static defense and considering if you could drop your forces to the undefended side. If you can't I usually drop in proximity of the place I want to drop and stim all my marines from afar, picking them up when the defense arrives. Using drops need good mechanics since you have to keep up with the zerg if he tries to counterattack. Mutalisks shut down drops pretty hard but you can try placing drops in position while waiting for the mutalisks to be out of position so you can do damage. Also with infestors being on the field you have to react quick if he tries to come and fungal you. Because the game has been out for some time now, drops don't work the way they used to. It's no longer viable in the higher levels to just drop if you got nothing better to do. Pros use them either not to do damage directly with the drop, but drawing back the zerg's forces so he can move his main army into a better position. The alternative being that he's posturing aggressively with his main army so the zerg is scared and musters his whole army, allowing the drop to do significantly more damage when there's no defense around. Hope this helps. | ||
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Saiton
Sweden467 Posts
On October 04 2012 17:57 herMan wrote: Pros use them either not to do damage directly with the drop, but drawing back the zerg's forces so he can move his main army into a better position. The alternative being that he's posturing aggressively with his main army so the zerg is scared and musters his whole army, allowing the drop to do significantly more damage when there's no defense around. Hope this helps. Mid Master T and an avid fan of TaeJa's creep butchering style. In addition to what herMan, if there is no base there or it's too heavily defended some opt just to take out creep tumours on that side of the map while moving with their main army. This will not only allow you to decrease zerg vision(obviously) but also forces their creep spreading queens into awkward positions that are easily killable and makes the base easier to snipe in the future. | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
Just what is this "defensive" people are talking about? Is it simply having enough tanks for early pressure? Or is ti a combination of having good game sense, timing etc, and having the appropriate defenses for it? | ||
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xPabt
226 Posts
Is getting cloak worth it if you aren't going mech? Any general advice on how to control the zergs creep spread? | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On October 04 2012 21:10 dynwar7 wrote: People have been saying MVp is well known for his strong defensive play. Just what is this "defensive" people are talking about? Is it simply having enough tanks for early pressure? Or is ti a combination of having good game sense, timing etc, and having the appropriate defenses for it? Your same question has already been answered in the Terran Help Me Thread. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On October 07 2012 03:39 Whatson wrote: Your same question has already been answered in the Terran Help Me Thread. If you look at the post time they were both posted at roughly around the same time. And maybe he also wants a really high level players opinion on the matter? | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On October 04 2012 11:56 ETisME wrote: Hi guys, I don't need a super detailed answer but would love to get some help with my T. I am a Plat Zerg in SEA (diamond Z in NA) and recently got an account from my friend and recently hit gold with random facing plat to diamond players at SEA server. I use this TvP build in all matchup, which is 1 rax -> cc -> double gas 2 rax -> +1 atk medivac stim CS pure macro bio play While this is working wonderfully, I am hoping to get some help on TvZ specifically: Where to build extra rax: The problem I have is that when rax number gets high, I just don't know where to put the rax. Sometimes I put in my third to help blocking but that stops me from putting PF there later on. towards 4 bases, I need around 20 rax in total. Barely got any room to put all these rax @@ Medivac micro related Do you just select your bio and right click onto the drop ship? what's the best way to deselect those who didn't get onto the ship? It is taking too long to load a drop ship and then pulls out those who are not in the ship. Sometimes when my marines are surrounded and I walk them to the ship, they just get stucked by the lings and can't get to the ship and die. I find that when I am kiting, my medivac kites along and therefore not healing at all times. Do you normally kit by selecting all bio with mouse and just kite those? What if the medivac are out of position while kiting? What's the biggest reason on not to get medviac energy upgrade? Dropping. How? Seeing zergs put in spores in all their bases, is it better to just do medivac drop to somewhere far away and then stim them into the base? When do you do double drops? How to know if it is safe to drop? What if they counter attack? When I am loading units into the drop ship, one thing that worries me is what if he attacks now and I don't have my units with me? Against a more aggressive zerg such as doing more runbys or muta, should I drop? One thing I recall when I play as Z is that if I play aggressive and get dropped, I take way more damage and if I use muta to defend the drop, I lose some muta and therefore have to be more defensive. But when I try dropping against an aggressive zerg, it doesn't look as if I have done enough damage to warrant the drop even after killing off one or two mutas with some drones. should I be pushing out immediately when I drop him? or should I turtle harder and just drop him, make him go defensive and turtle more? Your tvp build does not make sense or is just mislabeled: you get the double gas either after the 2nd or 3rd barracks, not before; in addition the more refined form of it is not particularly viable versus Zerg. You should almost never need 20 barracks. You rarely are going to be trading so much with such an amazing economy that you can utilize such production power. More than 12 is rarely seen, which should not be hard to fight in your base assuming you stash depots/tech buildings in corners and raxes in long rows with a hex or two in between. It depends on the matchup but you usually move medivacs first over the units then right click to load them in. Just click on the medivac once its loaded, and shift click the others if needed, or control click if they are the only ones. For kiting, you either need to control click/lasso your bio units during battle, or keep them on their own hotkey to begin with, with your medivacs on a general a click. There's almost never a need to get medivac energy upgrade and a tech lab is really annoying in most cases. The dropping is a really complicated question. Frankly dropping is very difficult and if you watch Taeja, he only uses drops for counters later on, occasionally an early double drop if Zerg has no map presence. Taeja vs Coca on Cloud Kingdom (IPLTAC Slayers vs Liquid) is probably the best example of Taeja's drop style. Infrequent, as he prefers big battles, but still devastating at the key moments. Dropping when he counters while defending with your army is very good IF your drop force is already in motion. If you take too long he'll have reinforcements out to handle it. On October 04 2012 17:39 Jermman wrote: @ETisME: Im top diamond terran, so take this with a grain of salt, Im definitely not the same level as Ver. When building barracks I have not run in to this problem of space, which leads me to ask, how are you doing your sim city? Usually you want neat vertical rows of buildings in your bases. Is there a specific map you have trouble with space on? For medivacs I understand your problem. You have you entire bio army (with the medi's) on 1 hotkey. To load them and then move the still selected units that couldnt fit in the medivacs, you should ctrl shift click your marines and marauders, then load them in to the medivacs by clicking them. Dont select the medi's themselves. The same thing goes with kiting. Crtl shift click your bio units and stutter step them backwards. This way the medi's dont move with the army and will keep healing. Don't drop vs mutas IMO. Drop vs infestor ling before they get infestors out. But yeah vs muta, instead of dropping, just go kill him. Seriously. Mutas are pretty crap units in a straight up fight. Put a few turrets and leave a few marines at home, and just go kill him. What? Muta/ling/bling is a lot stronger in a straight up fight than the equivalent infestor lair army. You can push vs infestor armies a lot earlier than vs mutas, as mutas will snipe your tanks and do too much damage until you have a strong enough tank/thor complement. In general it is also actually easier to drop vs mutas as the muta player is forced to be aggressive and once you know where his mutas are you can drop on the other side, then drop on the side where the mutas were because he has to send them to handle the first drop. The exception here though is that if they have no muta/corruptor you can kill off their overlords with a viking and remove their ability to see certain drops coming. On October 07 2012 03:19 xPabt wrote: When going helion banshee 3CC into bio-tank is it better to suicide your helions for drones or keep them as long as possible to deny creep? Is getting cloak worth it if you aren't going mech? Any general advice on how to control the zergs creep spread? Assuming he takes a fast third....it really depends on how many drones you can get. You need to kill a lot more than basic cost for it to be worth it (probably 3:1 at minimum), as losing those hellions hurts you a lot (see Taeja/Stephano on Whirlwind). It also depends on how he stations his queens. If his queens are at the edge of the creep, just run right by them. But if he keeps them near the chokes, then don't bother. Yeah cloak is usually worth it; it is always worth it if he doesn't scout the port. At the very least you can use the banshees to permanently stop his creep until his overseer is ready. Without cloak he can push away anything at the edge of the creep with 3-4 queens but with cloak he cannot. See Taeja vs Revival on Entombed, MLG Raleigh. Taeja does no damage yet remains fine because he slows the creep a lot. On October 04 2012 21:10 dynwar7 wrote: People have been saying MVp is well known for his strong defensive play. Just what is this "defensive" people are talking about? Is it simply having enough tanks for early pressure? Or is ti a combination of having good game sense, timing etc, and having the appropriate defenses for it? It's not a builds thing, it's a decision making and game sense aspect. Mvp almost never dies to allins or random timing attacks by the Zerg. He knows when he needs to defend and how to position his units. There have been multiple GSL games, I believe at least two on Antiga, where the Zerg goes for a 3 base roach bane drop allin and Mvp either hits a miracle scan or knows its coming and defends his bases with excellent unit spread, almost forcing the Zerg to attempt a suicidal attack that flops, because they know Mvp will just wait until maxed and win a big battle. Fans may sit there thinking 'what on earth is this Zerg doing' but the Zerg was banking on Mvp being too aggressive (such as MMA vs Dongraegu on Antiga, Blizz cup). He also knows when he misses his timing window and how to play catch up. Against Vortix on Ohana and Nerchio on Cloud Kingdom in IEM he realizes he can't do a pre-brood timing attack and thus begins his tech transition very early while staying on a defensive posture. Both Zergs try to take advantage of what they assume to be an unprepared Mvp, only to find him more than ready. Lastly, I suggest you look at Supernova vs Vortix on Antiga and Mvp vs Vortix on Antiga from IEM. While Mvp also does an excellent job denying the 4th base, you can tell his defensive positioning is just a little bit better, which lets him win very easily. | ||
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BOJINKINS
Canada13 Posts
I use filtersc MMMH build and it works sometimes. Is this build still viable or should I find a new build? | ||
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knightwulf
Canada174 Posts
When do you get the ebay? After tech lab starts? after stim? after 3depot or before? I am trying to get the gas timings to work out but they never time quite right with the reactors, ebay, and factory. Also, is there a specific Build Order for reactor hellion into 2 armory 2 factory mech? Is there a free replay I could study? Thanks, Knightwulf + Show Spoiler + 900pt masters, in case this matters | ||
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
On October 30 2012 12:10 knightwulf wrote: I have a simple question about a optimal 1 rax expo into rax, tech, 2xs reactor build. +1 medivac @10min timing When do you get the ebay? After tech lab starts? after stim? after 3depot or before? I am trying to get the gas timings to work out but they never time quite right with the reactors, ebay, and factory. Also, is there a specific Build Order for reactor hellion into 2 armory 2 factory mech? Is there a free replay I could study? Thanks, Knightwulf + Show Spoiler + 900pt masters, in case this matters Spend your gas in this order: Stim -> Factory -> +1 -> reactors. For the last question I assume you are referring to the standard tvz mech build. I think Flash does it the best right now; if you have access to MvP look at Flash vs Sheth on Ohana and Daybreak. As for replays, look at MVP's games from IEM cologne, specifically vs nerchio on cloud kingdom and vortix on ohana. On October 27 2012 21:14 BOJINKINS wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vicuikNGb4&feature=BFa&list=PL3BEC8845BD92A381(starts at roughly 5 minutes) I use filtersc MMMH build and it works sometimes. Is this build still viable or should I find a new build? Find a new build; this was never viable in the first place, and its more optimized variant (with factory before the other addons) died after the queen patch. The safest and strongest current build these days is some variant of rax expo hellion banshee 3rd. Look at the Taeja/Leenock series for some ideas. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
The pressure doesn't need to kill my opponent but I feel uncomfortable leaving my opponent alone for any length of time. For TvT I'm currently thinking about using the 3 fast reapers build (12 rax, 13 gas, 16rax, 18 orbital, gets 3 reapers at 5:00) but I was wondering if you know of any other TvT builds that put on some pressure (preferably before or at 7:00) without delaying an expansion horribly much. I can think of a Cloakshee Expand and maybe a Hellion drop, but do you know which early TvT aggression builds are currently the most stable? | ||
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Decado
United States42 Posts
Are there any viable 2 base all ins? I see forGG doing a lot of helion banshee into marine medivac, opting not to make a 3rd cc. Or should I try to mech? I have lost a lot of motivation and passion for this game because of my TvZ  | ||
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
On October 31 2012 03:41 Thezzy wrote: In all my matchups I prefer to put on some pressure early on and expand behind that rather than a 1rax expand. The pressure doesn't need to kill my opponent but I feel uncomfortable leaving my opponent alone for any length of time. For TvT I'm currently thinking about using the 3 fast reapers build (12 rax, 13 gas, 16rax, 18 orbital, gets 3 reapers at 5:00) but I was wondering if you know of any other TvT builds that put on some pressure (preferably before or at 7:00) without delaying an expansion horribly much. I can think of a Cloakshee Expand and maybe a Hellion drop, but do you know which early TvT aggression builds are currently the most stable? I don't think reapers have been good for a long time; they are predictable on non taldarim maps and everyone knows how to defend it now. Probably the most stable and one of the safest TvT builds is gas rax banshee expand. However, you can't always be aggressive as generally you need to keep the banshee at home to hold off elevators. A slightly older variant is thestc's build where you make 3 hellions before cc if they rax expo, then when you send the banshee into their main you run. There should be a replay of him vs drewbie on Daybreak from the first MLG Arena. A newer version is Fantasy's build which I outlined above (utillized against major and kawaiirice in MvP, maybe in one of his proleague tvt's not sure). On October 31 2012 07:13 Decado wrote: I have completely given up on TvZ. I am a high masters Terran that struggles against diamond Zergs. SC2gears this season my winrate vs P and T is over 60%, and my winrate vs Z (which i have played almost as much as T and P combined) is 32%. Are there any viable 2 base all ins? I see forGG doing a lot of helion banshee into marine medivac, opting not to make a 3rd cc. Or should I try to mech? I have lost a lot of motivation and passion for this game because of my TvZ Me too heh. One step forward, two steps back At the top of the ladder it gets to almost 65-80% Zerg.There are no viable 2 base allins vs Zerg. Forgg's build is blah and relies 100% on the Zerg being lazy and not scouting, cause once Zerg scouts an allin they will just overrun you easily. On Cloud Kingdom you can do some stuff, like a bio/2 fact blue flame allin, and pray they don't roach, but that's about it. Mech can work, though it's becoming harder and harder because you can't always know what he's doing but you have to adjust your timings of pushes/expos based on this nonexistent knowledge. I don't like mech but it's a lot easier to play than bio/tank, but both of them are brutally unforgiving and require you to never mess up (you are allowed maybe one major error to his 3 or 4). If you are losing motivation but still want to play, I suggest you play as Zerg for awhile. It's really fun cause you know if you ever lose its 100% your fault and you get to see how it feels from the Zerg side. As Zerg favored as the matchup is, there are some things that can be really frustrating for Zergs to deal with it and it makes a world of difference to feel it. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On October 31 2012 09:50 Ver wrote: I don't think reapers have been good for a long time; they are predictable on non taldarim maps and everyone knows how to defend it now. Probably the most stable and one of the safest TvT builds is gas rax banshee expand. However, you can't always be aggressive as generally you need to keep the banshee at home to hold off elevators. A slightly older variant is thestc's build where you make 3 hellions before cc if they rax expo, then when you send the banshee into their main you run. There should be a replay of him vs drewbie on Daybreak from the first MLG Arena. A newer version is Fantasy's build which I outlined above (utillized against major and kawaiirice in MvP, maybe in one of his proleague tvt's not sure). Thanks, I use a Banshee opening in my TvP and I'm quite comfortable with it so I'll try that out in TvT. One quick question though, why gas first? It would seem to make it obvious for my opponent that I am going Banshee whereas 12rax, 13 gas would leave some ambiguity. | ||
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Wicek
Poland8 Posts
Is going for fast third an option here? Delay medivacs to catch up on upgrades? I know it is a bit detailed situation, but would like to know what to do next time I face it on ladder. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
On November 06 2012 05:39 Wicek wrote: In TvT matchup I use Thorzains build (Day9 daily #394). Question is, what is the correct/proper response to scouting CC first into bio/tank play. When it is 10 minutes, opponent is on more SCVs, similar amount of marines, medivacs popping out at same time. Difference is that he is on +1 +1 upgrades for bio, while my +1 attack is not finished. Then the game goes into expanding, but I can not approach my opponent when he has better upgrades and defenders advantage. Losing marines vs marines fight can really turn into snowball effect. Is going for fast third an option here? Delay medivacs to catch up on upgrades? I know it is a bit detailed situation, but would like to know what to do next time I face it on ladder. If you want to stick religiously to mass marine opening, go 1 rax double FE in response | ||
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